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Comments
You can't have that tranny popping out of first gear like that, it's unsafe.
No way, no how, is that behavior normal. I'm tellin' you, the synchros are shot. Try to find that TSB, look under 1998 Forester on the NHTSA site.
Never mind, I've found it:
Make: SUBARU
Model: FORESTER
Year: 1998
Service Bulletin Number: 034899
Summary Description:
VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS MAY EXHIBIT FIRST GEAR POPPING OUT WHILE DRIVING. *TT
-juice
Paul
Subaru will look for patterns of problems. Call 800-SUBARU3 at have them, at a minimum, register a "Customer Says" case. Then you're covered.
-juice
Greg
Steve
-juice
It first happened to me when I was going skiing. Traffic was crawling at 5mph because of snow and chain restrictions. I was on a downhill stretch and kept it in first for engine braking. Scared the bejeesus out of me when the shifter suddenly popped into neutral and I began coasting down the hill!
Ken
By looking at the invoice I can tell it was a major repair job on the transmission and clutch. Fortunately, the whole bill was covered under warranty by Subaru.
1. The transmission was removed, inspected internally. A suspicious first gear shift fork, syncros, detent balls and springs and a few miscl. parts were replaced.
2. I never use engine braking aggressively. I put 4k on the car the first year and it never saw rain once during that time. Well, I got caught in some mist once or twice. I've never popped the clutch and shift slow and smoothly. I only use engine braking in first from approx. 2500 rpm down to idle. Some people might say I baby it.
3. The transmission slips out of first on level ground and on moderate grades. I haven't been down any steep grades to test, not that many steep hills around here. It has slipped out so quietly I barely noticed. Other times it comes out violently and the driveline snaps. The worst ever occurred with the car full of family. I drove through a car dealership in first gear looking at cars. To exit there was a moderate descent to a stop sign. As I approached the sign between 1500 rpm and idle it snapped out of first so hard we all jumped. The driveline snapped loudly.
4. The condition is intermittent with one exception. I was looking at condos along a cul-de-sac one day when it popped out of first. It comes out of first every time as I approach an down hill turn around. If it wasn't for this cul-de-sac I would have had trouble demonstrating the problem for Subaru. The hill isn't steep, just a slight grade. I approach the hill between 1500 and 1000 rpm let off the gas to engine brake down the hill to turn around and out it comes.
5. It has come out in stop and go traffic on near level ground and down moderate grades...always engine braking down to near-idle before declutching.
I'm beginning to think, like some of you, the problem is in the shifter. Maybe there is an adjustment that will engage first beyond the point where it can be pulled out by engine braking. Like most/all cars with manual transmissions, when you engine brake the shifter flexes slightly. I've wondered if installing the optional short throw shift kit would help. I've driven a Subaru with a shift kit and it requires more effort to shift. However, I'm satisfied with the way this transmission shifts(when warmed up, not so much when very cold).
I did a little experiment and checked the a/c on all my vehicles, in the shade with ambient air temp about 85 with a/c running at max recirc/ full fan and engine idling for 5 minutes
98 Legacy 68F
02 WRX 62F
00 Venture 62F
00 Windstar 58F
when the cars are moving, at least the WRX and Venture, there is little change in temp (maybe down 1-2 deg), the Legacy drops to 62 then.
6 deg may not seem like much but its actually very noticeable on my hand.It also occurs even when stopped at a light while none of the others noticeably changes in similar situation. I have had the car into the dealer 3 times now.First time they said it wasn't leaking, even though there was dye on the drier (said it was from last year when they fixed the condensor!). Second time when it was visibly bubbling they changed the o rings on the drier and recharged it.Then it was blowing 78 when idle! Brought it back, they filled it up a little more (why wasn't it full from their recharge??) and thats where we are at now, 68 at idle but it just doesn't seem right. Is there another problem or is that acceptable for a 6 year old car?? Is this the a/c equivalent of the "a quart oil per 1000 miles is ok"??
here's another problem with an ext warranty, you need to deal with dealers who sometimes are clueless.
No, I agree - your temperatures all sound a little high, but obviously, the Legacy is out of step with the others. I will try and remember to grab my A/C thermometer and check my cars (at least the OBW) tomorrow for comparison.
