I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andys120

A lot more than a '53 Chevy with a Russian tractor motor, a Buick windshield and a Lada gas tank. Part of the fascination is how they've kept those things more or less running for over 40 years with no spare parts coming in.

lemko

...you will see a 1952 Chevrolet with Pontiac fenders and a Ford grille with 1956 Imperial taillights bolted to the decklid and painted some ungodly color with housepaint and a brush. You've got to hand it to the Cubans. They sure know how to innovate. I'm sure those 1950s and older US cars held up better than the newer Russian clunkers.

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Mr_Shiftright

Some Russian cars are pretty good I'm told. I hear the Lada 4X4 is very popular and well-respected in Canada. Russians are clever, some of their military machinery was definitely better than our own. What they seem to lack is aesthetics in automobiles, I think.

fintail

The Russians made some fine pseudo-Packards too

Today I saw an oddball...a great big huge Brady-bunch-ified c.1970 "fuselage" Chrysler Town and Country wagon, "wood" siding and all. And it was in really decent shape, shiny blue with slightly faded "wood".

Mr_Shiftright

I wonder what it would be like to have to restore that pseudo-wood?

fintail

I bet you could use contact paper, if you never drove it in the rain LOL

andys120

Aside from the Kalishnikov Assault Rifle (AK-47), I'm unaware of any Russian military hardware that was superior to it's western equivalent.

I recall a Russian defector taking a MiG-25 to Japan in the 1980's which was completely gone over by USAF techs who were astonished at it's crudeness. The there was the postwar Tupolev bomber which duplicated down to the rivets and stenciling a US B-29 interned in WWII.

I suppose you could make a case for their large rocket boosters, which could lift bigger payloads than ours.

ghulet

...I think it's fairly easy to get NOS 'wood paneling' for most '60s-70s wagons. I've also seen lots of cases where the wood and associated trim are just removed altogether, which at best has mixed results.

Mr_Shiftright

MIG-15 was much better than American jets of the time--took us a while to catch up. So says Chuck Yaeger who flew them all, even the MIG-15. Also Russian tanks were better than the Shermans in WWII, and the AK-47 is of course legendary. Yes, and the boosters, you're right. Crudeness is sometimes a good thing in war, not so good a thing in cars!

andre1969

pretty much what they used on those woodgrain wagons in the 70's and 80's, anyway? My grandparents' 1982 Malibu Classic Estate wagon was midnite blue with a ploodgrain accent. It wrapped around the edges of the doors and fenders, but when you opened the door, you could see the edge of it. Looked about like the stuff that you'd cover kitchen cabinet shelves with.

jlawrence01

LADAs are well respected??? In Canada??? Not in any of the Canadian Guides that I have ever read.

Dig up some of Phil Edmundston's writings (used car guides) and you'll probbaly find them rates alongside Kias.

The only Eastern Bloc car that I ever heard anything positive about was the Czechoslovakian-made Skodas. And based on the ones I saw in Windsor, ON, I have to admit that they were kind of cool.

fintail

The only Lada with a big following is the Niva/Cossack, a stone age military-esque little SUV. The cars can be pretty dreary, although the older Fiat based ones have interest because of their Fiat styling.

Skodas are cool, old ones can be very unusual, and new ones are retrimmed VWs with lower prices and much less problems, according to British mags.

lancerfixer

I think it wasn't so much a case of the Russian tanks being superior as the Shermans being so spectacularly bad.

Like Andy, I'm struggling to think of any other piece of Soviet military hardware that was clearly superior to its western counterpart (the AK-47 vs. M-16 debate is an apples-to-oranges comparison, though the AK certainly has the edge in durability and, apparently, ease of manufacture.) Aside from the rougly equal (better in some areas, worse in others than the Sabre...read Yeager's autobiography) MiG-15, there's simply no comparison between Soviet bloc equipment and its western counterparts (especially in the area of aerospace...ever see the Soviet version of the B-1B, the Tu-160? It's made of freakin' steel. Most of their aerospace designs looked like they made photocopies of US aircraft and made their own out of whatever was lying around.)
I remember their Alfa-class subs could dive deeper and go faster than the US 688 (Los Angeles) class, but they were so easily detected that the advantage was rendered moot.

The Soviets always held a numerical advantage to the western powers, but NATO hardware was always built with this in mind (witness the F-14, which was designed to track and shoot down multiple targets at once.) As far as technological superiority and refinement, there was simply no comparison.

