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So here's the story:
Had my day with Infiniti Customer Service today. There is nothing wrong with the paint on the car. As a courtesy, they will paint the car. No other consideration and no warranty on the new paint job. No buy back, no residual value reduction for diminished value, (for painting a new car). The field rep is the decision maker and I am not permitted to speak to the field rep. The dealer doesn’t support any other action and there is no appeal process. (Oddly it was the dealer that suggested I take it to the next level and stated they didn’t think the offer was fair.)
Probably most interesting was a comment by Customer Service that if I wasn’t satisfied with the solution, I should seek another dealer to see if I could get better treatment. I can’t explain that comment.
I had the car examined myself by a quality shop in the area. He used a device to measure the thickness of the paint; and a magnifier to examine the paint and chips. No dumbbell, he looked at the windshield very closely before he ever looked at the paint. Clever.
The paint is “delam” he calls it; I take it this is paint talk for delaminating. He also found a raised dimple on the hood and suspects a solvent problem, (not definite on that however at this time.) He described what an impact chip looks like under the magnifier as well as a scratch. That’s not what I have he pointed out. The paint is not adhering to the sealer. I looked into the magnifier myself and could see exactly what he was talking about. The paint is peeling back around the edges of the chip. It’s coming loose or is not properly bonded to the seal coat so that when something hits the finish the paint just flakes off. The paint thickness is not the issue. The reason is not known but he suspects that they did not paint the car within the appropriate window of time once the sealer coat was applied. For instance if the line was stopped and the car sat for a while before the line was restarted. He says the sealer must be treated again before paint can be applied but he was unspecific about how that’s done. Of course the reason the paint has not bonded is unknown and whether the line stopped during the painting process is speculation. As for the raised dimple, he wants to check it again for solvent. If there is solvent under the paint, it will just pop off of its own accord; without provocation by flying debris.
He says he will put this in writing and urges me to start the paper trail by contacting the Better Business Bureau and the State Attorney Generals Office. I have not shared this with the Executive Manager at the Dealership but I will tomorrow. I can’t wait to hear what he has to say about seeking another dealership.
Jim,
Would like to know what you’ve found out.
Roll
Is there a lemon law in your state?
Today, I saw a scratch on the driver passenger side. I have an uncoventional way of painting, then wiping, then sanding, then painting over again. Seemed to have the best gradient, without showing the amateur paint job. After the first quick spray, I pushed the cloth left to right and all the paint, not just the paint that I just sprayed, came off! It was clearly not white under there.
I just went into fix it mode, and looking back, I'm not so sure if that was the right thing to do. But I sprayed some coats to try to alleviate the situation. I'm hoping that this is not used against me.
I called my dealership, and they said not to even make an appointment, and just show up between 8 and 4. I am planning to show the rust show throughs, all start as dots, that I'm afraid will grow as the roof one did, the Paintscratch Paint that I use for touch up, and of course, the stripped paint on the door.
I'm watching this thread, and will post an update. Any advice for me will be greatly appreciated.
You may remember that in our last episode I sought the opinion of a qualified paint guy in the community. He examined the car and paint carefully and stated I had a delamination problem stemming from a failure of the paint to bond to the sealer during the manufacturing process. He’s certain of this. Infiniti maintains there is nothing wrong with the paint but has offered to paint the car as a goodwill effort; they will do nothing else however and won’t warranty the new paint or consider the loss in value to the car.
Today following a conversation with the dealer, he sent me the estimate for painting my car. I was a little more than surprised to see the whole car could be painted for $2400. So, in my annoying way, I called the shop to see just what they intended to do, (since I was hearing a total repaint was going to be closer to $6000 or more; my guy says the car has to be stripped and wants something in the range of $12,000).
I called and asked about a repaint; the owner asked what model; I said Infiniti; he said, “Is this the red 2005 Coupe with the spots?” That was startling. I said yes and he exclaimed “that car has a problem”. You mean the paint flaking off? I asked, well not exactly he said. Paint peeling? I tried. Well depends on how you define peeling he said. Okay, try this I responded, The paint has not bonded to the sealer and is coming off”. “Exactly” he stated.
Unbelievable. He was really surprised Infiniti has taken the position there is nothing wrong with the car.