Somewhere I have some performance charts, but considering their age, they are probably for R-12, and not 134. They discuss how outside temp, airflow thru radiator, shade, humidity, barametric pressure, interior fan speed and airflow volume, pounds of freon & high/low side pressures affect cooling. IIRC, there was concern when 134 was introduced (1994 or so) that it would not cool as well without considerable resizing of components, as R-12 does have more 'heat transfer' ability. It is always possible that Subaru was a little 'behind the curve' in this, but it does sound like you have a leak.
Steve
On hills, giving the engine just a little bit of gas caused the engine surge, then cut back like it was running out of air. Basically throttle input, vehicle speed and engine speed did not seem in "sync" with each other. (Example: I am travelling at 130 Km/hr up a somewhat steep hill with many other cars keeping up well. I depress the accelerator pedal slightly and then engine jumps from 2800 RPM to 5000, then dies off back to around 3800, all while the vehicle speed increases to about 160 km/hr)
Is this due to the torque converter lockup? I thought it locked and stayed locked at 2500 RPM.
I should also note that an Outback limited was keeping up with me pretty well while my engine seemed taxed to the max, and even moved up a hill from about 20Km/hr slightly faster than mine. It almost seemed like he had the six and I had the four cylinder.
Any experiences would be great,
Thanks
Sebastian: sounds to me like the torque converter was slipping. Check the ATF level and condition, that's where I'd start.
-juice
Changing the plugs and wires was a real PITA but it is sure worth it! Throttle response and smooth acceleration have been restored and I can imagine that I'll be seeing some MPG improvement as well.
It took me 2 hours including prep and clean up time plus a little sacrificial knuckle skin. As those who have attempted this know, there is no abundance of clearance in there, especially getting at the rear most plugs. There are some good write-ups and recommendations (with photos) on the ScoobyMods site for this exercise.
Now at 70,350 miles on the odo my 60,000 mile DIY service is complete.
My average MPG is currently 23.5. I'll report back after a few tankfuls and let you all know if it increases appreciably.
(H4KB = H4 Knuckle Busters)
Alan
98 OBW Ltd
-juice
I don't know if this could also be related to the torque converter not locking up, but I have noticed that when I have a couple of passengers in the car, it seems slower to get moving, and does work somewhat harder to achieve the same speed. I can only imagine what it would be like towing a 2400 lb trailer.
I will have the dealer do an oil change soon, (free labour the first year from mine) and I also think I have managed to warp the rotors again.
Any other ideas or is it normal for an automatic to be more sluggish under load or on hills?
Thanks for your help
I'm guessing...2800rpm is about 70mph in 4th. if the torque converter pops out rpm goes up to about 3100 or so. To hit 3800 to 4000 its maybe going to 3rd gear? and 2nd gear to hit 5k rpm?
Yes the AT is much more sluggish with heavy load. If I put 4 adults (includes me) in my OB I notice a BIG difference. I usually double check to see if the parking brake is on.
--jay
You are a brave soul in attempting the plug replacement on a Phase I engine.
Good job!
Ken
It just sounds to me like the transmission is kicking down to third gear. It's typical for an engine to lose power going up steep hills. Autos will automatically kick down when the engine power drops.
Jim
None of the work has made a difference. Yesterday I drove out of a friend's bumpy dirt driveway twice. As I approached the end of the drive to stop and check traffic it came out of gear...both times! As usual, I was just getting ready to declutch. The driveway is just slightly down hill but bumpy.
I don't know if this could also be related to the torque converter not locking up, but I have noticed that when I have a couple of passengers in the car, it seems slower to get moving, and does work somewhat harder to achieve the same speed. I can only imagine what it would be like towing a 2400 lb trailer.
I will have the dealer do an oil change soon, (free labour the first year from mine) and I also think I have managed to warp the rotors again.
Any other ideas or is it normal for an automatic to be more sluggish under load or on hills?
Thanks for your help
As Alan commented above, ScoobyMods had great photos and advice.
I also rotated the tires and waxed the rims inside and out, of course!
Jim
Jon
What I do is check the diff first to verify that it's full, drain the diff, measure what was drained, make sure you wipe off the magnet on drain plug, re-install plug, fill with the same quality as drained. Full proof method to prevent over / under filling. This method is not necessary for the rear diff.
DaveM
Remove the top bolt first, because if you remove the bottom bolt and then the top one is stuck, you are toast, there is no way to get gear oil back in there.
