I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

Mr_Shiftright

The one I drove was priced at $22,000, which I thought, given what it needed, was a tad high. Body and paint and chrome were outstanding, generally very nice interior with a few blemishes--but the HVAC was all messed up, some power windows didn't work, and there were a fair number of leaks underneath. Ran great, though. You could almost hear the gasoline flowing through the 6" pipes under the floorboards

roadburner

The 1966 and 1967 Rivieras are still my favorites.

ab348

I like both the 1st and 2nd generation Rivieras, but the styling of the '66/'67 is just so good they would be my choice as well.

Mr_Shiftright

I think they worked out some bugs by then, too. Early Rivs were chronic overheaters and had some build issues that often allowed water intrusion.

kyfdx

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/54841/general/x/help-with-late-30s-early-40s-car-identification/p1?new=1

uplanderguy

A good friend has a very nice '63 and I tip my hat to him, in that he wants it to be fully-functioning in all respects and although not a mechanic has determined in retirement to fix what he can and if he can't, take it someplace, which he's done. It's red with the red leather interior (Custom Interior option).

He had been looking for a '62-64 Impala SS but was bemoaning the prices. He looked at a '64 Olds Starfire which I kinda liked, and I asked, "Do you like those first Rivieras?". He started looking and was smitten, particularly that he could get a nicer one for less than an Impala SS.

I'm not a fan of the fake scoops on the side, inboard headlights, or plain taillights, but the '65 corrected all those things I think. I also like later Rivs, including boattails which I didn't like at the time. I even like the '74-76 ones, which you never see anymore--the last big GM cars that could be had with buckets and console in the '70's.

Really, the only Rivs I wouldn't consider up through the '70's, are the '77 and '78. They're a nice LeSabre Limited coupe, but not a Riv.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

Really, the only Rivs I wouldn't consider up through the '70's, are the '77 and '78. They're a nice LeSabre Limited coupe, but not a Riv.

That was really Buick coming full circle. In the '50s when they introduced pillarless hardtops they were all called "model-name"-Riviera. In '77/'78 the name went back on what was just a nicely-trimmed regular model range car.

stickguy

speaking of Mavericks, I saw one out on the road today driving. Bronze/brown color. Later bumper car, 2 door. Looked very clean, so much have been restored (paint too nice for original IMO). Of all odd things to spend time and money keeping alive! It was going the other way so I could not analyze, but did not appear to be hot rodded.

tjc78

There is a guy who lives near us on another forum that has a 75 Maverick with a full EFI Mustang engine swap.  His is baby blue and pretty beat up.  Hell of a sleeper.  

stickguy

that sounds like fun. Of course, needs some serious brake and suspension mods to go with it. And better seats. They are a must!

ab348

uplanderguy said:

Really, the only Rivs I wouldn't consider up through the '70's, are the '77 and '78. They're a nice LeSabre Limited coupe, but not a Riv.

I just stumbled upon these pics of the proposed '77 Riviera that was turned down by GM, leading them to build the '77/'78 on the B-body platform. This was proposed to be done on the bigger E-body platform that the Toronado and Eldorado carried on with for '77 and which the Riv used through '76. The '76 was huge, but handsome.

explorerx4

The front looks like a '79 and up Grand Marquis.

texases

Very “Ford” looking front, side looks like a two door 1st gen Seville. 

ab348

explorerx4 said:

The front looks like a '79 and up Grand Marquis.

Just think, if this had been given the go-ahead, a '79-up Grand Marquis front end would have looked like a '77 Riviera.

andre1969

It's interesting that Buick considered putting that much effort into a redesign proposal for the Riviera in '77, considering how little effort Cadillac and Oldsmobile put into their versions. Even the windshield/cowl area looks different. Also, the distance between the back of the door and the rear axle looks different, so that implies to me this was a pretty substantial revision, and not just a hasty facelift.

