I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

explorerx4

Here's a CL ad for the Panther Mafia.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5369921191.html

ab348

I usually am not a fan of the '68 fullsize Pontiac. The front end design is a step backwards from the cool '67 and the dashboard pads are tacked on. But geez, that '68 wagon is gorgeous. Such low miles it would be a shame to drive it, and things would probably start to go very wrong very quickly if you did drive it. But I am struck by how much more modern the '68 interior looks than the '65. A lot less chrome, those space-age door panels, the interior is gorgeous. I like the green inside but the pics make the paint color seem not very attractive. The vinyl roof looks good - I am dubious of that black roof on the '65 wagon.

For some odd reason I am not a huge fan of that '65 Bonne 4-door.

Mr_Shiftright

Price is delirious. I've seen low miles examples for less than half that. Seller: Try $7500, go down from there, take $5K if you have to.

uplanderguy

I am getting the ad for that '65 4-door hardtop showing on my Facebook page now.

It appears the Bonneville wagon market may be opening up...LOL! That '68 was bid to $28,200.00.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Bonneville-/321951404299?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4af5cc910b:g:gPAAAOSwYaFWckqN&item=321951404299

Mr_Shiftright

Nasty thing about eBay is that anybody can bid and then just disappear. Their car auctions are not legally binding in any way.

uplanderguy

When that happens, you will almost always see the vehicle relisted. I doubt that two separate charlatans bought both of these cars from different dealers. Forty-two bids on the '68.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, they usually do relist. No shortage of charlatans on eBay.

uplanderguy

I think one's age has something to do with what one likes in an interior. To me, the '65 Bonneville and Grand Prix instrument panel is magnificent. The '68 is padded more, as all cars were getting by then. My first college roommate was driving his parents' old '68 Bonneville Brougham and I spent a lot of time in it. One thing I often notice about '68 Bonnevilles and Grand Prix models--and that wagon has these items--is that some of the instrument panels you see have the "Bonneville" or "Grand Prix" nameplate and assist grip from the '67 models, and some do not. In fact, just the other day I was looking online at a mailer for the '68 Bonneville Brougham and the instrument panel there did not have these items. My roommate's Brougham did not either. I have to believe it depends on which plant the car was assembled in. I prefer the panel without those couple things.

The '68 Brougham had those strato-back seats--the backs looked like a bucket. They looked nice but I remember them not feeling particularly well-padded/plush.

My first taste of '65 Pontiacs came with my brother-in-law's parents' '65 Grand Prix, maroon, black vinyl top, plum vinyl bucket seats and console. As a small kid, I was totally smitten. I'd never seen an interior like that before...compared to our '67 Chevelle 300 Deluxe, it was downright decadent.

I wonder if the wood on the dash of the '65's was real, or veneer, like the '73 Grand Prix's? It sure looks like it. The '68 had pretty run-of-the-mill woodgrained vinyl accents.

uplanderguy

Actually, I don't believe either of those wagons actually sold--apparently didn't meet reserve. When the little flag says "ended" instead of "sold", I have to believe we'll be seeing them listed again.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably shill bids trying to push to the reserve. Auction houses do this all the time. In "real" auctions, it's always a good idea to face the audience, not the auctioneer, to see where he's pointing to when he calls a bid out. Sometimes it's the chandelier. They feel this is harmless since they only shill under the reserve, never when the reserve has been met.

I personally still find the practice very sleazy. It is a form of manipulation, because auctions have a strong emotional component to them.

uplanderguy

I do think the fact that the bids were so similar does establish interest in that particular make and body style of vehicle. Again, two different sellers. I would say that a four-door hardtop Bonneville would bring the least money of any Bonneville bodystyle, all other things equal--that is, until mid'68 when they started making Bonneville 4-door "post" sedans.

fintail

Saw that dark green Volvo Amazon wagon in the rain tonight. Sounded healthy.

berri

The 65/66 Pontiac's were just very attractively styled cars.

tjc78

texases said:

Well that's odd - after viewing the Pontiac hardtop ad on Cars.com, I now get Cars.com video ads in the lead in to youtube videos - with THAT Pontiac featured! Scary efficient, these ads are!

Clear out your cookies and history. It will go away. 

andre1969

ab348 said:

I usually am not a fan of the '68 fullsize Pontiac. The front end design is a step backwards from the cool '67 and the dashboard pads are tacked on. But geez, that '68 wagon is gorgeous.

For some odd reason I am not a huge fan of that '65 Bonne 4-door.

