I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

uplanderguy

Maybe it's because their prior car was a V6, and I was coming from a V6 and a 267 V8 before it, but when my parents bought their '84 Monte Carlo 305 4-barrel, it felt like a hot rod to me. I'd spin tires from a stop without trying, just driving the way I was used to driving. Without checking, I'm thinking it was 150 hp? I've heard people say for years that the 307 used in the '80's was slow, and I did drive a friend's '84 Riviera on US30 once but was so uptight about keeping it in my lane, I don't recall the acceleration one way or the other.

tjc78

It was a 3.08 and single exhaust. Trailer tow cars got a 3.55.

My 89 Town Car was dual exhaust with a 3.27. That was just a little more responsive off the line.

ab348

Since both the Ford and Chevy full-size cars were sold to police agencies as cruisers in the 1980s, did those specific packages go beyond the 302/305 engines and also have performance rear axle ratios?

tjc78

@andre1969
Forgot to answer, yes dual exhaust in those days was good for 10 HP /10 TQ according to the 89 brochure.

andre1969

ab348 said:

Since both the Ford and Chevy full-size cars were sold to police agencies as cruisers in the 1980s, did those specific packages go beyond the 302/305 engines and also have performance rear axle ratios?

Yeah, the Chevy retained a 350 in police cars, for every year it remained in production as a police car. It was dropped in civilian cars for 1980, but carried on in police cars. I want to say it had 170 hp for as long as it used a 4-bbl carb, and when it went TBI it was around 180-185? And then, the LT-1 for '94 bumped it to 260. As far as axle ratios go, for some reason a 3:08:1 is sticking in my mind for Chevy police cars.

They also put the 350 in the Malibu police package, from 1979-82, but for '83 the 305 was the top engine. From what I've heard, the Malibu police package wasn't all that popular. The old Nova had been pretty successful, pretty much owning the "small" police market, thanks in part to having some Camaro heritage in its DNA, which gave it a handling advantage over other compacts of the era. But when the Malibu replaced it, that's when police agencies started switching to Aspens and Volares. Price could have been a factor as well. I don't know how much police packages cost, but a civilian '79 Malibu 4-door sedan started at $4915, while a Volare started at $4504. And police car purchases are very price sensitive, so that could have been the tipping point.

Ford kept their 351W V8 around through 1991 in police cars, according to the EPA's website. Interestingly, it was a 2-bbl. I wonder, would that make the 5.8 the last carbureted domestic engine? I think it was dropped from civilian models after 1980, but not positive. The figure 180 hp is sticking in my mind, although I'm sure it was less during those malaise years. However, while Chevy built most, if not all, of their police cars with 350s in those days, I think Ford built a fair number of them with the 302, and it had the same hp as the regular, civilian 302, although it probably had a beefed up cooling system, alternator, and other police upgrades.

uplanderguy

I do know the 350 4-barrel in Impalas and Caprices was 170 hp in the '77 model year. I lobbied hard for that engine, and didn't know until later that it also got you the THM 350 trans, much-better than the THM 200. My Dad thought the extra $200 for the 350 was a waste of money so didn't get it.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

Maybe it's because their prior car was a V6, and I was coming from a V6 and a 267 V8 before it, but when my parents bought their '84 Monte Carlo 305 4-barrel, it felt like a hot rod to me. I'd spin tires from a stop without trying, just driving the way I was used to driving. Without checking, I'm thinking it was 150 hp? I've heard people say for years that the 307 used in the '80's was slow, and I did drive a friend's '84 Riviera on US30 once but was so uptight about keeping it in my lane, I don't recall the acceleration one way or the other.

Yeah, without looking it up, 150 hp sounds right for 1984. For 1985, the B-bodies went to 165, and but in midsized cars like the Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, and Bonneville G, it stayed 150...something about the exhaust being more restrictive?

My Mom's '86 Monte Carlo had the 150 hp setup. I remember on hard acceleration from a stop, it would seem to put you back in your seat a bit. Even if it wasn't *that* fast, that initial lunge made it feel quicker than it probably was. If I had to drive it today, I'm sure it would feel slow, after having gotten used to faster cars. But back when Mom had it, and the 3 months I had it from when she gave it to me to when I got t-boned, it seemed just fine.