It's pretty attractive looking, in my opinion. I actually never really cared that much for the '77-78 Riviera, as it actually came out. The proportioning just seemed off. It seems like they combined a '77 Century/Regal and a '77 LeSabre coupe, but the end result didn't look as attractive as either of those two.

I also never was that crazy about the '74-76 Rivieras, either. I don't hate them, but they just don't stir any kind of emotion in me, either.

Oh, and AB348, thanks for those pics you posted earlier. Great trip down memory lane. And you know I especially liked that '77 LeMans!

ab348

Thanks Andre. I was pleasantly surprised to find the LeMans pics. I had over 400 slides to scan and the car pics didn’t turn up until the last 50 or so. It was my favourite car out of all those for sure.

I like the proposed ‘77 Riv too except for the front end. I would want them to do something different there, less blocky. But the rest of it is killer.

fintail

Over the weekend saw a relatively immaculate ~85 Corolla 5 door, with vintage plates. Also an early 928 on the road, and a first gen A8 running and driving.

texases

A nice XJS convertible, Euro headlights, moving under its own power. 

tjc78

texases said:

A nice XJS convertible, Euro headlights, moving under its own power. 

Probably a small block Chevy conversion. Lol 

Michaell

fintail said:

Over the weekend saw a relatively immaculate ~85 Corolla 5 door, with vintage plates. Also an early 928 on the road, and a first gen A8 running and driving.

When I graduated from college, my dad wanted me to get one of those Corollas.

I declined, and picked up an '85 Accord hatch instead.

stickguy

I liked that vintage Toyota. SR5 versions.

fintail

It was one of these, always thought the rear looked a little odd:

kyfdx

That's the worst looking one..

I like the sedans with RWD and a stick-shift. Came close to buying one of them.

EDIT: not sedans... notchback coupe

kyfdx

andre1969

It looks like Olds was considering re-doing the Toronado for '77 as well, along the lines of that Riviera. However, I don't think the result here is quite as successful...



I don't think the Toronado-esque creases work as well with this more chiseled body style. And something about the front-end makes me think of the 6000 SUX from Robocop! The rear of this Toro looks kind of like a '77 Grand Prix.

I also found this mockup of an Eldorado, on Pinterest...


It said it was a proposal for the '79 Eldorado, but it looks to me like it shares some of that same passenger cabin structure with the '77 Toro and Riviera proposals. And, IMO, this one's not too attractive looking, either.

Maybe that's why the proposed '77 Riviera was scrapped? Simply because, the stylists couldn't get their act together with the Eldorado and Riviera versions, so they dumped the whole thing?

ab348

When I got my MR2 in 1985, it came down to it or one of those Corolla GT-S coupes with the same twin cam engine. They also came in a fastback with a rear hatch, but I liked the coupe better. Looking back, I'm not sure how robust those GT-S Corollas were. They seemed to disappear pretty quickly. Nice cars though.

stickguy

I like the RWD square generation before that Toyota.

Mr_Shiftright

tjc78 said:

texases said:

A nice XJS convertible, Euro headlights, moving under its own power. 

Probably a small block Chevy conversion. Lol 


Conversion done after the fire, you mean?

kyfdx

stickguy said:

I like the RWD square generation before that Toyota.

Me too... I picked the wrong year in my search

xwesx

The profile lines of that Riviera are uncharacteristically elegant for the 1970s. No wonder it got axed!

Mr_Shiftright

It was too big for the times. The word was 'downsizing" and Japan was just starting to kick everyone's butt.

fintail

I can't unsee the 6000 SUX in that concept now. I think the eventual downsized production models were more elegant than the concepts - the 79 Eldo especially is a handsome design IMO. GM did downsizing pretty well.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

It was too big for the times. The word was 'downsizing" and Japan was just starting to kick everyone's butt.

I think what happened was something related to what Andre mentioned. The changes in those proposals were more than just a facelift and would have required additional tooling investment. The downsized '79s were already being planned, so GM brass likely told the divisions to suck it up and carry on with that they had with just some small amount of facelift investment. Olds and Cadillac carried on with the existing E-body, while Buick for some reason decided to use the new B-body coupe as its Riviera for those 2 years.

