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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)
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FINALLY FOUND THE ANSWER!!!
To my question:
How much HP did a Nemi 426 REALLY have?
Well, Hemmings finally got one on a dyno, and it is......ta da....
315 "real" ponies.
so much for the "gross" hp hype.
-----
Saw a '56 Chevy BA sedan with a great paint job, sunshine yellow over medium gold, looked like new with good chrome and lots of gloss in the paint.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Then again, the "Street" Hemi was the weakest of the 426 Hemis. There were several race versions that were much more powerful.
As for Exner's Forward Look, I think in their prime, they were beautiful cars. The first generation, the '55-56 models, were very modern, clean, and well-proportioned, and showed the world that GM wasn't the only company that could turn out beautiful cars. But they were nothing compared to what would be launched for 1957.
Maybe it's hard today, looking back at these cars through modern eyes, to see just how revolutionary they were at the time. After all, in 1957, all cars had wraparound winshields, lots of curves, and tailfins. So yes, they were similar in only the broadest of terms.
However, Chrysler did something that nobody else did, when it came to tailfins. They actually integrated them into the design of the car, instead of just tacking them on. Advertising of the period said that the fins added stability at highway speeds, and while it was mostly just advertising hype, there WAS a grain of truth to it. Only problem was you had to get up to around 75-80 mph to see it! Probably not a good idea on the roads we had back then, not to mention the tires! But then Alfox mentioned burying the needle on a '59 LeSabre, so maybe they weren't TOO bad? ;-)
I'd have to disagree about the 4-different committees thing, Shifty. If anything, I'd say that few cars have ever looked so well-integrated as some of Exner's Forward Look cars. If anything, it was some of the minor styling elements that threw off otherwise beautiful bodies, such as the goofy wanna-be quad headlamps on the '57 Dodge and Plymouth, the '57 DeSoto Firesweep's chrome "brow" over the headlights and grille from the big cars that just didn't fit right on Dodge fenders, the toilet seat spare indentations on some of the trunks, the overdone front-end of the '59 Dodge, the garish eggcrate grille on the '59 Plymouth, etc.
Some of the cars, like the 126" wb '57-58 DeSotos and Chryslers, were just about perfect. Every curve and piece of trim seemed to fall perfectly into place, and the proportioning was just about perfect. The only down-side from that long, graceful style, depending on how you look it it, was length. The cheapest "Senior" Chrysler product in 1957 was the DeSoto Firedome. It was about 218" long overall and rode a wheelbase of 126", and started at $2957. The longest Buicks, the Roadmasters and Supers, were much more expensive, and rode a slightly longer 127.5" wb, but were actually shorter, at around 215". The Buicks that actually competed with the Firedome, the Special and Century, were more like 122" in wb and around 207" long, overall. The Olds 88 models were also about the same size. Some Cadillac models in 1957 were actually shorter than the Firedome!
In 1957, that was a good thing, as that was really the last year of unbridled faith in the longer-lower-wider idiom. The recession in 1958 ensured that small cars were not a passing fad, and were here to stay. While cars ballooned back up in the later 60's and 70's, it was clear that big cars were no longer the only game in town.
Oh yeah, Shifty, that Corvair WOULD be good looking, except for the nasty paint job, but also those bulked-up C-pillars look horrible! In stock form, the car has just a wisp of a C-pillar, and looks just timeless.
Well we may be closer in opinion about the "forward look" cars that might first appear. My main beef was, as I stated, in not STOPPING at a certain point. Exner was like the baker who could not stop decorating the cake. He really REALLY needed restraint and nobody apparently had the guts to do it---until they booted him that is.
Also, the size of the cars was part of the epidemic of the times. They were big but for no good reason. Lots of wasted space, waster chrome, wasted gas and wasted talent. Even if you don't like new cars as much as old ones, you have to admit they are much more intelligently designed. As for beauty, well that's a gift of genius and isn't all that common in any design endeavor.
You see this type of "regression" in many models of car as they evolve. Rarely do they "get better" as the years roll on.
Can you think of any model type that actually got better looking but was still the same basic car--that is, no complete body change?
(I'm thinking, I'm thinking....)
Umm...maybe the 1962 Studebaker Hawk--same car as before but different hood and grille is all.
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Chrysler design department back at the fort is apparently freaking out about this, and would like Chrysler to forbid it, but the dealers are reluctantly taking the big profits involved in doing this for customers.
It IS amazing how this modification persists in the modern age.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Corvettes come to mind on models that usually look better in the first couple of years after a re-design, then go downhill from there...