I think the '68 is my least favorite of the 60's full-sized Pontiacs. From 1959-67, Pontiac managed to pull off a look that made their big cars seem sporty and youthful. Even though they plumped up a bit for '65 and again for '67, they still managed that sporty flair. And the '67, I thought, looked downright futuristic, with its low bumper/grille and a bit of "batmobile" similarity. But suddenly for '68, the car seemed to turn into an old man's car.

I know what Pontiac was trying to do...the intermediates were all-new, and they tried to restyle the front of the big cars to carry over that family resemblance, but I just don't think it worked. The beak was a bit too big, and the taillights also seemed a bit disproportionate.

I liked the 69 Pontiacs better. Even though the style had a strong '68 influence, it seemed like it managed to recapture a little bit of its youth. But then, for '70, they threw all that out the window and went "neoclassic". Or, what we call "retro", nowadays...with the fake horn ports, tall, slim grille, etc.

fintail

In the workplace parking garage - 86-88(?) Accord hatch, maroon, on period correct "MSW" gold basketweave wheels, would have been considered hip back in the day. Must be somebody's baby to still be on the road, or the driver is frugal.

uplanderguy

I don't like the '69 big Pontiacs much myself--the '68's are the last ones I liked a good bit. The instrument panel on the '69 is bland in my opinion, and the woodgrain vinyl on the right half isn't surrounded by bright outlining or anything, and even the model name is not a separate piece but written right on it--a strong cleaner would probably take the model name right off there!

Plus, you could get bucket seats in a Catalina and Bonneville--but you couldn't get a center console. I never understood that. You could get a floor-shift and console in an Impala, Caprice, Delta 88, and Wildcat.

I do like that there was still a Brougham convertible in '69.

I used to detest the '70 big Pontiacs, but they've actually grown on me a bit, basically because I NEVER see a nice, original/authentic one and really even almost never see a clapped-out one.

Michaell

fintail said:

In the workplace parking garage - 86-88(?) Accord hatch, maroon, on period correct "MSW" gold basketweave wheels, would have been considered hip back in the day. Must be somebody's baby to still be on the road, or the driver is frugal.

That was the model with the pop-up headlights, right?

I had an '85 Accord LX hatch when I graduated college. Also maroon, and I really wanted to add the gold basketweave wheels to it. Never happened.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I don't like the '69 big Pontiacs much myself--the '68's are the last ones I liked a good bit. The instrument panel on the '69 is bland in my opinion, and the woodgrain vinyl on the right half isn't surrounded by bright outlining or anything, and even the model name is not a separate piece but written right on it--a strong cleaner would probably take the model name right off there!

Plus, you could get bucket seats in a Catalina and Bonneville--but you couldn't get a center console. I never understood that. You could get a floor-shift and console in an Impala, Caprice, Delta 88, and Wildcat.

I do like that there was still a Brougham convertible in '69.

I used to detest the '70 big Pontiacs, but they've actually grown on me a bit, basically because I NEVER see a nice, original/authentic one and really even almost never see a clapped-out one.

Actually, a strong cleaner WOULD take the model name off the wood grain! I know from experience, as it happened on the '69 Bonneville 4-door hardtop I once owned. I went to wipe down the dash and other areas, and the cleaner took off some of the gold embossing. IIRC, it would take off the border of that woodgrain piece, as well.

For 1970 they fixed it though, putting a real badge there that said "Bonneville", so I wonder if GM became aware of the problem early on?

stickguy

Am I the only one here with no interest in or liking of full sized old American cars? I feel like an outcast!

berri

Sit back, relax and enjoy the "boat" ride

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not fond of them but there are notable exceptions. like the first Chrysler 300 letter cars and the early Mustang fastbacks. Oh, and the early 50s "tin" wagons.

stickguy said:

Am I the only one here with no interest in or liking of full sized old American cars? I feel like an outcast!

Michaell

stickguy said:

Am I the only one here with no interest in or liking of full sized old American cars? I feel like an outcast!

You aren't the only one. My only experience with that era was my grandmothers' 1967 Mercury Monterrey coupe. 390 V8 and you could fit many many bodies in the trunk. Drove it to Los Angeles a couple of times after I got my license.

My mom and uncle sold it after she passed, but I'd love to find one for nostalgic purposes.

stever

I don't miss 'em either but have to say I enjoyed tooling around in the mother-in-law's Buick up in the UP. But heck, that was a relatively compact twenty-first century model.

After learning to drive stick on a '57 Chevy three on a tree that I really disliked in so many ways, I could never understand the love for those old boats. And it's a wonder I didn't roll my mom's late 60's GMC pickup on the gravel roads where I grew up.

texases

When I wanted to give myself a good scare I'd drive my dad's '63 Polara with the 383 cid 4 bbl, tiny tires, 3 on the tree...

uplanderguy

My hunch is that I'm one of the oldest who posts here. Where I grew up, and even where I live now, old British/German/Italian/Swedish/Japanese iron is rarely seen now, and in fact rarely was seen "then".

