I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

stickguy

out driving around on local roads, a nice looking red MGB-GT. Chrome bumpers. I like those.

and parked on a yard with a for sale sign, some sort of 1930ish car. Black of course. 2 door bread van style. Surprisingly small looking.

and a 1975ish Ranchero with a "custom" paint job (odd graphics).

uplanderguy

Funny, I was in Fremont, Ohio, probably 100 miles from where I live, today. My wife and I went through Spiegel Grove, the home of president Rutherford B. Hayes. I absolutely have never been on a greater home tour. The house has 44 rooms and is 21,000 square feet. He died in 1893 but his son and family, then grandson and family, lived in the home until 1965. It's 85% original inside, including furniture. On the way home, we stopped in tiny Milan, OH to see the (tiny) birthplace of Thomas Edison. A cool and cheap day away.

andre1969

Can someone identify this car? One of the game show channels ran a commercial where they highlighted a bunch of cars from "Let's Make a Deal", showing quick clips of them, and this was the only one I couldn't identify. It makes me think a bit of a Toyota Celica, but I don't think that's it. Something about it seems a bit European. I'm guessing it's around a '71-72 something or other, whatever it is...

stickguy

Triumph stag. odd thing to be on LMAD

andre1969

Thanks! And yeah, now I see it perfectly. For some reason, I was thinking the Stag wasn't introduced until later years, so it didn't register with me. I did google "1972 Triumph", but the first pics to come up were a Spitfire, a TR6, and a bunch of motorcycles.

Everything else they showed in the clip looked to be from around '71-72...two Vegas (hatch and sedan), a Coupe DeVille, a Sebring, a Duster, a Nova, and a Ventura.

Mr_Shiftright

Must have been a real drag to win a brand new car on a quiz show and have it melt in your driveway two weeks later.

stickguy

well, it was in LA, so maybe they lasted 2-3 years before being overtaken with rust?

texases

It wasn't just rust. LOTS of engine problems, per wiki:

"The car was launched one year late in 1970, to a warm welcome at the various international auto shows. The Stag rapidly acquired a reputation for mechanical unreliability, usually in the form of overheating. These problems arose from a variety of causes.

First, the late changes to the engine gave rise to design features that were questionable from an engineering perspective. For example, the water pump was set above the engine. If the engine became hot in traffic, coolant escaped from system via the expansion bottle and the overall fluid level then fell below the level of the pump. As well as preventing coolant from circulating, this also caused rapid failure of the pump. Even when the system was topped up again, the failed water pump would not circulate coolant and further overheating ensued. Water pump failures also occurred due to poorly hardened drive gears, which wore out prematurely and stopped the water pump.

A second cause of engine trouble was the choice of materials. The block was made from iron and the heads from aluminium, a mixture that required the use of corrosion-inhibiting antifreeze all year round. This point was not widely appreciated either by owners or by the dealer network supporting them. Consequently the engines were affected by electrolytic corrosion, so that corroded alloy debris came loose and was distributed around inside the engine.

A third cause of trouble was the engine's use of long, simplex roller link chains, which would first stretch and then often fail inside fewer than 25,000 miles (40,200 km), resulting in expensive damage. Even before failing, a stretched timing chain would skip links and cause valves to lift and fall in the wrong sequence, so that valves hit pistons and damaged both.

Another problem with the cylinder heads was the arrangement of cylinder head fixing studs, half of which were vertical and the other half at an angle. The angled studs when heated and cooled, expanded and contracted at a different rate to the alloy heads, causing sideways forces which caused premature failure of the cylinder head gaskets. Anecdotally this arrangement was to reduce production costs as the cylinder head mounting studs and bolt were all accessible with the rocker covers fitted. This allowed the factory to completely assemble the cylinder head assembly before fitting to the engine. However this was not possible in the end due to the cam chain fitting and setting of the cam timing requiring the removal of the rocker covers.

