I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

berri

lemko said:

berri said:

I've always thought that the 62 Cadillac was a very clean looking design. I think the 4W was called something like a Fleetwood 60 Special, but I could be wrong. I still remember going to the Chicago auto show as a kid and seeing the limousines. I always kind of leaned toward the Cadillac, particularly this roofline. But the Ghia Imperial limo's were also very neat. Lincoln had one of those town car limo's on display several times where the driver was under a convertible top, but the passenger compartment was enclosed. But I think Lincoln farmed their limo's out somewhere.

I believe Lehman-Petersen built most of the Lincoln limos in the 1960s.

Thanks Lemko. I do recall that limo conversion name know that you mention it. I had Hess & Eisenhardt in my mind initially.

hpmctorque

A deep red 2-door Tempo, driven by a mid-30s woman, on I-95 between Philadelphia and Wilmington. Sightings of Tempos and Topazes, especially the 2-doors, are rare thee days.

uplanderguy

That '65 Satellite convertible looks like Miss Jane Hathaway should be pulling it up in front of the Clampett mansion shortly! I think she drove one of those--or was it the same-year Coronet 500? I think it was the latter, now.

That Imperial is beautiful I think. I haven't seen one of that era in years it seems. '69, right? Gorgeous color too.

kyfdx

berri said:

lemko said:

berri said:

I've always thought that the 62 Cadillac was a very clean looking design. I think the 4W was called something like a Fleetwood 60 Special, but I could be wrong. I still remember going to the Chicago auto show as a kid and seeing the limousines. I always kind of leaned toward the Cadillac, particularly this roofline. But the Ghia Imperial limo's were also very neat. Lincoln had one of those town car limo's on display several times where the driver was under a convertible top, but the passenger compartment was enclosed. But I think Lincoln farmed their limo's out somewhere.

I believe Lehman-Petersen built most of the Lincoln limos in the 1960s.

Thanks Lemko. I do recall that limo conversion name know that you mention it. I had Hess & Eisenhardt in my mind initially.

H&E did the Cadillac limo conversions.

andre1969

I think that Imperial is a '70, but I'm not positive. The '69-73 all runs together in my mind, although the '73 would have those big black rubber blocks mounted up front, as their attempt at a 5 mph bumper. Gorgeous looking cars, IMO. If I had unlimited funds and went on a buying spree, it would definitely be one of the cars on my list.

I kinda like those '65 Plymouth Belvedere/Satellites, too. They seemed to be trying to hold on to the last vestiges of Virgil Exner's extravagance, but they're toned down considerably from the earlier models.

fintail

Spotted a VW Phaeton, not just a Phaeton, but a W12 model. Probably as rare as any production sedan from the past few decades.

I've never been madly love with the fuselage cars, but there's something kind of gothic about the front end of the Imperials that makes it attractive. Seems I'm not alone in seeing something there.

boomchek

Wow, a Phaeton is a rare enough sight, let alone the W12. I imagine Phaetons never sold in huge numbers here, probably more popular in Europe. I can imagine upkeep on those is stratospheric: a VW based on a Bentley platform, with a complicated 12 cylinder motor, with temperamental Audi/VW electronics, and a ton of unique-to-the-Phaeton parts.

fintail

It's still offered in Europe, seems to mainly go to fleets and older people. The W12 has to be a chore to keep going - all the easy maintenance of a German/Bentley 12 cylinder car, with all of the prestige of a VW - you have to be committed to it. I saw it in traffic, thought to myself "oh, a Phaeton", then saw the "6.0" badge, and knew it was something.

explorerx4

@andre1969, The Imperial had a sign on the dash that is was 1 of a series of 1333. Maybe LeBaron? It is a 1970 model.
There was several 5rh wheel equipped Ram pickups across the street with trailers. Not sure if their cargo was on display yet.

stickguy

got behind a car that I have seen a few times. a 70 Road runner (well, it had a road runner decal on the back, and sounded like one!). silver. tires looked wider than stock from the back, but could have been. and ah, the rumble was sweet. as was the smell of unburned hydrocarbons! Don't make cars like that any more.

don't know what engine. But it had an Automatic.

andre1969

I just looked in my old car book, and it shows they built 1333 of the Imperial Crown 4-door hardtop in 1970, which was the entry level model. If $5956 could be called "entry level!" The LeBaron 4-door hardtop, priced at $6328, had a production of 8,426.

