I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

explorerx4

@laurasdada,
If it makes you feel any better the UConn Women's BB team held their opponent to zero points in the 3rd quarter in their win today.

Michaell

laurasdada said:

Michaell said:

andre1969 said:

ab348 said:

The perfect spot is elusive.

Yeah, tell me about it! Although with me, I think a lot of it is just familiarity. With the exception of one year (1979-80) that we lived in Southern Maryland, I've lived my entire life pretty much within a 10-15 mile radius. From where I live now, I could get to any of my old homes in about 30 minutes, if traffic cooperates, and two of my former homes are actually on the way, more or less, from my current house to my office (well if I ever go back, that is).

But, unfortunately, nothing stays the same, and things do change. Heck, right now as I type this, the people in back of me are having a bunch of trees taken down. There's still about 150 feet or so of forest between my house and theirs, all of it on my property. But it's opening it up enough back there, that suddenly I feel, well, exposed! It's like it's changing the whole Feng Shui or whatever you want to call it! Hopefully once the trees get leaves on them, it'll block them out.

And, back at the old neighborhood, where my family has had roots since before the Civil War, it's really changed for the worst. As I like to say, "Look for it now, only in books, for it is little more than a dream remembered. A civilization, gone with the wind!"

Funny you'd mention New Mexico, ab348. I've always had a fascination with the Southwest and deserts. Dunno if I'd want to live there full time, but I definitely want to get back to that area. When I was a kid, in 1982, my grandparents and I went on a long trip out to California and back, and some of my favorite parts of that trip were in the desert area (Zion canyon, Bryce canyon, that "four corners area", the Great Sand Dunes, the Sandia Peak aerial tram, etc). Of course, vacationing in a place, and actually living there, are two different things!

@andre1969 - Wife and I have been to NM a number of times - mostly Santa Fe, and a few overnight stays in ABQ as we drove to Sedona, AZ for vacation.

We're hoping to move from CO to NM in the middle future. We're thinking Las Cruces, about 45 minutes north of El Paso. It's a college town (NM State) and about 100K population. Real estate is still reasonable - I've seen new build houses between 1600-2000 sf for $300K or so.

Yes, it's a poor state, with not a lot beyond some fantastic scenery to its name.

The desert is what I have to drive through to get from where I live in CO to where I grew up in CA. Vistas in Utah are spectacular, and that's just from I-70 and I-15 - I can't imagine what it looks like from some of the secondary highways.

You just had to mention NM State...
Yours Truly,
UConn Alum

Whoops.

NMSU was the only Mountain West team to make it out of the first round.

laurasdada

Michaell said:

laurasdada said:

Michaell said:

andre1969 said:

ab348 said:

The perfect spot is elusive.

Yeah, tell me about it! Although with me, I think a lot of it is just familiarity. With the exception of one year (1979-80) that we lived in Southern Maryland, I've lived my entire life pretty much within a 10-15 mile radius. From where I live now, I could get to any of my old homes in about 30 minutes, if traffic cooperates, and two of my former homes are actually on the way, more or less, from my current house to my office (well if I ever go back, that is).

But, unfortunately, nothing stays the same, and things do change. Heck, right now as I type this, the people in back of me are having a bunch of trees taken down. There's still about 150 feet or so of forest between my house and theirs, all of it on my property. But it's opening it up enough back there, that suddenly I feel, well, exposed! It's like it's changing the whole Feng Shui or whatever you want to call it! Hopefully once the trees get leaves on them, it'll block them out.

And, back at the old neighborhood, where my family has had roots since before the Civil War, it's really changed for the worst. As I like to say, "Look for it now, only in books, for it is little more than a dream remembered. A civilization, gone with the wind!"

Funny you'd mention New Mexico, ab348. I've always had a fascination with the Southwest and deserts. Dunno if I'd want to live there full time, but I definitely want to get back to that area. When I was a kid, in 1982, my grandparents and I went on a long trip out to California and back, and some of my favorite parts of that trip were in the desert area (Zion canyon, Bryce canyon, that "four corners area", the Great Sand Dunes, the Sandia Peak aerial tram, etc). Of course, vacationing in a place, and actually living there, are two different things!