Oh, and Mom's previous car had been the 1980 Malibu with the 229 that she gave me. She had actually used me getting my driver's license, as an excuse to get a new car, and then give me her old one. So then, when she gave me the Monte, years later, I guess things came full circle.

andre1969

Interestingly, according to EPA estimates, there wasn't that much of a mileage penalty of the 350-4bbl over the 305-2bbl. In '77 the 305 was 16/21 and the 350 was 15/20, in the big cars. For '78 it changed slightly, to 15/21/ for the 350 and 16/22 for the 305. For 1979, for some reason they only show the city rating, and it was 16 for both engines.

I wonder what kind of mileage the two tended to get in the "real world".

texases

There's the old theory that a 4 bbl could do well on tests because of the small primaries. Just keep you foot out of the secondaries! Easier said than done...

uplanderguy

I specifically remember those EPA estimates...which seemed good at the time. In the '78 midsize Chevys, the 305 2-barrel was rated at 17/25 I'm pretty sure I remember, which seemed astronomical!

RE.: The 305-4bbl. in eighties Monte Carlos--I seem to remember my parents' '84 having a light-touch gas pedal, which might've been by design. Even my Dad, a slowpoke driver if there ever was one, I remember saying, "Boy, that pedal's a light touch".

texases

Did the 305 and the 350 have the same compression ratio? If the 350 was higher that would be another reason for improved mpgs.

roadburner

My dad had a 1981 Caprice with the 305; it was amazing how slow that poor sled was.

explorerx4

9C1

fintail

I think both of the Monte Carlos my MC-loving friend had back in the day were 305s - 83 CL and 85 SS. Neither seemed remarkably slow, but being used to the fintail, my senses might have been fooled. What got me most about both cars was the numb brakes, especially coming from my W126. I remember I felt like I had to brake 30 seconds in advance for any maneuver. The SS sounded good with the t-tops removed, too.

I recall the TH200 in the 83 failed when it had around 120K on it, and my friend replaced it with a TH350 (I think). SS had a beefier unit, IIRC.

andre1969

roadburner said:

My dad had a 1981 Caprice with the 305; it was amazing how slow that poor sled was.

I think '81-82 were especially bad years. Well, you could throw '79-83 in as well, to a degree, but for awhile GM was able to somewhat counteract the stricter emissions standards by going to a 4-bbl carb.

For instance, the 305-2 put out 145 hp in '77-78, but was cut to 130 for '79.
However, a 4-bbl came out for '79, with 160 hp. Initially, it was only offered in the Malibu and Monte Carlo, but not the big cars, where I guess they expected you to get a 350 if you wanted power.
In 1980, the 2-bbl went away, leaving just the 305-4, with 155 hp.
1981 was the first year for that "Computer Command Control" crap, and the 305-4 was cut to 150 hp. That CCC was troublesome its first few years, but I guess like everything else, eventually they got the kinks worked out.
According to my old car book, the 305 stayed at 150 hp for 1982-84, before jumping to 165 in the big cars in '85. However, I could have sworn there was one or two years in there that it was cut to 145?
For 1983, either the gov't cut them some slack, or they were improving the emissions controls, because that was the year they dumped those under-sized 260 and 267 V8s (Pontiac's 265 was dumped after 1981), and started making availability of the 305 and 307 more widespread. For '81-82, GM had dropped all the 5-liter range V8s from their midsized coupes and sedans, leaving stuff like the tiny V8s, and Buick's 252 V6, as the top choices.

uplanderguy

For me, the '81 and '82 Chevrolets, for power and for kinks with the "Computer Command Control", were the worst. '83 introduced the 305 4-barrel in the midsize (and I'll assume fullsize) cars. I thought some of the interior trimming improved for '83 also, and in '84 some of the dumb discontinuation decisions of '82/83 returned to production--Monte Carlo bucket seats and console shift; two-door Caprice Classic reintroduced; Citation Club Coupe reintroduced; finally, the standard Caprice Classic coupe front bench seat included a center armrest.

tjc78

Pretty safe to say that 80-83 were pretty dark times for the big 3.

