I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

but in '57 I think the 283 with dual quads had something like 270 or 275 hp? So FI only gave you like 8-13 more hp.

I still think that Bonneville with 315 hp sounds a bit weak, though, compared to its contemporaries, as there were similarly-sized and larger engines that put out more hp per cubic inch. After all, the first car to break the 1 hp per cubic inch barrier was a similarly sized 354 Hemi, which in '56 put out 340 hp standard, and 355 with optional tuning.

Didn't one of the buff rags to a comparison test between a Bonneville and a 300C back when they were new? I thought I ran across it online once, but damned if I could find it now!

andys120

the chopped roof 242-based cars from IIRC the late 70s, seen together outside a local body shop.
One was in near wreck condition, the other faded and tired looking but otherwise straight.

These were very odd cars, the whole idea of overlaying "Italian" styling on the car that was the antithesis of styling being IMO screwy.

The regular 240 at least offered generous headroom and four doors to go with it's utilitarian personality. Taking away 2 doors and subtracting headroom doesn't exactly yield a sport coupe. This was the 70s equivalent of Bling-bling wheels and sill extensions, I guess.

There was a later Bertone Volvo based on the 740-760 in the late '80s or early 90s that left the roof height unchanged.

lancerfixer

Not only that, Andy, but in the late 70s/early 80s, a regular 240 coupe was offered without the hideous chop job. I can't figure out why any customer would see the two sitting side by side in a showroom and say, "I'll take the one with the chopped vinyl roof."

The 780 Bertone was a much nicer looking car, and a better interpretation of the 700 series, IMHO. Of course, I'd take a nice C70 'vert over either of them...

andre1969

but those 70's 240-based ones are too pimpy for my tastes! I think for pimpy to really work in the 70's, it had to come from the factory that way, such as just about any Cadillac, Lincoln, or full-sized luxury Mopar from that timeframe. Those '70's Bertones are to pimpiness about what putting a fart-can on an '86 Civic is to ri- -er, I mean, "starching" ;-)

oregonboy

I don't know the specs, but would a Honda S 600/800 roadster perhaps "fit" the bill?

james

fintail

I don't know how finicky the American systems were, but I do know I would MUCH rather have an injected fintail than a carb'd version. So much easier to drive and work on. I've had that car for 10 years now...have never done more than change the fuel filter and adjust the idle speed - which is as simple as turning a screw, literally.

Today I saw a decent Subaru SVX and a Saab 99 5-door hatch. I had a toy Saab like that when I was little...I vividly remember playing with it in the sand at the beach one summer. The car then ended up rusting on the bottom...no joke, and it fell apart and ended up in my "junkyard crusher", which was an old treadle sewing machine. I wish I had those cars back.

jrosasmc

Andy- The Bertone Volvo coupe from the late '80s was the 780. I still see some on the road every now and then. And I think that they were the best-looking Volvo for a while until the 850 came out in '93.

Mr_Shiftright

oregonboy--lessee...a Honda 600 is...<flip> <flip>.....52.5 inches wide, 52.4 inches high and 125 inches long. Hey, that's just about right!

An MG Midget is 137 inches long but only 49 inches high and 53 inches wide.

A Fiat 500 is only 116 inches long, 52.2 inches high and 52 inches wide.

All kinds of possibilities

andre1969

that the bidding has been going up on that '81 NYer 5th Ave that Fintail posted a few days ago...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1- &category=6178&item=2468272658

28 bids so far and the price is up to $3500. Looks like more people are interested in this car now than when it was new!!

fintail

Wow...I am shocked that Chrysler is so high. It's not a bad looking old car, but still.

This is the most beautiful ponton convert I have seen. The colors are perfect and the woodwork looks amazing. I'd love to have it

andys120

That is a beautiful 220SE and the color combo is great. I wonder if it'll sell north of $50k?

Mr_Shiftright

Well if the car were properly and accurately restored, it should break $50K easily because it is an SE and not an S. The SE will bring considerably more money as one gets more power and also avoids the diabolical Benz carburators.

But if you read this ad closely, it seems evident that it is not a full restoration and that there are things not "right" and perhaps the entire chassis underneath has not been worked on.

Sooooo...as a "body on" restoration with incorrect carpeting and indeterminate condition of engine and transmission, he may have to content himself with the lower end of the market range, in the $45K-$55K department. Sounds like he's fishing for $65K or so but I'm not sure he'll get that on Ebay.