Finally, although pre-production engines cast by an outside foundry performed well, those fitted to production cars were made very poorly in house by a plant troubled with industrial unrest and poor quality control. Poor manufacturing standards also gave rise to head warpage, and head gaskets that restricted coolant flow, which also led to overheating.

This combination of design, manufacturing and maintenance flaws caused a large number of engine failures."

fintail

This is in the lobby of the hotel where I am staying right now:



Oddest thing I saw today was the remains of an old Renault 5 that was long past being on the road.

stickguy

I knew the Stag engine had some weak spots. didn't realize it was that bad!

sounds like nothing that a 289 Ford dropped in wouldn't cure.

ab348

An acquaintance locally has spent a small fortune restoring a Stag. It has the Triumph engine (rebuilt a couple of times already) because he is a bit of a purist, but I gather engine swaps are fairly common among Stag owners. All sorts of different powerplants have been shoehorned into them.

stickguy

I assume you could spend enough money and make anything reliable. Pantera comes to mind.

but in the case of the Stag probably way easier to put in a reliable powerplant. I always thought it was a cool car.

Mr_Shiftright

Or perhaps the rover v8, which was derived of course from the old Buick 215. That's the same 3.5 liter that is in the Triumph TR 8

robr2

Today I saw a 1957 Thunderbird - white over red - driven by a mid 60's man and woman. I'm guessing it was the last ride for it before it began it's winter hibernation.

Mr_Shiftright

'57 is the most popular of the 3 years and the most valuable.

ab348

Here is an optimistic seller:

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/porsche/912/1789903.html?refer=blog

texases

Thank you for the BEST laugh I've had in weeks! That 912 "will require an extensive restoration"...ya think???

imidazol97

texases said:

Thank you for the BEST laugh I've had in weeks! That 912 "will require an extensive restoration"...ya think???

I like the part where the seller says, "...has been sitting."

ab348

imidazol97 said:

I like the part where the seller says, "...has been sitting."

I guess he ran out of space for the part that said "...has been crushed".

stickguy

Buff right out!

Man, probably worst condition I have ever seen. Literally no floors. And hard to see many usable parts to strip off that. Impossible to restore. And not worth a that much done.

texases

stickguy said:

Buff right out!

Man, probably worst condition I have ever seen. Literally no floors. And hard to see many usable parts to strip off that. Impossible to restore. And not worth a that much done.

While I don't think a 912 is worth much, it seems like the market has gone nuts on them, they're selling for near 911 $$, for some crazy reason...

andre1969

"Yeah, well, I had no choice...somebody else bought the last POS sky-blue Cadillac!"

stickguy

I should remember what movie that line came from. But slipping my mind at the moment!

fintail

912s are worth a lot because they look like a 911, which might be the most speculative bubbly collectible car.

I finally saw one of these in the wild (beside a modern descendant) - I suppose 25-30 years ago, they were still a common sight:

andre1969

stickguy said:

I should remember what movie that line came from. But slipping my mind at the moment!

Eddie Murphy said it to Nick Nolte in "48 Hours". I had to santize it a bit for Edmund's, though.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh well, Beverly Hills Car Club---they are rather famous for this sort of thing. I think he really does some of these tongue in cheek. Maybe if this were a Ferrari GTO......

texases

Huh, missed that. I was wondering if it was April 1...

robr2

Why would anyone restore that 912? It should be left as it is and noted as a "survivor." That's all the rage in the collector car circle.

explorerx4

Roy Rogers' Pontiac
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/giddy-up-roy-rogers-1963-pontiac-bonneville-moseys-off-to-auction/ss-BBn4LP2?ocid=DELLDHP#image=1

omarman

Roy Rogers' Horse and Dog.
Auctioned off to the highest bidder which was RFD TV, a cable tv company from Omaha. There's even a FB page for ol' Trigger and Bullet. I couldn't help linking the pic with a group of American National Cattlewomen reps. Without even reading the plaque I'd say that sure looks like Roy's dog!

explorerx4 said:

Roy Rogers' Pontiac
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/giddy-up-roy-rogers-1963-pontiac-bonneville-moseys-off-to-auction/ss-BBn4LP2?ocid=DELLDHP#image=1

Mr_Shiftright

Roy Rogers--- a very shrewd businessman.

fintail

Saw another one in the wild today. I've seen more of these cars that went out of production more than 40 years ago, than I have seen Lexus in Italy.

