I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

As I grew up with oldies thanks to my parents, I know the Doris Troy version much better ("fintail music", too).

Carly Simon is another one I grew up with thanks to my parents - I can clearly see my parents listening to her while in the T-Bird. I suppose her music kind of suits a car from that era as well.

uplanderguy said:

"Just One Look"--I remember that ad but I was never a fan of Linda Ronstadt, who had a big hit with that song that was originally done by Doris Troy. I always loved Carly Simon and I think I resented that Linda bumped her out of the top female pop/rock position, LOL.

omarman

My 70s memory of Carly Simon and JT was their performance of "Mockingbird" at the '79 MUSE concert in New York. But then this happened:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvfS0lnCYU

ab348

omarman said:

Another W machine in 1970 brochure is the Cutlass S W-31 with the 350/325 hp at 5400 RPM. This seemed to be a 1970 version of the Ram Rod 350 from '68 (?) or so. I think the brochure pic features a Rally Red exterior but it doesn't look right to me in this scan. Should be similar to Chevy Hugger Orange.

Rally Red was a unique Olds color in 1970. It was code 73, PPG 2235. Hugger Orange was code 65, PPG 2084, the same as Popntiac's Carousel Red. Rally Red is slightly lighter/brighter than the red on my '68 but really not orangey.

roadburner

I saw Linda Ronstadt just after she released Mad Love; she had an interesting take on the Alternative scene.

tifighter

My neighbor left his NSU Prinz parked outside. Makes me smile whenever I see it.

fintail

Awesome, love the mudflaps and the YOM plate.

When I was a teen out "hunting" old cars with my dad, we found one of those alongside a barn in SW WA, it was yellow IIRC. I had some interest due to the weirdness, but my dad couldn't be less interested. He was more tolerant of a green Anglia 105E that caught my eye when it turned up at a used car lot in town until he saw what was left of the floors.

tifighter said:

My neighbor left his NSU Prinz parked outside. Makes me smile whenever I see it.

xwesx

tifighter said:

My neighbor left his NSU Prinz parked outside. Makes me smile whenever I see it.

Um... is that Mr. Bean in the window? Kinda creepy!

uplanderguy

"Mockingbird" was my least-favorite radio hit of hers and James Taylor's, by far, but I do like her vocals and the sax on it. I consider her more of an album than a singles artist. I went to see the "No Nukes" movie when I was in greater Cincinnati with work back then, just to see her do a live performance, which she almost never did. That clip of "Mockingbird" is on youtube and she is amazing in it; even Taylor looks surprised.

I saw her live in '95 (Hall and Oates were her warm-up) and '05. I liked the '05 show better; smaller venue. I had tickets to see her in Pittsburgh in 1980 when she did a small tour for her new-wavish "Come Upstairs" album (ironically, the one song not of that style but a country style, "Jesse", was the radio hit from it). She was doing two shows in one night. I had tickets to the second show. She collapsed onstage in the first show and the second show, and rest of the tour, was cancelled. In her bio from a few years ago she talked at length about that night, which interested me.

kyfdx

She has an amazing voice and technical ability. And, not restricted to popular music. Pirates of Penzance on Broadway, singing with orchestras, etc..

There is a recent documentary, with some current commentary from her. Unfortunately, she has some sort of Parkinson's, now. Very sad.

Michaell

kyfdx said:

She has an amazing voice and technical ability. And, not restricted to popular music. Pirates of Penzance on Broadway, singing with orchestras, etc..

There is a recent documentary, with some current commentary from her. Unfortunately, she has some sort of Parkinson's, now. Very sad.

I saw the biography on CNN. Great story, and well told.

ab348

BaT strikes again with an almost minty '91 Ford Crown Victoria:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-ford-ltd-crown-victoria-lx/

Blah colors but low miles.

stickguy

I love these. Could make it work for a spare car. The look on my wife’s face when I brought it home would be priceless!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-dodge-lil-red-express-3/

stickguy

I would also drive one of these. Especially (well, only) if it did come cheap!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-volkswagen-cabriolet-6/

tjc78

WOW on the 91. So much to like about that one. Hard loaded, Instaclear!!, and tow package.

Amazing it still has the original windshield (you can see the yellow stripe).

My 89 Grand Marquis had Instaclear and way back in the mid 90s when I had to replace the windshield they were over $1000 and hard to find. I cheaped out and went with a regular windshield.

Instaclear worked so well. It required a higher amp alternator and the computer raised the RPM during use.

The 91 also has the unpainted turbines and one year only clear lenses.

tjc78

I like those Lil Red Express trucks too. It would definitely be a head turner.

andre1969

I always referred to that generation of Crown Vic as the Ben Matlock Special Edition. Every once in awhile, one of those later box Panthers will show up at the swap meets in Carlisle, PA, and I swear, they're almost always in that color, or something close. They're usually in really nice shape.