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Yenko Stinger-What all did Yenko do to the 'Vair (it's one of my favorites of the '60's also). Engine suspension etc., and how did iit work.
1. 69-73 Fury (althought it went bad after that)
2. 79-93 Mustang
3. 63-67 Vette
ummm...you're right. Not a lot.
300C w/vinyl roof: Ugh.
Yenko Stinger--anyone remember the other Yenko Stinger, anyone, anyone???
It was a turbocharged Vega.
Turboshadow
And a mid-70s Plymouth Fury with the fuselage styling, a white 2 dr HT with a trunk big enough
to garage a Miata. Fairly clean daily-driver looking.
And a good looking pale-yellow '66 Mustang vert
with wire wheel covers on wws and a V8 flash on the fender. Not perfect but nice.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
And yeah, okay, I do think the idea of a vinyl roof on a 300 is pretty sick, but hey, it could be worse. Just picture one on an Intrepid, Concorde, LeSabre, post-91 Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, or any other car in that rough size/price class, and suddenly a vinyl roofed 300 doesn't seem so hideous!
As for cars that looked better a few years later, well I can think of a few. The first one that pops to my mind is the bathtub Caprice. The '91-92 are downright nasty, but they improved it a bit for '93-94, when they opened up the rear wheel opening. And in '95, when they gave the beltline that little up-kick in the rear quarter window, the car was downright attractive!
I think the '58 Plymouth and Dodge, and DeSoto Firesweep were better looking cars than the '57 models. The true quad headlights helped a lot, but the Dodge's grille was much cleaner, and the Plymouth got a lower grille/stone shield that matched the upper, instead of looking like the slats on a Jeep grille. And the quad headlights really made the Firesweep look a lot better.
I think the '58 Ford is a good looking car too, with the exception of the taillights that look like a sidways colon. (a ":", not that part of your anatomy!) If they'd put the '57 taillights on the '58, I think the end result would have been a very attractive car. But then the main reason I don't like the '57 Ford, is that it has a bug-eyed look with jutting headlights, and that's something I can't stand. The '58 face is much smoother, and actually bears a faint '58-58 DeSoto resemblance, so that might be part of the reason I like it!
I think GM's full-sized cars, which went through a subtle skin job for '80, and the personal luxury coupes, which went through a similar treatment for '81, emerged better looking in some respects than the cars they replaced.
As for the Stude Hawk, I actually like the old style the best. My favorite is the first few years, when I think they called it the President Speedster or something like that? I think it came out for '53? Overall though, I think they were all good-looking cars, even the final Hawk models, which were styled to look like Benz models, to give them a family resemblance, as back then Benzes were mainly sold through Studebaker dealers. The only Hawk I would classify as muy vulgarosa would the Packard Hawk, and then mainly just because of that ghastly front-end!
As for Exner, I can think of a few of his later efforts that weren't too bad. I think the '60 Dodges, both the smaller Dart and the 122" wb Matador and Polara, were good looking cars, although they were dated compared to a '60 Ford, Chevy, or Pontiac. The '60 DeSoto and Chrysler were very good looking cars, and still had a modern look when compared to the likes of Buick, Olds, and Mercury. DeSoto and Chrysler took a retrograde step for '61 though, although a de-finned '62 Chrysler or '62 Dodge Custom 880 (a Newport with a '61 Dodge grille) isn't bad looking. Just dated though, compared to the likes of a Buick, Olds, or Merc.
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It was a Canadian model, which I thought was kind of interesting, being here in the Maryland suburbs. It had US plates on it too, but I forget which state.
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This four-door sedan was in very good shape with nice chrome and dark brown paint that wasn't fresh but still good.
Given the apparent expense of keeping one of these old dogs up it's nice to see one. While I agree with Shifty that these are nowhere near as special as the Bentley's and Rolls that had bespoke coachwork they still posses a visual elegance that has vanished from our contemporary world.
I felt the same way about the '46 or '47 Caddy 4- door I passed on the highway Sunday, tres elegance (or something like that).
All those vinyl roofs and fake landau Irons are an vain attempt to recapture that visual elegance. I agree, Andre that the 300 could carry a vinyl roof because of the strong break separating roof from lower body but that doesn't mean it should.<:^)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
FWIW, I never see any Canadian GMs other than the occasional 60's vintage Parisienne, Acadian, or Beaumont at a car show, and I haven't seen a Canadian Ford marque "in the flesh" (Monarch, Meteor) since the 1980's, although I've seen them on My Classic Car a few times.