So there you go, the shop Infiniti has sent me to for a repaint agrees there is a defect in the paint, that this will continue to be a problem and, (these are his words not mine) “painting a new car will mean a huge hit in the value of the car”. He also agrees the car probably should not be painted. Unless it’s stripped, painting is only a Band-Aid for the underlying problem.
I reported back to the dealership who says they will take this up with Infiniti on my behalf. We’ll see; I made it clear I don’t want the car, painted or otherwise. By the way, the dealer was unhappy that Infiniti had suggested (twice) that I go to another dealer if I didn’t like the offer.
Sorry for the long post, it’s therapeutic for me even if boring for you. :P
Roll
Boring? Are you nuts?
Scary, enlightening, frustrating... but not boring.
The second I read your previous post on the top-coats releasing, I just shuddered. There's no way any painting is going to accomplish spit; you're dead right on that.
I'm now firmly in the "replacement" camp, Roll. And stick to your guns.
[I just have to add, though, per my previous post, the point about a "huge hit" in value on a new car is very much valid, but only so long as the car is new. Still doesn't amount to much way downstream, for a normal situation, which this is not!]
Give 'em hell, Roll.
You might want to have an independent shop look at the paint for you before the rep sees it. If I had done that I would have been better prepared. Also, if I had it to do over again, I would be there waiting for the rep and participate in the inspection.
Good luck. :-)
Roll
My painter even drew a diagram of a paint chip, labeled the layers and explained the problem. The estimate to strip the car, glass and all, and repaint was in the mid $8Ks.
Now I'm waiting, waiting, waiting.
Roll
Oh, key item, the request is for Infiniti to replace the car.
Sorry to be so quiet but no news to report. We've heard nothing from Infiniti since my wife dropped of the car on 03/17. If no call today, she will initiate contact tomorrow.
Roll,
Some very interesting twists and turns in your story, your persistence seems to be bearing fruit. If I get in a tight on this end, would you be willing to share your painter's opinion with me off-line? Not to deny the group from any information, but to protect any/all from damaging a potential case.
Thanks,
Jim
I come in and he had difficulty trying to get the images. What he noticed were the red, orange dots througout the car. These dots, I informed him, starts out very small, almost pin like, and gets deeper and bigger, to where it eats the paint. They are sporadic througout the car, and most apparent in the rear bumper, at least 30 plus. I showed six separate dots, from varying degrees, throughout the car. My concern, of course, was the possible mess in the future. I told him that paint chips, I understand, but if these things keep up, I will have a very rusty automobile in a years time.
He went ahead and called the service manager, and the service manager looked at the dots, and the rusty ones that came as a result of it. Both mentioned, that since I touched up the first 2 deep scars, there is really not much that can happen with that, and that they are looking for basically a new one to assess the situation. Service manager then informs me that it seems that the problem is coming from the surface in, not from the paint itself. He mentions that it is iron in the water, and because of it, it seems to eat the paint. Could be that the water splashed the car, and that's why its sporadic throughout the car, and that's why there is so much on the bumper, where the water can tend to collect. It is a common thing with cars, and since yours is white, it is more apparent.
My questions were:
- Are you saying that Infiniti cars are prone to this, or that my own personal vehicle is?
- Are you saying that my other vehicle, happens to be white as well, should exhibit this behavior?
- Are you saying that this iron water splashed every area of the car left and right, front and back, and that it stayed on the car long enough to have this affect, even after multiple car washes?
I said that I'm sure that you can understand my reluctance to believe you, since this is the only vehicle that I have that exhibits this behavior.
He suggested to have his service guys check the car, and see what they think. When they returned, they concurred with the Service Manager, that yes, it is environmental, and it is common in our area. They mentioned that they can clay the car, wet sand it, retouch the major paint that I retouched, rebuff, and after 4 weeks of letting the car bake (I think that was the term), return the car for a final buff/touch up. This will even out the buff, provide more protection, take away any residual iron......for $200.
I didnt buy the iron in the water, but I'm willing to be wrong. This procedure, at the very least, I thought can reveal whether the car will have more issues or not. I am more than happy to have a non-defective car. But if it is defective, then certainly, the best person to mess with the paint at this time will be the dealer. I went ahead and scheduled the appointment.
Will continue to update.
Any advice is appreciated.
If it's something regional they would know; probably have seen other cars with the same problem.