There are plenty of old Benzes out there and buyers are very fussy in the #2/#1 departments.

Nice driving car, though and with the SE equipment, decent enough for modern highway speeds.

I hope he has photos of the stripped body. That would be critical to the sale.

andre1969

I'm just curious...how much hp would the engine have by that time? How much would one of those things weigh? I'm just trying to get a rough idea of what it would be like to drive something like that...

Mr_Shiftright

SAE HP is about 135, weight around 3,240 lbs. The 0-60 would be around 14-15 seconds.

So we'd have to say "leisurely but not pathetic". It's no slower than a 190SL "sportscar".

A contemporary 300SL roadster will do 0-60 in 7.2 seconds, so no contest there!

You'd probably have little beads of sweat on your forehead getting onto a LA freeway.

nolid5

you guys were talking about a Volvo 780 Bertone and I just came back form the bank and in the lot was a deep red one in nice shape. I agree this one is much nicer looking than the one pimped out with the chopped roof.

andys120

that Bertone "did" to make the 780 Coupe a Bertone. Other than dropping the back doors and changing the angle of the C pillars it looks buch like a sedan.

Oh, and there's the stylized b at the base of each C pillar.

Nice racket being an Italian designer.

andre1969

that actually doesn't sound too bad, all things considered. I had no idea those cars were that light though...just looking at the pics, I would've figured a lot more than just 3240 lb!

andre1969

into making that 780 coupe. Usually, a coupe is lower than its sedan counterpart, with a more rakish windshield, but damned if I can see a difference! I checked the stats on Edmund's, and the sedans are 55.5" tall, whereas the coupe is 55.1", and that difference could be due to different tires/wheels, or even spring settings!

Does the 780 coupe share the same windshield/A-pillars/cowl area as the 740 and 760 sedans? If it does, then it really should be stipped of its "coupe" nomenclature and be called what it really is...a 2-door sedan!

nolid5

The one I saw sported wider, lower profile factory tires and it looks like the rear window has a sharper angle, but I agree it still looks more like a sedan than a coupe. BTW that 220SE Ponton is a very pretty car.

lancerfixer

I'm almost positive that the 780 didn't share a single body panel with the 740/760. Identical running gear, though.

fintail

What is "not right" with that ponton other than some minor defects? The carpet should be easy to fix if someone is going to concours it...few hundred bucks maybe. The trim looks good though. I am sure it's a good 50-60 as is, as a very nice car that can be driven and shown at the same time. I just thought it was lovely in that color combination. A dreamy car

Now here's a MB

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2469588301&category=6330

andys120

it's the MB, even after 40+ years.

lancerfixer

You're kidding.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=6254&item=2469520693

Mr_Shiftright

Well, might be good for a circus or something.

fintail---think about it...why would a guy spend a fortune, (he says) to "restore" this car and then install the wrong carpets? This is an alarm bell to me....makes me wonder where else he took the short cuts. I mean, what's he saying here? "Oh, yeah, I spent $50K to restore it, but when it came to that $275 for carpets, I had to draw the line!")

HUH?

That's why I saw this car needs a close inspection prior to purchase. I just got the "old feeling" about this car...maybe it's just the 100 yard stare of the combat veteran, and I could be all wrong.

fintail

Maybe the guy didn't do the resto work, and just knows it is wrong. He's actually admitting some faults in the car, something rare to ebay. I would have any vehicle of that price inspected, no matter the seller, though...you are right there. What gets me is that the wood is done properly, and you rarely see that on junky cars.

The same seller also has a nice old Mercury on the block

andys120

We had a Merc of similar vintage. I learned to drive on a '59 Merc Monterey (4dr HT).

Mercs back then were evil-handling, hideous pigs that would barely get 12mpg and wouldn't stop unless they ran into something!

Mr_Shiftright

Still doesn't make sense to me fintail. If the guy knows the carpets are wrong, why doesn't he change them? Why try to sell a car for top dollar to knowledgable people who are going to call him on this anyway? The German carpets are very distinctive, it's not going to fool anyone who knows anything about old Mercedes.

Reminds me of these cars you see at auction, cars worth $350,000, and the interiors are filthy and it runs out of gas on the auction block. Ring up another "no sale"!

fintail

Wow, were Mercury's the full size SUV of their day?

