I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

P3/P030 is the AMG performance package - it has bigger brakes, LSD, two piece wheels, alcantara steering wheel, higher (186 mph) speed governor. I think it was about a 10K option, and is fairly rare.

texases said:

Fin, what's a "P3 car"?

fintail

Saw a very nice 62 Coupe DeVille in downtown Bellevue this afternoon, kind of a blue or blue green, correct whitewalls, I have seen it before.

tjc78

Saw a 70s Pontiac Hearse today... certainly an odd sighting. If it's in the same spot tomorrow I'll snag a pic.

andre1969

I always wondered what the rationale was behind making a hearse out of a Pontiac, Olds, or Buick, as opposed to a Cadillac. Even if something like a Grand Ville was $2-3K less than a DeVille, once you factor in all the conversion costs, unique parts, etc, would there still be that much of a cost savings?

There's a big junkyard called Leon's Auto parts, on Route 29 south of Culpeper VA, that used to have a '61 Pontiac ambulance in it. I haven't been down there since 1997, and it had been there a really long time even at that point, so I'm sure it's long since crushed. It was a neat looking rig, though. Would've been a cool thing to salvage...if you had the bank account for it, that is!

berri

Wasn't that the very type of ambulance that took JFK's body from AF 1 after returning from Dallas?

andre1969

Close...I googled it, and it looks like the JFK ambulance was a 1963 Pontiac.

robr2

andre1969 said:

I always wondered what the rationale was behind making a hearse out of a Pontiac, Olds, or Buick, as opposed to a Cadillac. Even if something like a Grand Ville was $2-3K less than a DeVille, once you factor in all the conversion costs, unique parts, etc, would there still be that much of a cost savings?

There's a big junkyard called Leon's Auto parts, on Route 29 south of Culpeper VA, that used to have a '61 Pontiac ambulance in it. I haven't been down there since 1997, and it had been there a really long time even at that point, so I'm sure it's long since crushed. It was a neat looking rig, though. Would've been a cool thing to salvage...if you had the bank account for it, that is!

That $2-3K in savings worked out to be quite a bit when a Cadillac "Professional Car" was only about $12,000 in the 60's. That's a lot of coin. Also, Cadillac was the only company that offered the stretch from the factory and it came as pictured below. But it was a sedan. Every other GM brand was stretched by the coach builder but they could reuse most of the body. They had to fabricate everything on the Cadillac.

uplanderguy

Yes, the JFK ambulance was a '63 Bonneville (had the Bonne's ribbed trim starting at the front of the front fender and going maybe 1/3 to 1/2 back down the side), but had dog-dish hubcaps, unlike a stock Bonneville.

ab348

My dad owned a '63 Pontiac Parisienne when I was a kid, and it had the same trim. It was the top of the line for Pontiac in Canada at that time I believe. It looked like this, although his was a 4-door and wasn't red, but rather a metallic blue-green. Notice the Chevy narrow-track chassis the Pontiac body is mounted upon, which is how GM Canada did it back then. You got Chevy mechanicals as well.

iluvmysephia1

ab348 - that red car is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, eh? The 60's rocked mightily for automobile body designs, IMHO.

fintail

I saw the green (dark green) 122/Amazon wagon in downtown Bellevue this afternoon.

Mr_Shiftright

GM was on their game in the 1960s, that's for sure. Mopar ruled street racing, and Ford, aside from the Mustang, was just kind of fiddling around.

berri

As I recall, Ford and Mercury did have some NASCAR success in the 60's and the 65/66 LTD kind of set the post for the up scaling of Caprice and top line Plymouth models. But yeah, GM had the biggest market share by far, in most respects Ford just copied Chevy and Mopar was the enthusiasts brand. But I always felt that toward the end of the decade, all three of them started to loose their way a bit.

stickguy

well, Ford had the wild 427 race engine, and the Mercury Talladega was designed for Nascar (and named after it!)

iluvmysephia1

Ford was spot on with the Mustang, Shelby and such. The Falcon? Give them a pass - it was before the 'Stang came out. The Fairlane - ahh, they were trying for a while, I spose.

