I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

ab348

I didn't care for that first-gen Lumina much. I remember having one as a rental and it drove OK though not remarkable in any way. What struck me was that the dash had a separate top pad piece that was wider than the lower part which overlapped the bottom of the A-pillars somewhat. According to something I read, it was designed that way to mask assembly variations/sloppiness.

uplanderguy

Another clean original from the "All Original Cars" site on FB--I know Chevys enough, anyway, to tell the real thing there. All makes, including some imports, there. Since we were talking about late-sixties Impala instrument panels not too long ago, here's a '68. Not bad; not as nice as '67 but not as bad as '69.

Note this car has no radio. Of course, there's a comment below it "It has radio delete! AM was standard and you had to pay extra to delete it and for them to fill the antenna hole!". 100% incorrect. Whomever came up with the term "radio delete" should be in no-old-car-quarantine! I see it all the time.

andre1969

I went through a phase where I wanted a '95-99 Riviera. In fact, on the day I ended up buying my '00 Intrepid, I had plans to go out to a dealership to look at a '95. It was black, had a sunroof, and supercharged. But, that morning my uncle asked me to take him to the dealer to get his truck out of servicing, and while we were there he said "let's go over and look at the new cars" and by the end of the day I brought that Intrepid home.

In retrospect, it's probably best I didn't get that Riviera, mainly because of it being black. I don't have the patience to keep a black car looking good, and I swear, they usually look dirty again 15 minutes after you wash them! Every once in awhile, I've seen a Riviera pop up at one of the swap meets I go to, and get slightly tempted, but then I remind myself that my 2000 Park Ave was essentially the 4-door version of that car, so do I really want a repeat of that? Heck, the last time I saw one for sale, it was even the same color as my Park Ave!

And, it's not that I hated my Park Ave. I guess it was more of a been there, done that, and I want to try something different.

I actually liked the style of the Lumina, especially the coupe. But I didn't like the interior. It just seemed too plasticky, and unattractive. And, it didn't have enough legroom for me to get comfortable. The second generation, the '95-99, seemed like it was better built, with nicer interior materials. But, it was still too cramped for my tastes.

That always bothered me, how GM seemed to start getting "out of phase" when it came to updating their cars in the late 80's, and much of the 90's. For instance, the Regal/Cutlass/Grand Prix were all updated for '88, but then the Monte Carlo was simply dropped. But even there, I remember they ran out the RWD Monte Carlo and Cutlass Supreme "Classic" for about 1/4 of the 1988 model year. But, coupes in general weren't such a hot commodity any more, and they should have been focusing on 4-door sedans. They'd get around to offering the 4-door Regal/Cutlass Supreme/Grand Prix for 1990, but somehow they seemed half-hearted. And, the Lumina coupe/sedan came out. With Chevy and Pontiac, at least, they did the right thing and replaced the 6000 and Celebrity pretty quickly with these new sedans. But, Buick and Old held on to the Century and Ciera, through 1996.

Then, the Lumina was updated for 1995, with the coupe being renamed Monte Carlo. But Buick and Pontiac didn't migrate to the new platform until 1997, and the Olds Intrigue didn't come out until 1998. But then comes 2000, and the Impala replaces the Lumina, while the Monte Carlo gets updated. And, I think even toward the end, GM staggered the other two, with the Grand Prix updating for '04 and the LaCrosse for '05?

I'd imagine that staggering the introductions like this confused some buyers, and probably annoyed dealers, as well. I wonder if GM would have been better off if they had simply redesigned the entire midsized lineup, coupes and sedans, for 1988? Then perhaps done updates to them all in 1995? I'm sure that market forces would have still killed off Oldsmobile and Pontiac eventually, but at least it would have been a lot less messy along the way.

GM's history of indecision could probably be traced back to 1982. By all rights, once the Celebrity et al came out, the Malibu and its siblings should have been killed on the spot. Just imagine if GM had tried selling the old style '77 Malibu alongside the '78? Or the '76 Caprice, alongside the '77? GM used to be good at anticipating the market, or even creating the market. Or if it was a niche someone else found first, even when GM was playing copycat they seemed to do it in a more memorable way.