Our Pontiac dealer took on Subaru in the early '70's, but dropped them after a couple years. I remember the first time I checked one out. I was shocked at the small wheels/tires, the smell of the interior vinyl and plastics, and the thinness of the doors and the ashtray cover inside. In fact, a small piece of trim fell off in my hand. Now I know Subarus are loved by a lot of folks, but that was my intro to them way back then. I admit that that was a long time ago.

stickguy

Well I'm early 50s. I vaguely recall my parents having a FS Chevy wagon, but they got rid of it for a Volvo when I was 6 or 7. And the grandparents we saw a lot of had an older Volvo then some VWs. Guess I just didn't have direct exposure!

Most of my early cars were domestic, but not huge. Camaro, gremlin, duster, hornet. The went foreign with Corolla and Opel. And only the Camaro was an AT, which is why I moved up to the duster!

Only big cars since were a Nissan PU and an odyssey.

fintail

I like some of them from a styling standpoint, but sometimes the driving experience or build quality is less than perfect. Of course, the imports of the era had issues, too.

stickguy said:

Am I the only one here with no interest in or liking of full sized old American cars? I feel like an outcast!

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm not fond of them but there are notable exceptions. like the first Chrysler 300 letter cars and the early Mustang fastbacks. Oh, and the early 50s "tin" wagons.

Well, the early Mustangs were not remotely close to full-size American iron. Built on a Falcon chassis. And not built very well once demand went through the roof.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

Our Pontiac dealer took on Subaru in the early '70's, but dropped them after a couple years. I remember the first time I checked one out. I was shocked at the small wheels/tires, the smell of the interior vinyl and plastics, and the thinness of the doors and the ashtray cover inside. In fact, a small piece of trim fell off in my hand. Now I know Subarus are loved by a lot of folks, but that was my intro to them way back then. I admit that that was a long time ago.

I haven't driven a Subaru in a few years, but when I was shopping in '02 I did, and was shocked by how flimsy certain parts of it seemed even then. I remember the doors being thin and the hinges looked really tiny.

fintail

Yep, pop up lights. I want to say the hatch was 86-87 or 88 only, but I am not sure. The sedans, and to a lesser extent the coupes, are still relatively common in this area - they were insanely popular here when new.

Michaell said:

That was the model with the pop-up headlights, right?

I had an '85 Accord LX hatch when I graduated college. Also maroon, and I really wanted to add the gold basketweave wheels to it. Never happened.

ab348

The thing about full-size American cars of the '60s isn't that they were great cars overall - of course they weren't. Lousy brakes, numb steering, boat-like handling. Properly equipped they could go fast in a straight line and that's about it dynamically. It is the experience of driving one that matters - the exterior size, the heft, the ride, the interior in the luxe models, the ability to cruise the interstate like no import of that era could ever hope to, the interior and trunk space, the overall sense of "dammit, I don't care so get out of my way!" they give off. It was an old way of designing and building cars that just doesn't exist any more.

Michaell

fintail said:

Yep, pop up lights. I want to say the hatch was 86-87 or 88 only, but I am not sure. The sedans, and to a lesser extent the coupes, are still relatively common in this area - they were insanely popular here when new.

Michaell said:

That was the model with the pop-up headlights, right?

I had an '85 Accord LX hatch when I graduated college. Also maroon, and I really wanted to add the gold basketweave wheels to it. Never happened.

I lived in CA in the 80's, and they were insanely popular there as well. This was when the quotas were in effect, and Honda dealers had a license to print money by putting the ADM stickers on their cars.

Of course, what we didn't know at the time was the massive corruption going on within the sales force of American Honda.

"Arrogance and Accords" from Steve Lynch documented the whole thing from an insider's perspective.

imidazol97

Michaell said:

Of course, what we didn't know at the time was the massive corruption going on within the sales force of American Honda.

"Arrogance and Accords" from Steve Lynch documented the whole thing from an insider's perspective.

Glad to see you mention that book. That was a very good book. I also enjoyed Bob Lutz's book, Car Guys Versus Bean Counters. Another book that was good is The Making of the Car That Saved Ford [Eric Taub].

uplanderguy

The thing about full-size American cars of the '60s isn't that they were great cars overall - of course they weren't. Lousy brakes, numb steering, boat-like handling. Properly equipped they could go fast in a straight line and that's about it dynamically. It is the experience of driving one that matters - the exterior size, the heft, the ride, the interior in the luxe models, the ability to cruise the interstate like no import of that era could ever hope to, the interior and trunk space, the overall sense of "dammit, I don't care so get out of my way!" they give off. It was an old way of designing and building cars that just doesn't exist any more.

