I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

jlawrence01

If you come across any minicars over on EBay, let me know. I have afriend who collects who is away from his computer for a while ...

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lemko

"When I was younger I never cared for those things, but I can appreciate a maintained one."

You would really like my '89 model! I've kept this car in excellent condition. It even still has the new car smell. It also has the correct Uniroyal Royal Seal tires. I once had a guy in a new Lexus LS430 pull up next to me at a light and tried to make an offer for it.

andre1969

of those big, squared-off RWD Caddies. I didn't like 'em so much though in 1990, when they went to the composite headlights, which gave it kind of a cataract-ic look. Composite headlights are okay on slicked-back, rounded, aerodynamic cars, but on a more angular, crisply styled car, I think the older-style rectangular quad headlamps look better.

lemko

...the sleek RWD Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and Buick Regal went to composite lights in 1987. They looked pretty goofy. The 1990-92 Cadillac Broughams also had oddball clear lenses with red bulbs. I recall Chrysler tried something like that in 1965 along with the glass covers over the quad headlights.

fintail

I can't think of any car that really looked right when it got a facelift and got composite lights. You can always just kind of tell when the car was designed for something else, and the new look doesn't look right. The same holds true for foreign cars of the 70s and early 80s that were designed for composite lights in the home market, but were forced to wear seperate lights for NA.

Your Caddy sounds interesting, lemko. My '89 S class is the equivalent to that car, in condition and year too.

andre1969

the only car I can think of, off the top of my head, that looked good in the switch to composite headlights was the 1987 Ford T-bird. I think it looked good either way...the '83-86 with the deeply inset rectangular lights, or the '87-88, with the composites. But then, it also got enough of a reskin to incorporate them into the design.

Lemko, the RWD Regal never got composite headlights, but the Cutlass Supreme did, as did the Chevy Monte Carlo LS, which actually got them in 1986. The Caprice got composites in '87, IIRC. Once I saw a Pontiac Safari station wagon with composites, as well. Must've been a one-off or something that someone customized though, because I've never seen another. This was back in 1987, and I saw it on Spring Break in Florida, so it would've been an '87, at the newest. Maybe it was an export model that never made it out of North America, or something?

kyfdx

The local used car dealer has an '87 S class sitting in front for sale. Navy with the gray rocker panels. Turbodiesel, I think.. It looks great.. I'm guessing maintaining it might be expensive?

regards,
kyfdx

michaellno

While out running errands on Saturday, I saw a car I could not recognize.

Early 60's 2 door, butter cream in color, had the label "Imperial" on the trunk. Small fins on the rear fenders. Big sucker, perfectly restored.

Andre, could you find and post a few pix of what this might be so I can identify it?

Thanks!

andre1969

like either a '60 or '61 Imperial. They shaved the fins off for '62, although it was still the same, massive body.

Here's a website that shows pics of Imperials from 1956 through 1968, but it dosn't show a pic of the '60's front-end. http://www.thefreewheelers.org/Marque_0601.html

Here's a better pic of the '60, showing the front-end...


Do any of these pics look familiar?

michaellno

Whoops -- helps to add content before posting!

Thanks for the pix and the link ... I didn't get a good look at the front end, but the fins didn't seem to be quite so tall.

Might have been an "in-betweener" --- not the real large fins of the early 60's and not the smoothed down look of the mid to later 60's, either - my cousin's grandmother had a '65 (?) Fury convertible, which seemed more "sqaured off" to me, when compared to the car I saw on Saturday.

BTW, this was a hardtop, not a convertible.

kyfdx

1) Mid '70s Ramcharger with the removeable roof (which was off). These were big full-sized two door SUVs, for those that don't remember them. The entire roof and rear cover comes off the truck.

2) Mid '80s Landcruiser.. Semi-jacked up on big tires.. Literally in the next lane over from the Ramcharger. Looked to be in excellent condition.

andre1969

well, here are a few more pics, of Imperial rumps...

A 1962, which has the big fins shaved off, but still a suggestion of one, along with the "toilet seat" bulge in the trunk and "gunsight" taillights...