Mr_Shiftright

In retrospect, I think GM made the right decision there.

andre1969

There might still have been some market for these monsters. The economy started to turn around a bit in '75, and in '76, once word got out that GM was going to downsize, sales of some big cars, like the Electra, suddenly started taking off. It was the government, EPA, and CAFE regulations, moreso than the market itself, that was against these cars. Buyers only tended to abandon big cars in times of economic crisis, and fuel shortages. Once the fuel starts flowing cheap and easy again, they'd come flocking back.

Then, there was the Mark V of '77-79. It was a hot seller, despite its monstrous size. Even in '79, I think it might have still outsold the more rationally-sized Eldorado. Part of the Mark V's success, however, might have been reduced competition. In 1976, the T-bird was based on the Mark, and although cheaper, no doubt cannibalized some sales. But for '77 it became more of a Monte Carlo competitor. Similarly, the Riviera took itself out of the equation for '77, when it downsized to the B-body. Again, while it was priced lower than a Mark, it was still luxurious enough to be in that class. But, when it downsized, it alienated some buyers. So, for '77-78 that just left the Toronado and Eldorado to fight the Mark V, on size. And, for '79, the Mark V was the only battlecruiser personal luxury coupe left, once GM took its E-bodies to the trim new platform.

Truly big cars, in general, had a bit of a resurgence in '77. While the downsized GM models were a smash hit, there were still enough buyers that wanted a huge monster, and with GM out of the picture, cars like the Gran Fury, Royal Monaco, Newport/New Yorker, and Grand Marquis, and the Lincolns saw some increase. I can't remember if the LTD did, though. With Mopar though, it wasn't enough, and the Gran Fury/Royal Monaco were dropped for '78.

But, I do agree, that if GM had put some serious money into these big personal luxury coupes for '77, it would have been a waste. It would have been interesting though, to see how that Riviera would have sold.

Mr_Shiftright

I think there's a market today for monster size, pillowly, super comfy, ultra-quiet, pinky-steering, leisurely accelerating sedans. GM, take note!

thebean

Are you serious or just being facetious? It makes me a bit sad that so much of the money these days is spent on overpriced pickups or *UV’s.

Mr_Shiftright

No, I'm DEAD serious. Notice, no emoticons? The only caveat is that they would have to deliver bearable MPG, not like the old days. But all this "German-insired" handling, braking, rock-hard seats, bunker-style glass area, and butched-up cladding----just toss it for Big Glass, Big Seats, stump-pulling torque, lazy revs, whisper-quiet operation, a 3-body trunk and enough width to seat 3 across.

texases

One more thing - an electronics section that is easily controlled, without 135 buttons, nor with oddball mice/touchpads/3D scroll gizmos that require too much attention.

sda

Calling Andre!  I wish I could have gotten a better picture.  Other than what appears  to be a sagging rear window, the car looked straight and had nice paint.

explorerx4

It makes me a bit sad that higher education costs so much. Much more than a high end pickup truck.
BTW, that Dart convertible has mine beat by probably 16 years, probably more.

berri

I think there's a market today for monster size, pillowly, super comfy, ultra-quiet, pinky-steering, leisurely accelerating sedans. GM, take note!

Shifty, I think that's just what Lincoln has decided to target.

tjc78

No one really makes what Shifty describes. The 2011 Town Car was probably the last of it along with the previous generation Avalon. My 2012 LaCrosse was not at all floaty.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, has to be floaty...it has to PREVENT you from even wanting to take a curve at high speed. However it will eat up straight highway miles like no other...

fintail

Out in the rain this evening, saw a 65 Galaxie 2 door HT, and a Saab 97-x (Saablazer).