For me, also, it was the excitement of being able to choose sixteen colors, contrasting roof colors or vinyl tops, six or eight interior colors, three levels of trim, etc. etc. etc. It used to be you never saw an exact duplicate of another car...seriously. Options were so numerous and could be combined in so many ways that virtually each car was unique. I'd say the domestics were like this up until the early or mid-eighties.

Call it 'planned obsolescence', but it was exciting to see the new models each fall--all-new bodies usually in the second or third year, and new grille and taillight styling, usually, in the off years. It was a big deal when the new model year cars were unveiled. Dealers would actually hide the cars beforehand.

Now, I simply couldn't care less.

That, and the cars were so simple, that most V8 cars didn't have major ($$) problems, and when they did in a few years' time, it didn't break the bank to buy a new car, unlike now.

stever

uplanderguy said:

Call it 'planned obsolescence', but it was exciting to see the new models each fall--all-new bodies usually in the second or third year, and new grille and taillight styling, usually, in the off years.

Volkswagen made a lot of hay advertising just the opposite back in those days.

bhill2

I did enjoy the ala-carte option selection; you probably had a hundred boxes you could decide whether to check or not. Of course, that was if you wanted to wait several weeks for the car to be built and delivered. The dealer would prefer that you buy one they already had on the lot, so if you were somewhat flexible you could get a deal and drive home your new pride and joy that day.

fintail

1985 Camry in the workplace parking garage, a MB W124 with a bodykit, and a funky old Dodge campervan on the road, exactly like this:



This one had orange trim, and looked to be in very good condition. I think some people are saving these things now.

berri

Those big old tanks obviously didn't drive as tight as today's cars, but back then the roads were in better shape and less crowded. You could cruise for hours and not really be tired. As previously noted, they were roomy and comfortable - lots of leg and headroom and big, long comfortable seat cushions. Didn't hurt that those big V8's gave off huge doses of torque either when driving in headwinds or up hills and mountains.

tjc78

fintail said:

Yep, pop up lights. I want to say the hatch was 86-87 or 88 only, but I am not sure. The sedans, and to a lesser extent the coupes, are still relatively common in this area - they were insanely popular here when new.

That was the model with the pop-up headlights, right? I had an '85 Accord LX hatch when I graduated college. Also maroon, and I really wanted to add the gold basketweave wheels to it. Never happened.

My Stepbrothers first car was a pop up light 4 door Accord.  It was the top line model, with the biggest engine.  I hated that car. 

Michaell

tjc78 said:

fintail said:

Yep, pop up lights. I want to say the hatch was 86-87 or 88 only, but I am not sure. The sedans, and to a lesser extent the coupes, are still relatively common in this area - they were insanely popular here when new.

Michaell said:

That was the model with the pop-up headlights, right?

I had an '85 Accord LX hatch when I graduated college. Also maroon, and I really wanted to add the gold basketweave wheels to it. Never happened.

My Stepbrothers first car was a pop up light 4 door Accord.  It was the top line model, with the biggest engine.  I hated that car. 

Not sure there was an EX trim level at that time ... I do remember there being an LX-I which was the fuel injected engine.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

The '68 is padded more, as all cars were getting by then.

I wonder if the wood on the dash of the '65's was real, or veneer, like the '73 Grand Prix's? It sure looks like it. The '68 had pretty run-of-the-mill woodgrained vinyl accents.

I wonder if there was some kind of government requirement on crash padding that was enacted for 1968, specifically, that required more padding on the interiors? My '68 Dart 270 was a bit extra-padded, compared to my '69 Dart GT. The 270 had a piece of padding that ran along the lower edge of the dash, about level with the steering column. It stuck out about 2-3", and curved up at the sides of the dash. It made a handy shelf for putting things like pens, cassette tapes, etc, even if they slid around if you took a corner too fast. It also had padding around the a/c ducts that were stuck on underneath, and I think the front edge of the ash tray was padded as well. oh, and the center of the steering wheel had a big padded hub.

The '69 didn't have any of that stuff, just the regular padding on the top of the dashboard. The steering wheel had padding in the center, but it wasn't a big hub that stuck out.