A 1963, which is much cleaner in style, with rear fins/blades toned down a bit more, integrated, Valiant-like taillights, and no "toilet seat"...


For '64, they re-did the whole rear-end, and it really showed the Ford influence of Elwood Engle, who jumped ship with Ford and signed on with Chrysler in 1962, IIRC...

michaellno

I think the middle pix is it! The '63 seems to be the one.

Thanks!

Also, a few weeks ago I saw a mid 70's 280SL convertible - the same body style as the 450SL and 450SLC ('76ish). I didn't think they brought the 280 engine over to the US in that model ... I've seen a few 350SL's and a bunch of 450's in my time. I know the 280 was available in the sedan offering.

andre1969

I saw one of these on Sunday...

seminole_kev

I know you're not going to like this, but I find almost all of Chrysler's (and its siblings) early 60's styling ugly-to-revolting. Not until the late 60's did they start making some good looking cars to me.

Not sure what it is as I like most of the Ford, GM and mainstream imports of the early 60's styling, but Chrysler just made some weird stuff to me.

andys120

The 280SL wasn't offered in the later body styles in the US. Possibly you saw a grey market car or one belonging to a diplomat.

andre1969

don't worry, no offense taken! I think Chrysler in general started to lose it in 1959, with ugly Plymouths and overdone Dodges, although the DeSotos and Chryslers, and Imperials didn't look too bad...yet. They made up for it in '61, though!

By 1962, I think the best looking Mopar was probably the Dodge Custom 880, which was essentially a Chrysler Newport with a Dodge front-end. I never really liked the slanty headlights that Chrysler tried in '61-62, and the downsized Plymouths and Dodges of '62 were just too far-out! That dorky styling seemed to work okay on something like a Dart or Valiant, but just never went over that well on the bigger cars.

I got somebody pissed off at the Mopar Nationals back in 2003 when I made a comment about a really nicely restored 1961 Plymouth. I was just commenting that it wasn't hard to see why people were running to full-sized Fords and Chevies that year just as quickly as they were running AWAY from the Plymouths! Well, some guy (I hope it wasn't the car's owner) commented "Not ME!!! Man, I LOVE these things!"

Well, I do think they're kinda cool, in a defiance-of-good-taste sort of way, but to me the reason that they're cool is BECAUSE they're so ugly! I think Mopar pretty much got their act back together by 1965 though, when they launched their all-new '65 models.

One year, I pissed someone off at a GM show, who was commenting that the '82-83 Malibu police cruiser was his "dream car"! Maybe I just need to learn when to keep my mouth shut!! ;-)

kyfdx

Not just for diplomats.. There were two used car dealers in Cincinnati area in the early '80s that were importing euro BMWs and Mercedes. The 280SL you saw was likely one of those.. Usually, the bumpers were smaller.

regards,
kyfdx

jrosasmc

While doing some cleaning at my college's library (where I work), I found some recent books that would definitely be of interest to you. I managed to read excerpts of a few of them...here they are:

Riding the Roller Coaster: A History of the Chrysler Corporation, by Charles Hyde (2003)

Taken for a Ride: How Daimler-Benz Drove off with Chrysler, by Bradley Stertz (2000)

Guts: The Seven Laws of Business That Made Chrysler the World's Hottest Car Company, by Robert Lutz (1998), with foreword by Robert Eaton

By the way, Andre, you'd know this better than I do...why do you think Lee Iacocca named Eaton as his successor at Chrysler in 1992, and not Lutz?

andys120

A friend of ours called the other night and invited herself over on her way home from Vermont.

Imagine my surprise when she pulls up in a late model metallic gray Crown Victoria with black steel wheels and a spotlight. I asked if she'd stolen it from the Mass. State Police and she said
her husband had bought it from them.

This was a guy who for years was lugging his keyboard all over New England in old Corollas and Camrys. I kept telling him that he needed an old rwd Caddy or something with some trunkage. He finally went for an old square body Caprice.