The first was a Rootes Alpine 1725 sports car. Rust is eating away the rocker panels, and the front fenders contain a fair amount of old bondo. The top is permanently down, and the interior is all there, but in a shambles. It looks as though people are picking it over for parts.
At the other end of the car lot was a white Renault Dauphine in surprisingly good condition. It has some minor dings and dents, but the trim is all there and body doesn't show any major rust damage. The only Pennsylvania state inspection sticker on the windshield reads, "Valid until January 31, 1978."
In the back was a first-generation Honda Prelude that had been converted to a convertible. Most first-generation Preludes have rusted away around here.
And finally, there was one for Andre...a 1957 Dodge Coronet Lancer coupe, in outrageous turquoise and black two-tone paint. The trim is all there, but the headliner is falling apart, and someone started to paint the roof and then apparently quit before finishing.
'83 Mazda B2000 truck. Just about all of these have rusted away in the Northeast but the one I saw was in mint condition.
'80 Mercedes 240D sedan. Why anyone would want to drive one of these on today's fast-paced highways is beyond me.
'78 Porsche 928. I saw this clapped-out example at a dealership specializing in "great classic luxury cars." They wanted $3000 for it; what a shame.
'85 BMW 528e. Another tired, clapped-out car at the same aforementioned dealership. Asking price was $2500, and this one had 210k miles on it. My advice: Run away.
My Dad had been driving a '66 Pontiac Executive 4-door hardtop, dark blue, up until around 1985, when he got busted for being naughty with alcohol. It was rust-free and almost immaculate, from what I've heard. I never saw it though.
Come to think of it, I did see something down there that was kind of an oddball. It was a Pontiac Parisienne Safari wagon, but it had the composite headlight treatment of the '87-90 Caprice. As far as I know, the Safari had normal quad rectangular headlights up through 1989.
Nice to hear though, that Florida still has plenty of old cars! I'm sure there are plenty of cars with aftermarket vinyl and carriage roofs down there too! I remember seeing plenty of '80-85 Sevilles with that treatment. Guess the retirees still go for that kind of stuff.
The scenario is like this: Some older cars (mostly foreign) just depreciate so low that they fall into hands of peole who can't possibly afford to fix them properly. So they are further degraded into a state of hopelessness.
This is why most old Porsche 356s and 911s and Jaguar XKEs are pristine and why most old Porsche 924s, 928s and 914s and Jaguar XJ6s are beaters. And why all old Fiats are beaters with rare exception.
In most cases, if you see an old 928 or XJ6 or Fiat 124 that is nice, it is usually a low miles "survivor" that was kept by one family---not a restored car.
regards,
kyfdx
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These are nice cars if well-maintained, and a lot more sophisticated and comfortable than British cars of the same vintage.
regards,
kyfdx
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Most mechanical issues can be dealt with on a Fiat fairly inexpensively--what you need to look for is RUST and NEGLECT.
If you spot BONDO (with a magnet), duct tape or non-factory wiring all over the place, a greasy filthy engine, a corroded battery, an oil-soaked chassis underneath, you already have your answer in the first 5 minutes.
Ever see a 124 Sport Coupe?
I bet you see a lot more cool stuff like that in California.. Here in the "salted road" belt, they are few and far between.
regards,
kyfdx
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For me, seeing a 300SL on a trailer with "tire mittens" on it and mirrors under the chassis and a "do not touch" sign, makes me wanna throw up, if you will excuse the phrase.
"Oh my god! The acid from your fingertips has corroded my door handles" LOL!
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Sporty. There is one of these in my town, but I don't know if it is real
"Collector's dream car" - or nightmare, I guess they are close. I think these were based on an early 80s Cougar, but I swear that's a Tempo gauge cluster
An oddball nowadays, and it looks nice...you could do a lot worse for $8500
Most of these have been rodded/ruined. I like the "modern" styling
Now here's a real oddball
For the AMC fans
I bet even Shifty hasn't seen one of these freaks
I like this "first" style Capri, it's like a 2/3 scale 1960 Starliner. It's ruined, though
On any other car, the colors wouldn't work. I don't know if they do on this. The name "Weather Eye" is cool though
OOh it's the "Plus" model!
What are people thinking....
Odd Packard limo in OK shape
Sad Packard from same seller. I like this bodystyle, it is very dignified. Shame about the condition
Supercharged Packardbaker
Nice looking fintail coming into the range of decent money, but the seller feigning ignorance and the poor attention to detail (the hubcaps!) make me leery
RE: Packardbaker -- rather rare, but who cares? I can't see anyone coming out ahead on this car, but you WILL be the only one like this at the annual Studebaker meet, so maybe that's the point? Still I'm surprised any Studebaker freak would bid over $4,000---they are known to be the cheapskates of the collector car hobby. Best thing would be to break up the car and put that SC engine in a Hawk. You'd have a car worth 4X the money and 2X the fun at least.
