I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

Today in traffic spotted a 75-76 Cadillac hearse and a VW Phaeton. And the oddity, a GSXR 750 from maybe 1990, with garish period decals intact. It looked to be in decent shape (survival rate for these has to be minuscule) and sounded very carbureted. I loved the look of those dual round light bikes when I was a kid, and they are still pretty cool.

berri

Personally, I think if Studebaker had forgone Packard, whether it tied to Nash Hudson or not, it may have had a bit more cash for product development, but it likely wouldn't have lasted any longer than it did. The Big 3 just got so large and powerful, and the proliferation of the many different classes and sizes of cars was just becoming too expensive for independents to compete. Ironically, Rambler and Studebaker each ended up primarily relying on a basic car chassis, plus Rambler also had the ancient American chassis. The companies were more alike than you may think. Both had union militancy that I believe probably brought about their demise a few years earlier than otherwise. Heck, the labor costs and rules, as well as all of the dealer state laws and increasing gov regulations, were likely drivers of the cost cutting, design lethargy and quality declines that almost put Chrysler in the grave.

It is kind of ironic how D3 and our gov almost destroyed Detroit. The issues above painted D3 with a bad customer image which fair or not, still doesn't seem to be fully eradicated. The D3 push for import limitations and quota's brought about the Transplants that gave Asia an even bigger footprint allowing them to expand product offerings here and Detroit essentially lost the luxury market to the German's and Lexus. Otoh, gov fuel economy mandates opened up the truck and van demand that probably saved Detroit, and it is where D3 is still strong today. Basically, it seems like Japan and Germany replaced the independents over time in our marketplace.

uplanderguy

Packard had much more cash-in-hand at the time of the purchase by Packard, and Studebaker's breakeven point was understated by people within Studebaker, which was bad. But Packard had its own problems, and sold only 27K 1954 models. In 1956, between the medium-priced Clipper and luxury Packard lines, they managed only 28K units. The loss position in '57 was only 1/4 what it was in '56, with a relatively unchanged Studebaker line and no Packard line. The Lark gave them several more years, and in fact in '59 Studebaker made the largest profit in its over one-hundred-year-old history. I like what they were doing in the '62-64 model years, especially, although it was too late. They last sold over 100K cars in '62.

My personal feeling is that Studebaker spent a lot more on product in the post-war years leading up to the acquisition than Packard--early new post-war styling, new trucks for the '49 model year, V8 engine in '51, and the '53 line was really two new cars--not a single piece of sheetmetal or glass will interchange between a coupe and sedan (I question that decision, though). We'll never know if Packard would've survived the '58 recession and resultant interest in smaller cars had they not purchased Studebaker, but Edsel's lineup mimicked Packard's in that there was a 'junior' and 'senior' line, and in fact Edsel was managed by Packard's last president, James Nance. I am aware of Edsel dealers being bailed out by getting Studebaker franchises in '59 when the Lark took off, although of course that happiness was over by '61 for the most part.

imidazol97

I enjoy reading the behind the scenes information about Studebaker and Packard. I remember the cars and the era. But reading the history in the back office stories is like watching events with Walter Cronkite (the last real reporter?) in "You Are There."

berri

I didn't know that about Nance and Edsel. Thanks Uplander. I love automotive history!

Mr_Shiftright

Packard's strong point (and talent base) was engineering, not so much styling.

uplanderguy

Sent to me by a friend who has passes to Mecum in Indy for the auction, because he knows I really like '61 Impalas:

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/SC0516-243488/0/1961-Chevrolet-Impala-Bubble-Top/Automatic/

That car is gorgeous to my eyes, although for some OCD-reason I hate that they had the radio buttons spell out "CHEVY". A van is a 'Chevy'; a Chevy II is a 'Chevy', but an Impala is a 'Chevrolet'! Similarly, I'd hate to see "STUDE" or "OLDS" on radio buttons.

That's not a deal-breaker for me on that car, though.

There are a few Chevys--'55-56, '61, '65, second-gen Corvairs, Cosworth Vegas--that I love still and totally blow out-of-the-water my "under the radar" BS, LOL.

BTW, my friend is very happy now that he has the red '63 Riviera in his hands. He says the shipper that I and another friend told him about, based on experiences from Studebaker Club members, was perfect.

stever

Now this is a pickup. Didn't think to tape it but I bet the liftover height is lower than on my minivan.