Torino baby!

roadburner

In the late '60s Ford had the 428CJ, 429CJ, Boss 302, SOHC 427, and won Indy and Le Mans repeatedly. GM wasn't a real player in any of those venues aside from the Corvette and the Chaparral. It was almost totally a Ford vs. Chrysler duel in NASCAR from the mid '60s on.

omarman

roadburner said:

In the late '60s Ford had the 428CJ, 429CJ, Boss 302, SOHC 427, and won Indy and Le Mans repeatedly. GM wasn't a real player in any of those venues aside from the Corvette and the Chaparral. It was almost totally a Ford vs. Chrysler duel in NASCAR from the mid '60s on.

Le Mans. The Deuce. Il Commendatore.

For me there's just nothing else in racing history so fascinating as the epic rivalry between Henry Ford II and Enzo Ferrari. They don't make moguls like those two icons any more and so there won't be more racing history bent and shaped the way that only they could...and did!

For a quick, slick, good looking two minute video that brings back a lot of memories from that era check out this video tagged as an underdog running with the big dogs! It's actually a promotion video for some sales dot com company but it plays like GT 40 history.

roadburner

omarman said:

Le Mans. The Deuce. Il Commendatore.

For me there's just nothing else in racing history so fascinating as the epic rivalry between Henry Ford II and Enzo Ferrari. They don't make moguls like those two icons any more and so there won't be more racing history bent and shaped the way that only they could...and did!

For a quick, slick, good looking two minute video that brings back a lot of memories from that era check out this video tagged as an underdog running with the big dogs! It's actually a promotion video for some sales dot com company but it plays like GT 40 history.

Thanks for the link! You have probably already read it, but if not, I highly recommend Leo Levine's Ford, the Dust and the Glory: A Racing History- particularly Volume I. As one of my friends put it, Ford's racing effort in the '60s was the equivalent of NASA's Apollo program; name any other marque-not just American- that virtually dominated every big league racing series simultaneously.

andre1969

I never noticed how much difference there was in the Chevy track versus the Pontiac track in those days. That Parisienne just looks "wrong"...it's like now that I've seen it, it can't be un-seen.

One thing I've always wondered...Canadian Pontiacs were Pontiac bodies mounted on Chevy frames and running gear, right? I don't see that as being too big of a deal once all the cars went to a perimeter frame for 1965, but in those years where a Chevy/Buick used an X-frame and had the gas tank mounted ahead of a deep well trunk, while Pontiac/Olds used a perimeter frame and a shallower trunk with the gas tank strapped underneath, it seems to me that it must have been a pain to get the Pontiac body onto the Chevy frame?

ab348

andre1969 said:

I never noticed how much difference there was in the Chevy track versus the Pontiac track in those days. That Parisienne just looks "wrong"...it's like now that I've seen it, it can't be un-seen.

One thing I've always wondered...Canadian Pontiacs were Pontiac bodies mounted on Chevy frames and running gear, right? I don't see that as being too big of a deal once all the cars went to a perimeter frame for 1965, but in those years where a Chevy/Buick used an X-frame and had the gas tank mounted ahead of a deep well trunk, while Pontiac/Olds used a perimeter frame and a shallower trunk with the gas tank strapped underneath, it seems to me that it must have been a pain to get the Pontiac body onto the Chevy frame?

Yeah, I suppose. Those Canadian Pontiacs used Chevy's X-frame and had a deep-well trunk. I don't know exactly what was involved in adapting to that. I can only guess they adapted the Chevy floorpan to work with the Pontiac Body.

berri

Another interesting thing about GM in the 60's was their wider profit margins. GM was great at aspiring buyers to move up. The buyer came in to buy a basic sedan. Ford, GM and Plymouth all had upper models with more chrome and nicer interiors, but Impala also offered the instant, recognizable third tail light. GM also did a better job at promoting their midlevel lines and consumers seemed to have strong perceptions on Pontiac, Olds and Buick. Not so much at the other two companies. Unfortunately, then came Chevymobiles and then look-a-likes which destroyed the whole advantage.

uplanderguy

I never noticed how much difference there was in the Chevy track versus the Pontiac track in those days. That Parisienne just looks "wrong"...it's like now that I've seen it, it can't be un-seen.