Like Fintail, I'm not really a huge fan of the '69-73 fuselage, for the most part, although there are examples I do like. In addition to the Imperial, I find the '69 Dodge Polara/Monaco really attractive for some reason. For the most part the fuselages look a bit fat, but somehow Dodge was able to tone that down. Part of it may have been the more open rear wheel well that Dodge used, whereas the others had more of a skirted look. And, in some years where you could get hidden headlights on a Plymouth, Dodge, or Chrysler, I thought they looked pretty cool.

fintail

The hidden headlights do a lot for me.

The big fuselage coupes are the oddest to me - I swear the rear deck/trunk is as long as the hood. Odd proportions. The smaller Dodge/Plymouth variants wear the style better than the huge Chryslers, too - that design theme seems to exaggerate the size of the car.

My grandpa had a fuselage Chrysler, which replaced his 65. It was apparently an impulse buy, and the car wasn't nearly as good as the older one. I've seen pics, it was green on green. The modern styling must have attracted him. There's a fun story about the car, one morning it refused to start - the same morning my grandparents were leaving for a Hawaiian trip they'd planned for like 10 years. My grandpa couldn't get it started - they had to have a neighbor take them to the airport - and the Chrysler ("the tank" was the nickname) wasn't even that old at the time. But he held on to it for several years, and it was still running and driving when he sold it, anyway.

ab348

Dad bought a 1971 Dodge Monaco new, his first Chrysler Corporation car. I was 15 and I loved that car even though he only kept it a couple of years. He found it too big and bulky and thirsty to drive and sold it to buy a Volvo 144. Ever since I have always had a thing for the fuselage cars and hoped someday to own one. I joined a few Chrysler C-body websites and really got into learning about them, along with paying lots of attention to them at old-car shows.

A funny thing happened on my way through those forums - I decided I no longer wanted one. Part of the reason is practical - they really are huge cars, all of them. But the more important reason is that it is almost impossible to find a really nice fuselage car these days. They generally did not hold up nearly as well as the mid-60s models that came before them, especially the '65-'66 models. Add to that Chrysler's notoriously bad build quality back then, along with some parts that are mostly unobtainium for even basic things, and you have a big headache. I have looked at a lot of them at shows, and they almost always look shabby in some area or another - door panels, armrests, cracked dash pads, that sort of thing. Stuff often does not work and there are obstacles in getting parts to fix them. You would really have to be extremely devoted to have a nice one that you use to any extent. It kills me to admit this, but I believe my desire to have one was misplaced.

andre1969

I tend to see a lot of Chrysler and Imperial fuselages at the Mopar show in Carlisle, PA, but the Fury and especially the Polara/Monaco don't seem to represent nearly as much.

For whatever reason, I don't think the Polara/Monaco were all that popular during the fuselage era. The Fury, as well as the Newport and New Yorker, remained fairly strong though, I think. Actually, I would think the Fury would have taken a hit, as they were always on the same showroom floor as the Chryslers, so there was always that enticement to spend a few hundred bucks more and move up to a Newport, versus a Fury. With the Dodge dealers being stand-alone, the Polara and Monaco should have benefited, I would think, from not having any intramural competition.

andre1969

While out running errands today, I spotted a white '64 Ford Galaxie convertible in the Costco parking lot, and a bit later, a dark blue '77-79 Bonneville 4-door, coming in the opposite direction on US Route 3. They both looked like pretty nice cars.

berri

The 64 Ford was the last on that chassis I believe, but it had a reputation as one of the better quality Ford years. I always thought the big Pontiac's and Buick's were the best looking of the downsized GM products, particularly the first few years. Loved those less formal 2 door greenhouses, much nicer than the later squared off ones in my book at least, but the 4 doors and wagons were very clean as well.

uplanderguy

It seemed I always saw more full-size '64 Fords here in NE OH than I saw several years earlier or later. My coworker, a Ford junkie, and I noticed once driving the 37 miles home from where we then worked, three '64 Fords in people's driveways when we took the back way home. This was about twenty years ago.