@andre1969 - Wife and I have been to NM a number of times - mostly Santa Fe, and a few overnight stays in ABQ as we drove to Sedona, AZ for vacation.

We're hoping to move from CO to NM in the middle future. We're thinking Las Cruces, about 45 minutes north of El Paso. It's a college town (NM State) and about 100K population. Real estate is still reasonable - I've seen new build houses between 1600-2000 sf for $300K or so.

Yes, it's a poor state, with not a lot beyond some fantastic scenery to its name.

The desert is what I have to drive through to get from where I live in CO to where I grew up in CA. Vistas in Utah are spectacular, and that's just from I-70 and I-15 - I can't imagine what it looks like from some of the secondary highways.

You just had to mention NM State...
Yours Truly,
UConn Alum

Whoops.

NMSU was the only Mountain West team to make it out of the first round.

Thanks for not pouring salt in the wound.

uplanderguy

Our Oho Region Studebaker Drivers Club visited this guy's private collection today. I was totally smitten with this 17K mile '58 Ford Fairlane 500. Original owner was a Pearl Harbor survivor and traded in a '50 Plymouth convertible for which he got $35 trade, LOL. Someone told me that the purchase price of the '58, $2,600-odd, is about $26K today, and the guy essentially paid cash for the car. Of course, in that part of the country then, there were a lot of good-paying manufacturing jobs. Don't get me started on that though.

imidazol97

The tri-tone colors and the middle blue against the anodized aluminum side spear
look especially rich to me. I lusted over that kind of Ford in those days. A two-door
hardtop!

Thankx for the pictures. Do you have pics of other cars in his collection?

uplanderguy

I have a few. I'll have to send them to my email and download them and then copy them here. Probably tomorrow.

uplanderguy

I'll post a few of the more oddball cars he had. Here's a Nash Healey:

uplanderguy

His Hudson Italia

uplanderguy

'52 Kaiser Traveller. The chromed piece behind the rear door is the accessory rear-door child-safety lock! These cars are styled weirdly IMHO but pretty rare to see which bumps it up in my mind.

uplanderguy

Here's a couple oddballs. I really don't like any styling aspect, interior or exterior, of these cars, but they are unusual to see and the Rebel was a real hotrod. The red car I believe is a Nash nameplate, '57.

The owner of the collection said the red Nash is his favorite car of his, largely because his Dad had had one.

andre1969

That '58 Ford's original price seems awfully low to me. I just looked it up in my old car book, and they have a '58 Ford Fairlane 500 Victoria hardtop coupe listed at $2435 base price, which would put the total price at around $3200.

Or, is that the way they did invoices in those days? Negotiate the price, and then they back it out of the base price, and that's what's shown? So in this case, perhaps the car was $2435 plus options, but was negotiated down to the $1848.55, and then that invoice was typed up? Considering '58 was a recession year, and just about everybody's sales were down except for Rambler, I could see $500-600 being knocked off that Ford's price. That "300 hp engine" was a 352 CID, with the type of power more associated with mid-priced cars, so it might have been a hard sell as well, in a year when there's a sudden backlash against that type of car, and people are more concerned with fuel economy.

It's interesting how small the "add on" fees were, back then. 3% sales tax, and about $8.60 in dealer-associated stuff. The other day, I was looking at trucks online, at the dealer I bought my Ram from. In the fine print, it read the usual "plus tax, tags, shipping, $500 dealer processing charge, etc". Shipping was something like $1695 for trucks, and I think $1495 for cars. Maryland sales tax is 6%.

andre1969

One thing that just hit me...if the owner of that '58 Ford is a Pearl Harbor survivor, how old is he?! I'm presuming that's him in the picture, lifting the hood of the Ford? Considering Pearl Harbor was over 80 years ago now, he looks pretty good for his age!

I know we've had the '57/58/59 discussion before, probably seven ways to sunday now, as Claude Akins used to say in the old AAMCO commercials! But, I really like the '58! I know it's usually considered the least-loved of that generation.

If someone told me to pick my favorite of the Low-end-three cars for '57, I'd say "Plymouth" without even thinking twice. But for '58, honestly I have to think about it a bit, as I like all three of them a lot, all in their own way. But then for '59 I have to think about it as well, but for the opposite reason...none of Chevy/Ford/Plymouth's offerings really do much for me that year.

imidazol97

On the '58 Fords, the roof has a series of small grooves. Accents? The
'57 doesn't have them.

