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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    Cimarron actually looks fine; styling wasn't the issue.

    The article read like a setup for choosing #1, which is way off. Our expectations are higher for super cars, but it's not uglier than an Aztec or even a Juke.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    The 85 Deville isn't all that bad either.

    I still like the instrument panels of DeVilles up through '93 (although I like the earlier, analog speedometers).

    I think GM lost their way with coupes about this time. They looked like four-doors, with the rear doors filled in! The Coupe deVille for '85, without a vinyl top, got you a virtually square quarter window. The Electra two-doors were similarly dismal IMHO. I think Olds made you get a vinyl top on the two-door Ninety-Eights of that era.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited April 2013
    I think if I had to scale my 'ugly' list down to three or four or five, they'd include the Cube, the Aztec, the Juke, the "Hash" that made their list, and the '60 Plymouth.

    Now that I think about it, I'd have to put the "Hash" at the top (bottom?).

    I take that back. I think the Cube is the worst-looking vehicle since the dawn of time. The "Hash" may be the next!

    I had to laugh at their description of it looking 'Russian'--I have long said that up until '63 IMHO, Rambler sedans often looked like Eastern bloc products!

    DISCLAIMER: I know people who said their '64 Ramblers, anyway, were very good cars. ;)
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    The '85 Deville is very awkward though if you take basic design competence into consideration.

    Really, a car should not look like it was designed in prison. Presumably, these stylists are paid good money for allegedly knowing what they are doing.

    So fundamental errors in design shouldn't be tolerated so easily, or forgiven.

    Maybe WE shouldn't "know better" but professional designers should.

    A car should not look like it was made out of Leggos. :mad:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Is this what Clark Griswold got after he got that executive promotion at his food additives company?
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited April 2013
    Somewhere on that list is the Corsica which is similar to the Chevy Beretta but I didn't notice on the list. Here's a strange youtube short which has an ugly, little 4 door version of what looks (to me) like the Beretta/Corsica.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    There's actually some logic behind the '85 DeVille, though. That shape is probably about the only way you're going to get 109/110 cubic feet of passenger volume (2 door/4 door) in a package that's only about 196" long, and still have it look more or less like what people expected a Cadillac to look like, at the time.

    Remember, these cars are about as big externally as your typical intermediate today, yet they had to fill the shoes of a full-sized car at the time. Now that the Panther is gone, I don't know if there are even any cars left that have that kind of passenger volume. Maybe a long-wheelbase LS, S-class, A8, or 7-series?

    Personally, I thought the Olds Ninety Eight and Buick Electra looked better than the DeVille when they went to FWD. The Olds and Buick, seemed to work with the new style better, coming up with something that still looked like and Olds or Buick, but wasn't trying to ape an '84 Electra or Ninety-Eight.

    Is the '85 DeVille perfect? Not at all. But, it's not a bad looking car for what it is. Had the dire predictions of their time come true and we were stuck with scarce $3/gal gasoline, those cars would have been the wave of the future.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    In fact, a later run Cimarron with the V6, wheel package, composite lights, and good colors wouldn't be the most terrible car. But maybe I am crazy, I think a de-pimped 1980 bustleback Seville would be pretty cool. I also like the 105E Anglia, Lagonda, and Datsuns.

    Other hated cars named there, like the Hyundai Excel, weren't actually "ugly". It was a cheap poorly engineered car, but styling wasn't an issue.

    Almost anything from the late 50s crosses the line from ugly to cool/kitsch. 59 Buick? Best use of diagonal styling themes.

    ZDX was named, Crosstour should get an honorable mention, along with spindle grille Lexus.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think that's a mid 90s Galant.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2013
    Additives, not preservatives! :shades:

    I wonder if he ever got the Antarctic Blue Super Sports Wagon with CB and optional Rallye Fun Pack (I always thought the blue AMC Eagle shown in the gas station scene was supposed to represent the Sports Wagon)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai Excel, weren't actually "ugly"

    It's funny how other characteristics influence how we think a car "looks".