A Studebaker friend of mine who has wrenched on all of 'em has said previously that he think the '63 and '64 Fords are some of the best they ever made.

uplanderguy

Re.: the fuselage Mopars--the sheer size of them was usually a turnoff to me, but as usual, I think it's whatever you were used to. Back then, I thought that generally GM did interiors the best. I remember my friend's parents' '72 T&C wagon. At the time I remember thinking the screw-on armrests seemed chintzy and IIRC, you could see a screw head in the window crank, and I thought, "Who puts skirts on a wagon?", although to be honest, Olds did then too. I was in that T&C when suddenly it had no brakes (or at least power assist). In '77 they traded on a Caprice Classic sedan. I remember their Caprice had the (correct) cloth trim inserts on three doors and vinyl on one door. Duh.

andre1969

I had almost forgotten, but my grandparents briefly owned a '71 Town & Country wagon back around 1981 or so. For the life of me, I can't remember why, exactly, they bought it. At the time they had a '72 Impala 4-door hardtop, a '76 GMC 3/4 ton crew cab, and an '81 Dodge D-50 for local running around. I don't remember much about it except that it was gold and had a 440. I think my uncle mentioned that it threw a rod, and that prompted Granddad to give it away. For some reason, we kept a few of the hubcaps. I found one and put it on my '79 New Yorker, after it threw one of its OEM hubcaps on the way to a car show a few years back.

I have a feeling Granddad bought it because it was cheap. Big-block mastodons weren't exactly in high demand back in the early 80's.

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

I just looked in my old car book, and it shows they built 1333 of the Imperial Crown 4-door hardtop in 1970, which was the entry level model. If $5956 could be called "entry level!" The LeBaron 4-door hardtop, priced at $6328, had a production of 8,426.

Saw this at a street car show in Newport (KY) just a couple weeks back. 1960 leBaron 364 K miles.

I've always thought these cars are beautiful. The styling is great and I've always loved the
taillights. Four daughters used it as their wedding car and it was used as the funeral car
for both owners upon their passing. See post #4

Links to full-sized pictures:
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC01245_zpskjyj4h3d.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC01242_zpscbl3nwgy.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC01243_zpsykc7pvz7.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC01244_zps3uakto6x.jpg

stever

I think someone already used your Four Weddings and a Funeral line there Imid.

imidazol97

stever said:

 
Actually it was used for two funerals according to the note on the window. ???? I must be missing something. Lol

stever

Was Hugh Grant driving it?

imidazol97

stever said:

Was Hugh Grant driving it?

I've led a sheltered life. I know nothing of that movie. 

stever

Heh, it's actually pretty good, and I'm not a movie buff. @Fintail can tell you if it's really worth seeing. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 95%.

fintail

That's a lot of miles on that Imperial, kind of a cool labor of love/heirloom.

For that movie, Al Bundy remarked something like "Four weddings and a funeral, that's 5 of the same thing" - that's all I know.

stever said:

Heh, it's actually pretty good, and I'm not a movie buff. @Fintail can tell you if it's really worth seeing. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 95%.

imidazol97

That Imperial is a decade older than the ones being mentioned, but I was impressed with the miles and age
Must not have been driven in salt. Love to know more about its care. Engine compartment doesn't rest of car.

kyfdx

imidazol97 said:

That Imperial is a decade older than the ones being mentioned, but I was impressed with the miles and age
Must not have been driven in salt. Love to know more about its care. Engine compartment doesn't rest of car.

I'll have to check those links, to see if I'm in any of the pictures..

andre1969

Back in the early 90's, I knew someone who had a dark green '60 Imperial 4-door hardtop. He was smitten with my DeSoto, and at one point offered a trade...I could have the Imperial for $5000 plus my DeSoto. I liked the car, but not *that* much! In retrospect, I don't know if that was a good deal or not. That Imperial was in nice shape, but Forward Look cars really weren't on anybody's radar back then, and being a 4-door would have made it even worse.

uplanderguy

Just spotted on the way back from BK (I know, ugh!), a beige, very nice and original-looking '72 Pontiac Grand Ville convertible parked in the lot of a Porsche/VW shop down the road from me. It had the factory Pontiac Rally Wheels (I think Pontiac called them that)--pseudo-mag, small red center, trim rings, five-spoke design.

