I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

Mr_Shiftright

Most likely botched repair, yes. On unibody cars if you crunch them, especially in a severe side hit, and you don't restore integrity properly, the car is basically done for---unfixable.

I suspect that targa was T-boned and welded up hodge-podge, bondo-ed in, and then slathered in undercoating all around. Seeing it on the ground I should have noticed the door and roof gaps. Porsche fit and finish is impeccable and there should be no variation in gaps anywhere on the car.

Oh, I like Nissan Patrols!

that nice fintail is now at $3,500. I think it will price out just about where we said it would....$4,500-$5,000.

So where's the Edsel wagon at? I saw one sell at auction for an incredible, crazy $22,000....I guess all you need is two hungry people with a few too many glasses of beer just before the paddles go up.

Has the day of the "geek car" arrived? Nash Metro owners, get out the wax!

andys120

According to what I read, the Geek cars of the 70s--
Gremlins, Pintos, Pacers and the like are being snapped up by nostalgia buffs who grew up in the 70's.

What's next? A run up in Yugo prices by folks who grew up in the 80's?

Mr_Shiftright

Well, 'snapped up' is sometimes followed by "coughed up" when the values don't go anywhere, but I think there has been a rise in interest, from zero to some. Still, we aren't talking big bucks here.

Here's an auction run by a real optimist:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2468371188&category=6126

"I have also been told that the floors are pretty easy to swap out"

and

"This is a huge project, not for the faint of heart, but wow it must have been an amazing car in its day"

yeah, and its day is OVER!

Here's one of them "hot" Pacers...it took three days of bidding to get to $600 dollars and he wants $4,000 for this roach. Look at the pix of the interior and see what the new definition of "great condition" is.

I especially like the line

fintail

If that fitail is as good as it looks, 5K is a good price for buyer and seller. I still think there is a good chance it will go back home

The Edsel went for $9700, which seems to be a good price too. I am sure 10 years ago nobody imagined wagons would become hot. If that Edsel is as nice as it looks, someone will have a fun car and a crowd pleaser at 50s shows.

Would a run up in Yugo prices have them breaking the $100 barrier?

I saw a few nice cars today. A pretty c.68 maroon Firebird convert, a c.67 Stingray, a c.61 Corvette, a 50s style custom 51 Mercury, an Alfa 1750, a full size c.60 Ford panel truck, and a pretty fintail and 126 ....oops, those are mine.

Also, as a strange coincidence, I saw 2 Subaru XT6s today, a silver one and a blue one. Both were in pretty decent shape, given their age.

Mr_Shiftright

Must have been the annual national gathering.

Damn, we shoulda bought that Edsel if it was as good as it looked. There was profit left in that car I think.

jrosasmc

Here's a relatively rare bird: I was down in New Jersey today and we parked next to an early '90s Lexus ES300. But this car had a 5-speed manual, which is the first ES300 I've ever seen with that setup. Every single one I've noticed has an automatic.

fintail

If I had 10 grand to blow on a land yacht, that Edsel would be as good of choice as any. If it had actually gone for the 4 grand it was at when I found it, there's a good chance I might have bought it. Somehow, I really liked that old thing. I think there's some profit to be had, too. Give it a good thorough detail and it would be a winner.

Was the ES you saw the rounded 92-on one or the boxier first gen? Or were the boxier ones only an ES250? If it's a rounded one, I think that is very unusual.

jrosasmc

The ES I saw was the newer, rounded one, maybe a '92 or '93.

lancerfixer

I'm not sure how to react to this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- - - - - - - =2468281472&category=6008

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Ooh...an '87 944 automatic. Sign me up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2468327107&category=6434

The MacGyvered-in Chrysler stereo is a nice touch.

------------------------

Yes, I know it's ugly and probably doesn't drive too nice and is hard to find parts for and wasn't popular when it was new and blah blah blah...I still wouldn't mind one. The "WTF is that?" factor among the unsuspecting public is pretty darned high, and that's gotta count for something. I know there are cheaper ways to get that. I don't care.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2468345076&category=5358

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fintail

That BMW could be kinda fun, in a weird way. That Aston is hideous, never liked those...bad colors and a weird style don't match. You would shock people, though. I am sure that 944 is nothing but a money pit.

fintail

It's that time again...