I noticed that right away, too.

Funny, in our small town, I never knew any people (that I can remember, anyway), moving from a new Chevy up to a new Pontiac, etc. I know people that bought Chevy Impalas for years and years. I did know some folks who would switch from a Buick to Olds and maybe back, but then Buick and Olds were sold by the same dealer in our town. In a small town I think sometimes people bought the dealer as much as the make.

I do remember our Chevy dealer, which also sold Cadillac, ran an ad once that said "DART CHEVROLET CADILLAC--there's really nothing in-between". I thought that was bold but original!

Mr_Shiftright

I was thinking more along the lines of consumer products. GM and Chrysler just offered more for your money I think than Ford did. Not too many people shopping for GT40s. The 427 SOHC, while a fantastic engine, mostly made its mark in drag racing. Again, like the GT40, it was hand-built and not for the general consumer. My favorite Ford-ish of that era is actually the Pantera and the 289 Cobra.

it's true though that Corvette never was much of a player in international racing.

ab348

In Canada up until the mid-2000s, GM dealers were generally paired into Chevrolet-Oldsmobile or Pontiac-Buick-GMC, with Cadillac going to one or the other. So buyers usually had a step or two up in each case regardless of what entry brand they purchased.

Interestingly, Ford of Canada divided their Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealers into separate dealer operations except in smaller communities. So a Ford buyer who wanted to move up to a Merc or a Lincoln would usually have to switch dealers.

Chrysler bridged the two concepts, with Canadian dealers being split into Chrysler-Dodge and Chrysler-Plymouth operations, so there was always a step up for Plymouth or Dodge buyers. Chrysler-Plymouth dealers also sold Fargo trucks until the early 1970s when all trucks became Dodges.

berri

I recall back then that at least in the Chicago area, Ford often had the best ad prices. However, I also think Ford resale trailed Chevy by a fair amount. As for Chrysler, it was pretty much-Chrysler-Plymouth or stand alone Dodge dealers. Also, sometime around the late 60's both Chrysler and surprisingly Buick were offering aggressive Newport and LeSabre pricing in the dealer ads. Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Mercury didn't seem to be playing as aggressively, at least in that part of the country back then. I'm thinking that's because Pontiac and Olds were doing very well in Intermediates, so maybe the full sized sales weren't quite as critical for them as for Buick? Haven't a clue what was going on with Mercury, although I recall them getting more aggressive in the 70's.

fintail

90s day - saw a minty looking 300ZX and a similar condition early run Lexus LS - it was getting dark, so who knows.

I think Ford wagons were also well-regarded in the 60s.

hpmctorque

Ford sold more wagons and convertibles than Chevy in the '60s.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

Funny, in our small town, I never knew any people (that I can remember, anyway), moving from a new Chevy up to a new Pontiac, etc. I know people that bought Chevy Impalas for years and years. I did know some folks who would switch from a Buick to Olds and maybe back, but then Buick and Olds were sold by the same dealer in our town. In a small town I think sometimes people bought the dealer as much as the make.

Thinking back, neither set of my grandparents really moved up any automotive hierarchy. But, they also never really advanced in their careers, either...it's not like they started sweeping the floors and driving a Chevy, and then moving up to a Cadillac-driving CEO.

My Dad's parents were mostly a Ford family, and Mom's parents were GM. On Dad's side, they started with a '49 Ford, then a '57 Ford Fairlane 500, '61 Galaxie 500, '63 Monterrey. Then they tried a '66 or '67 Tempest, a '71 Tempest, '75 Dart Swinger, '77 Granada, '81 Granada, '85 LTD, '89 Taurus LX, and finished with a '94 Taurus GL.

I guess the highest they got up the prestige ladder would've been that Mercury Monterrey, which at first glance, would seem more prestigious than a Ford. But, I remember Granddad saying that the '57, 61, and '63 all cost about the same, around $3500. Car prices did stagnate a bit around that timeframe though, and in some instances even came down a bit.