    Look at a Saab 9000 - bigger version of the Excel 5 door, and shouldn't an upscale brand's flagship be held to a higher standard?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Same stylist?

    Excel did have that kind of awkward rear quarter window, which sets it apart. But when the Excel gained flush lights (87, I think), there were definite design similarities.

    Friend of mine in high school had a Mitsu Precis, there's a rarity.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    I remember those. Probably only saw a couple of them, ever.

    Mitsubishi supplied engines to Hyundai at first. It was until the Alpha engine, in the Elantra, that they started making their own powertrains.

    So I guess Mitsubishi got crappy cars in trade for the crappy engines they supplied.

    Sounds fair to me. :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some might call it logic, but others might call it....a complete and utter lack of design talent... :P

    Following the logic of "more room" why not built a square metal box on wheels?

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I bought new both a Corsica and Beretta. I liked them both early-on, before all the funky wheels and ground effects were added, but I particularly thought early Corsicas were clean-looking--to my eyes, better than a Tempo or Topaz sedan. I didn't like when they put the dash in that accomodated an airbag, and especially didn't like the small detail where they cantilevered (is that the right word?) the taillight lenses.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I'll concede that that DeVille is probably about the best use of space that was available then...in the way that the '78 GM intermediate coupes were an excellent use of space. I think the '78 intermediate coupes looked a little nicer though.

    That is certainly a clean Coupe deVille.

    I didn't like the versions with the reduced-size rear window. It was no secret the big hole they filled in to make the 'privacy' rear window!

    Again, I did like the three-plane-in-front-of-the-driver instrument panel.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Andre, in a general way, I tend to like the Oldsmobile version of anything shared across GM divisions, the least of all, but I did like that '85/86 Olds Ninety-Eight the best of the Caddy, Electra, and Olds. I liked the taillights and the big rear wheel openings, which I guess were the traditional Olds big round openings.

    Call me a masochist (or worse), but I think I could actually enjoy a higher-end (Brougham) '78 Cutlass Salon coupe in a dark color with Super Stock wheels (factory). Not seen often then; never seen now. I rode in and drove pretty extensively a new '78 4-door Cutlass Salon Brougham and for its size, it was a very nice car. IMHO, Novas and their ilk felt like a big small car, but that Cutlass felt like a smaller big car.
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My father-in-law had a sedan (Seville I guess) that looked like that, vinyl roof and wheel covers and all.

    Not much "design" there, but you do have some advantages - visibility is great all around, and headroom is excellent.

    Look at how small the side mirror is compared to the rear glass.

    Nowadays, it's the other way around. Tiny glass, huge mirrors and mandatory backup cams since the rear windows are so tiny.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    You could probably have built the '85 Deville out of plywood for all the styling it had.

    Maybe it's just me. I still rankle whenever I think of how magnificent the Cadillac reputation once was, and how GM utterly destroyed it, perhaps forever. Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden eggs!

    From the choice of kings and arab princes and Hollywood's biggest starts, to the butt of jokes, in a mere 20 years.

    Sad, really. :cry: Sadder than Packard, sadder than Rolls and Bentley.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You can fix dents by pulling aluminum foil taut and taping it down. :D

    Of course my father-in-law only bought them because they were so cheap, used.

    Remember the Allante debacle with the guaranteed resale values? IIRC they lost $10k per car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Was the Corsica/Beretta really cross shopped with the Tempo? The Chevy seems like the nicer car to me, like a class higher.

    I remember sometime around 1995, my family had a Corsica rental. It was fairly plush, V6, seemed like a nice enough car. Burgundy on burgundy, as many were back then.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Saddest part about the Allante IMO is that in 1987, it tried to compete with a MB dating back to 1972, and couldn't do it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Fortunately Cadillac is putting out competent cars now. ATS is well received and the CTS looks good.