But, they made some bad decisions during that second fuel crisis and phase 2 of their downsizing efforts, and the market shifted back to larger cars surprisingly fast. But then, instead of forging ahead with their new designs and leaving the past behind, they held onto the older designs as well. And, they sort of let those older designs grow stale and outdated, rather than make meaningful improvements to them.

uplanderguy

Excellent points. It used to be across all the divisions, when the midsizes were new, they were all new. Same with the full-size cars. And the Suburban was new the same year the pickups were. That all got very blurry in the '80's and '90's.

Of course, the one exception I can think of is the Fleetwood Seventy-Five, which looked like a '64 with the '60 windshield and vent windows, through the '65 model year!

andre1969

I think GM was able to get away with the Fleetwood Seventy-Five, because it was pretty much the only game in town. If you wanted something like that from Imperial or Lincoln, you had to have a coach builder do it. GM also did a pretty good job keeping the 75 up to date each year, as they at least changed the sheetmetal to match the rest of the cars. With the exception of '65, that is. With that being an all-new body, it probably would have been very cost-prohibitive to apply the '65 sheetmetal style to the '59-64 body structure.

I wonder, what the end result would have been if GM had simply applied some space efficiency techniques to the '71-76 B/C bodies, rather than downsize them? I've often theorized that despite claims of being "all new", that the '77 Caprice/Impala is really just a taller, more squared-off body dropped down on the '73-77 Colonade frame. Any legroom gains were probably accomplished by moving the cowl a bit further forward, over the engine, resulting in a larger transmission hump, and pushing the back seat further between the wheel wells. And perhaps raising the back seat up a bit, as well.

My guess though, is that if they put a boxier, taller body on the '71-76 full-sized frame, you might end up with a car that's almost too big inside? If there is such a thing? For instance, Uplander, you mentioned about how the window sill of your '93 Caprice was too far away to comfortably rest your arm. So, moving it even further out would just be useless. And, as much as I complain about legroom in a lot of cars, usually just another inch or two would probably do it for me. Anything beyond that would be useless, for my needs.

uplanderguy

I have a couple times over the years, heard that the '77 full-size GM frames and suspensions were the same as the '73-77 midsizes, but is that a for-sure, or is it just because both are 116 wheelbase? I never figured that out.

andre1969

Years ago I was in the local junkyard, which had a car crusher. I remember them putting in a downsized B-body wagon, and a Colonade wagon in the crusher. They flattened one, and then put the other on top of it and then flattened the other. As they crunched them down, the lower edges of the body sort of flared upwards, exposing the frame rails more. They also didn't have wheels on them. Seeing them both, one on top of the other like that, the frames looked identical to me. At least eyeballing it, the frame rails looked like they were the same height, curved in the same places, suspension components connected at the same spots, and they had the same little holes in the sides.

That's what first made me think that they used the same frame. I guess one tell tale sign would be to measure them, and see if the frame rails under the passenger compartment are as far apart on both cars. If I still had my grandmother's '85 LeSabre by the time I got my '76 LeMans, I would have done that, but we got rid of her car in 2002, and I got the LeMans in 2005.

I guess one clue could also be if the wheel track is the same on both cars, but that's something that can be easily changed. My '57 DeSoto has the rear-end out of a '70-74 E-body. My mechanic did it that way so that he could get rid of those annoying brake drums that you need a wheel puller to get off, and also to rig up a more normal parking brake. But, that doesn't mean a '57 DeSoto is the same platform as a '74 Barracuda

imidazol97

I tried finding something about the relationship between the 73-77 A-bodies and the 77-?? B-bodies. Does anyone have any article that suggests that the Cutlass frame was the basis for the Olds 88 frames? I'd love to see an underside picture of both.