I must say the this Vic looked very cool, in a "Blues Brothers" way, meaner than any Marauder
and it seemed to be in decent shape.

jrosasmc

Andy- If you don't mind me asking where in Vermont is your friend from? (I'm from Bennington, in the SW corner)

wimsey1

Remined me that my cousin Tom had an Imp sedan of that era sitting on our farm for several years, no idea what he did with it. My brother and I ran down his battery playing with the power seats and stuff. Felt like you could set up a volleyball court in there.

Saw a second gen VW Scirroco yesterday, I wonder when I last saw a 1st gen? Lord Ferrous claimed most of them in the north I suspect.

andys120

She isn't from VT, she was headed home from there, she's from Natick.

jlawrence01

Do realize that there were a lot of old Germans in Cincinnati who would head over to Germany every year and purchase their new cars over there.

I had an uncle that used to do that about every five years.

michaellno

Yep, the 450SLC. When I was growing up, a friend of my dad's had one (he was a cardiologist) -- his was red, I think. I always thought it was a cool car (I guess that happens when you're 12 or 13!)

Re: 280SL. Yeah, I sort of thought they weren't imported here. Didn't look too close at the bumpers, so I cannot say if it was a grey market car.

Here in Denver, there are only a few cars with diplomatic tags --- mostly from Mexico, as they have a consulate in town.

But, with a fair number of military bases in Colorado (mostly in Co. Springs), I'll occasionally spot a car with plates from Guam or some other Pacific island. And, rarely, a car with Mexican plates on it.

I know this is off topic, but with the far ranging and utterly useless amount of trivial knowledge that is held by the members of this particular discussion group, I'll ask:

Why is it that license plates are one size here in North America (US, Mexico, Canada), and a different size in Europe?

kyfdx

The SLC was a hardtop... no convertible top. They are worth BIG money now.. (not).

michaellno

So, the idea was that the SLC is considered the predecessor to the CL class?

I also seem to remember that there was a 350SLC available in Europe ... I think I had a Matchbox version of that model, with the Euro headlights.

kyfdx

No.. the SLC was just the hardtop version of the SL. I could never figure it out, since you could buy an optional hardtop for the convertible.

michaellno

I thought the SLC had a back seat, useless as it was. So, it could be looked at as a "stretch" SL.

fintail, help me out here....

SL - sport, light (also, the top goes down)
CL - coupe, light (hardtop)
SLK - sport, light kurz (short)
CLK - coupe, light kurz (short)

E, S, C classes - sedans

kyfdx

It wasn't stretched.. I'm guessing the seat was because they didn't need room for the top to fold down.. I was thinking the convertibles had the rear seat also?

andre1969

sure looks like it was stretched out to me! One of my friends at work used to have a '73 or '74 450SL, the little 2-seater convertible, and it was much smaller. Looked like the same front-end clip, but then with a longer body attached.

Mr_Shiftright

Ja, der 450SLC is 14 inches longer. Does size matter? Not in this case. The SL is worth twice as much now as an SLC.

The SLC was supposed to compete with the Jaguar XJ-S, another car that is currently not setting the collector car market on fire (more like a fire extinguisher would be apt).

Big heavy coupes are not the flavor of the month in European cars as a rule, at least not to American tastes.

kyfdx

Also.. didn't the 350SLC and 380SLC pre-date the 450? Like maybe early '70s vs. mid '70s?

I'd like to be right about something today.

kyfdx

Looks like the 350 was euro only, and the 380 (early '80s) came after the 450.

michaellno

Yeah, the 3.8L V8 was introduced as a replacement for the 4.5L V8. When the SL was redesigned, they introduced the 5.6L V8 as well.

My old boss bought (well, the company bought) an '87/'88/'89 (I can't remember which model year) 560 SEL, bronze in color. His personalized license plate?

TH BEAZT.

He traded in an early 70's 250SL for this.