Michaell

stever said:

Now this is a pickup. Didn't think to tape it but I bet the liftover height is lower than on my minivan.

 Those mini pick ups were incredibly popular when I was growing up in California in the 70s 

fintail

From that angle, 1976-78. With the tires and ride height, no doubt some kind of "patina"-filled semi rat rod kind of thing.

fintail

With continued high prices at auction, I wouldn't be surprised to see it easily hit the estimate. A restored one isn't exactly cheap, and originality is a big thing.

uplanderguy said:

Sent to me by a friend who has passes to Mecum in Indy for the auction, because he knows I really like '61 Impalas:

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/SC0516-243488/0/1961-Chevrolet-Impala-Bubble-Top/Automatic/

imidazol97

fintail said:

With continued high prices at auction, I wouldn't be surprised to see it easily hit the estimate. A restored one isn't exactly cheap, and originality is a big thing.

I love that Chevy. I recall that being very desirable during my high school days. White with red on a '60 or '61 Chevrolet--beautiful. This car is original in appearance and that's what stops me at a car show and I thank the owner for keeping it original instead of adding a continental kit, for example.

texases

That Chevy looks great, but 2-bbl + 2 spd AT + manual steering and brakes = not a lot of use (for me).

ab348

uplanderguy said:

That car is gorgeous to my eyes, although for some OCD-reason I hate that they had the radio buttons spell out "CHEVY". A van is a 'Chevy'; a Chevy II is a 'Chevy', but an Impala is a 'Chevrolet'! Similarly, I'd hate to see "STUDE" or "OLDS" on radio buttons.

Buick did that for years though, and I always thought it was cool.

BTW, my friend is very happy now that he has the red '63 Riviera in his hands. He says the shipper that I and another friend told him about, based on experiences from Studebaker Club members, was perfect.

How do you like his radio?

uplanderguy

I'm OK with "Buick", as it's not short for something.

If the buttons spelled "Rivvy", I'd detest it, LOL.

uplanderguy

Touching again on the subject of stupefyingly-dumb car misinformation in the media, I heard that the History Channel's show 'Car Hunters' just showed a '63 Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk and mentioned that the 289 engine was purchased from Ford. Geez, lift a finger and do the most minimum of research!

andre1969

Maybe Chevy could have made the buttons on the radio spell out "Impala", but for only the Impala? And either just "Chevy" or nothing at all for the lesser models. That could've given a bit more catchet to the Impala. Of course, you'd still have to figure out what to do with the Corvette radio. "Vette" would fit, but like "Chevy", it's also a nickname, rather than a proper name.

If my Grandmother's '85 LeSabre had buttons like that, it would've only spelled out "BUIC"

sda

uplanderguy said:

I'm OK with "Buick", as it's not short for something.

If the buttons spelled "Rivvy", I'd detest it, LOL.

Is that the original radio in the 63? AM/FM has to be really rare and was an expensive option.

On some Buick radios, didn't they spell out Sonomatic somewhere on the dial? Seems I remember that being the case on a friend's 60 LeSabre. I think it had BUICK on the pushbuttons as well.

uplanderguy

I remember seeing "Sonomatic" in script on the dial on early '60's Buicks, too.

I agree, AM/FM is pretty rare on a '63 vehicle. I think '64 was the first year Studebaker to have them and they are a highly-coveted option or swap meet find today.

uplanderguy

Back to that '61 Chevy--I really like the body styling of the hardtop coupes that year. I know most folks like '62-64 Impalas, but I like each succeeding year a little less than the year before it. Now, I could really like a '62 Bel Air Sport Coupe (the only Chevy bubbletop that year) but it seems that every one has since been converted to a 409. I could enjoy a 283 or 327 in one, whitewalls, full wheelcovers, nice conversation starter!

berri

Uplander - must be some kind of aging thing because I'm also kind of now preferring the 61 Chevy whereas I preferred the 62 and 63 when I was younger.

sda

fintail--this one is calling you 1976 230 https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/654329867/overview/?aff=criteo&BAC=criteolf91814

uplanderguy

berri, just personal preference I guess, but in GM full-size cars, I tend to like the glassy or fastback roofs of the '60's--back when they offered an upper-model with them. Similarly, in the mid-and-later sixties, I always liked the Bonneville, Wildcat, and Delta Custom (two-door fastbacks) better than even the Electra and Ninety-Eight models which were styled more formally.

