I also purchased other accessories (body side moulding, roof rail and running boards at dealer price. I think I should have bargained for the accessories too.
JBaumgart - I didn't have to negotiate hard. I wasn't going to. I informed the dealers exactly what I was going to do. (It was half-yearly mark + end of month last week which helped).
cvista, I knew all along which was the better car. In Califronia, the Acura's go for 1K-1.5K over invoice and I was about to put out 51K when I started my process of searching for the right auto back in March. Your so right, the Acura is in fact the better way to go. I just had to give any other car a shot to entertain me. Glad I chose the Acura.
Love the forums here...great info. Just walked out with a Nimbus Grey / Ebony Tech & Ent. package with side moldings, moonroof visor, mats, cargo cover and sport running boards for $46K total. Got the invoice price so it's definitely doable if you push hard enough.
Purchased MDX Tech on Saturday in Atlanta-area. Paid invoice plus $495 doc fee, $42 for tag, title, inspection fee and tax. Also, added sport running boards and roof rails. I'm sure it helped that Saturday was end of month and end of half-year; however, I'm positive vehicle can be purchased at invoice if the one you want is in stock. Just have to call around and tell dealer what you are willing to pay.
This forum has been a goldmine of information--such helpful posts. Looking for tips on buying an Acura MDX base model, no packages, would like running boards but not willing to pay too much for them. Just wanted to know if anyone had any experience with Peninsula area dealers re: pricing over invoice, holdbacks, etc. Thanks!
The APR special goes into effect 7/6, applies to 2007 MDX, TSX, TL & RDX. 2.9% for 24-36 months, 4.9 for 48 months. Must take delivery on/after 7/6 to secure this rate.
I believe the apr applies to both purchase or loans. I am looking to buy, negotiated the price and am they are going to submit the credit application Friday so I can take advantage of the offer. As per the salesperson I spoke to, the 2008 RDX, TSX and TL are expected out within the next few weeks, they are not expecting 2008 MDX until late September. Since the 07 is a first year car changes are likely to be minimal. At this point, between the low financing rate and the fact that you can get these cars at invoice and negotiate on the extras I see no drawbacks to buying now. One thing to consider when shopping the lot is that only cars produced after May receive the highest rating regarding rear crash safety from the IIHS - see http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?acura. Evidently they modified the head restraints on cars produced from June on.
I would doubt 08 MDX won't be there until late September. If that's the case why would they start offering promotions on MDX now.
The sales guy will tell you anything to sell you an MDX now. MDX has been selling for invoice for more than 4 months already. 07 MDX is worth at least $2000 less than 08 MDX with same mileage when it comes to resale.
I'm in the ATL area and also looking to purchase an 07 MDX Tech w/ Rear Entertainment. I haven't been able to find invoice pricing yet - may I ask who you found? Will save me some time.
I have no intention of waiting for a 2008 - the deal now is too good. I have purchased multiple cars previously from the salesperson who showed me the memo yesterday - the rate actually applies to all new 2007/2008 models. If you check Edmunds, the 2008 TSX info is posted already which lends credence to his contention that their release is imminent. It is highly unlikely that you could cut the same deal on a 2007 that you could on a 2007, furthermore, if I wait for an 2008 the financing offer will likely be over.
I Gave in and purchased 07 MDX tech/RES pkg. and will be picking up this Saturday(7-7-2007***) I have nego within $300 over invoice, over the phone. So I thought(Arm with invoice pricing and last minute APR promotion) I cannot loose until wife turn on me. Dealer will not lower pricing because of new promotional APR. I try but wife got tired and wanted the end this game. She turn to "dark side" and twist my arm to take the dealer offer price. Then my "Yes Dear" mode kick in and made the deposit. I will post detail pricing for your comments. New pormotional APR is not necessary good for consumers. In my case, it become new weapon for Dealers. I am at Southern Cal. near LA/OC area
Has anyone been able to get close to invoice price for an MDX Tech in Houston? I'm doing my first round of quotes right now, and the lowest I've gotten so far is $1,500 over invoice.
Finally... a question for folks in Houston! I'm a new 'poster' but have found this website extremely beneficial since being introduced to it a few weeks ago.