    Honestly, though, the handicap they have now is that faded image, as a direct result of the bad times we've been talking about.

    All things equal, people will pick a BMW or Benz over a Caddy, by brand reputation alone. Cadillac has to wow people and convert them back.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For Cadillac, early signs of another renaissance

    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130406/RETAIL/130409917/for- -cadillac-early-signs-of-another-renaissance&cciid=email-autonews-daily#axzz2PuJ- 7PNh5

    Timely article. Getting young folks in dealerships is a nice first step.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    ***putting flame suit on***

    I actually like the Allante. I know it certainly wasn't the best performer, but it has a nice 80s look.

    I know the one to get is the 93, since it has the 4.6L Northstar. The 89-92 probably aren't too bad with the 4.5, but the 87-88 with the 4.1 must be pretty slow.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I thought of Caddy before I picked up my most recent ride. Lots of value there. But, I wanted to try a large diesel sedan, and with insane lease rates and a case of "you only live once", my decision went elsewhere.

    Conversion is key. You have to offer more for less - and maybe not go the boredom route of Lexus. Once Caddy has a legitimate big halo sedan, that will help too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's not bad at all from the outside - although I think an early model I have seen had a dash that was maybe a little too 80s, and not in a cool way.

    That 4.1 competing with a 560SL, just didn't have much of a chance.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I guess I'm accustomed to more American design--although I know the Allante was Pininfarina. I liked the styling. To me, it didn't have the 'rubber baby buggy bumpers' of some Benzes at that time.
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    The Allante didn't look bad from the outside---it's when you got inside that you knew you were definitely not in a German luxury car.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,565
    .. always thought the Gremlin was decent looking..

    And, the '96 Taurus was an inspired design.... all those ovals.... It was only when they cheaped out a couple years later and started putting in rectangular rear windows, that they ruined it... I really like the wagons from that year..

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The stupid DOT-mandated bumpers on 70s designed MB were pretty unsightly. The 560SL was a 70s car that lived on until 1989, where more modern cars had nicer bumpers. And of course the new SL that debuted for the 1990 model year blew just about everything out of the water.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That Taurus might be the most 90s car - a decade known for roundness, every piece of it has a curve. Then, slowly, things got more angular, and now seem to be getting curvier again.

    In Europe, the roundy 1995+ Scorpio (Taurus relative) is as reviled as the ovoid Taurus here.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I didn't like the '96 Taurus at all, with all those ovals. But, it seemed like they cleaned it up a bit for 1998-99. And I actually liked that 2000 restyle, where they squared it off a bit. Believe it or not, that re-skin was enough to bump the car from midsize to full-size status. It had more headroom, which took passenger volume from something like 101 to 104 cubic feet, and the trunk was a bit larger, going from 16 to 17 cubic feet.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Caddy got it right, then axed it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yikes, this is a mess

    Enough buttons to satisfy even the fetish of a German, but no ergonomics.

    And the speedo stuck on 55, of course. By 1987, the continuance of that nonsense should have had legislators being put on one way trips to the gallows and guillotine. Idiocy, the good old days weren't always so good.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,280
    Lousy article, as virtually all of thse types of articles seem to be. Edmunds has really gone into decline. The killing of Inside Line seems to have exacerbated that slippage. Does anyone even read the long term articles any more?

    Anyway, the article conflates "ugly car" and "bad car" into one concept. Many of those cars are actually quite well-styled. They were just bad cars. Meanwhile, there were only 3 Subarus on that list, all of them early in the brand's lifespan, and I don't think Subaru has ever made a good-looking car, ever. And where are the 1970s "atomic cockroach" Datsuns and the Toyotas of that era - the early Coronas and the '71 Corolla, for example - as well?

    Check, please.