As for real wood in Pontiacs, I want to say the Grand Prix at least used it up through 1967?

ab348

I think in '68 the manufacturers were still trying to figure out a lot of the new regulations. The first requirements kicked in in '67 with collapsible steering columns and dual-circuit brakes, but there were many more requirements added in '68. I suspect they were not totally clear in their description. I know my '68 Cutlass has all the switches on the dash totally flush with the surface and has no protruding knobs, foe example. They reverted back to knobs for '69.

fintail

Yep, for the pre-90 models, the hierarchy was DX/LX/LX-i. For the excellently redesigned 1990+ models, it was DX/LX/EX, and in Canada it was LX/EX/EX-R. This is useful data for everyday life in 2015

Michaell said:

Not sure there was an EX trim level at that time ... I do remember there being an LX-I which was the fuel injected engine.

uplanderguy

Growing up on domestics, that kind of model hierarchy gave me a headache--LOL.

Michaell

fintail said:

Yep, for the pre-90 models, the hierarchy was DX/LX/LX-i. For the excellently redesigned 1990+ models, it was DX/LX/EX, and in Canada it was LX/EX/EX-R. This is useful data for everyday life in 2015

Michaell said:

Not sure there was an EX trim level at that time ... I do remember there being an LX-I which was the fuel injected engine.

And all the Accords from 1990 were injected. We had both a '92 LX and '93 DX sedans in addition to the '85 LX hatch.

uplanderguy

If the '65 (and '66) Bonnevilles and Grand Prixs used real wood, or veneer--and to me it looks like it, although I'm no expert--I'm pretty sure all '67 Pontiacs and later used fake wood vinyl accents. If you got a '67 Grand Prix with bench seat, the dash was the same as a Catalina other than the "suitcase handle" under the glovebox door.

andre1969

stickguy said:

Am I the only one here with no interest in or liking of full sized old American cars? I feel like an outcast!

One reason I like them is that they tended to offer more variety than smaller cars, and were usually built better. When you think about it, standard-sized cars were the bread and butter of the American auto industry, and as a result they got really good at giving you literally, a lot of car for your money. So, when compact cars came out, and later on, intermediates, they tended to cut corners to keep the prices low. Standard-sized cars also tended to come in the full array of body styles...2- and 4-door sedans, 2- and 4-door hardtops, convertibles, and wagons. Smaller cars didn't always offer that wide variety.

Full-sized cars also gave you more options, trim levels, and could be optioned up to be quite plush. Compact cars and, to a lesser degree, intermediates, were often viewed as bargain-basement transportation, so they tended to be relatively spartan inside. Of course, there were exceptions, and by the time the mid-70's rolled around, you could get a Dart or Valiant that had as much shag, velour, and padding as a Caddy or Lincoln.

Then, there were the engines. If you wanted a V-8 in a compact, it often made it nose-heavy, and it had to be beefed up...which added weight and would affect handling. Midsized cars handled it better, but full-sized cars just tended to be better-balanced. Often though, by the time these smaller cars were beefed up enough to handle the big engines, there wasn't *that* big of a difference in weight between them and a full-sized car that was designed from the get-go to handle the bigger engines.

In my case, I tend to go for bigger cars because I like a roomy car. And while it's true that a bigger car can be more ponderous to park, maneuver in tight spots, etc, I've spent most of my life in the suburbs and more rural areas, where an extra foot or two doesn't make that much difference. And, provided the parking space is adequately sized to begin with, it's not necessarily the size of a car that makes it hard to park, but other factors such as visibility (how well can you see out of the car, and can you see the corners), how rounded off the car's corners are (a 220" car with a prow-shaped front might be easier to park than a 210" car that's totally flat-faced), and how sharply the front wheels can turn.

For the most part, I like the style of bigger cars, too. Up to a point, at least. Smaller cars end up looking stubby, whereas bigger cars often have nicer proportions, in my opinion. The ratio of hood to passenger cabin to decklid is just more appealing to me with a larger car. And, of course, there are exceptions, as there are smaller cars I find attractive, and bigger cars that I don't like.

uplanderguy

As is obvious, I love Studebakers as to external size versus interior space...my three Larks were roomy and were pretty nimble to maneuver and went down the road straight and flat. I like the svelte proportions. And I like the 'under the radar' nature of later Studes. That said, there isn't a bad '65 GM full-size IMHO, and there's no denying the value-per-pound-and-dollar that domestic full-sizes provided for a lot of years.

We had a new Chevelle ('67) and a new Nova ('73), then a new Impala ('74). As high-volume a car as an Impala was, it had better visible workmanship and fewer new-car assembly defects than the two cars before it. When the division actually referred to the big cars as "Chevrolet", it's probably what they were proudest of.

fintail

The generic letter model heirarchy idea was already in place on many cars by the time I was a kid. Like Tempo L/GL/GLX, Taurus L/GL/LX, etc. I think Chevy had a similar thing too with CL and LS etc.