I set out to find out why/how. This is an interesting 3-year summary
of Ford developement and stying. I found it interesting, but detailed
and lengthy.

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021145/uploads/editor/cd/eiddrj1nye8n.jpg



A 1959 prototype styling model.

andre1969

I've always heard that those grooves were in the roof to make the structure stronger. Supposedly the same holds true for that fake hood scoop and its associated sculpting. And perhaps the trunk, too?

I'm a bit surprised though, about the hood. I found this pic of the underside of a '57 Ford hood, and it looks fairly well braced to me...



Much better than my '57 DeSoto. Here's a '57 Fireflite, for comparison...


It's not the type of hood you want to lift from a corner! Although, maybe that's why the Ford's hood needed extra bracing? Opening from the front like that, it seems you'd have no choice but to lift it from a corner, unless you're tall, have long arms, and a strong back.

sda

To the dismay of dad, I remember climbing up and sitting on the hood of their 59 Pontiac. I don’t think I damaged it but my rear end sustained a healthy swat. My father in law refers to it as “Dr Hand”.

andre1969

I think overall, Ford did a great job with the styling of the '57-59 body shell. At least, they changed it enough that it looks substantially new, each of the three years. And it sold well. The Chevy was actually three completely different bodies in '57, 58, and '59. Yet Ford was able to outsell Chevy in '57 and '59. And, considering the Chevy WAS all-new for '58, Ford still did pretty well. I think it was something like ~1.142M Chevies to 987K Fords?

One thing I've often wondered...I know the entire '59 GM lineup was all new, and in many cases wheelbases were tampered with, but were any of the frames carryover from '57-58? Ford actually used that '57-59 frame through '64.

sda

On the retail sticker of the 58 Ford ‘Positive Action Wipers’, are those electric vs vacuum wipers? I wonder how many speeds. I think vacuum wipers were variable speed, not including when they would almost come to a stop when the driver would accelerate or have to go up a hill. Mom’s 55 Chevy was like that. It was like the wipers would flap back and forth wildly then barely move, then resume going back and forth wildly after she got to speed. My 62 Galaxie and mom’s 63 Dynamic 88 only had one speed electric wipers and neither car had washers, back up lights or a driver’s door mirror.

uplanderguy

My earliest Lark had two-speed wipers which were standard. It was a '63 model.

RE.: That '58 Ford....I thought it was odd that there was no discount shown on the invoice. Although now that I think about it, I do think a Fairlane 500 Club Victoria would base higher than a few bucks above the same year Studebaker Scotsman, LOL!

I gotta wonder if the purchaser was an employee or relative and got dealer invoice price or close. I didn't come in at the front of the story about the car there although I was the first (only?) in our group to take a photo.

That fellow is not the original owner, nor even the current owner. He's one of the hired guys who keep the collection going. All are on trickle charge, and every car gets driven on a pre-selected five-mile loop at least once a year.

The current owner bought the car from the original owner's son.

Something I've noticed now about the car is that on other '58's I've seen, there is chrome around the headlights which is missing on this car. I still am enamored of the car.

In the '57-59 era, I'd choose a black and red '57 Fairlane 500 Club Victoria, the above-colored '58 Fairlane 500 Club Victoria, and in '59 I'd avoid the Big Three altogether and probably buy a '59 Lark VIII Regal 2-door wagon. The '59 GM big cars are too out there for me, and I just don't like the '59 Ford at all. '59 Mopars are largely 'meh' for me.

uplanderguy

I think those indentations on the body panels of the Ford are for rigidity.

uplanderguy

This came up in my FB memories this morning. When the original owners of my '63 came to visit. Neither wanted to drive the car but we did go on a nice cruise around Kent with the top open.

uplanderguy

RE.: Opening and closing a hood--I always remember my Dad telling me to not close the hood from a corner but at the center of the front of the hood--or, "you might 'spring' it", LOL.

fintail

Cool collection! A Nash-Healey, Hudson Italia, Rambler Rebel, Kaiser, and that 58 Ford is pretty. Is that a 61 Starliner beside the 58 Ford? That rear antenna is kind of cool too, never noticed that before.