Hope I'll be able to share some knowledge... Based on some initial research I've done, the short answer is YES - you can find prices closer to invoice (but, unfortunately, not as close as some of the folks on the East & West Coast or even in Atlanta).
Last week, after hours of negotiation over the phone and in person, I was able to negotiate $800 above invoice with at least three out of the four dealers in Houston. I believe the issue is that MDXs are still quite hot in Houston and these dealers are selling them easily for $1500 - $2000 over invoice; my assumption is that people are buying them up and not putting up much of a fight.
Now, if you wait towards the middle or end of the month, they might be willing to entertain $1000 over invoice. Here's my take on the 4 Houston dealerships I've dealt with, in no particular order:
- Champion Acura: Was the only dealer that took a chance and started their quote at $1000 over invoice (call and talk to their internet sales guy)... the other dealers were scared to set a price but were willing to beat Champion's offer by $100 here and there).
- Gillman Acura: Was the toughest to deal with as they stood firm and were not willing to budget below $1500. Their internet guy seemed a bit lazy as well. He wasn't responsive and really didn't appear very interested in selling a car.
- Sterling McCall Acura: Was willing to offer $1500 over invoice and didn't budge until I shared with them what the other offers were. However, their customer service was very professional and they were very courteous.
- John Eagle Acura: Offered $1200 over invoice initially. Really wanted my business and offered to match or beat any other offer... their head manager called me up directly and was enthusiastic about selling me a car at a fair price. Later worked their way down closer to invoice to be competitive. Only dealer in Houston who's willing to offer 4 years worth of oil changes and car washes as part of the sale.
Hope that helps... with the new APR specials starting today and the fact that the 2008 model is coming out in October, I think there's a strong chance that some of these dealers will be willing to go down to $500 - $700 over invoice in the next 2 months and even 'at invoice' starting in September.
If anyone is able to (or has been able to) beat that in the Houston, Austin or Dallas area, please post and share your experiences as well.
I got a quote from Goodson acura here in Dallas who quoted me a Tech/RES for 42,994. I do not know what the invoice is, i think its around 41K or something. They had earlier quoted me a price of 43,439 over the phone. I'm looking to lease the MDX, however the chappie on the phone wouldn't give me the MF or the residuals on a 36Mos/12K lease. so I guess tomorrow I have to do the dealer shuffle. will let you know how things go.
CARMAN,......could use your help here, if you know the MF and Residual for July, could you please let me know? thank you in advance.
I was just given .00280 and 58% for 15k and 39 mos. My salesperson said he has gotten nothing new for July yet and "hopes" something changes because the leases on both the MDX and RDX stink right now (considering end of model year).
with 2000 upfront, monthly payment of 700. (does that make sense?)
This is the first car that i'm leasing. since i've recently arrived in the country, and while my FICO is 720+, my credit file is very thin (I have deliberately only kept one card, with a low limit).
do you think this is a good deal? or does anyone know of a better deal in Dallas? please do let me know, CAR MAN or anyone else, i'm looking to purchase immediately.
This is a very good price. According to the consumer reports pricing report this is on $300 over the dealer price. Dealer price including hold backs is $41300.
fellow posters, i am new to this forum. i am in the market to purchase a 2007 acura mdx with tech + ent package. i would like to put some money down and finance the rest preferably for 5 yrs. what do you think is the best deal i can get? i would like to get a deal close to invoice as possible with low financing.
I don't know how far you are from Arlington Acura in Palatine, IL. Acura 2008 will be coming out in late August. You should be able to get your 2007 at invoice. Acura also has special financing available. The only bad thing about Arlington Acura was their over inflated accessory prices. Buy from www.hondaacuraworld.com and have the dealers install them for you.
I was just offered 07 MDX TECH for 41300, including side molding, tint, dimming rearview mirror, wheel locks,cargo net, and door guards. How does this sound???
I purchased the same vehicle from Acura of Peoria about 2 months ago for $41,500 it is a decent deal considering the extras. It is the best deal you will find in AZ. They were honest and processed the transaction quickly and were true to their word.
Beware of Scottsdale Acura. Scottsdale Acura lacks integrity and honesty. Personal integrity is more than honesty. Being honest is when your words represent reality. Integrity is when your actions are true to your words; when you "walk your talk". Your future rests on your integrity: good deeds and bad deeds follow you like your shadow. Your reputation often precedes you Having purchased several vehicles from Scottsdale Acura in the past, I was appalled at their tactics and lack of integrity.