Lexus LS might be the closest to that floaty barge some might want.

andre1969

I think what I'd like to see is if they could take everything that was right, about your typical full-sized 1976 car, but then go through and fix everything that's wrong with it. Use something like a 1976 Caprice as a starting point, for instance. As for comfort, my only real issues with it are that the steering wheel is a bit close, and the seats don't really have much bolstering. It's fairly comfortable, in a recliner sort of way, but just won't keep you planted in any sort of spirited driving.

So, redesign the steering system, to a more modern setup. Maybe move the whole cowl a bit forward. Give the seats some side bolstering, and a few more adjustments like modern cars have. Also, apply some of the space efficiency methods they gave to the downsized '77's...a more squared-off rear deck to give more trunk space. I've seen the '76 B-body listed at something pathetic, like 18.8 cubic feet of trunk space, while I think the downsized '77s were around 20.3. Also, perhaps, square off the sides, so you don't have as much of a fuselaged effect. Raise the roof just a bit.

Modern powertrains should easily take care of the fuel economy aspect. A RWD Ram Hemi is rated as high as 17/23, while a Charger with the 5.7 is rated 16/25. So, some re-imagined 70's-class mastodon with a modern powerplant should be similar.

Also, keep it full-frame, for ruggedness. That would give it good hauling/towing potential. Although, I've heard that the full-sized Unitized Mopars from back in the day gave up very little, if any, towing capacity to their BOF GM and Ford counterparts, so maybe the full-frame isn't *that* critical? And, of course, give it the typical safety, handling, etc upgrades of a modern car.

I don't think something like that would really be a huge seller, because you'd end up with something the size of a Suburban, or longer even, but a Suburban would still beat it for passenger and cargo capacity. But, there might be a market for one or two players in a field like this.

The problem with what passes off today as a "full sized" car, doesn't really give you much more than a midsize, or even some compacts, so buyers have been ditching them for crossovers.

ab348

I think the high-water mark of big American cars was, ironically, the "downsized" B/C-body GM cars from 1977-up. The C-bodies gave a little more space inside but it wasn't worth it to me considering how roomy the B-body was to start with, so let's use that. None of those cars ever had an engine exceeding 200HP so pretty much any engine used currently would work, even a turbo 4, especially with a modern 8-speed automatic. A 35/65 split bench front seat could have a little bit of bolstering on the driver's side if you want, but I can tell you from experience that if you made it with a loose-pillow cushion design upholstered in velour fabric, you aren't going anywhere - it is like velcro.

Handling would be no issue. The F41 police suspension package could corner like it was on rails. The steering was quick and had decent feel. Brakes were good, and with today's wheels and tires allowing bigger rotors it would be even better. Honestly, the more you consider this, the more you have to wonder why they don't resurrect the design with a new styling job somewhere in between the square-rigger original styling and the awful Orca styling of its last few years, and build it on a pickup assembly line somewhere.

tjc78

Didn't Ford really do all with the 03+ Panther?

Rack and Pinion steering, Watt's link rear. Still fairly floaty but good enough handling. They did offer a "handling and performance package" which was similar to the Police spec while not quite as harsh.

Imagine if you took a late run Panther and threw in the 2.7 Ecoboost or 3.5 Ecoboost and amped up the safety/infotainment systems. It would be the ultimate highway car and I'd bet it would pull 30MPG at 70MPH easily.

My 04 would do 23 - 24 at 75-80 with the AC on. Mine had granny gears (2.73), so that certainly helped

Only real complaint with the Panther is for it's size interior volume (especially rear legroom) wasn't fantastic. I'd bet with a small revision they could change the wheelbase a touch, and gain a little space from the huge trunk.

omarman

I like that idea of bringing back an updated "downsized" B/C-body GM cars from 1977-up.

Oh yes and don't bring "awful Orca styling" to the party. A new and improved 1978 Buick Park Avenue would make a good starting point for me.

stickguy

The cops would like it too.

Or, you could just do this to it.

https://engineswapdepot.com/?p=25164