BTW, if you can find a copy (I think it's out of print) try to read "MiG Pilot," which is an excellent account of Viktor Belenko's defection to the west in his MiG-25.

lancerfixer

On the way into Panera's...a very nice Cobra (I'm assuming it was a replica) at the stoplight outside the store. On the way out, a "project" VW squareback...it was in primer, but the engine had obviously been modded. It had also been lowered and had Panasport wheels fitted...IOW, a money pit. As long as the owner is happy...

andre1969

on my monthly walk over to the credit union to pay on my home equity line, I saw a beat up '72 Dart Custom 4-door sedan. It was a pale blue with a shredded black vinyl top. Rust on the lower front fenders and the typical rear quarters, and missing one of the front bumper guards.

Just a beater from days gone by, but an increasingly rare sight. I remember once upon a time, it seemed like Darts were the most common Mopars still spotted on the streets, even years after they were discontinued.

I think '72 was the last Dart that I really liked...I like the aggressive, wedge-shaped front-end with the thinner bumpers, much more than the pointier, beaky-looking front-end with the bulkier bumpers.

jlawrence01

I liked the Skodas that had the engine in the rear. The one that I saw in Dearborn a few years back was well detailed and really sharp.

I understand that if you took a turn quicly, four front tires would leave the road. I don't know if that is reality or urban legend but ...

lemko

The ZIS was actually a 1941 Packard. Packard sold its dies to the USSR in a deal with the Roosevelt Administration. The Chaika and ZIL III are copies of 1956 Packards with some changes in the details. I swear I once saw a picture of a Russian car that was a copy of a FWD '80s Chrysler New Yorker, with suicide rear doors!

michaellno

... I spotted an early 60's Lincoln Continental with the suicide doors. White, pretty good condition. Was being driven by a 20-something with a ponytail.

Tres cool.

Ah, the VW Squareback. My folks owned one when I was a kid. I think it was either a '67 or a '68. Beige, with a standard transmission. We took it on a 3 week summer vacation from CA to NY and back in the summer of 1971. I was 7, my little sister had just turned 4. I remember only a few things about that trip:

--> The parents had folded the back seat down for more cargo space, and left just a little rectangle of area for us two kids to be in. Seat belts? Ha! Although my mom says my sister spent most of the trip on her lap, giving me a bit more room

--> In Illinois, we stopped to see a Navy buddy of my dad. Mom decided to purchase an old milk can to bring home -- as if we didn't have enough room to begin with!

--> The folks got lost in Youngstown, Ohio. I slept through that ordeal.

--> On I-80 in Wyoming, an 18-wheeler blew a tire as we were passing it. Narrowly missed us, so I was told.

--> My sister almost drowned in the hotel swimmming pool in Las Vegas.

Good times! All, let us remember, in a 48HP (?) station wagon.

Turns out my wife's folks also owned a beige Squareback as well. Small world, one supposes.

andys120

"Is exzect copy of 1937 Nash"

-from the 1963(?) Billy Wilder comedy One, Two, Three, one of Cagney's last and a really funny movie.

Mr_Shiftright

Americans are very arrogant about their technology, that's true, but building the right tool for the job is really what war is all about, and business too.

Russians were always faking out the Americans militarily and in space because we thought we knew everything. Surprise, surprise. Japanese did the same thing to us in cars and electronics and I think the Indians are going to do it to us in software of the future. Seems like America is always being rudely awakened for some reason. WEll at least we DO wake up, that's a good thing.

But I digress---yes, the NIVA--that's the little mutt I was thinking of---thanks for reminding me. By "respect" I wasn't thinking "market value" so much as "bang for the buck".

You see that "respect but no value" quite a bit in older cars. Dodge Darts (run forever), Porsche 914 (might mop you up in autocross), old Volvos, etc.

jrosasmc

Okay, how about old Mazdas from the early '80s? (i.e. 626, pickups, 1st-gen RX-7) I always thought that they were quite respected but didn't have a lot of value as used cars. Heck, I just saw an '85 626 sedan recently that an old lady was selling...had 90k original miles on it, and she only wanted $500! It was in great condition, I might add.

andys120

in the September Road and Track. They're very underrated cars IMO, that kept the idea of affordable cars with good performance alive.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, 944 is a good example. It is a ferocious-handling car, really world class, but it suffered mightily at the hands of its rather deplorable look-alike, the 924. THAT was a big mistake, marketing those two cars at the same time.

I'm not sure the RX-7 ever got respect, or even has it today. I mean, I respect them but that's just me. I often end up trying to apologize for the car. You still hear a lot of bad mouthing of those old rotary engines. The 626? I don't know, it's simply not even on my radar screen, and I never hear anyone talk about them.

Alfa Romeo is another car that gets lots of respect but many of their newer models are worthless today...well, not worthless, but hard to sell and certainly not bringing top dollar. You put a Blue Book retail price on a late 70s-90s Alfa and you are going to have to sweep the cobwebs off it. You can buy CLEAN Alfa 164 automatics for $1,800 out here where I live. Ridiculous!

kyfdx

The convertible they came out with in '88-'90 was a nice piece of work.. but, the lack of torque coupled with the weight just killed acceleration. Sports car handling, but no guts.
You can find decent examples for around $6K now.

regards,
kyfdx

turboshadow

Well, I gotta toss my .02 into the ring.