Thank you for the break down, norisekips. And thanks to all the houston and dallas people who responded. With dealer quotes, does that include destination? I mean, if I'm trying to figure out how much above invoice they are quoting me, I need to take destination price out of the difference, right? And how much is tax in Texas?
The dealers have come down quite a bit with their 2nd round of quotes, but my target price for a Tech is $43,000 drive out. It might not be possible right now, but maybe by the end of the month, and definitely by the end of next month it will be do-able. What do you think? Have those of you getting Techs been getting close to that drive out price?
In the Bay area? East Bay? Oakland is not as agressive. The dealer in Concord and Pleasnton are of the same ownership. the Fairfield dealer is as good as any.. Typical pursuit is to have your infor and finance ready. In the 2 dealers of Concord and Pleasanton, you'll be able to secure a deal @ 500 over invoice, get you accesories at cost. Be careful about you info on what the true cost is however. The Fairfield internet dealer will get you to 300 over invoice without any effort plus he'll get you the accesoories @ cost. He was the one that emailed me the cost of the accesoories. That was great knowledge to have in my pocession. With my knowledge walking into the dealer, I walked out with:200 over invoice with side molding, roof rack ($532), Tow Pkg ($912), Sport running boards ($567). I went in with my email printed from the other dealer as proof of another deal.
I am in the market looking for 2007 Acura MDX Sport and entertainment package. I am located in PA and would like to know the best price quote. I am also looking to the invoice price for the accessories so that I can negotiate a deal. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
I just picked up my MDX. I have been posting for a few weeks but today I got it. Here are the details, from Acura of Turnersville, in NJ.
MSRP 46,365 Sale Price 41,455 4000 down cash no trade 4.9% 60 months First 5 oil chages free from Dealer, (I worked that one in there) ahahha Payment of 770 for 60 months. Purchase extended warranty (Acura Care) for 6 years 120,000 miles paid $1,410 cash for that.
Tell me how I did folks, I think i did pretty well, If anyone is in NJ philly area contact me and I will give names and details.
More than 500 below invoice, good finance APR, and no add-on accessaries at all - I think you did an excellent job. Tell us how hard you worked to get this deal, or it was fairly easy....
That is a great price. I am in NYC area but willing to travel to NJ/PA for such a great price. I have sent you email regarding name and detail. Thanks for sharing.
Machit I am not sure where you sent me the email, but the details are Acura of Turnersville, Salesman Ron O. and the Sales manager is Peter Z. Work with those two and youwill get a great deal, tell them what you wanna pay. I started at 42500 and then went to Elite Acura in Maple Shade NJ and had them give me a better price of 42000 then went back to Aura of Turnersville and worked the deal from there. Once they heard Elite Acura was beating them they gave me my deal and I worked in the free oil changes. If you need more info tell me. A side note for buyers in NJ and Philly area, Acura of Turnersville and Elite Acura in Maple Shade are in a bitter battle to sell cars. Sales managers from Elite Left to go to Turnersville, so it is a total compeition, they want buss and they are willing to go to invoice and better to get it, just have to work and know your numbers and details before you go in...Good Luck
Would you tell me what trim you have for this price? Is it with Tech and Entertainment package? Also, did your price incldue destination charge? Thanks.
destination is included in the price... so, $800 over invoice includes the destination fee. also, tax in Texas is 6.25%; there's also a separate .25% tax that is included.
$43K sounds quite low for right now in Houston but i'm sure it'll be possible 2 months from now; essentially, that's getting the car for invoice ($40,203) plus the $180 in additional fees.
Ocbuyer1 2007 MDX Tech/ent pkg. Nimbus gray/ebony interior $43,360 Include destination, f/r mud guards and wheel locks(no choice). Roof rail installed by dealer(no cross bars) and cargo net. I was aiming for $43,000 but missed the target because of 4.9% APR. Dealer: Wire Canyon Acura-detail will be e-mail to you
Finally took delivery of a Nimbus/Taupe Sport/Entertainment.
