I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

sda said:

It would be interesting to compare standard features of each compared to price. The slant six in the Chrysler and the 231 V6 were overwhelmed in either case. A woman I worked with while I was in college had an 81 Newport, two tone green, the colors separated at the top body line by a contrasting (vinyl) pinstripe. It was a handsome car and had the 318. Her only complaint was the 318 liked to stall when cold and sometimes ran rough when warm. A friend’s dad rented an 83 Delta Royale when his Riviera was being repaired from a crash. The Riviera ended up being totaled, not his dad’s fault. They lived on a street that was fairly steep. Though very quiet and comfortable the Delta could hardly do 30 uphill when even their 76 Volare with the slant 6 would do close to 40.

I'd imagine they were fairly close? At least, the basic stuff like automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes would have most likely been standard. I know one area that the R-body skimped on though, was tires. 195/75/R15 was standard, while I'm pretty sure GM's big cars all came with a standard 205/75/R15. I remember Ford's '79 Panthers cheaped out in another way, making a 14" rim standard! But, I think it at least used a 205/75 tire, and not a 195.

Now that I think about it, back in college there was this old lady at my church who had a '79 or '80 Newport, two-tone green. I remember she let me drive it around the parking lot when our church had a car wash. I don't know whatever happened to that car, but I do remember at one point, she had gotten it hung up on a concrete island, in a parking lot or intersection or something like that. That must have been a sight to see...a little old lady who could barely see over the dash, in that big car, hung up like that! This would have been around 1991 or so, so I guess it's possible that might have been enough to total it out? She also had a Grand Marquis, of similar vintage, early 80's at best.

I had a '79 Newport with a 318, and it definitely felt like it had more than 135 hp. It wasn't horrible fast, say from 0-60, but if you floored it, it seemed to keep on pulling pretty strong, until you got well above legal speeds. At the same time, we still had my grandmother's '85 LeSabre in the family, which had a 307, 140 hp. So probably a fairly even match...similar horsepower, torque, weight, etc, although the LeSabre had the supposed advantage of a 4-speed automatic, and slightly quicker axle (2.73 versus 2.45). But, the Newport just felt more responsive, and a bit quicker. I remember my uncle, who drove both cars occasionally, also said he preferred the Newport.

One problem with that LeSabre though, is that the transmission liked to upshift prematurely, probably in the interests of fuel economy.

tjc78

Funny you mention the 14” tires on the Panther. I always thought that was a really strange thing.

The early Panthers could be pretty spartan. Vinyl seats, no AC, rear defrost or tilt wheel.

ab348

tjc78 said:

Funny you mention the 14” tires on the Panther. I always thought that was a really strange thing.

The early Panthers could be pretty spartan. Vinyl seats, no AC, rear defrost or tilt wheel.

When I first moved into this house in '97 and for a few years thereafter, the elderly neighbors across the street at the time would have their daughter, son-in-law and kids visit them at least one day most weekends. The S-I-L drove one of the early base-model Panthers, a faded dark red in color, the squarely-styled type with just a single rectangular headlight on each side, and pretty plain-looking otherwise. Those were pretty uncommon to see around here even when new.

fintail

Was the single light Panther MY 1979 only?

tjc78

No, up to 1982. LTD-S

fintail

Was that like a taxi special?

tjc78

It was intended for fleet use. Very low production. There were even wagons, I’ve seen maybe two or three for sale over the years.

fintail

Interesting. I've seen a few in period street scenes, but have no clear memory of one in person. In the past, I always thought single lights = 79. I wonder if such differentiation actually led to real cost savings.

andre1969

I didn't realize the 2-headlight models held on that long, either. Looking through my old car book, it looks like for '79, there were two trim levels: LTD and LTD Landau. The LTD had two headlights, the Landau had 4. With wagons, the base LTD had two headlights and the Country Squire had four.

For '79, the LTD actually outsold the Landau/Country Squire, and was pretty popular, so maybe thats' why I associate the single headlights with '79.

For '80, they had the LTD-S, the LTD, and the LTD Crown Victoria. Sales tanked that year, as they did with most cars, especially big ones, but this year, the LTD was the biggest seller, then the Crown Vic, and the S saw the least sales.

tjc78

There is a guy on the Panther forums that has an 82 S that was a cop car. He is the only member that actually has a single headlight model.