The reason 944s, Mazdas and Alfa are so cheap IMHO is because they cost so dang much to fix any little thing. I've heard horror stories from owners of these thing (944s inparticular).

A friend of mune bought two RX7 converts; he got an 88 and traded in in on an 89 which he still has. Parts for the thing are unbelievably priced. He does all his own work soo that's excluding labor.

The USSR built some fine aircraft. The reason they were so crude was for maintenance reasons. They had to perform in very harsh extremes and were maintained by a (compared to US maintenance guys) woefully undertrained crew.

The MiG-25 used a lot of stainless steel where we would have used titanium. So what? Titanium is much more expensive and much harder to machine. The -25 was a point and shoot interceptor designed to do only one thing: kil B-70s. When you take the mission into effect, you can see that it was a good rugged design that met the goals: godawful thrust, godawful speed, godawful frepower, and an unbelievable powerful (yes, but crude) radar.

Turboshadow

lancerfixer

...Indeed, the B-70 program was killed at least partly because of the USAF's overestimation of the MiG-25's capabilities. (I think you'd be surpised, Shifty, at the military's LACK of overconfidence in their equipment. I'd say overestimation of the other side's capabilities led to some systems that were frankly light years beyond what was necessary at the time. This is why F-14s and F-15s are still flying almost four decades after their original design, and the B-52, when it finally retires, will have been in service nearly eighty years.)

 The B-1 program began as a result of the killing of the B-70 (instead of high and fast, bomb 'em low and fast.) The Soviets spent both years and billions on trying to counter the B-1 threat...only to have the B-2 right behind it.

On Topic: Saw a Volvo P1800, Alfa Romeo Milano, and some kind of very old school hot rod over lunch today. I've seen the Volvo before running around, but a well-preserved Milano is something of a rarity, especially in Iowa.

jrosasmc

When you say the parts for that RX-7 are unbelievably priced, that means they're cheap to get, I assume?

lancerfixer

My 15 year old nephew just bought an '84 RX-7. Based on his experience, I'd say turboshadow meant the opposite.

turboshadow

mean the opposite. Plus, they had a pretty big price boost within the past year, IIRC.

Turboshadow

jrosasmc

I certainly hope your nephew has good luck with the RX-7. I had a few friends who bought a few of those first-gen cars and sadly because of their experiences they will never go back to Mazda. (Even though the brand is probably one of the most reliable makes right now)

lancerfixer

Well, it's a twenty-year old rotary-powered car, so he knows he bought a project. It's still a year before he even gets his license, so he's got plenty of time to work on it. I think he and his stepdad (my brother in law) are planning on geting a crate rotary motor, fixing the wiring that had been completely trashed by the previous owner's repair attempts and get it painted. I think this is more an exercise in gaining mechanical knowledge than an actual daily driver.

andys120

just told me yesterday he dumped his RX-7 'vert because it would cost more to fix than it was worth. This guy was a Rotorhead of long-standing.

Today's sighting was a '68 or '69 Camaro Z/28, yellow w black stripes and black vinyl roof that looked reasonably intact but not perfect.
It's for sale on a small used car lot that seems to get some special interest cars.

michaellno

I saw that license plate on an RX-7 once.

My sister owned an '85 RX-7 GS. She bought it in, like '87 or '88 (she was 19 or 20 at the time) and kept it for 10 years. She absolutely loved that car and took exceptional care of it. In fact, she added the rear wing onto it, which made it look even better, IMO.

I was able to drive it a few times and all I can say is "wow"! Amazing that it only had 100HP. Took it into the hills where we lived in SoCal and it was just a blast -- bouncing off the 7 grand rev-limiter was so easy, and the handling - remember, the engine, small as it was, was placed behind the front axle - was not to be believed.

She had the car stolen when she lived in San Diego. Didn't know it was gone until the Sheriff's dept called her in the middle of the night. They had stopped the car for a traffic violation and 2 of the 3 (yes, 3) thieves ran off, leaving a young female cowering in the back hatch area. I think she ended up with some community service.

Sadly, she was forced to sell it after getting married and pregnant with her first child. She sold it to a firefighter for $2200, IIRC, and she cried when he drove off in it.

Now she's driving a black Yukon Denali with 20" wheels -- and 3 kids.

<sigh> I woulda bought the car off of her if I wasn't going through a divorce and a move to Colorado when she sold it.

andys120

to make up for a hp deficit. My Fiat Spider's twincam 1600 would make power and torque right up to and beyond redline (torque peaked at 7200!)which made it's 100 horses as much fun as twice that many in other cars.

tarik

...I agree with your opinion on the Porsche 944's low sales - the bad 924 memories...