Mercedes W113 230SL with 108 headlights? No! This car will likely cost a fortune to get right

Somehow, I like this. I think you could do a lot worse for the money

Another highline BMC Farina

Very neat Hudson

A bit steep for a fancy K Car, even with the ownership

Another project for woodworkers. I suppose you could break even if you did the work yourself

Nothin like an early 80s neo-classic

This is a very charming little car...certainly worth saving. Love the pillarless doors

Hey Andre, here's one for you

Ugly ugly ugly, it even looks unfriendly

Another 1960 Edsel, this time a really rare one. Look at those rear quarter panels!

Now for the UK based stuff

This is an oddball

These are interesting

This is just a rebadged Civic, and in a way represents some of the final proof of the death of the Triumph marque.

Nice Alfa...brought a healthy price

I can hear it rusting all the way from here! I wonder how many of these survived. Cool in a way.

I dunno how "rapid" it is, but it is odd

Mr_Shiftright

fintail

The Lancia Beta is a piece of crap.

That's not an Alfa you posted, shame on you. That's a Lancia with Zagato coachwork. Weirdo car, never saw one, and can't make up my mind. I think it's kinda unattractive but I'd have to see it in person.

I love that line in the Ami 6 ad:

"Prepare yourself heads are going to turn on your way"

Yes, but not in a good way--lol! If I were rich and eccentric (well I'm halfway there!) I'd go around the world buying Ami 6s and crushing them for the good of mankind.

The Packard woody is valuable when restored but I also don't see how anyone is going to come out on this one unless they buy it for parts for a better car. Otherwise, it's spend $100K to make $60K.

The Mercedes 230SL is scary. Boneyard car. It's a 280SL you want to restore, worth much more and a much better car. Let's see, redo body and paint, $10-15K, redo fuel injection pump $2,000, overhaul motor and transmission $12,000, redo entire interior $6,000, new top $1,500, new weatherstripping, tires, hoses, belts, seals, brakes, gas tank $7,500....re-chroming $5,000, rewiring to correct mouse chewing, $5,000.....phew....and then sell it for $18,000!!

Hupmobile -- a very ordinary car, but they actually hung onto life until 1941. Another Depression Era victim, of which there were many, many who went down.

lancefixer -- the achilles heel of those Lagondas is the digital dash. Once it goes out, you are pretty much doomed to either junking the car or perhaps finding some genius out there who is still alive and willing to fix it for $10,000 or so....until it burns out again next week.

WEll the "Bimmerlet" might be okay...I mean, the original car is just an old used BMW 4-door German sedan and has no real value, so no harm done to automotive history. Usually when something major goes on these cars they are immediately junked anyway. It's odd he did all that work to a car that isn't very sharp cosmetically. I'm sure it's nose heavy and louder than original, but as long as the 350 is stock, it shouldn't rip the guts out of the car or anything. I'd say "an interesting effort" but I wouldn't encourage it on a 635i coupe or any M car.

fintail

Oops....I guess I was thinking that Lancia looks like an Alfa. Little slipup there.

It amazes me what people think about some old MB. A 230SL or a 280SL are both fairly common, and either in that condition would be a stretch to save. 4 grand already for that 230 that appears to need everything. Amazing.

I think I would like to have an early car like that Hupmobile, or even something older. At a local car show last year a couple 1905 Cadillacs showed up...they were really charming old cars.

Mr_Shiftright

20s cars are practically give-aways these days. Most of the people who like them have passed away and so the estates are trying to sell them for whatever they can get. Nobody is much interested in them anymore, since 20s cars are generally, with some exceptions, pretty homely. This was before they figured out how to do large metal stampings and hence nice curvy bodies. The Budd Company (Pullman railroad car makers) figured that out for the auto industry in the 1930s.