Something that collector would like, I saw a Frazer on the road here.

uplanderguy

Yes, he had both '60 and '61 Starliners next to each other. His collection was largely Ford, including a GT-40.

He had four supercharged Stude products--a '58 Packard Hawk (red), a '63 Avanti (turquoise), a '63 Gran Turismo Hawk (red), and a gold '63 Lark Daytona Hardtop. The gold Lark was a 'Cars and Parts' magazine and Studebaker Drivers' Club "Turning Wheels" magazine cover car in the mid-eighties, and I love the gold with red interior, but I could see a handful of authenticity items.

explorerx4

The address where the car was sold is just a parking lot now.

ab348

imidazol97 said:

On the '58 Fords, the roof has a series of small grooves. Accents? The
'57 doesn't have them.

I set out to find out why/how. This is an interesting 3-year summary
of Ford developement and stying. I found it interesting, but detailed
and lengthy.

You posted the wrong link. The one you posted is just a pic of that '58.

In the absence of any other explanation, I know that former Fomoco stylist Robin Jones, who was working with Roy Brown on the '58 Edsel project, produced the grooved roof panel idea as a concept for the '58 Edsel. He claimed that Ford styling staff liked it and put it on the '58 Ford instead, leaving the Edsel to soldier on with a plain roof.

It was interesting to see in the piece by him that I read how good some of the sketches for the '58 Edsel front end looked before upper brass decided on the front end they ended up with. Strange times at Ford.

uplanderguy

I actually like the Ford-based '58 Edsels better than the bigger ones, proportionally.

Poor Edsel Ford, the man. Seriously. Got no respect from his father, and 15 years after his death, the car named after him got little respect too.

I can't imagine men who 'bet the farm' to buy an Edsel-only dealership. The one in this town, although many years before I lived here, switched to Studebaker. The town I grew up in did not have an Edsel dealership.

Speaking of Edsel Ford, did anyone ever see the two-part TV movie made probably in the early '90's with Cliff Robertson as Henry Ford and Hope Lange as his wife? Some of the wigs he wore as Henry became an old man were cringeworthy, but good story. I think it was called "Ford: The Man and the Machine" and was based, somewhat, on Lacey's book "Ford, The Men and the Machine". It showed Henry's abilities and work ethic, but didn't shy away from his treatment of Edsel and some other things, including his strange faith in his 'goon' Harry Bennett.

ab348

I saw that Ford movie but don't recall much about it. I read the book when it came out in the '80s and assuming it was mostly factual, the picture it painted of Henry was not a good one. While he became quite pathetic in his old age, even in his earlier years his behavior was rather despicable, especially towards his son.

uplanderguy

The movie had him actually thinking of handing over the presidency of Ford to his goon Harry Bennett, after Edsel died. There was a very moving scene of Clara's strength at the dinner table, where she essentially said, "Henry Ford, I've never spoken to you in this manner before, but listen to me and understand. If you give Bennett the presidency, I will leave you. And don't think I won't."

That would have been the most embarrassing thing in the world to him at that time, in his advanced years.

ab348

Here are some of those Robin Jones renderings of proposals made at the time for the '58, '59, and '60 Edsel.

uplanderguy

I sort-of see the '60 in the bottom photo.

Henry died in 1947 and Clara in 1950. Really, when you think about it, and his effect on the world, that really wasn't all that long ago.

I toured his home, Fair Lane, a couple times....the last time in 1990. Had an older lady tour guide. I asked if she'd met HFII and what was her opinion. She knew what I was getting at and smiled and said "He was always nice to me".

Two lines of HFII's I always remember:

1) "Never complain, never explain"

2) When asked why he fired Iacocca, he supposedly replied, "Sometimes you just don't like somebody", LOL.

imidazol97

sda said:

On the retail sticker of the 58 Ford ‘Positive Action Wipers’, are those electric vs vacuum wipers? I wonder how many speeds. I think vacuum wipers were variable speed, not including when they would almost come to a stop when the driver would accelerate or have to go up a hill. Mom’s 55 Chevy was like that. It was like the wipers would flap back and forth wildly then barely move, then resume going back and forth wildly after she got to speed. My 62 Galaxie and mom’s 63 Dynamic 88 only had one speed electric wipers and neither car had washers, back up lights or a driver’s door mirror.

