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Subaru Crew Cafe

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Comments

  • storytellerstoryteller Posts: 476
    Does anyone know, based on past performance, how long it might take the 03 Forester to come down to "normal" prices? I wouldn't expect ADMs like some cars get, but I also wouldn't expect any discouting for maybe 6 months or so. I'm starting to wonder if I can wait. There's a red 02 Forester 4-speed in town with 5,000 miles on it. Low mile Foresters are really rare around here.
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    Check me on this but isn't he the guy Prodrive just recently let wring out a WRC Impreza? It'd seem he'd have his likeness plastered to a Subaru, then.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I heard $19995, something like that, basically $20 grand. I'm sure Honda isn't making much profit on those. The Insight, maybe, but I'd be shocked if they break even on the Civic hybrid.

    Dave: was that a custom Taurus wagon with the SHO engine? We actually saw one of those at the SCOA covered bridge tour, it was pretty cool.

    The XC90's back seat doesn't look very roomy. I peeked at it in one of those photos.

    The Aerio is so tall and short that it ends up looking a little dorky. I'm not sure guys that motocross are gonna fall for that shape.

    I don't like that BMW concept. In fact, I haven't liked anything they've shown for a while. It looks like a Kia or a Suzuki, not a BMW. They fell into the creased lines trend. At least it's not as ugly as the 7 series.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Steve: welcome to our hottest thread. Glad you made it after hearing about it in the chat.

    My educated guess is that pricing will start at 1-2% over invoice right off the bat. That's only $200 to $400 or so. Those prices will hold up for a few months, and we'll gradually get down to right around invoice.

    I would wait. They are adding content, and I bet the actual invoice price is no more than $400 or so higher than the 2002. Unless you are already stretching your budget, that is.

    Travis is the MotoX guy that jumped over the SX concept for Suzuki. Are you thinking of Ramana Lageman, the Sri Lankan who took over the Group N car for Karl Schieble?

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    See for yourself at http://www.swrt.com/images/gallery/large/42.jpg


    He jumped over it, too.

    Ed

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I guess he'll put his name on whatever if you pay him enough.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    that there appears to be a tube of some sort hanging from the front passenger side of that picture Ed just linked? Kind of looks like it coming from the wheel area.

    -Brian
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    that new BMW convertible, that may be positioned under the 3-Series? If so, that's one that I really do like the styling. I find the subtle curves and creases to be superbly executed. They remind me somewhat of the beauty I find in sand dunes and drifting snow.

    << I don't like that BMW concept. In fact, I haven't liked anything they've shown for a while. It looks like a Kia or a Suzuki, not a BMW. They fell into the creased lines trend. >>
  • hypovhypov Posts: 3,068
    juice-
    :D No, it was a plain (no frills) beat up "family" wagon with a "next to reckless" driver in it. If you can visualize the plate "2FAZZ4U" on that wagon doing about 40mph (thinking it's going 70mph) on a 30mph flowing traffic . I thought it was funny. :D

    -Dave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, that's the one I'm talking about. It looks so "me too", though. There is zero family resemblance, it does not look like a Bimmer. Until you see the badge, it's Kia, Suzuki, Seat, maybe, but not BMW.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I see BMW all over it. From the front, there's no mistaking it for anything but a BMW.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yes, it has the twin kidney grille, but what about the profile? The rear? Nothing about the shape says it's BMW. Slapping on a twin kidney grille isn't enough IMO.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I see a lot of the current 3-Series convertible in it, from most if not all angles. Regardless, it pushes all the right buttons for me.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I guess I don't like the crease at the top corner of the body around towards the back. It reminds me of several other makes, just not BMW.

    By itself, I don't think it's ugly. It would make a really cute Suzuki. I just imagine Bimmers would have more substance. I guess this is their sub-compact, so maybe they want for it to feel playful.

    But I say the Mini already does that job.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    << I guess I don't like the crease at the top corner of the body around towards the back. It reminds me of several other makes, just not BMW >>

    That's one of the styling elements I like the most about it, that sculpted crease.