It seems that I see more Olds and Buick converts of this era out-and-about than Pontiacs. I like the looks of these Pontiacs, better than the bumper-era later ones, which also got more baroque in and out IMHO (skirts, etc.).

Pretty cool that they actually also made a Catalina convertible into '72.

andre1969

I just looked up some stats online. For 1972, here's the production breakout for full-sized GM convertibles:

Impala: 6456
Catalina: 2399
Grand Ville: 2213
Delta 88: 3900
LeSabre: 2037
Centurion: 2396
Eldorado: 7975.

So yeah, that Grand Ville would be pretty rare! I notice '75 Grand Ville convertibles popping up pretty often, but it seems like '71-74 full-sized Pontiac convertibles are pretty rare. Seems like '75 is also the most common year I see for Delta 88's and LeSabres, too. My guess is that since '75 was the last year for these big brutes, more people tended to hold onto them and hoard them away, and that gave them a better survival rate? Also, since buyers knew that the convertible was soon to be no more, there was a bit of a scramble to get one while you could, so sales did go up a bit in '75. Here's the breakdown for that year:

Impala: 8349
Grand Ville: 4519
Delta 88: 7181
LeSabre: 5300
Eldorado: 8950.

It's interesting just how quickly convertibles fell from fashion. Just a few years before, in 1967, here's what Pontiac put out:

Catalina: 10033
2+2: 1768
Bonneville: 8902
Grand Prix: 5856.

uplanderguy

Boy, who'da thunk that Eldorado convertibles outsold any other model of GM full-size convertible, including Chevy, in the '70's? That was an interesting surprise to me.

In '75, the Chevy convertible was in the Caprice Classic line, but I always thought that was a bit of a 'gyp'--it had Impala seat and door panel trim inside. I never understood why, when a luxurious vinyl seat and door trim was available in Caprice sedans and coupes (but not in wagons as well as not in convertibles). I wonder if it was meant to send you 'up the line' if you wanted more luxury in your convertible?

fintail

Today spotted a yellow E36 M3 sedan that appeared to be in very nice condition, driven by an older woman, Surprising.

andre1969

Oh yeah, I had forgotten that they moved the convertible to the Caprice line for '73-75. And I hated that too, how it still kept the Impala interior, but used Caprice exterior trim.

As for pricing structure, here's how it was for '75:
Caprice convertible: $5113
LeSabre Custom convertible: $5133
Delta 88 Royale: $5200
Grand Ville Brougham: $5858
Eldorado: $10354

It's interesting just how close pricing was on the Chevy/Buick/Olds, while the Pontiac was priced notably higher. But, that was that era when Pontiac was trying to be all things to all buyers, and still pulling that charade where they wanted you to think a Grand Ville was close to the Electra/Ninety-Eight level of prestige, so it was priced accordingly. If the convertible had been in the Bonneville lineup, it probably would've been priced closer to the other three. And if it had still been in the Catalina range, my guess is that it would've priced around $4900. The Grand Ville did come with a standard 185 hp 400, so I guess that counts for something. The other cars just came with their respective 350s as standard. And I think the Chevy 350 was down to something like 145 hp.

For all the supposed extra prestige, I never really found those Grand Villes to be all that ritzy inside. I preferred the Delta 88 and especially the LeSabre.

robr2

uplanderguy said:

Boy, who'da thunk that Eldorado convertibles outsold any other model of GM full-size convertible, including Chevy, in the '70's? That was an interesting surprise to me.

Keep in mind that between 1967 and 1975, there were two recessions, an oil crisis, and a 2 year bear market that ended in 1975. There wasn't much money left for middle class people to buy large toys such as convertibles. The 1% of the day though were still able to spend money on Eldorados.