He actually lives right near @stickguy and I. I’ve seen him driving around.

stickguy

You guys are scary with the detail you remember. I honestly have never paid attention to how many headlights they had! But after a quick browse through Wiki, I now know the differences (pictured was a 79 single light model), the entire history of the LTD nameplate, and this interesting tidbit:

1979 was the only year the standard LTD was fitted with a hood ornament.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

You guys are scary with the detail you remember. I honestly have never paid attention to how many headlights they had! But after a quick browse through Wiki, I now know the differences (pictured was a 79 single light model), the entire history of the LTD nameplate, and this interesting tidbit:

1979 was the only year the standard LTD was fitted with a hood ornament.

+5 HP

andre1969

Speaking of hood ornaments, did the '79 Malibu offer a stand-up hood ornament? I figure if anybody would know, it would be Uplanderguy! The reason I'm asking, is that the real estate agent who sold our house back in 1980 had a '79 Malibu Classic sedan. I'm picturing it in a two-tone, black over silver. I remember Mom, who had a 1980 Malibu coupe at the time, commenting that she liked it better, and commenting on the stand-up hood ornament, which ours didn't have.

But, I looked through a few Malibu brochures, and none of the Classics pictured in them for '78 or '79 had a stand-up hood ornament. However, the '80 did. It's interesting how some details, like the rub strips mounted along the lower crease were an option across the board, even on the Classic. Our base model had them, but I noticed in the brochures, the Classic didn't always have them, and whenever one of the models was shown with them, it mentioned them in the list of optional features shown.

I wonder if a stand-up hood ornament was an option in '78-79? Or, maybe I'm having a false memory about the year. I notice in the '80 brochure, every single Classic they show has the stand up hood ornament, so I'm guessing it was standard that year. So maybe it was an '80, and I'm just remembering it wrong? After all, it was 40 years ago now!

Anyway, when Mom got her '86 Monte Carlo, she was a bit proud of its stand-up hood ornament, of a knight, as I recall. However, by the time she gave me that car in 1998, it had broken off, and was in the glove box!

andre1969

As for 2-headlight LTDs, Lemko once had a '79 4-door sedan that he used for a taxi back in the day. Despite being a low-end model, it was equipped with the optional 351. According to my old car book, there were two hp ratings: 142 and 151. I wonder if the higher hp version was a dual exhaust/trailering package version, or something like that, along the lines of what they did with the 302 in later years?

When I was younger, I didn't really care for those two-headlight LTDs, but now, I don't mind them. I think I was just "programmed" as a kid, where 4 headlights meant a more upscale, "better" car? I always thought the earlier LTD models, with the quad headlights and the finer-texture grille with the strong vertical bar in the center, were handsome looking cars. I think it was '83 when they went to the bolder eggcrate grille?

stickguy

driving around today, a light yellow nice looking restoration on a Tri-5 Chevy. I think it was a '55 210 maybe. or at least, that simpler square style body, maybe a higher trim level.

ab348

Those single rectangular sealed-beams were pretty lousy headlights, if my memory of our '78 Grand LeMans is accurate. Luckily they didn't seem to stay around for very long.

imidazol97

I stumbled across an Independence Day car show, but didn't have my camera.
I can't recall ever seeing a 57 Oldsmobile wagon in this area. I wonder how\many
of these survive or even were built.

Next to it was a 57 Convertible. I am not sure I've ever seen one of those at shows
here.

It happened a local site had someone that posted pics from that show. I'll add on
the convertible. Poster had fog on lens for part of the pictures and didn't realize it.

kyfdx

@imidazol97 This reminds me. Last Saturday, we were on our way to Hamilton, and there was some sort of show/cruise-in off the Liberty Way exit (or, maybe Tylersville?).

ab348

Was out to run an errand a short time ago and on the way home I encountered a white 70 1/2-72 Trans Am, restored, that I have never seen in these parts before. Looked very nicely done.

imidazol97

kyfdx said:

@imidazol97 This reminds me. Last Saturday, we were on our way to Hamilton, and there was some sort of show/cruise-in off the Liberty Way exit (or, maybe Tylersville?).

I don't know about that one. Was it at Bridgewater shopping area which is a couple miles from Hamilton?

Oh wait. There may be a Cars and Coffee in the Liberty area on Saturday mornings. Usually these are populated with a lot of neat, high end and/or fast cars more than classics with age on them. The younger guys have a ball with the cars they love.

The Milford Friday evening cruise in at Mulberry Kroger is starting up as an official cruise. Just saw a notice.

uplanderguy

andre, the '78 and '79 Malibus did not come with hood ornaments, nor were they optional equipment.

kyfdx

imidazol97 said:

kyfdx said:

@imidazol97 This reminds me. Last Saturday, we were on our way to Hamilton, and there was some sort of show/cruise-in off the Liberty Way exit (or, maybe Tylersville?).

I don't know about that one. Was it at Bridgewater shopping area which is a couple miles from Hamilton?