Logic says that having the Cutlass base would make it easy to modify that to handle the downsized B cars.

uplanderguy

To me, the midsize cars look wider than the new full-size '77's, but I realize that's bodies, not necessarily frames.

ab348

I know that a lot of suspension parts interchange between the '77-up B/C bodies and the '73/'77 A-bodies, but I don't thing everything does, and I think the frames are different too.

andre1969

I think one thing that might make the Colonades look wider is that the bodies are more "fuselaged". Not to the extreme that the '69-73 Mopar full-sized cars were, but moreso, I think, than the '77 GM B/C bodies. It's noticeable on the inside as well, as the door panels taper in a bit toward the bottom, rather than being perfectly vertical. As a result, being more tucked at the bottom, but flaring out toward the middle, might have made the colonades a bit fatter looking than they really were.

Doing a quick google search, it looks like a '73-77 Chevelle was 77.3" wide, while the '77 Impala was 76.0" So, there was a bit of a difference, but it wasn't huge.

I do remember reading somewhere that the frame of the '77 Impala/Caprice was only something like 50 pounds lighter than the '76, but now that I want to find that article, I can't! However, Wikipedia mentions that the '77 Impala frame was "a shortened version of the one introduced in 1970 and would be utilized until 1996 when the B-body production line was shut down."

I've actually seen the "50 pounds lighter" reference a few times. It might have originated with Car & Driver or Motortrend? I just found the old Motortrend car of the year article, and they mention 200 pounds "from the body alone", 120 from the "bumper system" and 100 from the suspension. Wikipedia is the first time I've seen mention of the '77 using a shorter version of the '71-76 frame.

sda

A very clean black Mitsubishi Diamante LS.

uplanderguy

Since we're not getting out as much, how about this--what car company slogans of the past did you particularly like--in TV or magazine ads? I was reminded of one about the downsized '77 big Chevys--"Now THAT'S more like it!". That was on the bottom of virtually every ad I ever remember seeing about those cars. I also like '64 Studebaker's "Different....By Design".

Also always liked "Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?".

stickguy

Piston engines go boing boing boing. But a Mazda goes Hmmmmmm.

and "whoop de doo for my Subaru!"

andre1969

"There is a Special Feel in an Oldsmobile". Of course, when I had my '82 Cutlass Supreme, we found a way to make that one dirty

kyfdx

Honda, we make it simple

Do I have that right?

ab348

In the early '70s, Oldsmobile used the slogan "Oldsmobile... always a step ahead".

uplanderguy

Beautiful Ninety-Eight. See what I mean about GM promoting the cars without the optional side moldings? I like the look, but I can honestly say I don't think I've ever seen one without them.

uplanderguy

Spotted while making a post office drop and a CVS pick-up: A chocolate brown Continental Mark V, enormous, vents on the front fenders, paint delaminating on hood and roof, and blackwall tires with wheelcovers. Just when you think you'e seen all the old cars in your smallish city, another like this one will pop up.

fintail

I always snarked "yeah, it's your grandfather's". Ad at lower right was prescient anyway.

fintail

This was amazingly catchy, too bad most of the cars weren't so hot:

https://youtu.be/S3Ha_sFNsqc

Also embedded in my mind from childhood:

https://youtu.be/g7dKEcQ3p60

uplanderguy

At a used car lot near here last summer, there was an ice-blue/silver below side moldings '91 or '92 Coupe deVille, whitewalls, wheels, no vinyl top (big square quarter window)--I liked it; I always admired a coupe with a real back seat and reasonable exterior size. I liked the instrument panel of those last deVilles also.

Those '88 Cutlass Supremes--I always liked the looks of those, and they could be had with a bench, center armrest and column shift. I thought GM did a good job distinguishing them from the Regal and Grand Prix--maybe lessons learned after the Cimarron/Cavalier/2000 and Celebrity/6000/Ciera/Century.

This was my favorite "Now That's More Like It" ad, with Jerry Ohrbach before he became famous as a detective. Again, promoting the car without the optional body side moldings, which 90% of the cars had I bet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMWKHDw9Uw

uplanderguy

"Have you driven a Ford lately?" is effective IMHO, and it was everywhere then.