On my Mom's side, they started off with a 1940 Chrysler Royal that Granddad had when he met Grandmom in 1946. Then a new 1949 Pontiac, used '52 Buick, used '55 Pontiac, new 60 or 61 Chevy wagon, then a new '64 or '65 Chevy wagon, a new '68 Impala, 72 Impala, '82 Malibu Classic estate wagon, and then, as their last hurrah, they did move up the ladder, going to an '85 Buick LeSabre Limited Collector's Edition.

My Mom used to like Pontiacs, because she thought they were a step up from a Chevy. Her first new car was a '66 Catalina convertible, which was then replaced with Grandmom and Granddad's '68 Impala in 1972. In '75 she bought a brand-new LeMans coupe. In 1980, she wanted another LeMans, but went with a Malibu instead, because it was a bit cheaper...about $100-200 I think.

stickguy

The grandparents I knew lived in Vermont when I was a kid. Had a couple of volvos (122 and 142) then later VW 411 and 412. Guess they had little interest in speed! But did care about snow traction.

My other grandpa died when I was little but had an LTD or similar big Ford at the time.

ab348

Dad found the new '71 Monaco he bought just too big and bulky, so he sold it and got a a '68 Volvo 144. It was slow as molasses (being an automatic) but tough as nails. It even had a shipping container fall on its roof one day - it just bounced off his car into a ditch before breaking open, exposing its cargo of cases of whisky. The Volvo needed its roof pounded out and repainted, and some new tires, but that was all. Unreal. He then bought a '73 144 which was a disaster. Nothing worked right and it was very poorly made.

Today's sighting: an absolutely like-new '75 or '76 Mercury Monarch 4-door, silver with black vinyl roof. Looked like it just came out of the dealer, I suspect original paint since it wasn't shiny like a modern repaint would be. Didn't even have the gas filler door in the rear panel broken like so many did. Man, the rear bumpers on those looked about 2 sizes too wide for the car.

texases

I think Volvo has the most schizophrenic reputation, 'hard as nails' and 'safest car built' on the one hand, 'money pit' and 'terribly unreliable' on the other.

omarman

ab348 said:

Dad found the new '71 Monaco he bought just too big and bulky, so he sold it and got a a '68 Volvo 144. It was slow as molasses (being an automatic) but tough as nails. It even had a shipping container fall on its roof one day - it just bounced off his car into a ditch before breaking open, exposing its cargo of cases of whisky. The Volvo needed its roof pounded out and repainted, and some new tires, but that was all. Unreal.

When you say shipping container... Like 20 feet long and 2 and a half tons empty? And the one which fell on top of the Volvo was a loaded, smash-you-all-flat, you know...shipping container? And the only Volvo damage was dents, paint, and tires? Unreal? Otherworldly. Supernatural.

ab348

omarman said:

When you say shipping container... Like 20 feet long and 2 and a half tons empty? And the one which fell on top of the Volvo was a loaded, smash-you-all-flat, you know...shipping container? And the only Volvo damage was dents, paint, and tires? Unreal? Otherworldly. Supernatural.

Yes, it was incredible. It seemed to hit one of the rear corners of the roof first as that was where the worst damage was, though the entire roof was flattened somewhat, but the roof pillars were unhurt. I suspect it was moving sideways when it made contact so it wasn't like being dropped straight on the roof, but it was enough to blow out one or two of his tires. I remember being home when he called mom to tell her what had happened. We were all confused and concerned until he arrived home unscathed. When we saw the newspaper the next day there was a picture of the broken container in the ditch with people scavenging bottles or cases of whisky that had spilled out. When it was being repaired he had the whole car repainted from the butterscotch color it was originally to a '71 or '72 Volvo yellow. I guess he wanted to be sure he could be seen.

There was likely some truth to the ad from that time:

texases

Folks later found out Volvo reinforced the roofs for that ad...

imidazol97

texases said:

Folks later found out Volvo reinforced the roofs for that ad...