Roll
I was hot for the red, but after reading the last few posts maybe not.
We have a decision from Infiniti: they are going to buy back the car!
The problem identified by the field engineer is a bad clear coat - it has significant variances in thickness over the entire vehicle.
They indicate the deal will take a couple of weeks to finalize. For the interim, we will return the service dept. loaner early this week and be provided with a demo until all is complete.
The decision now in front of us are what to replace it with. We always do a lot of research and never rush, this was the ideal car for my wife for emotional and practical reasons. Nissan has always been a favorite: I have a 1st year 240Z bought new (now in pieces for resto), we just sold a '96 Maxima SE, 80K miles (bought new) for 133% of Kelly Blue Book.
Will keep the saga updated as new information is available.
Jim
Jeff-
By the way, don't pay $200 for aftermarket sensors the Infiniti Dealer will sell you the OE sensors for $99 each.
Not sure where that puts me, since we didn't focus on the paint thickness but the delaminating issue.
I still don't have a response but I'm waiting hopefully for a proper offer from Infiniti.
I would like another Red and am wondering if that's wise.
Roll
The fourm moderator has asked everyone share experiences and so I have complied. I think if you read the thread on the paint issues from some of the members you'll see what's been done regarding presenting your case. Yellowcar is the only one with a resolution so far that I am aware of. The rest of us are waiting.
What have you seen on other boards regarding paint problems and do you care to provide links?
Roll
Dave
As a result of the appeal (such as it was), and in looking over the two painters opinions (theirs and mine both said the same thing), Consumer Affairs or Customer Service or whatever Infiniti calls their customer complaints group, is reopening my case. Not sure just what that means but the dealer says it's a good thing. He thinks an offer is forthcoming but he's not sure just what it will be. I should know within 48 hours he says. He seems cheerful and leads me to believe they are going to take care of this. He knows I want out of the car and......that I want another Coupe. He made an interesting comment today about my support of the dealership over the last three years; that having all my work done at the dealership meant something to them and to Infiniti. It was important he said. With that in mind I remain optimistic.
Roll
Roll
Saw your previous post about progress on your problems, looks like you are getting some attention from the Infiniti organization. You comments about the value of your dealer relationship are right on target. This issue has the potential to make or break any situation, especially when you are looking at a significant warranty item.
On our case, we have been very well served by our dealer. We truly were fortunate that the regional service manager was on-site when my wife initially took the car in. His experience and initial evaluation accelerated the inspection by the field engineer. They truly listened to my wife when she said a re-paint of any kind would ultimately be found lacking in quality. The dealer has pressed Infiniti Consumer Affairs for a quick resolution in our favor.
The car is being re-purchased under terms of the Texas Lemon Law. The full contract price is being refunded including taxes, registration, fees, ...etc. Everything!!!We are being charged a small usage fee of $440, about $0.30 per mile, this is provided for in the lemon law. We cannot recover the finance charges incurred on our loan. We expect the deal to finalize this week.
A decision has been reached on a the replacement car: a Lexus IS250, to be purchased from the Lexus arm of our Infiniti dealer. We will stay with the people who have been good to us.
Keep your posts coming, we are all interested in the outcome of your situation.
Regards,
Jim
I do think my relationship with the dealer was a key element in their decision.
Roll
BigAirNut :lemon: !
So... whatcha gonna get now??
Our car has a 08/2006 build date. It is red but we are told the color is not the issue, just that a paint flaw is more easily detected on a strong color.
I want another Coupe (2006). I'm struggling over the color. Would like another red but once burned........ Black is pretty but too much work for a daily driver.
Thinking white or blue with tan interior.
Words of caution we received from our dealer:
"We cannot guarantee you will not see this problem on another car. There can be only one buyback!".
Jim
I'm looking to get a 2003 g35 coupe. I was considering leasing an 06, but have decided to go the pre-owned route. I have driven automatics my whole life (23 years old), but have decided to look for a manual transmission. I have heard that the automatic has a 5 speed shifter, and according to the articles on edmunds.com, that it works really well. Considering I've never had a manual, will the 5 speed shifter give me all the "fun" of the manual, without the clutch. Is it something that I should look at. Those who have the automatic, how has the shifter worked for you? Thanks.
Purists may not like the automatic, but I am over that stage of my life.