Some real losers in the group for sure. It was a perfect storm of downsizing, EPA l, cost cutting and poor sales.

The full size cars were probably your best bet for something decent. Midsize and compacts were dreadful.

fintail

What was a decent domestic compact then? Omnirizon? And the 5 door anyway had a little Franco-German DNA. K-Car was a hit when it was introduced, which says something. Early Escort and can be a little crude, Cavalier maybe less so. Chevette was crude even then, but some of them seemed to soldier on a long time. That's the time when the Japanese pounced on the mass market, and the Germans on the higher end.

Most domestic midsize seemed a bit loathsome, woefully underpowered with middling QC and styling. But for large cars, there were fair choices and even the build quality was probably better.

If money was no object, I'd have gone for a MB then too, but even those had issues in 3.8 V8 gasoline form, with neutered engines and timing chain issues - a turbodiesel was the way to go, so a 300SD or a 300D/TD it is.

explorerx4

I guess you guys missed my hint about the 350 in a Chevy. You could get it in a mid 90's Caprice.

stickguy

Omni wasn’t bad relative to other choices. But definitely the furrin compacts were the way to go.

uplanderguy

By '83 or '84, I'd have absolutely chosen a GM X-body...teething issues over by then, and some had downright beautiful interiors for that size class (Buick, primarily).

I used to rent cars in that period almost constantly, and I couldn't stand when I'd get an import...they'd always be bottom-feeder models with what struck me as bizarro styling at the time, smelly vinyl interiors, and buzzy engines.

andre1969

explorerx4 said:

I guess you guys missed my hint about the 350 in a Chevy. You could get it in a mid 90's Caprice.

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think they called that the Caprice LTZ? I think it was a TBI with 185 hp, and offered from 1991-93? Around that time, you could also get it in the big, angular Cadillac Brougham. I think it was part of a coachbuilder package on the 1990 Brougham, which otherwise had an Olds 307. In 1991-92 it was offered as a regular option on the Brougham, while the Chevy 305 replaced the 307 as the base engine. Then in 1993, the 185 hp 305 became standard when the rounded Fleetwood replaced the Brougham. It was offered in the Roadmaster a couple of years as well, before the 260 hp LT-1 took over for 1994-96, after which the big cars were dropped for production of more profitable SUVs.

explorerx4

There is a mid 90's Caprice up the street which has dual exhausts but is not an SS.

uplanderguy

When the LTZ came out in mid-'91, it had 180 hp--only ten more than the more-plebian Caprice models.

fintail

If I was compact shopping in 84 specifically, a Civic or Corolla, both new that year, would have been most tempting for a safe bet - around here anyway, they generally held up well, and were modern cars. Maybe a Civic or Tercel 4x4 wagon could be interesting, too. Both of those wagons embrace 80s and take it up a notch.

I remember my brother had some friends who were twin brothers, and they were like a pair of F5 tornadoes. In 1996, their dad helped them get a car to share - a loaded 81 Skylark sedan, dark blue with matching plush interior. I want to say it had under 20K on it at the time, and was like a new car. Took those kids about a year to destroy it - made me sad even then.

andre1969

In the '80-83 timeframe what was considered a compact car was sort of all over the map, and overlapped seriously with the midsized cars. You could actually lump '78-79 in there, too. While GM downsized their big cars, and Ford/Mopar followed suit, only GM truly offered a downsized intermediate, in '78. Ford and Mopar simply took compact designs and marketed them as intermediates.

For instance, with Ford, the Fairmont was their compact from 1978-83, with the Tempo taking over for '84. But, the Granada was still around too, and marketed as a luxury compact through '79. When the LTD-II went away, they tried to market the Granada as their midsized car, even though it was smaller inside than the Fairmont! Then the Granada went to the Fox for '81-82, and was replaced by the Fox-based LTD for '83, all marketed as midsized cars, even though they were no bigger inside than a Fairmont. However, the LTD did have a higher rear deck, so its trunk was laid out a bit better. It lost some fore-aft length because of the tapered rear, but gained some height.