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  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yes, what the Dauphine lacked was ruggedness and a good parts and service network. A couple of other things that would have helped a lot would have been, (1) a fourth gear (it only had three widely spaced ones, and (2) a larger engine (something more than 850 cc).

    Had the Dauphine engine been rugged enough for U.S. interstates, had a 4-speed plus more power, in that order, it probably would have maintained its sales lead over VW in the U.S. Wouldn't you agree?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    The '85 GM large bodies were the second downsizing in 8 years. While these cars were boxy, for the sake of weight savings and space efficiency, they weren't ugly in my eyes. I thought the '85 Olds 98 was more elegant looking than the Buick Electra and Cadillac DeVille. Reliability, not looks, was the main problem with these cars, in my opinion. The new 4-speed automatic transaxles were problematic.

    Disclaimer: I owned a '85 98 Brougham. It went 155,000 miles before I junkied it, after the third transmission went. By then the steering rack was shot and the car had other needs, but all in all it was a decent car. It was roomy, comfortable, luxurious and got good gas mileage for its day. Performance was also competitive for the time.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    The '90 SL looks much better than the new one, in my opinion.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Dauphine was actually a very good automobile but it had zilch for service and parts. Sure, with some development it could have become something like the Datsun 510. Of course, rear-engines were going to be extinct by 1980 or so anyway, aside from Porsche--an entirely different league.

    The 560SL, as old as it was, was more than a match for the Allante, as new as it was. By 1989 the W107 had been so refined that those 18 years of evolution really made a difference.

    I rarely call a car "ugly"---it takes talent to make a car totally ugly---but I like to use the word "incoherent"... I think the reason people diss on certain cars is not because they are demonstrably more 'ugly' that their peers, but rather that the observer can't make any sense out of them.

    They think "ugly" but what they mean (I think) is "why was this car built in the first place?"
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Was the Corsica/Beretta really cross shopped with the Tempo?

    In my mind, anyway (!), I think they were. I always thought that the Escort was what was being sold against the Cavalier, and that the Tempo was sold against the Corsica and Beretta. Funny I think, that in the late '80's both the Corsica/Beretta and the Tempo had very distinctly different styling between the coupe and sedan versions.

    At some point, the Tempo coupe (which was the original version, unlike the sedan) became somewhat of a price-leader for Ford; I remember them being advertised new at very low prices. I can't think of when that would've been though.
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  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited April 2013
    I agree that the Dauphine had the attributes you mentioned, but wasn't it also true that, unlike the Beetle, its tiny engine couldn't stand up to the rigors of sustained high speeds (say 65-70 mph) on our interstates? Allowing for exceptions, such as the German autobahns, the European driving environment of the '60s-mid '70s was quite different from ours.

    Also relevant was that most Americans just didn't know how to drive cars with low torque engines, as they were designed to be driven. Many American drivers who even drove stick shifts tended to lug their engines (for example, they didn't downshift after turning a 90 degree corner of a city street, content to let the high torque of their relatively large displacement engines compensate for their laziness). Since the Beetle had a low stress engine, and low performance to match, it practically forced the driver to downshift, but the Dauphine and most other small European cars weren't as forgiving, because they reached their maximum torque at higher rpms than the Beetle.

    Would you agree that the combination of American roads and driving styles were a poor match for the Dauphine, and that this, in addition to poor parts and service, caused it to quickly relinquish its sales lead?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Believe me, if Cadillac would've kept going in this direction, I most likely would be driving a Mercedes or Lexus today. That thing looks like one of those ungainly Russian copies of an American car. This looks like a Cadillac if it was designed by ZIL.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >Lousy article, as virtually all of thse types of articles seem to be. Edmunds has really gone into decline. The killing of Inside Line seems to have exacerbated that slippage.

    This collection of pictures turned me off as being unrealistic quickly as I started through. When I hit the 1958-60 Thunderbird as ugly and read the blurb, I knew the list of a full of horse manure. The blurbs were written by someone trying to Comedy Central. Not professional. The Thunderbird represented a lot of what people wanted in that period of time. It's odd to make fun of it out of context.