I believe the Positive Action Wipers is a vacuum pump that's a part of the fuel pump on the side of the engine. It provides a vacuum even when the throttle plate is wide open and the manifold vacuum inside the engine has dropped. If I recall they weren't perfect!

andre1969

I think this concept in particular looks nice...
I think the idea of actually blending the central part of the grille into the outer flanks was a good one. I get what they were trying to do with the '58-59, trying to evoke images of a fighter jet, but I just don't think it worked out well, as executed.

For '58, at least, I think it might have worked a bit better if the front had just a bit of forward slant to it. But as it is, the central grille is vertical, the outer flanks are vertical, and the headlight bezels are vertical. They do try to get some forward slant with the way the grille wraps around on the sides of the fenders, but overall, the car just seems like it has a serious overbite.

That sketch at the bottom looks good, too. I see just a hint of '65 Chrysler in it, if I stare at it long enough. And, that might make sense, as a lot of Ford stylists jumped ship to Chrysler.

ab348

The story Jones told about the '58 was that the preferred concepts for the central part of the front end that the styling team preferred were pretty similar, with a narrow central vertical blade with some having a narrow slot included for cooling. But when the concepts went upstairs to Ernest Breech, the head of Ford at the time, he wanted that central section made wider. There was some reference made to a Duesenberg front end though I don't see that in the end result. Such is what happens when people who aren't designers get to call design shots.

stickguy

saw a 79ish vintage Celica out driving today. Period beige. This style, not the more common (well, to me) rounded hatchback. Did not get really close, but looked quite clean from a distance.

fintail

Small world, I spotted the Frazer again today - maybe a block away, and I wasn't headed that direction, so I snapped a pic and hoped for the best - that two tone scheme is distinctive:

ab348

Sorry to read tonight that Pat Goss, of the Goss’ Garage segment on Motorweek, has passed away.

stickguy

that's sad to hear. I liked his segments.

Michaell

I spotted a land yacht Lincoln today.

Early to mid 70's, 2 door coupe that was absolutely humungous.

I think it was this:

kyfdx

Michaell said:

I spotted a land yacht Lincoln today.

Early to mid 70's, 2 door coupe that was absolutely humungous.

I think it was this:

That looks like a '76. My stepfather had that exact car (and color), only with a full vinyl roof in body color.

tjc78

Same color as my 79 was too. Without seeing the front end and interior tough to pin year down.

uplanderguy

Back to the pricing on that '58 Fairlane 500--a friend reminded me that the big Ford engine plant in Cleveland opened in 1952 so perhaps the original purchaser was a Ford plant employee and received a discount. I'd think we'd see something written to that effect on the invoice, but who knows.

andre1969

Just as a rough guideline to price, I remember my paternal Granddad saying that their '57 Ford Fairlane 500 Victoria 4-door hardtop was about $3500. I think the base MSRP was around $2414. Now I don't know if he meant that was the sticker price, or what he paid. Or if that's just a VERY rough figure that was a product of a failing memory (both his, and mine!)

I'd guess Granddad's was equipped close to that '58. It had the biggest V8 offered, although in '57 that was just the 312. It also had power steering and brakes, something I'm not seeing listed on that '58. That actually seems a bit odd to me, getting the bigger engine, but no power steering/brakes. Also, I believe the 352 was sort of a "medium" block, even though that was never common terminology...about the only time I ever heard it referenced was with the Pontiac block, as Pontiac never did the big block/small block thing. Oh, and with DeSoto, retroactively. I don't think anybody used the terms "big block/small block" back then, but in later years, because the DeSoto Hemi was physically larger than the Dodge, but smaller than the Chrysler Hemi, I've heard the term medium block thrown around.

But regardless, I'd imagine the 352 block was a heavier engine than the old Ford "Y-block?"