To my knowledge, he still has the car.

ghulet

...Mercedes designation confusion; designations used to be:

SL=Sport Light (AS IF)
SEL=Super Einspritzung (FI) Lang (long wheelbase)
C=Coupe (as in 250C, 500 SEC)
D=Diesel

Then the numbers designated engine size. I have to admit, I have no idea what the designations actually mean now (the L in CL or CLK can't possibly mean 'Long' or 'Light' any more). I just tell people, basically, 'you just have to know the models'. C is now a series designation for the sedan, but still means 'coupe' for the CLK....S is still 'sport' and 'super', depending on the car; 'E' is the mid-sized sedan moniker, no longer meaning 'fuel-injected', since the carbureator is dead. Confusing, bordering on meaningless. Back in the '60s, though, they made a bit more sense, and was perhaps a bit less random than naming cars after obscure sprinting mammals.

Mr_Shiftright

The 560SL was a much better car than the earlier V8 SLs, which were....ahem...a bit doggy if I may politely slander the model, or slander your dog, depending on your point of view. But with the final version, Benz finally got the 380/450/560SL family to perform with speed, agility and a modicum of economy. By all means spring for the 560 version. Worst models were mid-70s with the catalytic converters in the engine compartment. Can you say der (das?) vaporlocken? (theoretically a rare occurrence with fuel injection, but seeing is believing).

On the plus side, for $10,000 and a fistful of Exxon stock, you can ride around in real style and quality, and look rich for cheap...if you don't fill 'er up too often.

fintail

kyfdx - if that diesel S class has been cared for, maintenance might not be so bad. If its an 87, it'd be a 300SDL, which was a pretty fine car, all in all. Major servicings will set you back more than in a Cavalier or something, but the car itself is surprisingly economical, as well as being solid as anything ever built, and IMO the design is timeless. If the car has all history and is in good shape, it might be worth looking at.

About the 107 SLs...I have heard the early EFI 450SLs are monstrously hard to maintain, and I know the 380SL from the early 80s was underpowered. If I wanted a 107, an early 350/450SL (72-73) or a 560SL would be the only way I would go. The DOT bumpers on later cars are horrid. Locally, a Hyundai dealer of all places got an 88 560SL, estate car, 70K miles, in beautiful diamond blue with grey leather, just like my 126. Wanted 15 grand for it, and it was gone within the week.

andre1969

was a really classy, expensive looking car. He overpaid though, big-time. I think he paid like $15,600 for it. One day he had me drive it, because his wife had thought it was making a funny noise. First thing I noticed was that the odometer was 6 digits, something I thought was rare for a '70's car. It read something like 182,000. I asked him if that was kilometers, and he said nope, miles!

One thing I'll definitely say for it though. Before this car he had an '82 Corvette Pace Car that had around 70,000 miles on it. Despite being a closed car (well, okay, it had a targa roof, IIRC) and having about 1/3 the miles, that 'Vette was a rattletrap, whereas the Benz felt as solid as could be.

I think he ended up selling the 450 for about $7,000, but got out just in time, because the tranny crapped out on the next owner! Any idea on what a rebuilt tranny for one of those suckers is? Or is that when you try to figure out how to mate up the TorqueFlite? ;-)

andys120

This was a Gen II 'Bus from the '70s (one-piece windshield with the Westpfalia Camper pop-top painted in a typical 70s shade of neonish green.

fintail

I bet that tranny, rebuilt, could set you back 4 grand, from a charitable specialist. Probably a lot cheaper to get one from a parts car. Those cars bring 10K now if they are really immaculate...and the prices can fall sharply if not so nice. I've seen them at 4-5 grand. With MB, you get what you pay for...always get the best you can. Otherwise, you'll spend a dollar to save a penny, and be in misery.

andre1969

sounds like my friend really got burned then, spending $15.6K on this thing! It even had a bit of rust coming out on the rear quarter panel, which is just one sign that it wasn't the most pristine example out there!

fintail

If it was rusty, he really got burned, and was pretty lucky to get 7K out of it. The one that that dealer had here for the same 15K was pristine.