Oh wait. There may be a Cars and Coffee in the Liberty area on Saturday mornings. Usually these are populated with a lot of neat, high end and/or fast cars more than classics with age on them. The younger guys have a ball with the cars they love.

The Milford Friday evening cruise in at Mulberry Kroger is starting up as an official cruise. Just saw a notice.

I would guess it's the Liberty CnC. We were getting off at the HWY 129 exit to head to Hamilton.

uplanderguy

andre, re.: your Mom's '86 Monte Carlo with hood ornament...hers must've been the 'Sport Coupe', which was very close to the '81-85 styling. The brochure shows the LS also, with the aero front end and taillights and no hood ornament. The brochure doesn't say this, but I believe that the LS and Sport Coupe weren't available at the same time; that the LS replaced the Sport Coupe. I think the LS wasn't ready at the beginning of the '86 model year for some reason.

andre1969

Yeah, it was just the base Sport Coupe, not an LS or an SS. As for availability though, Mom bought hers at the end of the model year, in September of 1986. So they might have ended production of the Sport Coupe and switched over to the LS, but just had some base sport coupes left over? I think they built about 50,000 Sport Coupes and 27,000 LSes in '86, so that would imply to me the Sport Coupe at least ran for the majority of the year?

At the time, I didn't care for the composite-headlight look of the LS, but nowadays I don't mind it. Could you get that upgraded interior in the Sport Coupe, or was that only in the LS? Ours had a burgundy cloth interior that I'd call "rat fur". At least, I've had pet snakes for over 20 years, and can say that no mouse I ever handled had fur that coarse!

One thing I did like about it though, was that the cloth was on the seats and door panels. I didn't care for the earlier models, where you'd get cloth seats and vinyl door panels, and it just seemed to clash to me. It was an attractive looking car, overall, too. Two-tone gray over silver. It just had the standard hubcaps though.

By the time I got it, it was getting around 15 mpg in local driving, and the best I ever got on a tank was maybe 22, although even that wasn't a pure highway run. But, the car had 179,000 miles on it when Mom gave it to me. I put on 13,000 in about 3 months, and it was still running pretty good at 192,000 miles, when I got t-boned one fateful night, in the line of duty delivering pizzas.

uplanderguy

Yes, you could get the CL interior in the Sport Coupe in '86.

RE.: The LS, I recall the brochure saying something like "Not available at start of model year".

I've said this before, but I couldn't stand on the LS, when equipped (as most were) with the optional vinyl-insert body side moldings--that the optional moldings were about just on top of the bright sill moldings all LS's had. I'd have ordered my LS without the side moldings and with the checkerboard aluminum wheels. I'd also have had to order a tach, to keep that large round gauge opening filled with something, once the clock made its way into the radio dial.

fintail

Took the fintail out earlier today, saw a 2002 and a TR6 in the first few minutes. I wonder what else I will see today.

fintail

Out for a bit today, saw a 58 Edsel Citation 2 door HT, the big boy senior model, turquoise and white, seemed to have just a touch of patina. Unfortunately, I wasn't in a position to grab my camera before it passed. Also drove by a house with a menagerie of 70s and 80s Jags around it - someone has a thing.

stickguy

near my house, parked in front of small strip mall building (well, 2 stores) is a 68ish Caddy convertible. Horrid condition. Torn up top (down), many colored body panels, sagging and beat up. With of all things, California license plates (it is in NJ). No clue how it got there, or why it is parked there (the place has nothing to do with car repairs). Will be interesting to see how long it sits there.

tjc78

Sometimes something that beat up is actually a good runner. The owner just hasn’t gotten to the body yet, lol.

stickguy

It also sagged and dropped. Looked like someone dredged from the bottom of a ravine. I need to go out later. Maybe I’ll try to swing by for a picture.

ab348

The problem with a convertible kept outside without a top is that is becomes a big water bowl very quickly. Unrestorable usually. I remember 20-25 years ago going to look at one with my buddy. Aside from the moldy/mildewy smell, there wasn't a thing left on the inside we even wanted to touch, much less strip for parts.

texases

Years ago my dad impressed on me how important it was to keep the roof of a house in good shape, 'once water gets in you'll have all kinds of problems.' The same is true for cars - if I see a car ad where it's been stored outside with a ripped top or broken/missing windows, I think about the wrecker that probably needs to be called...

andre1969

When I used to go junkyarding, if I saw a car with its windows rolled down, I'd roll them up if possible. I figured it might help somewhat in preserving the car a bit longer, so it can be made of use. Of course, most crushing operations probably only hold onto a car for a few months, so probably a fruitless task in the overall scheme of things. Plus these days, most cars have power windows.

fintail

Around here, where it is damp for so much of the year, even a slight leak can spell ruin, especially if the car is outside and under a car cover, which seems to act like a greenhouse and the interior molds up and rots away.

