Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

ateixeira

I think we all wish we had more time for stuff like that.

Try working on a car with a 4 year old following you around.

-juice

jlemole

I know that feeling Juice! The simplest job is accompanied by, oh, about 500 questions. But it's worth answering each and every one, isn't it ?

Jon

ateixeira

Oh yeah. It takes about twice as long to do any given job, but it's worth it. My daughter will definitely be a handy person when she grows up.

-juice

nygreg

I go around holding onto my OB's antenna through the window for better reception. Got pulled over by a cop - said I needed a hands free radio. :-0

Just kidding,
Greg

nygreg

Curious what DCH says. I plan on installing Brembo OEM rotors in late summer. Also will get new sneakers. Now just need to figure out why my CEL keeps going on and off.

Greg

Kirstie_H

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member open chat!


http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Pop in for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ballistic

"Don't do that. It causes brain tumors. "

Too late. Already did.

ndirish1

I have a 2003 XS Forester, and absolutely love it. My only complaint is that every time I roll down and up the windows, streaks are left. I ensure that an adequate amount of time is allocated for the windows to dry after washing, but the problem still persists. I'm curious if anyone else has experienced this problem, and what can be done to remedy it. Thanks

ballistic

"every time I roll down and up the windows, streaks are left."

My XT is only 3.5 weeks old, and hasn't needed a wash yet (and we haven't had any Oregon rain, either!). However, I've experienced what you describe with just about every car I've ever owned. Water gets below the door beltline, lingers in crevasses, and wets the window whichever direction you move it. It's probably just one of those annoyances you live with.

jb

joybell

I don't know where else to ask this question. First of all, what is the difference between the double and single? Performance? Reliability? Fuel economy? Cheaper to manufacture? When did Subaru start putting SOHC engines in Foresters? Does this mean that the chances of head gasket failure and leaking oil seals are less than with the DOHC engines or does it not relate at all?

ateixeira

See if you can leave the windows closed until it's fully dried.

Some folks actually use a leaf blower to dry them, it's hilarious but it works. The California Water Blade is also popular, but that won't get inside the door. Or you could drive it around at highway speeds.

If you hold off until doing that, it shouldn't streak.

-juice

fibber2

I'll start, others feel free to "pile on"...

With these engines, each cylinder has two intakes & two exhausts. In a DOHC arrangement, intake and exhaust valves each have a dedicated cam. So in the case of the H4, there would be 4 cams total. A single cam would operate 4 valves (either the intakes on a bank, or exhausts on a bank). The cams sit close to the valve stems, and have a simple actuator.

If you take the same engine and change it to SOHC, the one cam per bank has to operate 8 valves, 4 intakes / 4 exhausts. It is more likely to be positioned between the center line of the valve stems. It either has to have double the number of lobes & actuators (8), or the same 4 lobes with a split finger actuator to operate two valves each. Subaru uses the split finger, IIRC.

I would guess that SOHC would be cheaper to mfgr. Cam casting & grinding is expensive. A single cam head is probably more compact, fitting the engine bay better, and making future service easier. 4 cams may offer benefits when it comes to tuning & exotic stuff. If variable valve timing were accompanied by split intake runners & you wanted different duration and programs for each, 4 cams might be the way to go.

4 vs 2: I don't really think it makes much difference in basic, everyday applications (just an opinion...)

Steve

joybell

Thanks for the explanation. But how long has Subaru had this engine? DRIVE magasine, in an artcile from last year, states that this engine is "proven", but I thought all previous Subaru engines were DOHC?

ateixeira

I think the first EJ25, normally called the Phase I, came out in 1996. That's the DOHC 2.5l engine that was in Forester until 1999 and Outbacks until 2000, that's when they switched to the Phase II.

The Phase II is the SOHC 2.5l engine, still in the EJ25 family. With fewer cams (2 instead of 4) it's a simpler design, but they tuned it for good torque, and it gained 4 ft-lbs. HP was the same, at 165.