On the obscure note, I saw a Daewoo Nexia today, an unloved relative of the Opel Kadett-based Pontiac LeMans that was sold in NA.

ab348

fintail said:

On the obscure note, I saw a Daewoo Nexia today, an unloved relative of the Opel Kadett-based Pontiac LeMans that was sold in NA.

That version of the LeMans wasn't loved either.

Mr_Shiftright

The phrase "universally loathed" comes to mind.

explorerx4

When I look at the last picture, I'm not sure if they are Cadillacs or Lincolns.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5320570707.html

andre1969

At a quick glance, those '70 Eldorados make me think of a '71 Impala! I know that was partly intentional, as GM was trying to give the Chevies an upscale "baby Cadillac" look...and in many years it worked well. But here I think it has the opposite effect, making the Eldorado look a bit cheap.

The '69 Eldorado had exposed headlights too, but still had more of a Cadillac-look to it. My favorites are the '67-68 though, with the hidden headlights.

andre1969

Now that I think about it, IMO the 1970 seems to be the low point of style for that generation of Toronado and Riviera, as well. The Riviera seemed to go from sleek, sporty, and cutting edge to chunky and sort of an old man's car. To me it looks an awful lot like a bloated up Skylark. I think the Toronado fared a bit better, although I'm not a fan of the too-close-together exposed headlights, and the sheetmetal seems like it puffed up, too.

uplanderguy

That does look like a '71 Impala; I'd never made that connection before!

I'm with you--I don't like the '70 Toronado or the '70 Riviera. I haven't looked for a pic online, but I can remember some (maybe all) '70 Rivs had a tiny little rear fender skirt that was barely one. Of course, when off the car, it looked all the worse.

A friend who works at a car lot tells me they have a clean '74 Toronado for sale. I know the basic look, but I had to look online to remember the details. Has a bit of a coffin-nose front look I think. I know nobody wants a '74 car because of the front and rear bumpers, but that's still a little interesting to me.

fintail

On the road today saw an old Citroen Visa van - can't be many left. Also saw a W126 in taxu service, a definitely non-restored Peugeot 404 in Geneva, and while not a classic, an early 90s Dodge Maxi van in the same area caught my eye, obscure for the location.

andre1969

I like the '74 Toronado, mainly for the fact that it was the last year you could get one with a roll-down rear window. If you got the landau roof though, it gave you stationary opera windows.

I don't mind the big front and rear bumpers on the '74 Toronado. However, I think a bigger issue is that '74 was about the worst year for driveability, fuel economy, etc. Emissions controls really strangled the cars down that year, and just made them cranky in general. When they started putting catalytic converters on in '75, it did improve the fuel economy and driveability...less sputtering, stalling, etc. But in '75, the auto makers pretty much killed off the few remaining high-performance engines, so most people don't look at '75 all that fondly, either.

As for the '70 Riviera, I had to look to double-check, but yeah, it looks like they all either have that marginal fender skirt, or a larger one. And if you take it off entirely, you end up with this...

sda

andre1969 said:

Now that I think about it, IMO the 1970 seems to be the low point of style for that generation of Toronado and Riviera, as well. The Riviera seemed to go from sleek, sporty, and cutting edge to chunky and sort of an old man's car. To me it looks an awful lot like a bloated up Skylark. I think the Toronado fared a bit better, although I'm not a fan of the too-close-together exposed headlights, and the sheetmetal seems like it puffed up, too.