The $4K bid on the 230SL is already a loser's game. Hopeless car.

by the way, Porsche 944s are very competent cars, good handlers and very decent performance. The problem is that they are maintenance-intensive for what you own there.

ghulet

...but an automatic transmission takes away at least half the fun of driving a 944. No, thanks. These cars only have 147hp to begin with, so ya gotta keep them reving to make much speed. My stepdad just drove his (a 5-speed) from Indy to Reno, the car is a surprisingly reliable daily driver (it has ~200k miles), but yes, not cheap to keep (mom bought it new, I'll have to find a calculator with a long tape to add up the repairs). Between this car and Mom's 300E with ~350k, there's a good case to call them masochists.

Wow, fintail, how much time DO you spend on eBay? I know, probably no less than I do.

Where do I start?

What reason would someone have (a long time ago, even) to put the 108 headlights on an SL? Was this some sort of misguided attempt at federalization? Well, at least it's a 4-speed.

The Packard (woody) Station Sedan is neat. Looks like a bit of a handful to restore, but the car doesn't look too far gone. I don't imagine parts (especially those wagon-specific) are easy or cheap to acquire, though.

So Sinatra bought a used '86 K-car limo in '89? Not even an S-class, Cadillac or Lincoln? Was this the maid's car or something? Jeez, Louise and starting bid is only overpriced by a factor of fifteen or so.

I wonder if that Triumph has the same transmission as contemporary Civics, the infamous Hondamatic. Ooo-wee, electic windows, too. Shudder.

That '60 Edsel convertible is a big ol' mess, but with production of exactly 76 units, certainly worth restoring IF you can find a parts car or at least some fenders.

Nissan Figaro, pretty cool, though the combination of baby blue paint and automatic trans scream 'chickmobile'. Wonder why Nissan didn't/couldn't import them here, it would have eclipsed the U.S. retro-car trend by some seven years.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably too expensive to meet US safety standards and emission standards; besides, Americans really don't like small cars as a rule and they are liking them less and less it seems.

My dream was always to have a car I could drive into the house or office and keep an eye on. At present, it would have to be no more than 55" wide and no more than 10 feet long, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated. I figured I could bring it through the double doors in my office building (yes, I measured) late at night and I would build a big worktable for it to go under, then trim the table with canvas so that you couldn't see the car....then, when darkness falls and the moon is full.....

fintail

I have noticed that the real-old car market is going away. I can look at old issues of Hemmings from the late 70s/early 80s and see 20s material going for more than it would today. I think some of those cars could be fun toys. I have noticed that the really early - maybe pre 1910 or 1905 - cars are still holding some value.

I am sure a 944 is a fine car, but not a well-worn automatic with questionable maintenance. No Porsche person would create that stereo setup.

Once a week or so I sit down for an hour in the evening and cruise through ebay, looking out for oddballs. I also occasionally look for bits and pieces for my own cars. You can get some great deals.

It's interesting that the 4 speed in that SL makes it marginally more desireable, but not hugely. The good ones are 5 speeds from the late 60s.

andre1969

And I see it's just in Richmond, which is only about 2 hours away! ;-) That's actually a 5th Avenue edition, which in '81 was expanded to offer colors other than just the 2-tone creme. The '79-80 5th Ave also had nicer, less pimpy but also less overstuffed leather seats, that were unique to the model. Too many buyers though, WANTED those overstuffed seats with the little buttons, and were upset that they weren't available on the 5th Ave. So for '81, Chrysler switched up and put the nicer looking seats on the cheaper NYers and the pimpy, buttoned stuff on the NYer. And they say Detroit doesn't give the public what they want! ;-)

It also looks like they made a minor improvement here and there by 1981. The '79 models had a pull-strap on the door that was easy to break, whereas the '81 looks much sturdier.

I kinda wish I had the money to blow on something like that right now. I wonder how much it'll go for? I ended up paying $900 for my '79 5th Ave. I know it's hard to tell in pictures, but this one does look like it's in better shape. Although by '81, they also added a bunch of computer crap, smogged them down even worse, added taller gearing, and went from a 150 hp 360 down to a 130 hp 318. That's progress!

andre1969

I'd imagine that '68 Bonneville with the bucket seats and the floor shifter must be rare indeed. Even in the sportier styles, like the 2-door hardtop and the convertible, most of the ones I've seen were a bench. Oh yeah, considering I've owned 2 full-sized Pontiacs from this timeframe (a '67 Catalina and a '69 Bonneville) I should know this, but I don't...what's a "strato-bench"?

tarik

My dream was always to have a car I could drive into the house or office...it would have to be no more than 55" wide and no more than 10 feet long...I figured I could bring it through the double doors in my office building (yes, I measured) late at night...