    I'm happy to see BMW considering a smaller line of cars. I dearly remember the beloved old 2002 model of the early '70s, which is what the 3-Series evolved into. Back then the 2002 was an "affordable.," and among the first small sports sedans. In a very real sense, the WRX is sort a modern-day BMW 2002.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Maybe the reaction to the 7 series was so bad, that they changed their styling direction? Still, it's rare to see the cheapest model lead the way for design changes.

    Everyone is doing creases. Soap bar shapes are out. Ford calls it New Edge, GM calls it Art & Science, but in the end they all mean creased edges around rounded panels.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Creases are nothing new to Cadillac. If you look back at many of their cars, dating back to the 1950s, you will find sharp creases, especially running down the center of the hood and rear deck. In fact, I consider "creases" to Cadillac styling, as I do "portholes" to Buick. It's just with the latest generation Cadillac styling, they've taken "creases: to a new extreme.

    As to everyone doing it, yeah that's probably true; yet some do it better than others. But again, the "crease" has been a feature of automotive styling since virtually day one. There just seems to be more focus on it now.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The trend cycles, from boxy to round, and back. I think stylists don't want to be categorized as round or boxy, so they came up with these creases as something inbetween.

    -juice
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    LOL on the "optional" doors on the Forester. Actually, Subaru has such a hit with the gigantic sunroof that they implemented the idea all around the vehicle this time. Wait till ya see what they did with the cupholders! ;-)

    Hey, so the Cafe now gets a lot of traffic, but the topics are pretty similar to what we used to post over in "Meet the Members". What's the purpose of having "Meet the Members" anymore?

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Really? Can it fit a Big Gulp now?

    You guys recall the Camaro ads with the Big Gulps, and the class rock music? Those were pretty funny.

    Ken: this topic is for all the off topic banter, and that's means lots of stuff with us. MTM is about Subarus and their owners, this covers a broader topic range.

    -juice
  • storytellerstoryteller Posts: 476
    Yes, styling goes through cycles of a sort, but I think I'm seeing something new. Many new cars seem "industrial" or "mechanistic" to me now, as if the designers deliberately wanted them to look like machines and not something organic. The Element and CTS are just two examples of cars that flaunt a hard-edged look that doesn't so much resemble a machine as maybe a part of a machine. For the opposite extreme, consider the old Jag XKE which was sleek and organic and looked like a living thing.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I think "Meet the Members" is targeted more for Subaru-related topics. Here in the "Cafe," anything's fair game.

    BTW, notice how all the traffic in the other Subaru forums has died down, now that only "Subaru issues" are to be discussed? That either means that there is little new "news" about Subies, or there are few "items/problems" that need to be addressed. I think both are true.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    CTS does look original. The shapes aren't really rounded. It's boxy and proud. I like it, it's really growing on me.

    Future models was always the hot topic, because we talk about every type of car, not just Subarus (1% market share, remember). Now that we talk about that stuff here, this is the hot topic.

    I expect that when the 2003 Legacy is finally shown, Future Models will get busy again.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4767&sid=173&n=156

    First pic I've seen. It's a total GMC Envoy clone, nothing at all original about it. It gets the XL wheelbase, 275hp GM I6, optional 285hp V8.

    But - nothing you can't get from GM in a TrailBlazer XL. Pure badge engineering. The only appeal is the 10/120 warranty.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Were you aware that the extended wheelbase TrailBlazer, Envoy, and now the Ascender too, all have a wheelbase 1" less than a full-size Suburban? That is nuts!

    GM has to add a full 16" in both wheelbase and length, in order to add the third row seating. The Explorer, Mountaineer and Aviator are all able to get fold-down third row seating in the same wheelbase as the standard-length TrailBlazer. You can thank the IRS that the Explorer, etc., for this much better, and much more efficient packaging.

    At 129" for the wheelbase, the breakover angle on the Ascender, et al, must be miserable. The turning circle must be Suburban-like too.