fintail

Nice looking car, you certainly couldn't restore one cheaper. Unusual in that it is the final run of W114 (In fact, I think W123 production began in February 1976, so this is really at the end with the 2/76 date on the VIN tag), and the smallest engine sold in NA (but no doubt faster than a 240D). If it is as nice mechanically as it looks cosmetically, a good car for the enthusiast of that platform.

sda said:

fintail--this one is calling you 1976 230 https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/654329867/overview/?aff=criteo&BAC=criteolf91814

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

berri, just personal preference I guess, but in GM full-size cars, I tend to like the glassy or fastback roofs of the '60's--back when they offered an upper-model with them. Similarly, in the mid-and-later sixties, I always liked the Bonneville, Wildcat, and Delta Custom (two-door fastbacks) better than even the Electra and Ninety-Eight models which were styled more formally.

I think in the mid and later 60's, a problem with the Electra and Ninety-Eight is that the 2-door versions were getting too long overall, without a proportional increase in the length of the passenger cabin, and that made them look awkward. It was mainly in the '67-68 and '69-70 versions...I'm fine with the '65-66 and '71-74 C-body coupes. At the same time though, I wasn't a huge fan of the fastback style of the '67-68 B-body coupes...it seemed like the C's were too formal, and the B's were too radical, but there was no happy medium.

The 4-door versions of the C-body seemed to have a correspondingly larger passenger cabin, so the proportions seemed better balanced than the coupes, in my opinion.

As for the '59-64 styles, I prefer the "bubble top" '59-61 (and '62 Bel Air) roofline to the more formal '62-64.

uplanderguy

The '67 and '68 big Olds B-body coupes were the most radical, IMHO. I probably like a '68 Wildcat best of all the GM makes then, in a two-door hardtop.

bhill2

Offbeat soul that I am, in '61 my favorite Impala was the Sport Sedan (4-door hardtop). But then, I have a soft spot for 4-door hardtops in general.

texases

Mine a few years later, the '67:

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Touching again on the subject of stupefyingly-dumb car misinformation in the media, I heard that the History Channel's show 'Car Hunters' just showed a '63 Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk and mentioned that the 289 engine was purchased from Ford. Geez, lift a finger and do the most minimum of research!

What do you expect from a Channel that hosts "Ancient Aliens"?

berri

I know most people go for the convertibles and coupes, but the 60's had a lot of decent looking 4 doors and wagons too.

uplanderguy

My grandparents had a plum-colored '67 Impala Sport Coupe, matching cloth interior, basic 283 and Powerglide, that as a kid I thought was really pretty, especially compared to our low-rent '67 Chevelle 300 Deluxe 4-door. I always thought the '67 Chevy had, probably, the best Impala instrument panel of the sixties.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I always thought the '67 Chevy had, probably, the best Impala instrument panel of the sixties.

No question. I never understood why in '68 they took the same dash panel and stuck a typical GM strip speedometer in there. Ruined it.

uplanderguy

...and, overall, I think the quality of the decoration (moldings, etc.) on the dash and doors and seats went down a notch for '68, too. I guess they had to pay for the wheel opening moldings and protective side moldings the '68 had standard which the '67 didn't--although none of that looked as nice as the '67 either I don't think.

sda

texases said:

Mine a few years later, the '67:

Nice looking 4dr hardtop. Where was this Impala built? I have never seen one with the windshield wipers configured like that for 67. The full size Olds, Buick, and Cadillac did, however.

fintail

Today spotted a white NSX, that same Amazon wagon I see a bit, questionably driven late 60s Beetle.

andre1969

It's interesting that GM would go through the trouble to have three different wiper configurations for its full-sized cars...1) wipers exposed, and opposite from each other (Buick, Olds, Cadillac...and that particular Chevy), 2) wipers exposed, but sweeping in the same direction (a "normal" Chevy) and 3) wipers hidden, and opposite from each other (Pontiac).

In the overall scheme of things, I wonder how much it would have saved them to just come up with one configuration to use across the lineup? I know GM had money to burn in those days, and the divisions had more autonomy, but still...

I guess with the hidden wipers at least, maybe they tried that on Pontiac first to see how buyers liked it, and then expanded it?

uplanderguy

It's very observant of sda to notice the wipers being different on that '67 Impala. I'd have never noticed that.

Where I grew up, Dads of guys my age complained about the 'concealed wipers' because of snow and ice getting stuck down there, LOL. They also complained about removal of vent windows.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

It's very observant of sda to notice the wipers being different on that '67 Impala. I'd have never noticed that.