I'm older than a number of you guys, but I sure miss the "See the USA..." Chevy ads, which they ran for over a decade. Even the magazine ads into the seventies often showed a clean-cut family in front of an historic U.S. vacation spot. They also did a revised "Building a Better Way to See the USA" ad program in around '72 or '73.

Wish they'd do an updated version, but I doubt that'll happen.

The current smarmy guy, talking about Chevys in J.D. Powers surveys after three years, is about unbearable IMHO. And where do they find those dopey people?

"Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet" was a clinker ad too.

imidazol97

I liked the Dinah Shore "See the USA" ads where she sings the theme song.

Here's a clip from her TV show where she ends up singing that wonderful song.

Am I dating myself? Hmmmmm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boertpylK0M

fintail

Looks like that car was well-optioned otherwise. The side moldings don't add anything in terms of looks.

This theme is the oldest ad campaign I remember, "Just One Look", probably because the people across the street when I was a little kid (maybe 4-5 years old) had a white RX-7 that I thought very highly of:

https://youtu.be/_izwAIMGvm0

uplanderguy

That '53 Chevy in Dinah's ad has rear-door vent windows, which I'm nearly-certain never appeared on the cars. I think they did appear on Oldsmobiles.

There's a five-and-a-half minute color commercial out there, on the '65 Chevrolets, one of my favorite model years of theirs, with the stars of "Bonanza" and "Bewitched". It's long but I always loved seeing it. I don't remember it from the time though, although I do remember Chevy sponsoring both those shows even many years later.

uplanderguy

"Just One Look"--I remember that ad but I was never a fan of Linda Ronstadt, who had a big hit with that song that was originally done by Doris Troy. I always loved Carly Simon and I think I resented that Linda bumped her out of the top female pop/rock position, LOL.

fintail

The "real people" ads are likely Chevy's worst, and maybe the worst for GM as a whole. Sadly, a high up suit at some level is attached to the premise, and they've ran with it. People routinely mock the spots, and I doubt it lures in any younger buyers away from Asian brands. I don't see how it is effective, unless the "ad creatives" are literally doing it for free. Not helping brand cachet.

90s era "Heartbeat of America" wasn't bad, even if the link between patriotism and consumerism can be questionable (but better than "keep America rolling", which was actually probably effective given the behemoth SUV demographic and how GM owned it at the time). "Like a Rock" from the 90s has positive memories for me anyway, maybe out of nostalgia, as it mostly links to a time when I was still a kid.

uplanderguy said:

"Have you driven a Ford lately?" is effective IMHO, and it was everywhere then.

I'm older than a number of you guys, but I sure miss the "See the USA..." Chevy ads, which they ran for over a decade. Even the magazine ads into the seventies often showed a clean-cut family in front of an historic U.S. vacation spot. They also did a revised "Building a Better Way to See the USA" ad program in around '72 or '73.

Wish they'd do an updated version, but I doubt that'll happen.

The current smarmy guy, talking about Chevys in J.D. Powers surveys after three years, is about unbearable IMHO. And where do they find those dopey people?

"Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet" was a clinker ad too.

andre1969

ab348 said:

In the early '70s, Oldsmobile used the slogan "Oldsmobile... always a step ahead".

Nice shot...although that background is giving me a serious "EAT THE COOKIE MOTHER" / "Flowers in the Attic" vibe

ab348

I think I posted that Cadillac Style video a long time ago, and agree it was their best campaign in decades. I particularly enjoy seeing those ‘80s blondes, like the one driving the Allante and what I imagine is a boozed/coked-up one on the roof of the Fleetwood before she got into the back seat and dragged her escort in there with her. Such times, such fun...

imidazol97

uplanderguy said:

That '53 Chevy in Dinah's ad has rear-door vent windows, which I'm nearly-certain never appeared on the cars. I think they did appear on Oldsmobiles.

There's a ten-minute color commercial out there, on the '65 Chevrolets, one of my favorite model years of theirs, with the stars of "Bonanza" and "Bewitched". It's long but I always loved seeing it. I don't remember it from the time though, although I do remember Chevy sponsoring both those shows even many years later.