Long story, but I went to a local dealer Wed 6/27 with a "$200 under invoice" deal pre-negotiated (via email/phone) on an Aspen/Parchment Sport/Ent example (see my previous post within this thread). Turns out the Aspen/Parchment was sold between my negotiating with the dealer the Sunday prior and arriving on Wednesday. D'oh. In all fairness, I had been offered the opportunity to put a $500 refundable deposit on it but didn't ... my bad.
So, even though Nimbus/Taupe was last on my short list of acceptable color combos -- if only because we already have a Titanium Grey/Taupe XC90 -- the dealer sweetened the deal with another $300 off *and* I was able to negotiate "ebay pricing" on all the accessories I planned to order. No brainer at that point ... color choice be damned. ;-)
Since I was leaving for vacation with the family that Thursday, they kept the 'X to install accessories and I picked 'er up on the way back into Phoenix this past Sunday.
Excellent experience end-to-end, if a bit long the day I purchased (given I had a deal in writing before arrival).
Here's how my numbers break down.
Sticker:
$48,465 - MSRP (including Destination of $670) $1,465 - Dealer "Protection Package + Polymer stuff" (window tint, cargo mat, wheel locks, door edge protection, paint protection, etc) $49,930 - Final Price on window
My negotiated deal:
$43,495 - $500 under invoice (including Destination of $670) $164 - Roof rails (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $164 - Cross bars (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $420 - Sport running boards (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $412 - Wood steering wheel (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $220 - Auto dim mirror (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $179 - Body side molding (excl labor) - 25% discount from list $900 - Tow package (installed) - 10% discount from list $575 - Profit padding protection package described above - discounted over $900 (window tint, which I'd have done anyway, would have run around $250 anyway) $369 - Doc Fee (one dealer here charges $565 for doc!!) $5 - Tire disposal fee $3,900 - Taxes (can't remember exactly, but it was $4k-ish) $820 - Title & Plates
OTD price of $52k and change.
In the end, based on my deal using the Buyer's Offer Spreadsheet, the dealer earned 3% on the purchase price and 5% on the deal as a whole. Very reasonable IMO ... especially considering the 3% dealer holdback and 1% WFR make up most of that margin.
Comments
Sale Price: $42,682
Doc Fees: $169
Registration: $354
Taxes: $2987.74
Tire tax: $7.50
-----------------
Total: 46,200.24
-----------------
I also purchased other accessories (body side moulding, roof rail and running boards at dealer price. I think I should have bargained for the accessories too.
I knew all along which was the better car. In Califronia, the Acura's go for 1K-1.5K over invoice and I was about to put out 51K when I started my process of searching for the right auto back in March. Your so right, the Acura is in fact the better way to go. I just had to give any other car a shot to entertain me.
Glad I chose the Acura.
Thanks,
There may be APR promotion on 07 MDX soon. Starting next week. 2.99 for 3yr and 4.99 for 5.
is this information reliable?
I am going to dealer tomorrow and ask for 4.99% APR. base upon your posting. Can you post little more detail?
Where did you come up with that information?
Must take delivery on/after 7/6 to secure this rate.
Thank You for your prompt updated posting.
You have saved me alot of $$$$ and time
Thank you, thank you & thank you
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?acura. Evidently they modified the head restraints on cars produced from June on.
The sales guy will tell you anything to sell you an MDX now. MDX has been selling for invoice for more than 4 months already. 07 MDX is worth at least $2000 less than 08 MDX with same mileage when it comes to resale.
Why would you say it's too good a deal. I can get 4.7% APR for 60 months from my credit union all the time.
It's a good deal only if u can buy for $1000 under OR 1.9 for 3yrs or 2.9 for 5yrs.
I have nego within $300 over invoice, over the phone. So I thought(Arm with invoice pricing and last minute APR promotion) I cannot loose until wife turn on me. Dealer will not lower pricing because of new promotional APR.
I try but wife got tired and wanted the end this game.
She turn to "dark side" and twist my arm to take the dealer offer price.
Then my "Yes Dear" mode kick in and made the deposit.
I will post detail pricing for your comments. New pormotional APR is not necessary good for consumers. In my case, it become new weapon for Dealers. I am at Southern Cal. near LA/OC area
anyone hear a better deal please post!