That reminds me of a car I saw about 20 years ago. Kent Bergsma had a little patch of parts cars, and among them was the rarest fintail sedan, a W112 300SE long. They were made for a few years, production of a few hundred units per year - for worldwide consumption. I'd be surprised if 100 were on the road on the planet today. This one lost its rear windshield, and sat outside for a long time. By the time it ended up here, it was long gone:



The car was later parted out and scrapped.

fintail

Saw this online, I wonder how these cars were(n't) optioned - key word, "FROM":

Michaell

fintail said:

Saw this online, I wonder how these cars were(n't) optioned - key word, "FROM":

i'm pretty sure my dad paid $2900 plus TTL for his '70 Chevrolet C-10. Not sure what was optional on it, but it seemed pretty spartan to me.

uplanderguy

I do remember Ford nationally advertising the Maverick at $1,995, so I'm guessing each of those prices would've been Ford's MSRP before delivery and options.

The Custom two-door sedan looks like a particularly great buy to me.

andre1969

According to my old car Encyclopedia, the Custom 2-door sedan started at $2649. So, that $2222 is a pretty big discount. But, I imagine it was also a pretty hard sell. 1969 was the last year a 2-door sedan was offered in the Custom/Custom 500 lineup. For '70, the Custom was reduced to just a sedan, while in the 500 range a stripper hardtop coupe was offered.

If they're calling these "Vacation Specials", and the '70 Maverick was already out (I think it came out in April '69), then I'd imagine this ad was fairly late in the model year, and the dealer was desperate to move some of these models.

The Fairlane looks pretty cheap, too. They had dropped the 2-door sedan by then, according to my old car book, so starting prices were just under $2500 for a 4-door sedan or hardtop coupe. And, it does list $1995 as the base price for a Maverick, so they're not giving you a discount, there.

uplanderguy

I surely don't recall, ever, a Custom 500 two-door hardtop. I wonder if that was for the Canadian market, notoriously more 'frugal' than the U.S. market. The Chevy Biscayne and Bel Air soldiered on there long after they had shuffled off the U.S. market.

You know, I always liked those last Falcons, before they were cheapo Fairlanes. None advertised here though. Long-hood, short-deck, kind-of formal roofline on the coupes....rarely-seen today. I always picture in my mind a red "Sports Coupe" with black top for some reason.

ab348

The base $1995 Maverick was a real penalty box. Slow manual steering, crummy teacup-sized drum brakes, lousy seats. I remember Chrysler came out with a strippo Duster a bit later to compete with it at almost the same price.

I imagine all of those cars advertised at those prices were virtually zero-option cars so they all would have had 6-cylinder engines and no power assists, hence, not much fun to drive at all. One could make the same case that GM execs used to make in the old days that a better buy would be a late-model used car with more equipment on it.

We had a Custom 500 2-door up here for a long time, well into the mid-70s. I remember seeing a bunch of them on the dealer lot here around '74 or '75 in that mid-'70s body style. By then they were trimmed closer to what a Galaxie would have been like if it had stayed around.

I also liked that last-gen Falcon Sport Coupe. There is a red and black one as you described that I see around here every summer.

omarman

I had a math instructor who bought a new Plymouth Valiant 4 door in '69 when he'd just left the Navy. He said that he paid $1995 for it with a small slant 6, 3 speed and no options. Ten years later it was still his daily driver.

andre1969

According to my old car book, a '69 Valiant started at $2094 for the 2-door sedan and $2154 for the 4-door. So, that sounds about right, once you factor in a little negotiation and such. I wonder how much dealers would negotiate on the Maverick? It was actually a hot item for awhile. In that extra long model year, it sold 578,914 units.

Depending on how you want to play with the statistics, that was actually a record. The '65 Mustang sold about 681,000 units in its first year, which was also extra-long. However, it did it with 501,965 hardtop coupes, 101,945 convertibles, and 77,079 fastbacks. So, they sold more Mustangs, but, as a single body style/trim level, they sold more Mavericks.

The Maverick's popularity fell off fast, too. For 1971, the 4-door was added. It sold 73,208, but the 2-door dropped to 159,726 base models, and 38,963 Grabbers.