    >And where are the 1970s "atomic cockroach" Datsuns and the Toyotas of that era - the early Coronas and the '71 Corolla, for example - as well?

    And the lack of the foreign cars shows more problems.

    Was the list done by someone under the age of 21 who has no idea of the environment within which some of these cars developed?

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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had good look with a 1988 Buick Park Avenue. The fuel economy was phenomenal, the car was very space-efficient, visibility was awesome, and the car was extremely relable. The paint, however, was attrocious. Still miss it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Funny I think, that in the late '80's both the Corsica/Beretta and the Tempo had very distinctly different styling between the coupe and sedan versions.

    For 1988, the Tempo and Topaz sedans got a revised roofline and rear end. They were less jellybean shaped, and a bit more crisp and angular...almost GM-like. But the coupes stuck it out with the 1984 sheetmetal. Anything that was updated, like the grille and taillights, was just easy-swap stuff that would probably bolt right in to the older coupes.

    I had a friend whose parents tended to buy cheap cars and hold onto them for what seemed like forever, even though they were pretty well off financially. In 1982, when I met him in 7th grade, his Mom had a '72 Satellite wagon and his Dad drove an early 70's Comet. I think it was a coupe but can't remember. By 1982 (1983 model year) standards, those things looked positively ancient! I pretty much lost contact with him when we went to different high schools, but ran into his father a few times in the 1990's. By that time, the father was driving a 1988 or newer Tempo sedan, and a pretty cheap one, at that. Just remembering back to the Comet he had, and knowing that Tempo was its replacement, made me associate it with being "cheap".

    My stepdad had a 1984 Tempo coupe, a GL model I think. I hated it because I thought it was ugly. And, the one time I drove it, it was horribly slow. Consumer Guide got a 1985 Topaz to do 0-60 in about 15.9 seconds, and I think they were being generous! I think he paid about $10,000 for it. It had an automatic, crank windows, nice stereo. I vaguely remember the seats were fairly nice fabric, and it had carpet on the lower door panels, but the uppers were vinyl. They got it to around 160,000 miles, and then got $600 when they traded for a 1991 Stanza.

    As for hierarchy, back in the 1980's at least, I always associated the Cavalier, Tempo, and Aries/Reliant as competitors, while the Escort duked it out with the Chevette (and Spectrum and Toyota Nova) and Omni/Horizon.

    In midsized cars, I put the Celebrity up against the 1982 Granada, 1983-86 small LTD, and then the Taurus, while at Chrysler is was more against the likes of the Dodge 600 and Plymouth Caravelle.

    As for the Corsica/Beretta, to me they fell in between somewhere...bigger than the Cavalier, smaller than the Celebrity, and not really in direct competition from anything from Ford or Mopar, even though they were certainly cross-shopped.

    When you figure though, that the Corsica/Beretta replaced the old Citation, which in turn replaced the Nova, is "should" have competed with the Aries/Reliant, which replaced the old Aspen/Volare, and the Tempo, which replaced the Fairmont, which itself replaced the old Maverick.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    One thing I remember about your Park Ave, from the once or twice I sat in it, was that while the front seat really didn't seem to go back all that far, it sat up pretty high, so legroom was still good in my opinion. In contrast, from what I remember of my grandmother's '85 LeSabre (and would probably apply to any RWD GM B/C/D body from that era) was that the seat seemed to go back further, but the position was a bit lower.

    Legroom in the back was great, as I recall. Better than the B-body. Maybe even on par with a RWD Electra or Ninety-Eight, or DeVille/Fleetwood.

    However, shoulder room was down by a couple inches, and in my opinion, that's what kept the cars from really feeling "full sized" inside.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    In midsized cars, I put the Celebrity up against the 1982 Granada, 1983-86 small LTD, and then the Taurus, while at Chrysler is was more against the likes of the Dodge 600 and Plymouth Caravelle.