If you can help a little with the width (59 1/2"), the 8'2 1/2" long Smart FourTwo could be the ticket.



Fortunatley, there's also a Brabus version, which will get you to the inbox and back faster with its turbo charged 75hp engine. Simply splendid...

jlawrence01

>>Nissan Figaro, pretty cool, though the combination of baby blue paint and automatic trans scream 'chickmobile'.<<

I thought that car pretty cool myself. I am VERY happy that I have a 2.5 car garage which limits me from buying another vehicle (g).

By the way, Nissan had a few cars that they did not import into the US. One that I liked was in the late '80s, the Nissan Micra.

fintail

Funny thing...they did sell the Micra in Canada. So if you wanted one...you could get one easily enough LOL

ghulet

...was basically a normal, one-piece bench seat on the bottom with bucket backs on top, separated by a large folding armrest. It was designed to give the look of buckets with the armrest down and the seating capacity of a bench with the armrest up. Here's a picture (scroll down to the third picture on the left, out of a '66 Riviera).

http://www.rivowners.org/features/evolution/evpt66.html

I don't think it was available on all GM cars, but was commonly seen on the sport-luxury and 'specialty' models, i.e. Riviera, Toronado, Starfire, Eldorado, Caprice, Grand Prix, Wildcat, Bonneville and rarely on Camaro and Firebird, from roughly '65-68. I think once headrests became federally mandated on the '69 models, the stratobench was history.

stickguy

for some reason, every time you cruise through Ebay, I think of the movie Deliverance.

stickguy

local repair shop has an old one sitting by the road. haven't stopped to look (it would make me miss the off ramp for Walmart), but it is one of the late-60s-ish 2 door wagons. Maybe a 93? Doesn't look to be in particulartly great shape.

Certainly not something you see everyday in NJ.

stickguy

did a quick search, and the most likely culprit is the 95, since it is the only one of the older models with a back end that looks about right. Don't think it was a 93, and didn't look like the front end form a 96.

Have to stop in some day and look at it.

wimsey1

I think an original Mini might come close on your dimensions. I think they were a bit over 4 ft wide and a tick over 10 ft long. And a Cooper S has to be it for fun from all I've heard!
Or a Messerschmidt TG500. Pray for sun.

Mr_Shiftright

tarik--wimsey/ thanks for those suggestions. An original Mini Cooper S is a hoot to drive--maybe the most fun a human being can have in a car.
Downside? They seem to break a lot.

Can't use 59 &1/2", then I'd have to unhinge the office building doors (those damn bar handles).

RE: SLs---a 4 speed is worth an extra $1,500 or so, a 5-speed maybe $3,000. Problem is they aren't very precise shifters, more like moving an oar around in a 55-gallon drum.

fintail

I thought a 5 speed would be worth more...they seem to bring about 5 grand on the market by themselves, or so I have seen advertised

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe $5,000 on a really stand up show car. But there are tons of 280SLs out there, the majority of them rather ordinary in condition. So no one's going to pay 1/4 the value of the entire car for the transmission.

The reason they want the 5 speed is because the car is so wound up at 70 mph its really annoying to drive long distances. The 5 speed solves that. So it's not done for sport (it's an awful shifter) but for peace and quiet. I'd sure buy one if I had a 280SL.

fintail

I saw a ZF with an asking price of 5K for the unit alone. I know they can be used in 300SEs as well.

An extra gear would be nice though, even in the fintail with the auto. With the second gear start and early upshifting, it does get buzzy at faster freeway speeds.

fintail

Oh that fintail on ebay brought $4850, but didn't hit reserve

ghulet

...from post #2881 ended up selling for $581, which, depending on how you look at it, is either:

a. a lot of money for a non-running old car in need of pretty much a full restoration, or
b. not much at all for an interesting, though probably never too valuable, complete old car in need of some work

Mr_Shiftright

$4850 is market correct, if not a tad generous. Seller shoulda took it. You know, if all of Ebay chokes on your reserve price, you really have to take a hard look at your pricing, given the propensity of Ebay bidders to often over-bid on things.

fintail

I don't think that Bonneville was bad. It's a simple car than an amateur backyard restorer can do much of the work on himself. You could even do a good amateur paint job on it and not hurt it. You'd have to be a Pontiac fan/histoian to want it...someone will.