Where I grew up, Dads of guys my age complained about the 'concealed wipers' because of snow and ice getting stuck down there, LOL. They also complained about removal of vent windows.

That Chevy pictured is flaky. If you search for images of '67 Chevys, that is the only one you'll find with that configuration - all the others are parallelogram type. The car pictured is wearing what I think is an Australian plate so who knows WTH they did down there.

Hidden wipers are a bit of a pain during winters even today with the typical semi-hidden designs. IIRC the early Pontiac designs for them had a moveable cover over the cavity which complicated things even more.

In my recollection the most complaints about the loss of vent windows came from smokers.

sda

I remember walking to school when I was in the 3rd grade in 1967 and saw parked on the street a brand new 67 Pontiac Grand Prix. It was black on black and really sharp. With the hidden wipers (which I had to find out where they were located), hidden headlamps and GTO slat like tail lights, I thought that was one neat looking car!

fintail

Hidden wipers are cool, others got in on the act, too:



I've never noticed "clap hands" wipers like that on a 67 Chevy, or in my memory, one past 1960. I had assumed the old style wipers were maybe seen as old fashioned in the 60s, and most domestics changed to the parallel type at the beginning of the decade. As was said, I bet that's an export thing.

I don't smoke and never have, but I like vent windows - I often have one open when driving the fintail.

stever

I miss them too, and the vents in the foot wells. One of my west coast friends has been driving an F-150 forever - special ordered with vinyl flooring (boater/sailor) - and he has wing vents.

kyfdx

Yeah.. if you grew up without A/C in your car, the vent windows were great.

My mother's '62 Star Chief and '67 Bonneville had the opposing wipers. I always noticed that Fords weren't that way, and thought the other style was "weird". Funny what you remember from when you were a kid.

uplanderguy

For some reason, in my mind, opposing wipers were used on big and/or more-expensive cars. I remember the '88 Buick Regal brought them back.

'62 Star Chief--nice car, but when you see one in profile now, it's amazing how short the hood and how long the deck is. That's the reverse of what became widespread in the industry just a few years later.

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes I miss certain aspects of being a kid---like being allowed to crawl up into the back shelf of the car, or getting a chemistry set that actually let you make gunpowder so you could blow up your plastic models.

roadburner

The C3 Corvette originally had its wipers hidden under a motorized panel. I remember that either Car and Driver or Road & Track criticized the design because there was an appreciable delay between activating the wipers and the wipers actually beginning to do their job. It looked cool though...

berri

I hate these new automatic electronic climate control systems. It assumes when it decides what to do, so on a cool day in the 50's or low 60's that also has sunshine it wants to blast the heater instead of the A/C. Bring back the levers from the old GM days or the round control knobs from the old Taurus and Camry. They really were more responsive to reality. Sometimes analog trumps digital.

stevedebi

berri said:

I hate these new automatic electronic climate control systems. It assumes when it decides what to do, so on a cool day in the 50's or low 60's that also has sunshine it wants to blast the heater instead of the A/C. Bring back the levers from the old GM days or the round control knobs from the old Taurus and Camry. They really were more responsive to reality. Sometimes analog trumps digital.

My wife has a VW Passat TDI SE. It has manual controls for HVAC. She really likes it. Turn the dial for temperature, fan speed, type of HVAC, and direction of travel - all manual.

sda

berri said:

I hate these new automatic electronic climate control systems. It assumes when it decides what to do, so on a cool day in the 50's or low 60's that also has sunshine it wants to blast the heater instead of the A/C. Bring back the levers from the old GM days or the round control knobs from the old Taurus and Camry. They really were more responsive to reality. Sometimes analog trumps digital.

I know on our two Hondas, we leave it in 'Auto' most of the time. However there are times as you mention that 'Auto' delivery is not ideal. Honda gives you the ability to override and select fan speed, temp and outlet control, so we manually select at those times.

stickguy

I have nothing but auto CC and hate it. I manually turn off AC and make it as manual as possible, but the system still changes the temp on me.

berri

Well we're not technophobes Stick. I'll wager that if you ask pilots from airlines like United and Delta, those who have flown both Airbus and Boeing will tend to prefer the Boeing. Why - The Airbus had too much computer automation in the cockpit. For example, the computer averages the captain and co-pilot input and essentially provides the resulting average to both pilots controls. Boeing doesn't do that and I think in certain situations the Boeing approach is preferable.