With Mopar, the Aspen/Volare were their compacts from 1976-80. The LeBaron/Diplomat were considered upscale compacts in '77-78, but then got marketed as midsized for '79-81, after the old B-body (Monaco/Fury) went away. And again, they were no bigger inside than an Aspen/Volare, with the exception of the '77-79 coupes, which were on the longer sedan wheelbase, rather than the shorter Volare coupe. They went to the short wheelbase for '80-81. The Aries/Reliant became Mopar's compacts for '81. For 1982, I think they might have tried to pass off the K-based LeBaron/400 as their "midsized" car, instead of a "luxury compact", but I'm not sure.

So, it seems like all three downsized their big cars in '77 (GM) and '79 (Ford/Mopar, and '80 for Lincoln) , but only GM really downsized their midsized cars ('78) But then, all three downsized their compacts, in '80 (GM), '81 (Mopar) and '84 (Tempo).

I think Ford got caught a bit off guard with the timing of the '78 Fairmont/Zephyr. It was modern and efficient in many ways, but still designed in the fashion of an old-school compact, in being RWD, offering a V8 engine, and being sized more like the old-school compacts. It competed well for a couple of years, but once the Citation and then the K-cars hit the scene, it just seemed too big and outdated to be a compact.

explorerx4

The Caprice I see is a later model with rounded read wheel wells.

andre1969

explorerx4 said:

There is a mid 90's Caprice up the street which has dual exhausts but is not an SS.

If it's a '94-96 with the 350, that's an LS, which had the same 260 hp engine as the SS, and the police cars. They also had a base 4.3 V8 (not to be confused with the 4.3 V6) that had 200 hp.

I test drove two Caprices in late 1999, in late October. One was a '94 with the 200 hp engine and one was a '96 with the 260 hp. The '94 was kind of "meh". Adequate enough, but not exciting. But that 96 LS...DAYUM!!

Sometimes I wish I had bought it, but then the dealer started playing games, and then a couple weeks later I bought my Intrepid. I was still delivering pizzas part time back then, so it's probably for the best. I have a feeling doing it in that '96 Caprice would have gotten me into some trouble!

explorerx4

I just found out the package is called B4U(someone had a sense of humor).

roadburner

tjc78 said:

Pretty safe to say that 80-83 were pretty dark times for the big 3.

I was seriously thinking about a 1982 Z/28; I was fresh out of law school and I liked the looks pretty well(although the 1970-1972 Z/28 RS was still my favorite). However, when road tests showed that the mighty "Cross-Fire Injection" 305 was only about 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 mph than my Arrow GT 2.6 I quickly lost interest. By the time Chevy finally dropped the L98 into the IROC-Z I had set my sights on a 535is.

roadburner

My soon to be wife bought a new Skylark T Type in 1984. It wasn't a bad car, but again it was a car that was big enough that FWD was a pointless complication.

andre1969

roadburner said:

I was seriously thinking about a 1982 Z/28; I was fresh out of law school and I liked the looks pretty well(although the 1970-1972 Z/28 RS was still my favorite). However, when road tests showed that the mighty "Cross-Fire Injection" 305 was only about 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 mph than my Arrow GT 2.6 I quickly lost interest. By the time Chevy finally dropped the L98 into the IROC-Z I had set my sights on a 535is.

Well, to be fair, that Arrow had one advantage...it had a Hemi under the hood

fintail

I recall when I was a kid, a family friend had an early K-car coupe with that Hemi badge. I can't remember which K version it was, but I vividly recall it was brown with a tan top.

roadburner

andre1969 said:

roadburner said:

I was seriously thinking about a 1982 Z/28; I was fresh out of law school and I liked the looks pretty well(although the 1970-1972 Z/28 RS was still my favorite). However, when road tests showed that the mighty "Cross-Fire Injection" 305 was only about 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 mph than my Arrow GT 2.6 I quickly lost interest. By the time Chevy finally dropped the L98 into the IROC-Z I had set my sights on a 535is.