Mr_Shiftright

That's true---the early to mid 70s were a very weird time for the American auto industry. I think Cadillac sales were spurred by the completely baseless rumor that the US government was going to "ban" convertibles.

texases

There's a house not far from me that has two of those '70s Eldorado convertibles, light yellow, stored outside. He's watching them decay, it seems.

andre1969

Same here...I know I've posted this before, but this old car colony is growing less than a mile from my house...


This street became a dead-end back in the 1980's when a new state road went through and cut it in two. There's a turnaround at the end of the street, but this guy apparently is taking advantage of that space, too...


Looks like this guy's fetish is mainly '75-78 Eldorados, and only one is a convertible. They're all languishing though, along with that New Yorker and T-bird. I'd imagine whatever's under the covers is turning to rot as well

ab348

andre1969 said:

Oh yeah, I had forgotten that they moved the convertible to the Caprice line for '73-75. And I hated that too, how it still kept the Impala interior, but used Caprice exterior trim.

As for pricing structure, here's how it was for '75:
Caprice convertible: $5113
LeSabre Custom convertible: $5133
Delta 88 Royale: $5200
Grand Ville Brougham: $5858
Eldorado: $10354

It's interesting just how close pricing was on the Chevy/Buick/Olds, while the Pontiac was priced notably higher.

Hard to understand why anyone would buy a Chevy or Pontiac convertible when the Olds and Buick were much nicer cars for the same or less money.

andre1969

ab348 said:

Hard to understand why anyone would buy a Chevy or Pontiac convertible when the Olds and Buick were much nicer cars for the same or less money.

My guess is that a lot of it was simply brand loyalty, which was much stronger in those days than it is today, even among different divisions of the same manufacturer. Or some buyers simply preferred the style of one to the other. It really surprised me though, to see just how close the Caprice, Delta, and LeSabre were in price, though.

As for the Grand Ville, in looking at pics, it looks like it has a few details that the others lack, mainly in the door panels. The Grand Ville seems to have thicker vinyl, and pull straps, whereas the others just have the regular handle molded into the plastic. The power window and door switches are also angled, built into a piece ahead of the door handle, that makes them look a bit easier to reach than the other models, which again simply had them mounted into the plastic.




Hey, that's one thing I just thought of...I wonder if the Grand Ville had power windows and locks standard? I know they were optional in the other models, but if the Grand Ville had them standard, that, along with the larger standard engine, would at least partly explain the much higher base price of the Grand Ville.

uplanderguy

I'm surprised at those prices, ,but seem to remember the $5,113 for the Chevy since I about lived at our Chevy-Cadillac dealer at the time.

I never liked the clipped front corners of the '75 Caprice, but that said, it did have the wide body side moldings standard equipment. Smaller side moldings were optional on the Buick and Pontiac (not sure about the Olds). I know that full wheelcovers and a clock were standard on the Caprice, while probably optional on the Buick (although I'm not certain). Only the Chevy and Pontiac came with skirts (although that's a negative in my mind!). I remember when I bought an '81 Monte Carlo new, I compared pricing to a base Grand Prix and the Grand Prix came with dog dish caps and no clock, both standard on the Monte. I think sometimes the B-O-P divisions decontented in some small ways to make their pricing more competitive with Chevy.

I'd probably rather have a Buick among all of them, now (no pun intended).

The Pontiac had the new-for-'75 square headlights--I think the Olds did too but not sure--and wasn't the Pontiac called a "Grand Ville Brougham" by then? I wouldn't doubt at all that power windows were standard on that car by that time.

Interesting discussion IMHO.

Mr_Shiftright

You don't see THESE MUCH anymore

berri

When I was in high school a friend of mine lived in a rather well to do part of the suburbs and had a neighbor who collected these. I believe they were pretty sought after and valuable back in the 60's, and had sold for something like $10K new in the mid fifties. I also understand they were somewhat hand made and tested on the assembly line. The guy had three of them in his garages. I'm not sure they are all that popular these days though. Lincoln's don't seem to have much appeal anymore, whether old cars or new. Too bad because those MkII's seemed kind of classy when they first came out, but maybe a tad too "plain" looking for a buyer in the days of the mid to late 1950's

bhill2

berri said:

When I was in high school a friend of mine lived in a rather well to do part of the suburbs and had a neighbor who collected these. I believe they were pretty sought after and valuable back in the 60's, and had sold for something like $10K new in the mid fifties. I also understand they were somewhat hand made and tested on the assembly line. The guy had three of them in his garages. I'm not sure they are all that popular these days though. Lincoln's don't seem to have much appeal anymore, whether old cars or new. Too bad because those MkII's seemed kind of classy when they first came out, but maybe a tad too "plain" looking for a buyer in the days of the mid to late 1950's

I am too young to have been aware of these when they were new (I can't say that about a lot of things) but I understand that every car was test-driven at the factory and delivered to the dealer in a flannel bag.

uplanderguy

I love Continental Mark II's, and I can't tell you when I've seen the last one. They were long-hood short-deck when that wasn't yet the standard, and the single colors and muted trim stand in sharp contrast to what I think most people want in a fifties car now. Too bad...as I said, I love them. I knew someone who drove one and said it was surprisingly slow though.

imidazol97

uplanderguy said:

d Pontiac came with skirts (although that's a negative in my mind!). I remember when I bought an '81 Monte Carlo new, I compared pricing to a base Grand Prix and the Grand Prix came with dog dish caps and no clock, both standard on the Monte. I think sometimes the B-O-P divisions decontented in some small ways to make their pricing more competitive with Chevy.

When I was shopping for a 77 and then for an 80, I compared the pricing among the Chev, Pontiac, Olds, and Buick midsize models. I recall that the comparable models of BOP were within $50 or $100 when the same options like clock were added onto the pricing. The difference in pricing seemed to be things that were invisibile to the customers such as extra soundproofing for one model that another didn't need for its targeted buyer.

imidazol97

bhill2 said:

I'm not sure they are all that popular these days though. Lincoln's don't seem to have much appeal anymore, whether old cars or new. Too bad because those MkII's seemed kind of classy when they first came out, but maybe a tad too "plain" looking for a buyer in the days of the mid to late 1950's

Wasn't the 58 Thunderbird targeted to the lower price buyer who wanted a car emulating the
Mark Series? Hence, the change from 2-seater to 4-seater on the birds and the elgant, upright
styling of those 3 years gave it an image of a little Mark.

andre1969

I remember my first experience with a Mark II was seeing a picture of one in an encyclopedia yearbook, as a young kid. My grandparents had bought an "American People's" encyclopedia set back in the 1950's, as well as some yearbooks from the 1950's through maybe 1961 or so. The yearbooks covered various current events, and had an automotive section. I remember looking through the 1956 yearbook and seeing the Mark II, and thinking "that can't be a 50's car, no way! Looks way too modern!"

These days, about the only time I'll see a Mark II is at the Hershey PA car show in October. But, a couple years ago, I saw one parked out on a street in DC on a mild December day.

As for the '58-60 T-bird, yeah I guess it could be looked at as sort of a lower price alternative to the Mark II. They still weren't exactly cheap. I think the MSRP started at around $3600 for the hardtop and $4000 for the convertible, in an era where the cheapest Ford/Chevy/Plymouth probably started around $2,000.

Considering that '58 was a recession year though, some people must have still been doing well, as the T-bird was a pretty hot number that year. I think something like 38,000 were sold.

In contrast, I believe the '57 had a base price of around $3,000, and sold maybe 21,000 units.

ab348

About 20 years ago a guy in the car club I belonged to showed up at a meeting one day in a '56 Mark II none of us had ever seen before. The car was very nice but original and unrestored, and was in incredible condition. The story he told about how he obtained it was even more remarkable. He ran a demolition/construction waste disposal company and they received the contract to demo a house on one of the city's most ritzy streets. This car was in the basement, behind a garage door that had been bricked over in the '70s. He made arrangements to buy it, as the descendants of the owner did not want to deal with it, so he apparently got it for a steal. He had the brickwork removed, and flatbedded it back to his shop. They cleaned the gas tank, changed all the fluids, installed new tires, and got everything working again. After a good cleaning and polishing it was simply amazing to look at. The interior on his was incredible, with the leather showing almost zero wear. These things were really made well. Even the door jambs had polished metal overlays. Lovely car.

texases

Great story! Any body in the trunk?