You make sense Shiftright, I see where you are coming from. Maybe he's not aiming at the MB-knowledgeable crowd...he's aiming for ebay impulse. But he did admit some faults.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's keep track of how the car does, okay?

fintail

I bet the guy has the reserve way up there, and it won't reach it

Mr_Shiftright

The difference between average and "top" money is the DETAILS, all those things that are not so easy to get right, like vent window weatherstripping, interior chroming, clear tail light lenses, correct upholstery patterns, etc. I see so many cars that look great until you look closely, and you realize the owners decided not to go that last mile to perfection. Maybe a good decision but don't expect the top money.

A car with baggy new seat covers or a loose-fitting new top will not bring top bids from the fussy collector. It either has to be RIGHT or the price has to reflect the cost of making it right.

andre1969

Mercurys were probably the bulkiest cars in their class. It was the same basic shell as the '57-58 body, but they still found ways to pork it up, just as the '59 Ford did.

In '57 all Mercurys rode a relatively stubby 122" wheelbase. Competing Oldsmobiles and DeSotos used 122" for their cheap cars, and 126" for their nicer models. Chryslers all used a 126" wb, and Buicks used 122" for their cheap models, 127.5" for their pricier cars.

Well, the folks at Mercury must've gotten some inferiority complex because of not being long enough, so by '59 (maybe '58 was too soon to react, although that year Merc did field a Park Lane on a 125" wb), the cheaper models started off on a 126" wb, while the Park Lane was 128"!

In comparison, by '59 Chryslers and DeSotos were starting off with 122" for their cheaper models, and 123" for the Olds/Buick. The top models for all were around 126".

1960 was the last year for the really big, bloated Mercurys. That year had a Monterrey, Montclair, and Park Lane, all on a 126" wb, and spanning in price from $2631 (Monterrey 2-dr sedan) up to $4500 for a Park Lane 'vert, or $4558 for a Colony Park 9-pass wagon.

In 1961 they cut back drastically, offering a baseline Meteor and a more upscale Monterrey on a trim 120" wb, and prices spanning from $2535 for a Meteor 2-dr sedan, up to $2128 for a Monterrey 'vert, or $3191 for a Colony Park 9-pass wagon.

Andy S, so they actually did as good as 12 mpg? ;-)

fintail

I'd be happy with a nice driver. If I had a "top" car that was perfect, I wouldn't wanna drive it. Maybe that ponton is a good driver.

No ebay stuff from me today. I went to the Vancouver Auto Show today, and took quite a few pics, which I will share once I clean them up and upload them.

I did see a few decent things on the road today...a really nice looking Volvo 544, an MGA, and a really charming duo of a 56 Ford Sedan pulling a period travel trailer, both were restored, and in matching colors.

fintail

OK maybe I had a few ebay things bookmarked from earlier

This is an interesting way to restore a DeSoto, and this car isn't terribly far from me. It looks pretty nice, and I like the idea of updated mechanicals, and also the seller's humor - "Cond. #1 or #7 depending on where you show it". I like this car, but the owner needs to ditch the steering wheel! What's that from, like a 1985 Caravan?

Here's that yellow DeSoto again. It didn't sell again

Another 1960 Edsel, looks decent in the blurry pics anyway

This is the most surprising one. It has hit reserve and the bidder has actual feedback. This isn't a bad car per se, but isn't really special, and the money seems really high. I also think I see a rust spot/hole on the bottom of the drivers door...door bottoms are a notorious fintail rusting place. What's up with this?

I will make a new thread for the auto show stuff, as someone else did too.

andre1969

but that steering wheel has GOT to go! I like the light/dark blue color scheme, nice and tasteful. And the '58 grille, with the quad headlights, just goes sooo much better on those Dodge "browed" fenders than the simpler '57 grille, with single headlights that gave the car kind of an eerie look, like it was "staring" at you...

ghulet

Did anyone notice the $17500 'Buy It Now' on that '60 Mercury? Good grief, that's reasonable for an Impala or DeVille, but a low-line Mercury? He's dreamin' in Technicolor.

scscars

That silver and black Firesweep is a great looking "resto-mod", but Andre, you're right about that steering wheel. The steering wheel is from an '86 or '87 Chrysler LeBaron K-Car or '86-'88 Diplomat or Gran Fury. It's way out of place in the DeSoto. I'm wondering why the owner didn't try to find a NOS replacement or look for a 50's-style Billet steering wheel to go with the performance image of the car.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail---that 190 auction is very suspicious. I mean, think about it. The starting bid which was seet at $3,000. There has been only ONE bid on the car for the entire auction, for $3,500, that coincidentally just happened to meet reserve. So who bids in $500 increments on Ebay? If the "buyer" had bid $3,100, then $3,300 etc., trying to hit the reserve each time, that would show as 2-3 bids or more.