Well, to be fair, that Arrow had one advantage...it had a Hemi under the hood

Yes, it ran 0-60 in a blistering 10 seconds. Nowadays something that runs to 60 in half that time is not considered to be all that quick.

Michaell

Childhood friends of mine had a K-car wagon - with fake woodgrain. They were a big car family - dad also had a 914-6 in the garage.

I remember we took the wagon to Riverside Int'l Raceway in the early 80's to watch an IMSA race - highlight was the Porsche 962 that burst into flame.

texases

That's about what my '83 GTI would do, I thought I was FAST!

ab348

roadburner said:

I was seriously thinking about a 1982 Z/28; I was fresh out of law school and I liked the looks pretty well(although the 1970-1972 Z/28 RS was still my favorite). However, when road tests showed that the mighty "Cross-Fire Injection" 305 was only about 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 mph than my Arrow GT 2.6 I quickly lost interest. By the time Chevy finally dropped the L98 into the IROC-Z I had set my sights on a 535is.

In ‘82 I was driving my ‘77 LeMans 2-door with a 305. Dad had a car salesman friend at a Chevy dealer and he had a demo ‘82 Z-28 he thought I would like. He gave it to me to drive for the day and keep it overnight. I was stunned that it didn’t seem any quicker than my car, rode like a buckboard, and didn’t do a thing for me. He seemed stunned when I brought it back and said I wasn’t interested.

fintail

Out for a bit today, saw a 67 Camaro with the now-cliched oversize wheel custom theme, 63-64 Grand Prix, looked highly original, driver was a bearded hipster looking guy with a hat, Firebird GTA, pre-90 323 wagon.

stickguy

I hate those giant wheels with super skinny tires on older cars. Just looks off. I blame Chip Foose.

fintail

A fad that can't go away soon enough, like all of the billet stuff in the 90s.

uplanderguy

RE.: The '82 Z-28--I loved the Berlinetta that year, with the plusher interior and gold wheels and subtle trim outside. I drove an '85 before I ordered my Celebrity Eurosport. I was unimpressed. Of course by '85 it had the video-game dash and pods on the steering column. I could still like an '82 or '83 Berlinetta but they're never seen. I don't think they sold that well when new.

At the time, I liked the optional clock in the console that was mounted flush into the console.

uplanderguy

My soon to be wife bought a new Skylark T Type in 1984. It wasn't a bad car, but again it was a car that was big enough that FWD was a pointless complication.

The mindset of that class of car then was interior packaging in the tightest exterior size possible. The car would have been good in that respect, and '84 was a year before the 2.8FI, but even the carbed V6 was pretty peppy. What else in its time, at that price and space utilization, was better?

I was very tempted to buy a new Citation X-11 in '85, instead of ordering my Celebrity Eurosport, but was worried about resale. They were identical, and I mean identical, underneath, although you could still get a stick with the V6 in the Citation. Cachet never meant anything to me; in fact, I usually made fun of that, LOL.

andre1969

What year was it that they changed the dash on the Citation? I always remember the weird sideways-mounted radio, and always associate the Citation's interior with acres of plastic and burlap just waiting to give you a headache and a rash. But, I just checked out the '85 brochure, and with the optional fabric, it's not bad looking. The dash definitely looks more attractive and high quality, as well.

Of course, they're smart enough not to show a pic of the standard interior!

I think that, for what it was, the Citation and other X-cars would have been just fine, if they had been built better from the get-go. Also, in their downsizing quest, one of GM's primary objectives was to have the downsized cars maintain the interior room of the cars they replaced, or even increase it, if possible. And when it came to space efficiency, the X-cars probably exceeded in that respect, even moreso than the B/C and A/G bodies. Being RWD, the mid-and full-sized cars were compromised a bit compared to their forebears, with larger transmission/driveshaft humps and, in the case of the midsized cars, some serious dashboard intrusion in the center spot. But the X-body, going to FWD, eliminated the transmission/driveshaft hump. It also eliminated the front center seating position, but I doubt too many compact owners were squeezing six full grown adults into their cars on a regular basis.