I think that's a fair price for both fintail parties too. It's a nice car, but a lower-line car, and it's still just an old sedan. The seller is in NYC, maybe there's some inflated sense of value there as everything else costs so much. I will see if it gets relisted.

andre1969

I've always liked 4-door hardtops. For some reason though, I never was a huge fan of the '68 Pontiacs. I absolutely LOVE the '67...that's probably my favorite year of the big 60's Pontiacs ('61 would probably be a close second), and I like the '69 as well, but something about the '68 just looked awkward. Just little details, I guess, like the beak being too big, and the taillights being stretched out too far over the '67. But where the '67 was about as sporty as a big car could get, the '68 just looked dowdy. In '69 they integrated the beak much better, and the new sheetmetal was just sleeker.

Still, that '68 was cool. I like the color, and the floor shift and bucket seats are cool!

ghulet

I kinda liked that 'particular' '68, if I had somewhere to keep it, and the time/money to fix it up even somewhat, I'd have jumped on it. I don't like turquoisey paint so much, but the white vinyl buckets and floor shift on basically a big-ol-boat 4-door are very intriguing. It's a reasonably modern tank, easy and cheap on parts, with just enough 'cool old factor', me likey, but then I'm a big sucker for full-size GMs of that era. The '68s are not the nicest looking big Pontiacs, the '67 taillight treatment is much nicer, but I dislike the front end of both '67 and '68 (67 is better though, and at least is more distinctive). I'd really love a '65 or '66, they're stunning. Generally 4-door hardtops have always been my favorite body style, I think they deserve a bit more attention in most cases.

Anywho, IMO $581 is a super bargain, especially since it at least seemed like the car was complete and just in need of minor help to get rolling, and the cosmetics don't look too major. Of course, hopefully the buyer will fix it up a bit, not overspend or over-restore and just have a nice, interesting, somewhat rare (cuz of the buckets, mostly) ride for the money in the end. I always like the better optioned '65-68 GM tanks because they're all over the place, some have huge engines and not much else, others are loaded with wierdo creature comforts, most of which were recent additons (i.e. dumb stuff like factory console 8-tracks w/reverb, tilt/tele wheels, cornering lamps, 19 different upholsteries) and some have all or none. It's really the lone era where performance, styling and luxury were all emphasized at the same time successfully.

andys120

Seen on a small lawn in junk condition with no headlights, trim missing and paint faded to a flat brick red.

New Englanders have a habit of putting things like that on their lawn without a "for Sale" sign.
They want to be able to say to anyone that inquires "Well, it's not really for sale, ya know
but what you give for it?"

I'm trying to figure out why my neighbor that recently got rid of all the worthless trash cars in his yard recently acquired a hulk of an Isuzu Trooper that looks like it had been in a crusher that got turned of at the point of half destruction.

There is nothing salvageable on this car, not even headlights or tailights, not even a trim piece?????????????

Naturally it sits right in front of his house where it excercises the maximum negative effect on property values.

wimsey1

Saw it being driven yesterday. It was black, sharp and quiet.

lancerfixer

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2469394306&category=6417

andre1969

I always liked the '57 Pontiacs in general, and especially the '57 Bonneville. IIRC, those Bonnevilles stickered for something like $5700, which put them well into Cadillac/Lincoln/Imperial territory, and considerably more than what the king of this category, the Chrysler 300C would have stickered for.

I actually prefer a '57 Pontiac to a '57 Chevy. I think part of the reason is that, comparatively speaking, everybody and his mother has a '57 Chevy, so I see them all the time, where a '57 Pontiac is a much more rare breed. Also, I think the additional length added to the GM "A" body benefits it greatly.

fintail

That's a beautiful car. I don't know what it is really worth, but it is beautiful.