Even though the 968 is a completely different car compared to the 944, it has something. To this day, I admire the convertible's roofline, but only with the top up! Porsches seem to all look silly with the rag down because it always kinda piles up like on early Beetles.

Actually, I'd consider a good 968 Coupe for its engine alone, the monster-torque 3l I-4, waddaya hear about its going prices?

Mr_Shiftright

RX-7: The rotary engine is, unfortunately, not something you are likely to rebuild in the garage. It has to go to a specialist.

Alfas don't really cost a lot to fix, that is a common misconception. A modern car just out of warranty would be much worse. Alfas are cheap to buy because supply exceeds demand. Most people know nothing about them, and don't care to learn. Ditto the RX-7. Not that many people care about them, and the supply is still pretty good. I don't think "respect" drives the market, I think *desire* does.

jrosasmc

And I've heard that the TT rotaries on the Gen 3 RX-7s are a pain to repair.

fintail

I've read the ZIL/ZIS 110, although being an exact copy of a 41 Packard design wise, isn't actually a copy when it comes to exact dimensions. I think one was compared to a Packard, and panels were not interchangeable. Maybe Russian body panel skills were low at the time.

It's a nice Packard



The ZIS 111 was also a nice Packard



The GAZ ZIM was a decent pseudo 48-49 Caddy



I dunno about a Russian FWD NYer, but this ZIL 117 has a Mopar influence, IMO

andys120

fintail

Can't say I've ever seen one in the flesh

Today I saw an oddball...a Studebaker Lark 2 door wagon. It was a nice light yellow, and was obviously restored. I imagine those are very rare. A couple blocks away, I also spotted a neglected but not beyond redemption Falcon 2 door wagon.

kyfdx

Tell me what you know about mid-'70s to early '80s 280 coupes... There is just something about that body style that does it for me. I saw a 230 coupe the other day.. Is that more like early '70s? Would I shoot myself later, if I picked one of these up for around $4K-$5K?

regards,
kyfdx

fintail

A 230 would be from the early 70s, yes. That was the entry level coupe, carburettor and all. If you like that style, the boxier W114, seek out a 280CE, 6cyl and FI is a lot more fun. The car should be pretty immaculate at 4-5K, that's nearing top of the world for those. But a very sturdy and reliable car if maintained, so if you got a good one, you'd probably not regret it.

More or less the same pricing holds true for the W123 coupes that replaced it.

For reference, this is a W114:



And this is a W123

andys120

with a grille full of chrome teeth and big fins.

My word those things were wide, and tall.

And a 69-70-ish Chevy stepside Pickup in black in daily driver shape. I've seen a lot of 'em this summer.

Also a Jeep CJ5 stripped of all bodywork, including fenders, except the hood and grille for use as a farm snowplow and runabout.

kyfdx

Thanks....

What is the first year for the W123? I assume the W123 came in both gas and diesel versions, with the W114 gas only? Thanks for the pictures.

regards,
kyfdx

andys120

W114s with diesels. I'd guess they outnumbered
gassers worldwide. Anyone have the numbers?

jdfrmky

A couple of weeks ago on southbound I-75 I saw a mini-van(?),smaller than a WINDSTAR with the model name spelled GALAXY>I thought this was another Korean wonder of some sort with a different spelling of GALAXIE to avoid conflict with FORD.This wonder was badged FORD with a TDI badge in the lower right hand corner of the tailgate.The front clip looked like it came straight from a FOCUS.The real wonder this vehicle was a right hooker!FLORIDA plate.Whut whazz it?Mail delivery special of some sort?

fintail

I think the first W123 coupe was sold in NA in 1978. They made them through 1985, but I think from 1981 or so on they were all diesel for NA. You'll see 280CE and 300CD, with maybe a 230 as a grey market car. I don't think the W114 coupe was sold as a diesel, just sedans. I don't have numbers, but I bet you are right, as most I see are 240D or 300D.

As an aside, when I was in junior high the home ec teacher had a gorgeous well kept late 300CD, in black with bundt wheels. I thought it was a very pretty car...she replaced it with a 190E 2.6 when I was in grade 8. I think the coupe was more interesting, although the 190 seemed pretty high tech at the time.

Ford Galaxy is a Euro Ford van, and I bet it is sold in other foreign markets too. The RHD points to it being UK sourced or maybe some Caribbean place, given the Florida plate(?).

lancerfixer

It was a UK market minivan.

http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/galaxy/-/-

Your guess is as good as mine what it was doing here.

jdfrmky

Well I'll be...........!
Thanks for the info!