What did it trade off? The DOHC revs higher, the redline is 6500 vs. 6250 for the SOHC. It's probably a better engine above 5000 rpm, but the SOHC is better below 5000rpm, and that's where you are most of the time.

-juice

fibber2

I am not a happy camper.....

I brought the OBW ('02 w/15,950 miles) in for the brake rotor TV (thickness variation - what we all used to call 'warp'...). On my short list was to check some suspicious green/black [non-permissible content removed] accumulating behind the #4 cyl head gasket region and on the grey painted frame crossmember below. Sure enough, I just got the call from Wappingers Subaru (DCH AutoGroup) that my worst fears have been realized. They said they planned to change both banks as a precaution.

Heart sick in NY,

Steve

ateixeira

Bummer, Steve. It's OK, though, I heard they started using a more durable gasket design and that dealers have been told to use only the newer design.

Seems like the dealer is going all out to keep you happy, i.e. changing both sides. That's a lot of labor, so be sure to thank them.

-juice

nygreg

Sorry to hear about that. If it makes you feel any better, I haven't had any problems since Colonial fixed mine. Before the fix I was slowly loosing antifreeze. Since then, not a drop. I am curious what DCH says is causing the gasket to fail. Do you need help getting around?

Greg

ateixeira

Did you see Colin's pics of his gasket?

There were cracks on the Teflon gasket coating.

-juice

joybell

...about DOHC and SOHC is that last night while surfing the net I can across a website called "The Ultimate Subaru Message Board", where there appeared to be a large number of complaints on blown head gaskets on 2.5l late model engines. No problems with the 2.2l Impreza engine, just the one they put in Foresters, Legacys and OBs....even one on a 2003 Forester! Also engine block problems...What's happening with Subaru? This sort of thing used to be unheard of.

ateixeira

For one, I think consumers are much better at communicating existing problems. And those with problems are the ones that tend to seek out message boards.

But yes, the 2.5l has had issues with the gaskets. One survey found 8% of people on one particular board that owned a 2.5l had that issue.

FWIW, Subaru does cover it under the 5/60 warranty, sometimes a little beyond.

-juice

fibber2

I asked if there was a new P/N for the phase-II SOHC engine, and was told no. Only a revised gasket for the older DOHC. So that doesn't do much for my concerns over WHY? and WHAT IS TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN? As a failure analyst by training, I live by the concepts of root cause analysis, and corrective action.

Juice - I agree, at least the service writer seems to be listening & concerned. Hopefully the guys in the shop are as on the ball...

They agreed about my wierd brake pad imprinting, and said they were 'serviced' and now smooth. I assume that means they lathed the rotors. Also had the parking pawl recall done.

Greg - thanks, but got it covered. Beth is down in Fredricksburg (AMTRACK), so I have her Honda to drive. A friend took me home at lunchtime to get it.

Monica - I don't know.... I keep telling myself that every brand has an achilles heal, and as long as it is covered, to get over it. Still, I am concerned.

Steve

ateixeira

Steve: start taking lithium....LOL

Just kidding. I generally recommend an extended warranty. Someone just got a 7/70 with no deductible for $700 or so. When you consider that includes roadside assistance, not bad.

Also, if it's going to fail, it'll likely fail relatively early on (i.e. under warranty), like yours did. I would also expect Subaru and the dealer to cover this new gasket for 60k additional miles. While that may not be written, it's certainly an expectation I would have. We have Patti if it ever comes down to something like that.

-juice

paisan

Hey guys, we are doing a 30K service on a guys car tomorrow night, anyone know the proceedure for checking the timing belt? Is there a trap door we open and are able to view it or do we need to remove the whole cover.

Thanks.

-mike

ateixeira

Dunno, but now my.subaru.com is putting the timing belt change on the 60k schedule, so I'll be interested to find out.