</I agree with you in that the Eldo, Toro, and Rivi all looked better with their hidden head lamps. The 68 Eldo was especially sharp with its crisp lines, and hidden wipers and headlamps. Though the front styling of the 70 Toro was probably the least attractive of the three, the GT version of the 70 Toro would be a fun one to have.

andre1969

Wasn't there a high performance version of the Riviera for 1970, as well? A Gran Sport Stage-1 or something like that?

Consumer Reports tested a Toronado in 1966, and hated it, partly because it was "too fast" (they were pretty nerdy in those days and thought the perfect car was something like a 6-cyl AMC). So I'd imagine a GT model must have really been a wild ride!

I like the 1971 redesign of the Toronado, too. Somehow they managed to square the car off a bit on the sides so it doesn't appear quite as "fuselaged" and fat as the Eldorado.

bhill2

andre1969 said:

Consumer Reports tested a Toronado in 1966, and hated it, partly because it was "too fast" (they were pretty nerdy in those days and thought the perfect car was something like a 6-cyl AMC). So I'd imagine a GT model must have really been a wild ride!

I remember a Consumer Reports comparison test from that era where they rated a V-8 Pontiac Tempest (not a GTO) as "excessively powerful". My adolescent mind warped, and as can be seen, never fully recovered.

andre1969

I'd imagine a Tempest, if it was a 326/2-speed, would actually be kind of slow. CR did a midsized test in 1968 or 69, and I remember the quickest of the group was either a Coronet or Satellite with a 318/torqueflite, and it did 0-60 in 10 seconds flat. I remember a Buick Special in that test, with a larger 350 but hampered with the 2-speed, being around 11.5 seconds.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes a Grand Sport with a 455 cid engine, rated at something like 360HP (some say underrated) and a whoppin' 510 ft lb of torque. Not *that* fast by modern standards, but it was a huge, heavy car, so.....

andre1969 said:

Wasn't there a high performance version of the Riviera for 1970, as well? A Gran Sport Stage-1 or something like that?

Consumer Reports tested a Toronado in 1966, and hated it, partly because it was "too fast" (they were pretty nerdy in those days and thought the perfect car was something like a 6-cyl AMC). So I'd imagine a GT model must have really been a wild ride!

I like the 1971 redesign of the Toronado, too. Somehow they managed to square the car off a bit on the sides so it doesn't appear quite as "fuselaged" and fat as the Eldorado.

roadburner

andre1969 said:

Consumer Reports tested a Toronado in 1966, and hated it, partly because it was "too fast" (they were pretty nerdy in those days and thought the perfect car was something like a 6-cyl AMC). So I'd imagine a GT model must have really been a wild ride!

I remember when the Charger 2.2 came out; it had a relatively loud exhaust- some of the CR dorks testing the Charger said the exhaust noise made them "nervous." What a bunch of geeks.

uplanderguy

Re.: the '70 Riviera, per the source, there was only one engine which was 370 hp. The Gran Sport package sure didn't add much, per the detail here:

http://www.oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Buick/1970_Buick/1970_Buick_Riviera_Folder/1970-Buick-Riviera-Folder-05

It's weird how they present "Riviera I, II, and III" in this brochure. Still, I love this site. Whenever I'm really curious about a question, I go here. I've owned a couple of the coffee-table 'expert' books over the years but have found so many errors in them. I love being able to go straight to the brochure.

sda

Looks like the big difference for the GS was the 3.78 rear axle. That's a great site, thanks for sharing.

fintail

On the street today, saw a later run 2 tone 2CV, a few Peugeot 205s in decent enough shape, a nice early W126, Citroen Visa 4 door, Renault Avantime, and this thing which was apparently teleported from 1987:

Mr_Shiftright

yep just one engine, the 455. Some sites list identical HP for a GS and non-GS, some list 20 more HP, some list 360HP, but you know how that goes on the Internet. I think the HP is the same regardless of which trim level, as per the factory brochure.

sda said:

Looks like the big difference for the GS was the 3.78 rear axle. That's a great site, thanks for sharing.