    I mean really, if I were considering a vehicle with a 129" wheelbase, I'd opt for the 130" wheelbase Suburban, and get the real thing. Even the full-size '03 Expedition only has a wheelbase of 119," and it has fold-down rear seats too. The full-size 3-seat Tahoe has a wheelbase of 115." GM really blew it on this one.

    I also agree with that link, in that this new Ascender will be the final nail in Isuzu's coffin.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, Bob, that is wild.

    I wonder if the 3rd row seat will have more leg room than the Explorer? I remember the Rendezvous was sort of tight, but the Explorer was adequate. The Pilot may set the standard for space utilization, though, it looks huge.

    Ascendor is going to be a porker. Best to get the V8 to handle all that weight.

    Styling copied GMC almost exactly. I'm shocked Isuzu didn't do something to differentiate it. Or GM didn't let them. Pity.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The more I think about it, the less sense it makes. People want car-like, so they drop TOD AWD? Give it a prohibitively long wheelbase and curb weight? A gas guzzling engine by GM that they'll have to fix for 120k miles?

    The short TrailBlazer has a nice engine and plenty going for it, but GM is ensuring the death of Isuzu by only offering the most truck-like entry in the segment, and to top it off it won't even be good off road! *gasp*

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    http://www.isuzu.com/

    It took forever to load, and I gave up. Does it have the same 4WD as the Envoy and TrailBlazer?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Clone, clone, clone. Looks EXACTLY like the GMC. Nothing visibly differentiating. It's a carbon copy of the GMC front, with a Durango looking rear quarter (same as TrailBlazer XL). The interior is pure GM. The engine even has a Vortec stamp on it.

    The V8 is from the GM pickups. Auto has just 4 speeds. On-demand 4WD? Is that TOD? I bet it isn't.

    Have to say something nice - turn signals in side mirrros are neat.

    So GM is basically just using Isuzu dealers to sell identical GM trucks?

    -juice
  • I get these panic attacks. I begin to think that GM and Ford will buy up the world's auto makers just to turn all cars in the the dreck that they produce. They can't win by making a better car so they'll win by pulling everyone down to their level. As a Subaru enthusiast, this really bothers me. I suppose Daimler-Chryler could be put into the same pot -- the seed of rot jumps from Chrysler to Daimler.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    5.3l V8 is available as an option, only in the Isuzu, not the Chevy or GMC, so that in-itself is good, boosts towing to 7800lbs.

    Other than that it gets the 10/120 warranty and 3/50K BtoB

    That V8 specific engine may win over a lot of the people who don't want to jump up to a full-sized truck but still want 3 rows of seats.

    4wd is the crappy one from the GMs.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    GO TERPS!!

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    is more full-size than a Tahoe or Expedition, if you consider the wheelbase of those vehicles.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    But I'll see the ASSender on wed @ the NY auto-show. I was just going on perception. I could live with the Ascendor if:

    o It was produced at SIA or Isuzu in Japan
    o It had up-right seating like the Full-size vehicles and the Trooper
    o Decent sized OEM moonroof
    o TOD or similar "advanded" 4wd system rather than the same old garbage

    The bumpers and ground clearance can be fixed (bumpers cause the worst angles of approach/departure of any SUV in class)

    -mike
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,785
    We will be 'moving out' of a super 2 bedroom condo we rented for a week in Williamsburg tomorrow morning, and beginning the trek home. It is a "time share" unit in one of Sunterra Corps vacation resorts. So of course, we went to the dreaded 'sales pitch' to get the free tickets to Bush Gardens!

    But I have to admit that I am intrigued by the concept. Are any of you owners (or know someone who is) in a vacation/trade program, on either a 'weeks' or 'points' basis???