-juice

locke2c

You can remove a cover, I believe it's on the driver's side of the engine, that reveals part of it and then rotate the engine to see it all. You could also remove the entire timing cover and see more of it, more easily.

Since you're only looking at one side of the belt (the outside) If anything looks remotely bad the cam belt must be removed and inspected by hand to be done really properly. Or if you should see any cracks or wearing on the outside, it's probably best to just replace and be safe.

Of course this is just answering the overall question. At 30k miles that belt should be in immaculate shape...

I have something to say about head gaskets and DOHC vs. SOHC and the lineage of the EJ series engine, but I won't be able to post it until tonight. Very busy at work today, sorry.

-Colin

bkaiser1

Maybe I'm missing something totally obvious; if so, I apologize in advance! I changed the oil last night in my 04 WRX at 2K miles to put Mobil 1 in it and I bought an OEM filter with a new crush washer...but there wasn't a crush washer already installed from the factory. I figured there would be an existing one there to take off and replace with the new washer, but maybe not.

What's the point of the crush washer anyway? I felt like such a 'tard looking around for a washer that wasn't there! Otherwise the oil change seemed to go fine -- although the plastic cover under the engine took longer to take off and put on than the whole oil change itself did.

The WRX was much easier than my 99 Civic was...its oil filter was high in the engine and usually required 2 scalded arms to get it off!

Any thoughts on that crush washer?

Brian

jlemole

Brian, next time you change, check again. I believe the original factory crush washer is black, so you might have missed it. You might have it doubled up now, but I can't imagine that's anything to be concerned about.

BTW, that washer goes on the drain plug, not the filter stem.

Jon

kens

Brian,

Sometimes the crush washer gets stuck to the drain plug. The color and oil makes it hard to see.

The purpose of the crush washer is to provide a tight seal against the drain pan without having to overtighten the drain plug and risk stripping the threads.

Ken

dcm61

I bet there was a crush washer. The factory one is covered with paint so it is very hard to see.

Look through this thread and you'll see a picture of what I'm talking about: http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1- - 71

EDIT: Damn, 2 people be me too it. But I have a picture. Nah, nah, nah. ;-)

DaveM

bkaiser1

I looked at the pics...mine was probably painted to the plug just as shown there. Next oil change I'll pry the original washer off.

Thanks again,
Brian

jlemole

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. By the way, I spent a little time on the Main Line, then South Jersey. Are you around there too?

Jon

dcm61

I work near King or Prussia and live betwwen Philly and Lancaster.

DaveM

rob999

Sorry to be such a rube, but which cylinder is #4 - I don't have a shop manual.

I want to check for potential HG leaks each time I do an oil change.

joybell

...seem to be the problem on the newer SOHC engines. One post I read claimed that the engine block is actually at fault (slightly concave on the driver's side). Can't find that post anymore though...may only have been one incident.

A couple of years ago a mechanic at our local Surbaru dealer (now closed) told me that ever since GMC put their fingers into Subaru's pie there have been engine problems. Last January I sent a letter to SOC asking them if any GM components are used in the newer Forester and Impreza engines. I received a written reply from consumer relations that "all engine components on the Forester and Impreza are sourced by FHI". That doesn't really mean anything, does it?

Why couldn't we have the more reliable (2l or 2.2l) engines in our Foresters? I would gladly give up a little power for reliability.

fibber2

#4 is the rear driverside cyl.

Steve

rob999

ateixeira

The 2.5l block has been used since 1996 IIRC, we can't blame GM for any problems since that was before they took any ownership.

-juice

joybell

...didn't have problems, did they? Were there no changes to the 2.5l engine in the last half of the 90's (when GM became involved)? The mechanic told me GM is involved in some components for these engines.

fibber2

on the way in to work, and was able to talk to 'my' mechanic while he was reassembling the engine.

