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Comments
1). fuel injector click - although that usually does not stop.
2). Piston slap - these piston "skirts" are the shortest any sane human would put in a vehicle. ( the skirt is the piston length past where it is held on by the rod ) Shorter = lighter. Less friction-etc. It also means in Subarus case a NOISY engine at start up, especially when cold.
3). Lifter chatter - this may or may not go away after running the car. Recently I spoke with the asst. shop manager of my local Sub dealer about why Subaru has used SOLID lifters (noisy as heck ) in place of hydraulic ( quiet - self adjusting ). He said - - -"They dont make any noise".. Moron!
I know racers use solid lifters so they dont float out the valves under high RPM's, but most of us in our mighty Subarus aren't running around 8-9000 RPM's.
Can anyone give the real reason Subaru has chosen these solid (NOISY) valve lifters??
Anyway Deb, these boxer design- Subaru engines are very noisy, especially at start up. The noise may continue on for some time even after running them. On the bright side, they seem to be pretty reliable engines, just horribly noisy.
DaveM
All Boxers have a characteristic growl to them, it's true in a Porsche or even a BMW motorcycle. It does not affect durability. In fact Porsche just won some award from JD Power for being the most durable brand of sports car.
Having said that, we own 2 and neither is that loud, not at all. Right now I have a Ford Windstar service loaner and in comparison that V6 is downright noisy and coarse. You can read my full review in the Town Hall Test Drive topic.
-juice
Oil change shops are like assembly lines, I think they're out for speed and convenience, not OCD levels of accuracy. I bet that's what a lot of customers actually want.
I'm sure AZP would let you watch and maybe even help, that would be cool, plus you could learn a lot.
In support of Patti, dealer are independently owned (in this case, it may have been one single lazy technician who made the mistake). She's just watching over them, training them even. We can help her point out weaknesses in the dealer network, and it benefits us all.
-juice
Mike: Do you take appointments and provide loaner cars??? Do you take credit cards? ;-)
I may talk to you about window tinting some day - I almost have Beth convinced to let me do it!
Fredi: Welcome! Well run internet forums like this one are pretty powerful, and will surely help to reshape the consumer / business relationship.
Steve
Heck, that would be better than the Windstar I have today!
-juice
Lance: I got 'slapped' sometime earlier when mentioning "lifters" in a post. Subi uses direct actuation without a lifter as an interface, and a mechanical adjuster to take up valvetrain expansion space. But yes, you hear the rapping until everthing comes up to temp and the gaps close.
Juice: My '00 Windstar was noisy, but nothing like my '97 Dodge GC. That was downright agricultural sounding. Our '02 Honda Ody is maybe the sweetest sounding engine ever - besting my previous Toyota V6.
Steve
I test-drove a 325ix M/T a year ago. Its engine was the smoothest, quietest, silkiest powerplant I've ever experienced in 43 years of driving - FAR smoother and quieter than my new '04 Forester XT. If BMW's 3-series AWD wagon had a bit more power at a bit lower price, I'd be driving it today.
jb
Thanks,
Steve
DaveM
Having said that, I prefer the characteristic sound of a boxer, from an old Beetle to the latest water cooled 911.
-juice
Bob
Anyway yep CCs are accepted, and loaners? Hmm I guess you could borrow the Troopa
-mike
Don't just keep Patti's message on file.
Contact 1-800-SUBARU3 and open a case number.
That way SoA will have a record of your issue - going to a dealership does not automatically create a record with SoA.
-Dave
The fork on the road has always been the almighty $$ or relationships...bottom line.
Patti, you're right, first step to progress is awareness.
Steve I hope everything works out. I'd be interested to know the final resolution.
Mike, I'd take you up if you had one here in CA. So when are you franchising this way?
Happy motoring everyone!
Fredy
Steve
====================================
July 21, 2003
Dear Mr. Hxxxxxxxxxx
Thank you for taking the time to meet with me today to discuss your concerns with our service department, specifically, the repairs performed on repair order 83509, dated July 17, 2003. First, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for the misunderstanding and any inconvenience this may have caused you.
After a thorough inspection of the engine, we agree that the right head gasket was not replaced. Accordingly, we have made a correction to your vehicle's history to indicate that we only replaced the left head gasket. Further, I have enclosed a check in the amount of $29.77. This represents the full amount you were charged for the oil change.
In closing, we hope that you will give us another opportunity to restore your trust in our dealership. If you have any futher questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to contact me directly.
Sincerely,
Lee W. Burns
General Manager
(DCH Autogroup - Wappingers Falls Toyota/Subaru)
Why not ask them to go ahead and finish the other side now?
-juice
Definitely call. It takes only a minute to open a call. I once called them to renew my subscription to Drive magazine, they were very quick and friendly.
-juice
That's very promising. Keep us updated.
Ken
If I were to do it, I would be stripping out the intake manifold, and most of what else resides between the banks so that I had clear access for removing the heads. The heads themselves and the top of the block would then be checked for flatness and any irregularities, and addressed before re-assembly. New gaskets everywhere.
I am not sure that what they do is as thorough. Now I could be wrong, but observing tool marks on bolt heads, gasket condition, accumulated dirt & grime disturbance, and handprint marks, I came to the conclusion that corners were cut. On Monday, the Sr Tech and I reviewed what had (and had not) been done on the passengers side. And while the intake bolts had been loosened on that bank to take the clamping force off the drivers side, the intake gasket looked to be original. Neither of us were really sure that it had been changed. Very little had been disturbed on that side at all. Without full removal of the intake, could the head come all of the way out for inspection, or was a new gasket simply slipped into place? I willingly admit that we can only guess at some of this, but there are too many questions remaining for my comfort level. Get the picture?