RE: Borgward Goliath Wagon -- now Borgwards were good cars--that's a car worth having if you can get it around $3,000 or so.
1965 Fintail--- car looks pretty good to me, although the rapid change of ownership makes you wonder how "fettled" the car really is. But the guy's feedback is good and the price is market correct. Only downside is automatic--you'll need a neck brace to prevent injury during shifting.
Too bad the auction is ending so quickly. This car is near me, I would have checked it out for you fintail.
RE: Healey Silverstone -- well, this one LOOKS real enough but I'd be very careful. They made some excellent "replicas" using actual Silverstone pieces and bits in the UK in the 80s. They are pretty rare cars, only 104 made and probably half of those gone by now. I would never bid on a car like this without expert intervention and inspection.
RE: Hupmobile-- neat car but I had to laugh at the part about "great investment" as if mid 30s cars were really hot---NOT!
RE: 70s Rolls -- this would make a great demo derby car or a good movie prop ("Oh, no, Jim, we're going over the cliff----AIEEEE!) Maybe a dragster if you could stuff enough power in there to compensate for the weight of the thing.
I think that the seller has overstated the condition of the vehicle ...
"In my opinion, the car condition classifies as showroom, just need to vaccum the trunk from some dust, and steam clean the engine.
The car has been painted. I don't know if any body work was ever done. No rust to the best of what I can see. The car is Gas (not diesel). It is in storage indoors, not outside.
I am only offering it via this auction on ebay. I can't tell anyone the reserve price."
Sounds like he'd be a pain to deal with ...
I like that Hupmobile styling, prettier than a plain old Ford or Chevy. But the paint is a bad color and the interior fabric is painfully wrong. Needs a lot of work yet. I like this type of Hupmobile, the 1934 "aero" model with the 3 piece windshield, more than the later ones. It really looks like a European car. It seems they toned it down later like they did with the Airflow
Something about that fintail just strikes me as wrong. Maybe, as pointed out, the seller's odd verbage doesn't help. Or the small details that are wrong on a supposedly "showroom" car. The car has been on ebay a few times before too, I am pretty certain.
I was looking at that Mercury again, as I think it is a decent car, and checked out some of the other pieces of metal offered by the same dealer/seller. They have some interesting material, among others:
Better than average squareback. I like the notchback the most, but I think this style, which also included the fastback, was nicely designed, very clean 60s Euro modernism, like a MB W114.
A lovely and extremely rare Nash
A decent looking battleship/Buick
And a nice Dart for Andre
The 30s were a real transition time in automotive design...this is when the trunks started melting into the back of the car, the headlights became part of the fenders and running boards started to atrophy or disappear. This was due partly to body-forming technology, which automakers got from railroad car manufacturers. It allowed them to try new shapes and to create huge stampings.
Then right after WWII, they continued with this experimentation, merging the car's lines even more, into "slab-sided" cars in the early 50s. Goodbye pontoons, running boards, pod headlights, humpback trunks and high noses.
So between the years 1936-1954 (more or less) I'm not interested very much, except as a academic exercise in watching the designers trying to find a comfortable place to live, whcih they eventually did in 1955-56 I think. These are the first truly "modern cars" in America, kind of a logical end of 20 years of evolution. The fish has crawled onto land you might say....or not.
Most early fifties cars are more than a bit dowdy, too, they pretty much all look alike to me. The later fifties styling, while garish more often than not, is at least more interesting and distinctive.
I do think that 1955 was the year design became modern. The big 3 all had real modern designs by then, and the mechanicals were finally starting to advance as well.
Back in 1993, I saw a '73 Dart in that same light blue color for sale at a used car lot. I think they wanted $1995 for it. This one had a 318/automatic, and was in just about perfect condition. I saw it and stopped by and drove it around the block. I was in my '82 Cutlass Supreme at the time. They told me that they could do an even trade for me, if I was interested. Looking back, I should have, as the Cutlass was destined to destroy its engine about 8 months later! But, at the time, I had just had the tranny in the Cutlass rebuilt, and thought I'd be keeping that car forever...
A few foreign cars from the 30s, though, are remarkably modern in feel, like Alfas. You can drive a 6C or 8C pretty much like a modern car...but of course these are usually light two seaters with plenty of power. Start adding weight and you have the same basic problems that come with 30s suspensions, no p/s and scary brakes.