The brochure shows both the BelAire and the Two Ten with that style rear vent. But I don't find a single image on the search engine with one. Apparently the larger roll down rear window won out.

The brochure shows the One Fifty with a window like what the two upline models ended up using, but with an ornamental piece to fill in the rear corner.

imidazol97

I may march to a different drummer, but the "Real People" ads work for me.

omarman

I always liked the Dr. Olds advertising campaign. The 1969 Olds 442 400 W30 was rated at 360 hp at 5400 RPM and a 3 speed manual was standard. According to the ad both the wide ratio and close ratio 4 speeds were available. And the Turbo 400 or a special W30 Turbo 400 were available.


For 1970 Dr. Olds was assisted by "Elephant Engine Ernie for the big 455 V-8." The 455 W-30 was rated at 370 hp at 5200rpm in other ads. I posted this one because of the "Elephant Engine" reference. I've seen other 1970 Dr. Olds ads which use the "Elephant" tag promoting the 455 engine, but wonder if it was intended to spoof the 426 Hemi reputation for being as big and powerful as an elephant.


Hello 1971! Lower compression and low lead fuel along with some other changes saw the 455 W-30 rated at 350 gross hp at 4700 RPM and 300 hp "SAE net" according to this ad. I've seen it posted elsewhere at 280 hp net for 1971. And compression ratio has been reported as 8.5:1 but not in this ad.


I don't recall any of the Chevy advertising being so quirky with references to the small block "mouse" or big block "rat" engines so who knows where all that began?

stickguy

I love the color on that 1971

fintail

I don't think I've ever seen a 442 in that color.

I am sure Mahk loves the "real people" ads, as they've no doubt made him a small fortune. And on the positive side, they introduced us to his bawdy humor - some of his lines in those spoofs are pretty on point.

"Cadillac Style", I remember in 6th grade a kid who's parents had a 79-85 style Eldo (this was around 1988) would sing that jingle and brag about the Eldo. It was a nice car especially for a small town, but he went overboard. IIRC in high school he had a 260Z with slotted mags (of course).

uplanderguy

I still like that style Eldo, '79-85--it has a hint of the '67-70 IMHO. Totally different than the Mark VII, which I know was seen as more modern but I think less-luxurious even in the small touches--the things I think people mean when they say "jewel-like". Too bad that '82-85 models were saddled with such a lame engine.

ab348

fintail said:

I don't think I've ever seen a 442 in that color.

Olds only offered two blues in '71 on the 4-4-2, either Nordic Blue which is a typical light blue metallic, and Viking Blue, which is a more vibrant mid-blue metallic. I suspect this is the latter, perhaps altered slightly due to printing, fading and scanning. Lots of them got repainted Viking blue during restorations because it has become popular in more recent times.

andre1969

The '79-85 Eldorado was a nice looking car. I also like the Toronado and Riviera. My favorite of the 3 is actually the Toronado. I think it's because that was the lowest-production of the three, and I tend to root for the underdog, I guess. But, there's also something about the weirdness of the low grille I like, and the clean lines, overall.

I do like the Mark VII as well, though. Ford did a good job at a modern take on the personal luxury coupe, I think. It's too bad GM didn't try updating the '79-85 platform, rather than going with that shrunken '86 disaster. I know Cadillac did offer some kind of touring version of the Eldorado...maybe just "Eldorado Touring Coupe" or something like that? I want to say it had a stiffer suspension, better wheels and tires and such. However, it was still stuck with the lame and tame 4100 V8. I guess Buick should get some credit, for offering the turbocharged V6 in the Riviera. It would've been kinda cool if Olds could have put the 4-4-2 version of the 307 in the Toronado, although maybe that would've been considered too crude and "boy racer" for that type of car?

uplanderguy

I had thought that the 307 used in the 4-4-2 wasn't really a H.O. version. But I didn't study it much.

sda

ab348 said:

fintail said:

I don't think I've ever seen a 442 in that color.