The '69 Valiant really wasn't that popular...about 80,000 base models were sold, and about 28,000 of the upscale Signet model. In '70 though, when the upright 2-door sedan was replaced by the Duster, it became a smash hit...by Plymouth standards at least. For '69 they sold 29,672 base 2-doors and 6,645 Signet 2-doors. For 1970, they sold 192,375 Dusters and 24,817 Duster 340s. The Duster went on to be a smash hit on up through 1974, when it sold 277,409 (Duster/360 combined), but then in '75 sales fell off sharply, to around 120,000. In '76, it was down to 34,681, as they started to phase out the Valiant/Duster in favor of the Volare.

stickguy

Maverick had 2 and 4 doors though. Isn’t that distinct body styles? At least as much as fastback and notchback!

andre1969

In the extra long "1970" model year, though, the Maverick only came as a 2-door. The 4-door didn't arrive until the 1971 model year.

In 1980, the Citation set a new record, for first-year sales of a new model. It sold around 811,000 units, but it took four models to do it. According to my old car book there was a "coupe", 2- and 4-door hatchbacks, and the "Club Coupe" I don't know what my book means by "coupe", though. I only remember the Citation coming in a 2- or 4-door hachback, and the Club Coupe, which was a notchback, but more like a '78-81 LeMans coupe than the more formal, upright, personal luxury coupe look of the Skylark/Phoenix/Omega. However, the most popular Citation model, the 4-door hatchback, sold 458,033 units. So depending on the metric you use, the 1970 Maverick 2-door outsold it. And the 1965 Mustang hardtop coupe did, as well.

I'd imagine these records, when applied to cars, at least, probably still stand today. At least, I can't remember any car model that came out since the Citation that would have sold more than 811,000 units in its first year. And I seriously doubt any new car model has had a single body style/trim level sell as well as the ~502K '65 Mustang hardtops, or the ~578K '70 Mavericks.

In more recent years, I think if a model gets up over 400K sold in a single year, that's considered phenomenal (unless it's a full-sized pickup). But, a lot of it is marketing hype, and timing. If the 1980 Citation had been called "Nova", it wouldn't have been able to pull that "record breaking sales for a new model" hyperbole. And, if the Maverick had simply carried on the Falcon nameplate, it wouldn't have been able to claim its "first year record" title, either.

fintail

IIRC, my mom has told me she paid just under 2K out the door for a new Beetle, in 1970.

ab348

I remember in 1980 getting a copy of Business Week magazine with the cover showing a speedometer to represent GM's market share going past 60% (at the height of first-year Citation sales), with a story about how there were worries that the US federal govt would force the breakup of the company due to excessive market dominance. Imagine that. The market usually self-corrects as it did in this case.

kyfdx

ab348 said:

I remember in 1980 getting a copy of Business Week magazine with the cover showing a speedometer to represent GM's market share going past 60% (at the height of first-year Citation sales), with a story about how there were worries that the US federal govt would force the breakup of the company due to excessive market dominance. Imagine that. The market usually self-corrects as it did in this case.

Either that, or the maximum speed of most of their models was 60 mph..

1980 was a bad year for acceleration.

andre1969

I vaguely remember that some of the higher-ups at GM were joking that 1977 was going to be a "60-60-60" year for them. I think it was, they would both turn 60, GM stock would hit $60 per share, and GM would take 60% of the market. Supposedly the media got ahold of it, twisted it around to being smug, and blew it from the rooftops. I think GM did hit 56% of the market that year, although I believe that's just domestic market, which included GM, Ford, Chrysler, and American Motors. And, for whatever reason, in those days, they only talked about cars, not trucks.

Using this particular metric, I think GM actually got up to around 64% of the market by the early 80's. In '83, I want to say that GM sold 3.5M domestic cars, while Ford/Chrysler/AMC combined sold about 2.0M. So that would be about 63.6%. Of course, if you factored in imports, their market share would have been notably lower.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I surely don't recall, ever, a Custom 500 two-door hardtop. I wonder if that was for the Canadian market, notoriously more 'frugal' than the U.S. market. The Chevy Biscayne and Bel Air soldiered on there long after they had shuffled off the U.S. market.

I was thinking about this some more and a search revealed this:

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/another-car-i-forgot-existed-1977-ford-custom-500-2-door-pillared-sedan-the-customs-swan-song/

According to the comments it was available in the USA also, to my surprise. They even were kind enough to offer a link to the brochure page:

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Ford/1977_Ford/1977_Ford_LTD_Brochure/1977 Ford LTD-06-07.html

ab348

Quite by accident I discovered this history of Canadian Meteors, Monarchs, and other unique Canadian cars on Ford Canada's website. The sections on Meteor and Monarch are especially interesting. The complexity of production must have been huge.

https://www.ford.ca/about-ford/heritage/