-juice
I did several tests on my '02 OBW (H-4 auto) yesterday, then in the late afternoon on my wifes '02 Honda Odyssey for comparison. This is not exactly apples-to-apples with what you did, but gives an indication that my two vehicles can cope with this particular days conditions (which were not too challenging). If I had to write a characteristic equation, I would say that the systems were capable of a 30'F drop over ambient. I checked my thermometer against one of the digitals in the lab, and it is reasonably accurate (actually reads a little on the high side).
7:45am - driving at 50mph, 72'F outside, filtered sun, recirc, fan=1 -> vent temp = 42'F
8:00am - idle under tree, 73'F outside, shade, recirc, fan=4 -> vent temp = 44'F
12:00pm - 79'F outside, initial interior temp = 120'F. after 5 minutes of driving @ 45mph, fresh, fan=3 -> vent temp = 50'F
12:15pm - 80'F outside, parked in sun and at idle for 5 minutes - fresh, fan=3 -> vent temp = 52'F. Switched to recirc, fan=4 -> vent = 49'F, with fan=2, vent = 47'F
1:00pm - returned to car: outside = 82'F, interior = 115'F. Idle, recirc, fan=4 -> vent = 58'F within minutes. Began driving -> vent = 50'F
Honda at 6pm - temp about 76'F, fitered sunlight, driving: vent = 46'F in a few minutes.
I think your Legacy has a problem...
Steve
Jon
The Subie is at 53k and I'll change both at 60k, probably myself. I think I'll use the same stuff.
-juice
Beware of gear oil cologne.
Jim
You can also use tubing with a regular funnel to get to it from above, or a hand oil pump from below, which is what I used.
-juice
Anyone have any idea what would cause this??
Thanks
Mike
But...it went off by itself? I bet the ECU reset itself. Any other symptoms since then?
-juice
Nope, no additional symptoms afterwards, everything seemed to return to normal. I already made an appointment with the dealership, but that's not for another two weeks. I am hoping to solve this thing before then.
Mike
Autos use ATF, which isn't the same as the gear oil used for the differential (75w90), so it's not shared.
-juice
We're having a heat wave here for going on 3 weeks with temps in the mid 90s (101 today) and the '97 Legacy's A/C seems kind of anemic. First time I've used it much since buying it last May. Sunday, I was washing the car and spontaneously decided to wash out the radiator fins. Grabbed a spray bottle of Simple Green (degreaser, etc) and liberally soaked the radiator fins from the front and back before shutting the hood and finishing the wash. Opened the hood and liberally rinsed out the fins.
Yesterday, my wife, daughter and her Mom took the Sube to Spokane at the peak heat of the day (98-102). Upon her return, I asked how the A/C did without telling her about the cleanout and without hesitating she said it seemed to cool much better for some reason - what did you do? Our other vehicle is a LandCruiser with an A/C system designed for an operational life in the desert and it pumps ice cubes out the vents even at idle in full sun, so a tough comparison. We'd been discussing getting the Sube's windows tinted since the A/C system seemed marginal and the windows seem to be weakly tinted from the factory.
Anyhow, seems to have dramatically improved things. Logically, if there's even dust on the radiator fins it would significantly impede heat transfer. Start with the normal accumulation over 35,000 miles of road oils and toss in a few dusty roads and bugs and I could see where the system would easily lose perhaps 10% efficiency. So, a cheap fix to enhance your system's output.
Then, to add another data point to the above cptpilot and others:
86 degree air temp, vehicle parked in the garage. Started and let idle for exactly 5 minutes on full recirc and the vent temp was 49 degrees. A couple minutes later, it was 47 degrees.
IdahoDoug
-Colin
I'd suggest asking the dealer to squeeze you in sooner so you don't get stuck somewhere. Are you still under warranty? If yes or if you have Added Security, they'll cover the tow and a rental if they have to keep the car.
Let us know how you make out!
Patti
Steve, Host
Ken
Craig
BTW, was at the dealer today. Had the OB recall done along with new tires installed. The CEL turned out to be the knock sensor. First the dealer only charged $40 for reading the code (instead of the $85) and then the $225 repair was reduced to $160 (the sensor was $80). Oh well, should have done it myself, but, no time. Called Subaru and we'll see if they can reduce the cost some.
Greg