Also, seller has 0 feedbck, buyer has 3 transactions in two years, and one bid retraction.

 Question is, are the buyer and seller the same person? Yes, you can do it, I've tested that theory about being two persons at once, and it works. Of course, I didn't bid on anything, just curious to see if this type of tomfoolery was possible---and it is. I could bid on my own auction under a different name.

fintail

Maybe to someone's eyes, that 80s steering wheel is modern and reflects the resto-rod that the car is. Someone needs to get that fixed.

I didn't look at the bidder history on that fintail. I am sure it is a shill bidder. It's just too expensive for a non-exceptional car.

Mr_Shiftright

Did I ever tell you the story behind the fintail I owned?

It was an interesting car. Owned by an officer from the USS Nautilus. It had a kind of soft brown leather upholstery and a/c, neither of which I have ever seen on a fintail. Mine was a 220Sb, and it ran great. I would run up to Maine from New York and I just mashed the gas pedal as far as it would go and then backed off one click. Car never complained. My previous cars were a Jaguar and a Buick Riviera, both of them troublesome as you might expect, so the Mercedes dependability took some getting used to! The jaguar broke a tie rod one time at 75 mph, and that was the final straw for that car. The Riv was a nice driver but slammed together in Detroit fashion. Overheating bedeviled me on that car, and not even the entire Mercedes tech department(where I was working) could make that Buick run cool. And these guys were awesome mechanics. That's when one of the instructors sold me the Benz, my first. I think the Buick had a defective casting in the block that plugged up the water galleys.

seminole_kev

out of curiosity, what type of Jag was it?

Mr_Shiftright

The last one was an XK140 coupe. I've had others, too. Right now, the only affordable older Jaguars are the XJ6s and XJSs, which don't interest me in the slightest. From my point of view, Jaguar died after the E-Type Series III and was reborn as something else entirely. I think the collectors agree with me, as the XKs, E-Type and the old Mark II sedans are worth more than just about any old Jaguar except the rare SS 100s from the 1930s, of which there were only 300 or so made.

seminole_kev

you can still get MK I's and II's for not to bad of a price in decent shape. May not be concourse perfect, but a running daily driver for nothing rediculous. Especially the Mk I's. Also could get a Daimler version, though I'm not wild about the 2.5L V8. Actually those Series I XJ6's are starting to creep up on price some as well. Snag one of those years before British Leyland ran them in the ground and in a few years might have a nice investment.

The XK-120,140,150's are rediculous right now. E-type's keep on climbing as well. Too rich for my blood.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, I thought about a Mark I.

I don't think XJ6s will ever be worth anything. They are incompetent cars engineered by madmen. At least with an old Mark you can cope with it, but every problem with an XJ6 is a Hollywood disaster movie that needs cranes, winches, welding torches, air hammers and thousands of dollars.

You couldn't GIVE me one. People have tried, too!

wimsey1

I passed on an E-type that was under $5k many years ago, used the money for college. Probably was the right thing to do. Even 20+ years ago that Jag was probably a beautiful money pit.

Saw a decent looking second series Corvair Monza coupe yesterday, red w/white vinyl roof. I have always liked the style of those cars (way better than first series, IMO). No noticable rust, clean interior.

seminole_kev

really the early XJ6 aren't that bad. Series II is where it started to go in the dumps if I remember correctly. A Series I's not really any more maintenance trouble than a Mk II. ;-) There. Don't you feel better about getting a Series I XJ6?

seminole_kev

plus the parts support for the older XJ's is pretty good. Really I'd love to pick up an old Jag Mk X (yes one of them big sumbiches) but parts are much harder to come by for those.

andys120

It's the Corvair Coupe with it's beautiful sliver of a roof line.

andys120

It's the '65-'69 Corvair Coupe with it's beautiful sliver of a roof line.

White just makes it worse IMO.

seminole_kev

Good looking cars....Nader be damned.