    Thinking about the Celebrity, and then 600/Caravelle it shows you how much better the 86 Taurus was. I have to say though I'd take the 600/Caravelle over and fox body LTD or Celebrity if I was forced to choose.

    My Stepdad had an 83 Chrysler E-class. It still drove decent when I started driving in 1994.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    edited April 2013
    I have to say though I'd take the 600/Caravelle over and fox body LTD or Celebrity if I was forced to choose.

    Truth be told, I probably would, as well. One of my relatives had a 1986 or so Dodge 600 sedan. She drove it down from PA to attend my Granddad's funeral back in 1990, and they let me drive it in the funeral procession. Odd thing to remember, I know, and maybe even a bit morbid, as cars should have been the last thing on my mind...but I liked the way it rode and drove, and the interior comfort.

    My other grandparents, on my Dad's side of the family, had a 1985 LTD, and when I had my learner's permit I logged a lot of miles practicing driving and parallel parking with it. I actually liked it, because it was easier to park than my Mom's 1980 Malibu coupe. Even though it was a bit longer, it was narrower and had a shorter wheelbase, and felt like it turned tighter. But overall the Malibu felt like a more solid, substantial, roomy car.

    I think Chrysler was able to save a lot of money on development costs, with so many cars being on the same K-car platform, and that allowed them to put a bit more effort into the interiors.

    My grandparents also had a 1989 Taurus LX, which replaced the LTD, and that sucker made just about everything else on the market seem ancient! And, they traded it for a 1994, so they didn't have it long enough for it to start having problems such as chewed-up transmissions and blown head gaskets, so I have fond memories of it!

    I think one shortcoming of the 600/Caravelle was that they never offered a V-6 option, relying instead on turbo 2.2 and 2.5 4-cyl engines. Now, the turbo was plenty quick, and probably still more than a match for anything V-6 powered in its class. But, it required premium fuel, and had the potential for more repair issues. And, if you're used to just tapping the pedal and having power on demand, having to stomp it to get that power out of the turbo takes some getting used to.

    Oh, and the 600/Caravelle never got a 4-speed automatic as far as I know, but considering how unreliable those things could be, that might be considered a plus!

    If I was looking for a midsized sedan in the mid/late 80's though, I think I would've stuck it out old school, and gone with a Bonneville G with a 305 or Cutlass Supreme with a 307, or a Gran Fury/Diplomat, which had a standard 318 by then. Depending on how late in the 80's though, my only choice might have been the Mopars, as the Bonneville's last year was '86, and the Cutlass Supreme sedan's final year was 1987.

    I always thought it a bit odd that Olds held onto the Supreme sedan for so long. Chevy dropped the Malibu after 1983 and Buick dropped the Regal sedan after 1984.

    That would have given Olds four different sedans in roughly the same size class for buyers to choose from...Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, 88, and 98. Even though two of those were midsize and two were full-size, the Supreme sedan was actually the longest by a slight margin, trunk volume was about the same for all four (around 16 cubic feet), and the reduced shoulder room of the 88/98 meant that none of them were really comfy 6-seaters. And, even though it wasn't all that powerful, the Cutlass Supreme was the only one left with the "prestige" of a V-8.

    I wonder if if was that kind of muddling up that ultimately planted the seeds for Oldsmobile's demise. Once upon a time, you went to the dealer, and as you moved up the price ladder, you got a bigger car, bigger interior (one exception being niche products like the Toro/Eldo/Riv or Seville), bigger engine, etc.

    But by 1987 the biggest car wasn't the most expensive, and the most expensive didn't have the biggest engine. Further, the most expensive and the cheapest were sharing the same engine...at least, by that time, I think you could still get the 3.8 in a Ciera)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Truth be told..."

    I assumed all your statements were truthful.
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