Truth in advertising!  lol

PF_Flyer

If that was a commercial today, "Do not attempt" would be in small print at the bottom... because you KNOW somebody would

ab348

texases said:

Folks later found out Volvo reinforced the roofs for that ad...

No, I think you're confusing the stacked car ad with a later one they did where a monster truck crushed the roofs of a bunch of other cars but left the Volvo pretty much intact. The roof on that one was found to be reinforced and the ad agency was terminated.

Apparently the stacked cars were ones damaged in transit and unsaleable, so they decided to use them for this.

texases

You're right, here's the news story on the monster truck incident:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/131416/VOLVO-ADMITS-STAGING-ADVERTISEMENTS-FOR-THE-CAR-THAT-YOU-CAN--BELIEVE-IN.html?pg=all

There was a minor bit of cheating in the stack picture, in that the bottom Volvo was resting on braces so the tires and suspension wouldn't be crushed. But that doesn't bother me.

Mr_Shiftright

I remember one that rolled in a side road in Snowmass, Colorado. The tow truck righted it off its roof using a cable (or maybe it was two trucks, I no longer have the local paper's photo). They refilled the oil that had leaked out, and it started up and drove away. The only injury to the driver was his hand, which was sticking out during the rollover. Mashed a couple fingers pretty badly. Didn't even break any glass. Those little "blob" Saabs were also very strong (and great rally cars)--the Model 93 and 96 I mean. I doubt a Saab 99 could run long enough to be in a rallly, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong about that.

stevedebi

ab348 said:

Dad found the new '71 Monaco he bought just too big and bulky, so he sold it and got a a '68 Volvo 144. It was slow as molasses (being an automatic) but tough as nails. It even had a shipping container fall on its roof one day - it just bounced off his car into a ditch before breaking open, exposing its cargo of cases of whisky. The Volvo needed its roof pounded out and repainted, and some new tires, but that was all. Unreal. He then bought a '73 144 which was a disaster. Nothing worked right and it was very poorly made.
...

Yeah, my dad bought a '72 144. We kept it two years. It was expensive to maintain (the regular service was $400 bucks, a lot in those days), and the paint in particular was poor. Replaced it with a '74 Impala.

Our neighbor had a '72 164, and he bought a second one before he left Germany for the US.

PF_Flyer

It sorta just struck me... Somewhere, someone is driving a Vega around and saying, "What? This car is great."

I'm allowed. I was saddled with a hand me down Vega for a couple of years

explorerx4

I remember 4 high school girls were in one that hit a tree on a street I drove on my way to work.
Would not have made a Volvo ad.
It was an eye opener for me, safe is very relative.

fintail

If I had to choose a 70s car for a crash, I'd pick a MB W116, hands down, no question.

Sightings of late - mint looking 78-80 Cutlass Supreme coupe, 80-82 Mazda 626 hardtop coupe, the same one I saw a while ago.

stickguy

saw around the corner from my neighborhood a throwback to my younger days. Sitting on a front yard for sale, what looked to be about a 1974 Dodge Dart. The 2 door formal version. Would have stopped if the wife was not with me! Nothing that exciting. Some obvious rust, and a medium green. Looks pretty much original. certainly paint did.

might swing by during the week to see if it is still there so I can look it over.

Looked like a ratty version of this one:

fintail

Saw an E30 Baur cabrio on the road today. It wasn't pristine, so maybe a period grey market car rather than a recent private import.

Mr_Shiftright

Saw a Plymouth Prowler. When was the last time you saw one of those on the road?

stickguy

just a couple of weeks ago, driving around in NJ. kind of shocked me.

tjc78

stickguy said:

just a couple of weeks ago, driving around in NJ. kind of shocked me.

HMM.... I wonder if there are two or we've seen the same one. My wife asked me what is was. It was cruising down the Black Horse Pike on one of the unseasonably warm days we've had in the last few weeks.

roadburner

Saw a 1957 Ford Ranchero yesterday- it looked pretty clean.

Mr_Shiftright

Another rare bird. They only made roughly 21,000 of them, so if you figure a 10% survival rate and perhaps a 5% running and registered rate, there aren't many rolling around out there.