Olds only offered two blues in '71 on the 4-4-2, either Nordic Blue which is a typical light blue metallic, and Viking Blue, which is a more vibrant mid-blue metallic. I suspect this is the latter, perhaps altered slightly due to printing, fading and scanning. Lots of them got repainted Viking blue during restorations because it has become popular in more recent times.

Mom’s 72 Cutlass Supreme was Nordic Blue with black vinyl top. The blue is more medium in tone, very rich looking and had nice depth.

andre1969

The 307 used in the Hurst, and later 4-4-2 models had 180 hp from 1983-86, and was choked a bit to 170 hp for 1987. It was always slower than the Monte SS, which got 180 hp from the 305. I've heard that one reason was the Cutlass used a more rugged rear-end than the Monte...12 bolt versus 10 bolt, or however GM classifies their rear ends? There were probably other issues as well, such as maybe the 307's power curve being less broad and more peaky, or whatever?

One thing I noticed that was interesting...the regular 140 hp version of the 307 had 255 ft-lb of torque. The Chevy 305, with 165 hp, had 245. But from specs I've seen online, both the Monte SS 305 and the HO 307 only had 225 ft-lb. I wonder if that's a misprint?

I never understood the physics behind it but I've heard that sometimes an engine with a more restrictive carburetor will have more torque at the expense of hp. And a hot carb might give you a lot more hp, but really no more torque. But it just seems odd to me that these 5-liter engines would lose that much torque, in the hotter 180 hp setup?

kyfdx

uplanderguy said:

"Just One Look"--I remember that ad but I was never a fan of Linda Ronstadt, who had a big hit with that song that was originally done by Doris Troy. I always loved Carly Simon and I think I resented that Linda bumped her out of the top female pop/rock position, LOL.

I was never a fan of Linda Ronstadt

Okay.. this is just wrong..

ab348

sda said:

ab348 said:

fintail said:

I don't think I've ever seen a 442 in that color.

Olds only offered two blues in '71 on the 4-4-2, either Nordic Blue which is a typical light blue metallic, and Viking Blue, which is a more vibrant mid-blue metallic. I suspect this is the latter, perhaps altered slightly due to printing, fading and scanning. Lots of them got repainted Viking blue during restorations because it has become popular in more recent times.

Mom’s 72 Cutlass Supreme was Nordic Blue with black vinyl top. The blue is more medium in tone, very rich looking and had nice depth.

Most examples I see are somewhere btw light and medium depending upon how one defines that. Of course with resprays and variations in the formula there is a big range of tones. This is what I have seen most often as Nordic Blue. Original-paint cars can look quite lifeless with this paint.




Meanwhile, here is one in Viking Blue:

stickguy

Viking looks much better. the 442 trim helps too of course.

uplanderguy

LOL--Linda in my memory: big pipes, southern California, photographed on roller skates and Cub Scout uniform....Carly, New York, sexy/trashy too, but a songwriter/piano and guitar player. No doubt that Linda outsold her though.

imidazol97

I still like the rims on the Viking Blue car.. That was a part of the attraction to a 77 Cutlass when I ordered one.

Does the Viking Blue have metallic chips as part of the color blend that gives its richness?

imidazol97

Maybe I should have posted this in Mystery Cars, but what vehicle is this watch face mimicking?

omarman

Another W machine in 1970 brochure is the Cutlass S W-31 with the 350/325 hp at 5400 RPM. This seemed to be a 1970 version of the Ram Rod 350 from '68 (?) or so. I think the brochure pic features a Rally Red exterior but it doesn't look right to me in this scan. Should be similar to Chevy Hugger Orange.


I found a pic of an original 1970 Olds 442 with unfaded Rally Red under the trunk lid.

roadburner

It wasn't fast at all, but I liked the Rallye 350.

fintail

With 4/4, maybe a German car.

On that note, on a trip to Germany years ago I saw a line of watches patterned after speedometers, and they had a fintail style. These weren't insanely expensive, but I balked at the price and I can be a snob about automatic movements vs quartz. Hard to find now, I should have picked one up, might look for one sometime:

imidazol97 said:

Maybe I should have posted this in Mystery Cars, but what vehicle is this watch face mimicking?