In a similar vein, when it comes to remembering prices, Uplander, you making me question my maternal Granddad's memory, when he said their '72 Impala 4-door hardtop was around $5,000. Years ago, I thought that was possible. The base price was something like $3771, and considering how a'la carte cars were back then, I could see the price getting optioned up to $5K. But back then, I didn't realize that the automatic, power steering, and power brakes would have been standard in that price. So I'd imagine its only options would have been the radio (I'm pretty sure it had FM), vinyl roof, white walls, a/c, and the window tint.

uplanderguy

Our '74 Impala Sport Coupe stickered at the bottom, with destination, $4,408. It had no A/C, but white painted top, tinted glass, optional body side molding with vinyl insert, wheel opening moldings, bumper guards, Custom Deluxe seat belts, factory floor mats, AM radio, rear-seat speaker, whitewalls, full wheel covers, and Quiet Sound Group. I recall all of that vividly. I seem to remember Four-Season Air Conditioning being in the high 300's then but just not sure.

The dumb stuff I remember....I remember a red '71 Impala Sport Coupe, no A/C, black interior, no tinted glass, AM radio, whitewalls and full wheel covers, Turbo-Hydramatic and power steering and brakes, and I can't remember anything else which makes me think it had nothing else, stickering at the bottom for $3,906. I'm sure enough of that to wager something, LOL.

I'm old enough to remember midway through the '71 year when they started advertising standard Turbo-Hydramatic, power steering, and power brakes on full-size V8 Chevys. But even as a 13-year old I can remember saying "Hey! The base price is about $350 higher!".

uplanderguy

Here's a window sticker for a '72 Caprice coupe (I could nitpick the car forever, LOL) but it shows $416.05 for the Four-Season Air Conditioning, which was more than I remembered.

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/890089/1972-chevrolet-caprice-for-sale-in-west-chester-pennsylvania-19380

I can't recall how much prices went up from '72 to '74, but if your grandfather's Sport Sedan had a vinyl top, say, or FM radio, with A/C, it may well have been a $5K sticker. Back then there were no interior upgrades other than vinyl over cloth.

This Caprice coupe, with vinyl top and A/C, stickered with destination at $4,971. The only things standard on a Caprice then that were widely equipped optionally on Impalas were the full wheel covers and wheel opening moldings, and a clock.

texases

Those multiple shades of green for the interior did not age well, IMO.

uplanderguy

It's not that they didn't age well, it's that this car has an amateurish reupholstery job. But of course, that's probably due to the original upholstery not aging well, LOL.

uplanderguy

I always liked the '72 Caprice's gray brocade interior--first Chevy I could remember with a gray interior (lighting/aging of this photo gives it a green tint, but it was a light gray). Funny, later I grew to detest gray interior as it seemed like 90% of all rental cars, from bargain-basement on-up, had them when I was renting cars every other week for a couple decades

The Caprice also offered a second standard upholstery, full nylon/knit (bottom cushion and lower back upholstered in same material as the upper-backs in the brochure pic).

The brocade sure looked top-drawer, but in looking at the cars over the decades, the nylon/knit seemed to wear like iron in comparison.
.

andre1969

Considering the asking prices I've seen lately, for utter crap, suddenly that $9950 asking price on that '72 Caprice doesn't sound too bad. I've tended to hear conflicting stories on the 400 though. I've heard it was a weak block, because it was bored out as far as the block could take it, plus having siamesed cylinders. But then, I've heard that the block was stronger, and desired by hot-rodders, BECAUSE it was siamesed!

So, which is it, I wonder? I think the 400 did tend to have cooling system issues because of those siamesed cylinders. Probably not a problem if you kept up on maintenance, but if you let it go too long without coolant flushes, I guess you'd be more likely to run into problems than you would with a 350?

uplanderguy

I have no idea; I haven't heard that about them.

I can remember as plain as day, walking home from downtown and our neighbor, Mr. Craig, who was a salesman at the Chevy dealer, recognizing me and picking me up for a ride home. He was probably well into his sixties then. He had a 1970 Impala Sport Sedan demo, with the 400 which was new that year. He knew I loved cars even then and was telling me about how it had 265 hp and ran on regular gas. LOL.

ab348

For '72, did both the small-block 400 (the Turbo-Fire) and the big-block 400 (the Turbo-Jet) have 2-bbl carbs? The brochure is silent on the subject. The SB is listed as producing 170hp so I assume that is a 2bbl, but the big block is listed at 210. The 454 is listed at 270hp, so that is certainly a 4bbl. Interestingly the brochure says you can order dual exhaust as an option only on the big block 400.