Is that a FI car? What does the badge on the front fender say? In the town where I grew up, and older couple had a 57 Pontiac convertible, and it was FI.

andre1969

the Bonneville was fuel injected. I believe the Bonneville was the only Pontiac in '57 that came with FI, so most likely that older couple had a Bonneville!

andre1969

that even with fuel injection, the Bonneville only put out something like 315 hp. Isn't that a bit low, for something displacing 347 cubic inches, that's supposed to be a high performance automobile?

In comparison, the 300C put out 375 hp from its 392 Hemi, with a 390 hp option, and the DeSoto Adventurer got 345 hp out of a 345 Hemi. Even the tamer 341 Hemi was good for 270 hp with a 2-bbl, and 295 with a single 4-bbl.

And I think the D-500 option for Dodge, with a 354 Chrysler Hemi, was good for up to 340 hp.

fintail

Oops, now that I re-read the description, I see that mentioned. Guess I was too distracted by the pics.

That car is the same colors as the one that I knew of too. Almost makes me wonder if it is the same car, but I know the people had it up through 1997 at least.

Maybe that early FI just wasn't so efficient. My fintail gets about 140hp out of 2195 cc...I think that is 134 c.i. Didn't a Chevy 283 with FI put out 283hp? Maybe the ratio of FI power decreased as size increased

andre1969

the Chevy 283 put out 283 hp. Chrysler tried fuel injection in '58, but it wasn't very reliable. Still, the '58 Adventurer, with a 361 Wedge, got 355 hp with FI, and either 345 or 350 (can't remember which) with 2-4bbls.

The Chrysler 300D, with a 392 Hemi, got 380 hp with a 2-4bbls, and 390 hp with FI (although in '57 there was a specially tuned, not very streetable 2-4bbl that also put out 390 hp)

fintail

Maybe it just wasn't tuned optimally. What did the normal version put out?

It's a shame FI wasn't developed further by the domestics at that time. Seems to have been a passing fad in 57-58, save for the limited amounts of Vettes that had it up through 63-64(?).

andre1969

what the "normal" 347's put out. I remember reading though, that when it came out for '55, Pontiac's 347 was generally viewed to be a bit of a letdown, overshadowed by Chevy's 265 V-8.

Searching around online, I found a '57 Pontiac Star Chief convertible that had a 240 hp 4bbl 347. I think the base models had something like 217 or 227 hp. By '58 though, I think some of the 347's were up to 280 hp, with a single 4-bbl. It wasn't until '59, when the engine was enlarged to a 389, that it really started showing off its performance potential.

I think the problem with fuel injection is that it was just expensive. I dunno what FI on a '57 Chevy cost (and it was factored into the cost of a '57 Bonneville, I guess), but I think on the '58 Mopars it added something like $400 or more! That's a helluva a lot of money to pay just for 10 extra hp, only to have your car recalled and then retrofitted with dual quads! I wonder if those Mopar owners got a refund?

Even by '75, fuel injection was an expensive, $600 option on the Cadillac 500 V-8. In contrast, their "air cushion restraint", which was actually a dual airbag system, was "only" $300! To me, the airbags sound like a comparative bargain, especially when you see prices like $188 for a reclining seat, $100 for cruise control, and $229 for an "AM/FM stereo with tape" (probably an 8-track!)

andys120

and finicky. IIRC the top carbuerated 'Vette motors were just a few HP shy of the fuelie.

It took electronic controls and emissions limits to give FI an economic and practical advantage over the tried and true carbs.

Mr_Shiftright

Benz mechanical injection in 1955 was pretty good actually but it tended to load up at low rpm. That's why you really have to shove your foot into the Boschware on a Gullwing.

You really can't make direct proportional comparisons in HP between smaller engines and larger ones since as the engine grows in size pumping losses become a big factor.

I think some of the early American injection systems even used vacuum tubes like on old TV sets. It must have been a hostile environment in that engine bay for that type of analog electronics.

What's that Pontiac worth? Well, I'd have to see it and I'd have to see the documentation and the quality / authenticity of the restoration, but $80,000 seems about right. Any more than that and you might be ahead of the market for a while--but even if you "overpay", as they say--"go find another one then".

Little old lady with FI? Hmmmm........well maybe she wasn't so old when she bought it!