Hope I'll be able to share some knowledge... Based on some initial research I've done, the short answer is YES - you can find prices closer to invoice (but, unfortunately, not as close as some of the folks on the East & West Coast or even in Atlanta).
Last week, after hours of negotiation over the phone and in person, I was able to negotiate $800 above invoice with at least three out of the four dealers in Houston. I believe the issue is that MDXs are still quite hot in Houston and these dealers are selling them easily for $1500 - $2000 over invoice; my assumption is that people are buying them up and not putting up much of a fight.
Now, if you wait towards the middle or end of the month, they might be willing to entertain $1000 over invoice. Here's my take on the 4 Houston dealerships I've dealt with, in no particular order:
- Champion Acura: Was the only dealer that took a chance and started their quote at $1000 over invoice (call and talk to their internet sales guy)... the other dealers were scared to set a price but were willing to beat Champion's offer by $100 here and there).
- Gillman Acura: Was the toughest to deal with as they stood firm and were not willing to budget below $1500. Their internet guy seemed a bit lazy as well. He wasn't responsive and really didn't appear very interested in selling a car.
- Sterling McCall Acura: Was willing to offer $1500 over invoice and didn't budge until I shared with them what the other offers were. However, their customer service was very professional and they were very courteous.
- John Eagle Acura: Offered $1200 over invoice initially. Really wanted my business and offered to match or beat any other offer... their head manager called me up directly and was enthusiastic about selling me a car at a fair price. Later worked their way down closer to invoice to be competitive. Only dealer in Houston who's willing to offer 4 years worth of oil changes and car washes as part of the sale.
Hope that helps... with the new APR specials starting today and the fact that the 2008 model is coming out in October, I think there's a strong chance that some of these dealers will be willing to go down to $500 - $700 over invoice in the next 2 months and even 'at invoice' starting in September.
If anyone is able to (or has been able to) beat that in the Houston, Austin or Dallas area, please post and share your experiences as well.
Cheers...
I'm looking to lease the MDX, however the chappie on the phone wouldn't give me the MF or the residuals on a 36Mos/12K lease. so I guess tomorrow I have to do the dealer shuffle. will let you know how things go.
CARMAN,......could use your help here, if you know the MF and Residual for July, could you please let me know? thank you in advance.
selling price (tech+ent): 42895..
36 mos/ 12K
Residual value: 55%
MF; .00300
5000 upfront, monthly payments of 639.
with 2000 upfront, monthly payment of 700. (does that make sense?)
This is the first car that i'm leasing. since i've recently arrived in the country, and while my FICO is 720+, my credit file is very thin (I have deliberately only kept one card, with a low limit).
do you think this is a good deal? or does anyone know of a better deal in Dallas? please do let me know, CAR MAN or anyone else, i'm looking to purchase immediately.
Sticker 46,365
Selling Price 41,700
4.9% 60 Months
4000 down
770 a month that is tax tags fees
tell me what you all think of this price???
Which city are you located in?
i am new to this forum. i am in the market to purchase a 2007 acura mdx with tech + ent package. i would like to put some money down and finance the rest preferably for 5 yrs. what do you think is the best deal i can get? i would like to get a deal close to invoice as possible with low financing.
thx in advance!
jay
skokie, IL
Good Luck.
Jay
4.9 up to 60 mos
Beware of Scottsdale Acura. Scottsdale Acura lacks integrity and honesty. Personal integrity is more than honesty. Being honest is when your words represent reality. Integrity is when your actions are true to your words; when you "walk your talk". Your future rests on your integrity: good deeds and bad deeds follow you like your shadow. Your reputation often precedes you Having purchased several vehicles from Scottsdale Acura in the past, I was appalled at their tactics and lack of integrity.
The dealers have come down quite a bit with their 2nd round of quotes, but my target price for a Tech is $43,000 drive out. It might not be possible right now, but maybe by the end of the month, and definitely by the end of next month it will be do-able. What do you think? Have those of you getting Techs been getting close to that drive out price?
In the Bay area? East Bay? Oakland is not as agressive. The dealer in Concord and Pleasnton are of the same ownership. the Fairfield dealer is as good as any..