Steve
Welcome!
Kidding, but I'm the same way. We had free tire rotations since we bought tires at Costco, but I'd still come home and re-torque all the lug nuts. They'd always overtighten them.
-juice
DaveM
I am sure they loosened both sides of the intake manifold and in all likelihood removed it from the engine. It would be difficult if not impossible to remove a cylinder head without removing it. Been there, done that. Three times!
-Colin
-juice
Greg
Steve
Steve
I think (purely a guess) we'll be hearing more about head gaskets in the near future. I know that it is a concern that is being looked into. I'll let everyone know what is going on as soon as I have confirmed, detailed information. Keep the faith!
Patti
Thank you for the education on The Subie engine..
I was "informed" ( by the local Subaru SERVICE MANAGER) that these engines use solid lifters. He was obviously less than completely correct on this tidbit.. I will still pretend for now he has a clue. Still, being the case, WHY have they chosen this route instead of a quieter version of valve train. I realize the obvious lack of necessity, however (quiet) is not a totally unheard of concept either. BMW also has an ungodly chatter .. ( just to name one other with this same approx sound). I also realize completely that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with longevity of the engines nor performance loss. I can tell by reading some previous posts that some people kinda like the chatter.. Fine too!
Just wondering why one valve train option over another?
Thanks ......
Steve
Greg
My dealership could not duplicate the problem during their test drives so I showed them first hand. They threw some parts at the transmission during my last two visits. They declared it repaired last week. It slipped out of first when I road tested it. When I called to tell them the third time was not a charm my service writer said, in so many words, "Gee". I had to press to get any further action. Five days later I received the final verdict. According to the Subaru technical department the transmission works properly and the problem is my abnormal driving habits. Apparently, driving in stop and go traffic, driving down grades using engine braking in 1st and driving in 1st at lower rpm's is considered "abnormal" by the Subaru Tech deciding the fate of my transmission repair. I impatiently await a response to my e-mail message to Subaru's web site.
You would think Subaru would do a better job of picking their fights. There is no way on earth any car company will be able to convince a "judge" that a car they sell is safe to operate when the transmission disengages unpredictably. As a first time Subaru owner I'm shocked by such incompetence.
The summer edition of the Subaru "Drive" magazine just arrived with an article titled, "In Recognition of Excellence". I'm still waiting to feel "The Subaru Difference".
Anyone out there had a problem with their transmission slipping and/or jumping out of 1st gear?
But those locks would be another story. Another alternative would be getting the McGard spline drive lug nuts, serves as a lock too.
I know it doesn't help now. Sorry about your friend's predicament.
Thanks!
Patti
John
-mike
American mfgrs embraced hydraulic adjusters on pushrod engines early on. While they are quiet and require no maintanence, they are also a reliability issue. I replaced collapsed lifters on a number of Ford engines in my youth. They are probably the tightest tolerance component on any engine (a tiny piston assembly) and are easily damaged by dirt or varnish buildup. They are also best suited for lower RPM operation.
Japanese engines (Subaru included - early EJ-25's had hydraulic ??) have gone back and forth between mechanical and hydraulic with different engine series. I have had a Nissan and 3 Toyota engines all with mechanical adjusters. I adjusted the Nissan (inline 6) every year, the first Toyota only once at about 50k miles, and the other two never (one to 115k, the other 80k) before selling them. And they were all relatively quiet - you would never really know from listening how the valves were actuated. To me, the Subaru is more noisy when cold, but I have asked if anyone ever adjusts them, and so far have had no replies from anyone who has. It quiets down nicely when warm, and I guess that is what really counts.
Steve
DaveM
Steve
Just had a diagnosis and was told that my air compressor was leaking at the welding sean. I need to replace the compressor, but what else do I need to replace? Where can I get these parts? Napa or Schucks(Checker)? Or a wrecking yard?
I helped a friend adjust valves on an early Acura Integra, it was the screw and nut variety Steve mentioned. Pain in the rear. It think they were louder after we were done, FWIW. Leave that up to the pros.
ctwrx1: you have a worn synchro on that 1st gear. That's what they need to fix. It affected a few of the early Foresters and Impreza RS models, back in 1998, there was even a TSB. Point that out to them, maybe they can find it, and also open a case with 800-SUBARU3.
-juice
I have a cross wrench, but also a big fat torque wrench/ratchet and plenty of sockets, 17mm-22mm or so fits any car. Guess you could even add a cheater bar.
But sheesh, those guys may have toasted the brake discs too, if it was that tight.
-juice
After draining the extra oil and deflating the tires, I glanced at the ATF dipstick and thought I better look there too. Sure enough, the fluid level is off the scale. Literally. I know the manual says it’s optimal to check the level when hot, but they also make provisions for checking it cold. At the cold temp, the level is not only way past the Full mark, it’s about a half inch past the twist in the stick that’s past the full mark. I made this check three times, on a level garage floor, and wiped the stick first each time.
According to the manual, the fluid expands even further when hot! We have around 4,000 miles on the car. I know the independent guy didn’t add any ATF, so I have to assume that it’s been that full since we bought the car. Can this have caused some damage? Should we take it back to the dealer (aghh!) and show them just to get it on record? Or, would it be ok if I just drained the excess and went from there. Thanks for any advice.
My $.02
Take care,
Paul