If the X-cars had stayed RWD, with their small proportions, I'd imagine the transmission and driveshaft humps would have been huge, and extremely intrusive. Also, being RWD, you'd probably have to have a longer hood and, if you wanted to keep the car small, the passenger cabin would have been correspondingly more cramped, with the back seat probably being pushed back between the rear wheels, compromising comfort seriously.

I have a feeling you would have ended up with a car somewhat like the Ford Fairmont, which was on a 105.6" wb. That wasn't too much longer than the Citation's 104.9". And it had some serious intrusion from the transmission/driveshaft, and rear wheel housings.

Unfortunately though, "FWD" and "Performance" aren't exactly synonymous with each other, so if that's what you truly wanted, an X-car wasn't going to cut it, no matter how many X-ll or T-type badges you threw on it. There's an old proverb...you can put a tuxedo on a goat. But it's still a goat! (okay, so that was from "Two and a Half Men" )

uplanderguy

The 2.8 MFI was a pretty peppy engine in '85; utilized in the magazine-darling 6000 STE (not 'SUX', LOL!). I had that engine in my '85 Celebrity and it felt peppy.

The dash revision was only in the '85 Citation. I liked the looks better, but I don't remember a one that didn't have a rise in the top pad over it, LOL.

The Custom interior on earlier Citations was either a good vinyl or a corduroy-like cloth with bolsters and cloth on the door panels--but as you indicate, by far most were the industrial-grade standard interior!

I always liked the looks of the Citation Club Coupe, proportion-wise. Didn't have the 'football' look of the two-door hatch, but of course cost you utility.

andre1969

Yeah, that "football" shape of the hatchbacks bugged me a bit too, although the club coupe seemed a bit awkward, in its own way. I think it's the way the beltline kicks up under the rear window, and the upward slope of the trunk, that seem awkward. At some angles it makes me think of a car that got rear-ended and buckled upward over the rear axle.

I thought that look worked well on the '78-81 LeMans, but on the stubbier Citation, not so much. I prefer the more linear, formal look of the Phoenix/Skylark/Omega coupes, although Chevy at least tried to make their club coupe look different, rather than another clone.

Interesting, that Chevy would go through the effort to redo the dash for '85, only to drop the car after that model year. Almost seems like a waste of money.

uplanderguy

I thought the Citation Club Coupe from the rear reminded me of the '78 Malibu Classic coupe, which I've blabbed about here many times about liking.

Of the four, I thought the Omega had the oddest styling overall, but inside, I didn't like the Phoenix's dash with the protruding center portion. I can't think what the Omega's instrument panel looked like; I'll have to Google it.

The early Citation dash with optional gauges looked good I thought, even with the goofy vertical radio (like C2 'Vettes! LOL). Big speedometer, four round dials around it. But you almost never saw that panel out in the real world.

fintail

I recall knowing a kid in high school who had a Berlinetta, I vividly recall the emblem on the B-pillar, in gold - the car was black. Whatever engine it had, it wasn't the hot one - this was not a fast car. I always saw the "football" shape of the Citation 2 door hatch,too.

roadburner

uplanderguy said:

My soon to be wife bought a new Skylark T Type in 1984. It wasn't a bad car, but again it was a car that was big enough that FWD was a pointless complication.

The mindset of that class of car then was interior packaging in the tightest exterior size possible. The car would have been good in that respect, and '84 was a year before the 2.8FI, but even the carbed V6 was pretty peppy. What else in its time, at that price and space utilization, was better?

She wanted an Accord hatchback, but at the time the Honda dealers knew that they had a hot property and wanted to play all sorts of ridiculous games. FYI, the Skylark was eventually flipped for a Scorpio, followed by a Volvo 740 Turbo, a Pathfinder SE, and after that she went with BMWs and has never looked back.

fintail

Out on the road this afternoon: light silvery blue 64 Falcon convertible, unrestored looking, top down - sounded like a 6, maybe a 69 Firebird convertible, restored, grey, and a Ford Aspire 5 door in maybe a "mulberry" color, kind of a dark red with a touch of purple in it, very 90s.

uplanderguy

I used to chuckle at the "Aspire" name. What, next car you aspire to move up to an Escort?!