Mr_Shiftright

Dealer sold that 560SL too cheap. They bring good money. Here in California a pristine 560SL with 70K miles is worth $20-22K. Most buyers here are pretty savvy and they know the 560 is the one to own. It is really vastly improved over the 450 and you can tell the minute you drive it.

I'm still kicking around buying that red Porsche 928. It's a lotta car for $4,500. They call them the "German Corvette" and until the C5 I would have considered that an insult.

I keep saying NO but damn I just can't find a thing wrong with the car. It obviously had the best of everything and the pile of maintenance records is impressive.
The 1980 model is less labor intensive than the newer ones but not so buggy like the early ones.

Biggest problem is parts prices. New radiator for instance is a mere $1,300. On the plus side I do have the best 928 mechanic on the West coast in my back pocket here in Marin, so that's a plus.

It's scary, but would men have gone to the moon had they succumbed to fear? Would what's his face have married Lisa Minelli?

jrosasmc

I had the opportunity to read a classic by Brock Yates called "The Decline of the American Automobile Industry," written in 1983. In it he blasts a lot of cars, namely the Vega, Pinto and the GM J-body subcompacts. He also bashes Renaults, Rolls-Royces, Fiats and a lot of other bad nameplates from the time period.

By the way, have you ever met Mr. Yates?

andre1969

to see an update of that book, with the intervening 20+ years of history that unfolded since then. Way back in 1983 GM had 65% of the domestic market and the three top selling nameplates (Chevy, Olds, and Buick all outsold Ford that year!), and it was questionable whether Ford or Chrysler would make a comeback. People thought the Japanese nameplates were taking over the market back then, but that was nothing compared with today!

Since then, we've seen Chrysler rise, fall, rise again, only to get bought out and then get beaten back, only to just now start to see a bit of a resurgence again. We've seen Ford come literally from the edge of doom to zoom past Chevrolet in sales in the late 80's, never to look back. And we've seen GM do nothing but lose market share, year after year, and keep talking about how "our next new car is going to be better!" And all though that time, we've seen Honda and Toyota go nowhere but up in sales and loyalty.

wimsey1

I am always amazed at how "current" they look on the road. Except for a few details it could be mid-90's styling rather than mid-70's. Has anything else from that era aged as gracefully?
DOn't say the 911, the '70's bumpers were nasty (but weren't everybodies?).

andre1969

just on my way out to lunch, right out in front of the building, there's an '87 560 SEL with a for sale sign on it. Don't know the mileage, but it says "Needs work" and $3500. Body looks rust-free and the dark blue-over gray paint is still shiny, but has a lot of scratch marks on it. No rips or tears on the leather seats inside, but the carpet and center console were pretty dirty. And in back, the carpeting on the package shelf was faded and worn, and the plastic surround on one of the rear speakers (or was it a seatbelt anchor?) was cracked.

I always thought these were classy, expensive-looking cars. To me, this style of car always symbolized what a Benz sedan SHOULD be. Makes the newer ones look awkward and disproportionate.

So what's the going rate for one of these things, in good condition?

Mr_Shiftright

RE: Yates -- this might not be the place to talk too much about this (a bit off topic) but there are some very good things about Brock and some very annoying qualities as well. His rants about the "liberal" media are fatally deluded and illogical, but he knows his cars!

I think he and I might still agree that the American car companies have a "culture" problem that almost insures their repeated failures, no matter how "hot" a product they might come up with now and then. Sooner or later, their inner maladies will rise up and erode any progress, because their problem is systemic...and that even includes the work force at large, not just management.

RE: 928s -- I always cringed at the back end of the 928, but as you say, now with other big butts like the C5 and especially the 350Z, the 928 is back in fashion. Also with V-8 power--another resurgent element in the late 1990s! It's no longer a supercar, with a mere 0-60 in 6 seconds+ and a piddling top speed of maybe 160 mph (C6 does 186mph out of the box, allegedly). I especially like the way the 928 guzzles gas, as I am a proponent of using up fossil fuel as quickly as possible in order to stimulate new power sources ASAP. I'd be lucky to get 15 mpg average, as I would always have my "boot in the Boschware" as we say.