Typical pursuit is to have your infor and finance ready. In the 2 dealers of Concord and Pleasanton, you'll be able to secure a deal @ 500 over invoice, get you accesories at cost. Be careful about you info on what the true cost is however.
The Fairfield internet dealer will get you to 300 over invoice without any effort plus he'll get you the accesoories @ cost. He was the one that emailed me the cost of the accesoories. That was great knowledge to have in my pocession.
With my knowledge walking into the dealer, I walked out with:200 over invoice with side molding, roof rack ($532), Tow Pkg ($912), Sport running boards ($567).
I went in with my email printed from the other dealer as proof of another deal.
I am in the market looking for 2007 Acura MDX Sport and entertainment package. I am located in PA and would like to know the best price quote. I am also looking to the invoice price for the accessories so that I can negotiate a deal. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
I just picked up my MDX. I have been posting for a few weeks but today I got it. Here are the details, from Acura of Turnersville, in NJ.
MSRP 46,365
Sale Price 41,455
4000 down cash no trade
4.9% 60 months
First 5 oil chages free from Dealer, (I worked that one in there) ahahha
Payment of 770 for 60 months.
Purchase extended warranty (Acura Care) for 6 years 120,000 miles paid $1,410 cash for that.
Tell me how I did folks, I think i did pretty well, If anyone is in NJ philly area contact me and I will give names and details.
$43K sounds quite low for right now in Houston but i'm sure it'll be possible 2 months from now; essentially, that's getting the car for invoice ($40,203) plus the $180 in additional fees.
This is a much better price then I am getting here in Rochester NY.
Could you please give me the details - Thanks!
2007 MDX Tech/ent pkg. Nimbus gray/ebony interior
$43,360
Include destination, f/r mud guards and wheel locks(no choice). Roof rail installed by dealer(no cross bars) and cargo net.
I was aiming for $43,000 but missed the target because of
4.9% APR.
Dealer: Wire Canyon Acura-detail will be e-mail to you
I am looking for an MDX with tech and entertainment.
My dealer took $2500 off the 07.
Anyone have better luck in the upstate ny area? :mad:
Long story, but I went to a local dealer Wed 6/27 with a "$200 under invoice" deal pre-negotiated (via email/phone) on an Aspen/Parchment Sport/Ent example (see my previous post within this thread). Turns out the Aspen/Parchment was sold between my negotiating with the dealer the Sunday prior and arriving on Wednesday. D'oh. In all fairness, I had been offered the opportunity to put a $500 refundable deposit on it but didn't ... my bad.
So, even though Nimbus/Taupe was last on my short list of acceptable color combos -- if only because we already have a Titanium Grey/Taupe XC90 -- the dealer sweetened the deal with another $300 off *and* I was able to negotiate "ebay pricing" on all the accessories I planned to order. No brainer at that point ... color choice be damned. ;-)
Since I was leaving for vacation with the family that Thursday, they kept the 'X to install accessories and I picked 'er up on the way back into Phoenix this past Sunday.
Excellent experience end-to-end, if a bit long the day I purchased (given I had a deal in writing before arrival).
Here's how my numbers break down.
Sticker:
$48,465 - MSRP (including Destination of $670)
$1,465 - Dealer "Protection Package + Polymer stuff" (window tint, cargo mat, wheel locks, door edge protection, paint protection, etc)
$49,930 - Final Price on window
My negotiated deal:
$43,495 - $500 under invoice (including Destination of $670)
$164 - Roof rails (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$164 - Cross bars (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$420 - Sport running boards (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$412 - Wood steering wheel (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$220 - Auto dim mirror (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$179 - Body side molding (excl labor) - 25% discount from list
$900 - Tow package (installed) - 10% discount from list
$575 - Profit padding protection package described above - discounted over $900 (window tint, which I'd have done anyway, would have run around $250 anyway)
$369 - Doc Fee (one dealer here charges $565 for doc!!)
$5 - Tire disposal fee
$3,900 - Taxes (can't remember exactly, but it was $4k-ish)
$820 - Title & Plates
OTD price of $52k and change.
In the end, based on my deal using the Buyer's Offer Spreadsheet, the dealer earned 3% on the purchase price and 5% on the deal as a whole. Very reasonable IMO ... especially considering the 3% dealer holdback and 1% WFR make up most of that margin.