    Steve
  • kmartedkmarted Posts: 2
    I am about to make my decision on which Outback wagon to buy- one with the 4-cylinder engine or a 6-cylinder LLBean. The dealer I am working with has offered extremely good prices on each of these models. I'd like to hear the opinion of those that have the 4 cylinder- are you satisfied with it or do you wish you had the 6 cylinder? Also, for those of you that have the 6 cylinder- are you glad you spent to extra $$, or in retrospect is this a bit of overkill?

    I do most of my driving on city streets and highways around Atlanta. Occasionally I'll head up to the hills of N. Georgia, N. Carolina, or Tennesee. I might be hauling another passenger, some mountain bikes, and/or climbing and camping gear.

    Thanks in advance for any information and thoughts.
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    The four cylinder engine is fairly peppy when mated to a 5-speed manual transmission. While you do need to work the RPM band a bit, it should suffice for most of your OB driving needs.

    If you are looking for a 4-speed auto, then the H6 will be a better match. Also, if you plan on towing, the H6 and auto is obviously a better match too.

    Have you driven both? In general, the H6 will be smoother and quieter. If you can afford the extra $$ and don't want a 5-speed, then the LL Bean is a great buy.

    Ken
  • twrxtwrx Posts: 647
    How can I resist being from Newburgh IN.

    TWRX
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    (scratching head wondering why this topic isn't in MTM...)

    drive a H4 AT too and judge for yourself. ;)

    while I agree that a 5sp MT or perhaps a 5sp AT would be better in the H4, the 4EAT does just fine for us in our '00 OB. you also have to take into consideration the 50/50 split for the MT and 80/20 split for the AT. one is reactive, the other proactive. one has a vc, the other multiplate clutch.... etc., etc., etc.

    try to drive what you're comfortable with. take any of the models for an extended test drive and get a feel for how each uses the available power.

    -Brian
    (taking cover as I re-read this and see that I almost sounded like the WRX AT thread... ;)
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Well I just drove my dad's '97 Legacy with 80K miles, 2.2l H4 AT in auto-x and finished 44/136 and 2nd in my class of 6 cars. So the AT can't be that bad! :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    A few weeks ago, while goofing around in Photoshop, I created a Jeep Liberty pickup. I sent the image to a Jeep site I visit, and Mike (the site master) and I agreed this would be great to use as an April Fools posting on his site. So we combined to come up with a press release to go with the image.

    The image just went up, so at the moment there are no responses to it. However, be forewarned: Most people who visit this site are hardcore Jeepers who hate the Liberty, so I don't expect favorable responses. Still, it should be fun...

    Bob

    http://www.onetomany.com/jeepnews/indexnoflash.htm
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    More Japanese trucks acomin'...

    http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38839<

    Blackwood, not one of Ford's "Better Ideas," to die. (Can't get link to work! Argh!)

    http://www.autonews.com/

    Subaru hopes to increase sales to 250,000 by 2005; an increase of 34% as compared to 2001. (Can't get link to work! Argh, again!)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Assender, LOL!

    I really was hoping Isuzu would use just the GM platform, and come up with their own interior and exterior. GM engines are OK, but why not the Ward's 10 Best Duramax built by Isuzu? (just noticed that on Bob's link)

    I'd still prefer to have it built at SIA. The final product is not an Isuzu in any way, shape, or form. Isuzu dealers have just become another GMC outlet for sales.

    How 'bout them Terps! Beat the Hoosiers! Though I'm sure SIA employees want Indy.

    I think the 2.5l is more than adequate, and that the 3.0l is more about smoothness and luxury feel than it is about brute power. Still, I wish the H6 was available on several other models, and with a manual tranny.

    Pretty funny, Bob. It actually doesn't look like a bad idea. If DCX makes one you should ask for a reward.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Blackwood was dumb. 2WD only? No mid-gate? All for MORE money than GM's far superior design?

    GM gave theirs a midgate, more power, and 4WD. For less money. Guess which succeeded?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Yeah, but it doesn't look like we fooled anyone. At the moment there are three responses, all very positive, which I'm surprised, considering most people who visit that site absolutely hate the Liberty.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, but nothing beats seeing it in person. :-)

    -juice
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