1) He was quite amused by what happened to my brakes - indicated it was much worse than what usually happens when you 'put her away wet'. The rust impression was deep, so he lathed the rears & new pads. A light touchup on the fronts w/old pads put back. He felt that they would bed well, but was open to replacing them if he didn't like how it braked later today. And he offered that he hand torqued to 70lb-ft. I like this guy!!!

2) Parking pawl recall done.

3) Will do the rear subframe rustproofing recall today.

4) HG seepage was slight, but the dam was going to burst soon enough. He seemed a bit surprised that I caught it so early. He replaced both sides, something he personally feels very strongly about always doing. We talked briefly about cause, cure and frequency of occurance. He indicated that he does way too many of these. It concerned him also. No change to the SOHC gasket that he was aware of. He felt that it was more a factory assembly issue, and mentioned that he employs a little 'twist' on the complex retorque procedure that works for him. Something only those who know the 'secret handshake' share. Fairy dust? Who knows.....

I thanked him for taking care of my baby, gave him a tip, and headed off to work.

Steve

paisan

Is not involved in these engines at all, your mechanic is full of manure

Seriously GM only took a 20% stake like ~1 year ago, maybe 1.5, even so they don't have control over any of the motor stuff yet. You can blame the onstar and that's about it so far.

-mike

paisan

GM Owned 49% of Isuzu and my '97 Rodeo went 120K miles on oil changes alone, and ran like the day I bought it at that point. So far my '00 Trooper has been mechanically fine as well.

-mike

ateixeira

1996 was the 2.5l DOHC's first year.

In 1997 they did some minor revisions, it gained 10hp and ran on regular fuel. But GM was still not involved.

The Phase II engine arrived in 1999 on the Forester and Impreza. They had problems with the MAF or MAP, I forget which. It was fragile, any mods to the intake basically blew up that expensive part. But - bone-stock cars were OK. Just don't mess with them, no mods.

The next year (MY2000) the Phase II was put in the whole lineup. They revised the intake and it became more robust.

But even that engine was designed before GM took ownership in Subaru. When did that happen? 2001 or so, I think.

Steve: the head torque procedure is incredibly complicated. Sounds like your mechanic is following it to the letter, which is good. I'm serious, Colin shared it once, you torque in a certain order, loosen in a certain order, re-torque, yada yada yada.

-juice

stevek

Just got a note from Subaru that some of the late models (I have a '01 Legacy GT) are recalled becasue of rusting. They will clean and rustproof the subframe.

lucien2

I'm just waiting for it to happen to our cars at this point.

mainsail2

Our new 2003 Forester Automatic XS has been great the first 5000 miles except for one annoying problem. When driving in city traffic between 30 and 40 mph, it will suddently jerk or balk as if it can't decide whether to be in 3rd gear or overdrive. The problem does not continue, if we manually shift the automatic into 3rd, but it does not appear to be normal to have to do this. Anyone else out there with this problem? Is it caused by a problem with a throttle or shift sensor?

locke2c

Hey, hook me up with some wine and a place to sleep and you've got one free wrench turner.

-Colin

lucien2

1 guest bedroom and all the wine you can haul.

jlemole

Anyone have experience with these? I'm thinking of getting one, but would be concerned about leaks, premature opening, etc. Thanks.

Jon

jlemole

Yeah, I have the same on my 02 Outback. I assume it's normal on the 4EAT, but I don't know what causes it. It does seem to become less pronounced over time, as the tranny becomes adjusted to your style of driving.

Jon

babaoriley

I've been inspecting my engine for any sign of leaks since this topic first appeared on these boards. However, I'd prefer to do some preventative maintenance and check the head bolt torques on my 00 OBW.

Colin, is there a site or do you recall the torquing procedure? I'm just going to check the torque but want to do it in the proper sequence.

Of course, this all becomes moot if the 05 Legacy shows up before I get around to this. I know I won't be able to resist with all the Forester XT praise.

TIA,
Brett