Is that dual exhaust stock, I wonder? Something about the way the one muffler hangs lower than the other makes me think it's not, but you never know. I forget what the package was called, but from the factory, Ford offered an option that got you dual exhaust, a quicker axle ratio, traction-loc, and I believe better rims and tires, and it wasn't that expensive. My 1985 Consumer Guide tested a Crown Vic with that package, and they said it was well worth the money. I think in '85 it was only like $227 or something like that.

stickguy

Maybe part of the trailer tow package? Ad said it has trailer wiring I think.

uplanderguy

What was the last model year for those cars in two-door form?

ab348

It has dual catalysts coming off the engine that look original, but the pipes and mufflers from there back look aftermarket. I don't think Crown Vics came with a H-pipe? And the Carfax notes a trip to Midas in 2009 for a muffler replacement, so that might be when that was all done.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

What was the last model year for those cars in two-door form?

1987 was the last year for the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis 2-door. They built 5527 Crown Vics, and 4904 Grand Marquises. Looks like that was also the Caprice's last year, and they only built 3310.

Interestingly, you could get the Crown Vic 2-door in standard or LX trim (there was a strippo S trim level for sedans that was probably the equivalent of the '85 Impala or '86 base Caprice, intended for mainly police/taxi use). The Grand Marquis 2-door was only available in upscale LS trim, whereas the sedans came in GS or LS.

The Caprice coupe was only offered in Caprice Classic trim level for '87. No stripper Caprice, and no upscale Brougham or LS Brougham trim levels. I think the LS was the version that had what I always called the "R-body roof treatment" that made it look a bit like a '79-81 New Yorker, and that wouldn't have really made sense on a coupe.

kyfdx

My mother had Lincoln coupes. '72 and '76. Didn't think a lot about it then, but now, that seems weird that they weren't sedans.

tjc78

That dual exhaust is stock and how they came (my 89 LTC was a trailer tow option) and it looked exactly the same.

The H pipe does look like a new replacement piece, but is the correct part.

fintail

Speaking of Panthers, I have a friend on another forum who is into them, and is customizing/restoring a Crown Vic interceptor. I showed him pics of that 04 Grand Marquis in the estate sale ad I showed here maybe 6 weeks ago. He said I should have bought it.

I like the ubiquitous Ford steering wheel in that 91, on almost everything for awhile.

andre1969

kyfdx said:

My mother had Lincoln coupes. '72 and '76. Didn't think a lot about it then, but now, that seems weird that they weren't sedans.

In '72, I think the coupe was still a true hardtop, so it had that going for it. While the '76 had a B-pillar and stationary rear windows, it still had a more low-slung look to it, and being a 2-door, cleaner in many people's eyes.

I think downsizing and aerodynamics are pretty much what conspired to kill the coupe. With downsizing, many "coupes" were actually 2-door sedans, as they were upright and shared the same roofline as the 4-door counterpart. And then, once they started making them aerodynamic, with the slicker body styles in general, the styling advantage of a coupe seemed lost.

One advantage back then to a coupe, is that in some situations, they're actually easier to get into and out of, because of the larger door openings. Many of those old cars, despite their large dimensions, actually had fairly small doors, and it you're tall you have to dodge the B-pillar a bit when you get in and out. There is the disadvantage in tight parking situations, as the door can get away from you more easily. But, when you think about it, the actual area you have to squeeze through is still the same. For instance, if you're parked two feet from a wall, then you can only open your door to two feet max, regardless of whether it's a 2- or 4-door.

Sedans in those days, even hardtop sedans, still had a stigma about them, as well. Once hardtops and convertibles went away, that's when they became more acceptable, it seems. But even then, it seemed people went more for personal luxury coupes, rather than mainstream midsized or full-sized 2-doors.

kyfdx

Yeah, I remember our group turning up our noses at sedans. I learned to drive on the ‘72.

uplanderguy

I had some sway over my Dad on car purchases, and he had two-door family cars for us in 1973,74, 77, 80, and 84 (I was out of the house for the last one). My friends' parents all had four-doors.

andre1969

My Dad was the type that avoided 4 door cars as much as possible. My Mom didn't really care for them, either. Back in 2003, before Dad ultimately bought the Regal, he briefly thought about a Crown Victoria, because that was the only big RWD V8 domestic left. But, Dad didn't really keep up with automotive history, and the changes in cars and such. He asked if they made them in a coupe. Nope. So that was strike one. Then he asked if you could get a stick shift. Nope. Strike two. So, I think that killed the mystique for him.

Once he realized that large (even large-ish) coupes with stick shifts were pretty rare by that time, and he also got over the sticker shock of just how much cars cost (he hadn't bought a car since the 1980s, and that one was a '66 Executive 4-door hardtop beater), he pretty much resigned himself to realizing he'd end up with something fairly mundane.

When is the last time you could even get a full-sized coupe with a V8 and a stick shift? In the Chevy lineup, I'd imagine it was the 1970 Impala? That year, it looks like the premium of a V8 over a 6-cyl was only around $120-150, so I'd imagine you could still get the stick with a V8? By 1971 though, the V8 premium was something like $350, so I'm guessing the automatic was mandatory with the V8?

uplanderguy

You could get a V8 full-size Chevy with a stick through the first half of the '71 model run. At that point, Turbo-Hydramatic became standard. I have to believe the cars like full-size Pontiacs, and Delta 88's and LeSabres, were the same way.

omarman

Looking at automobile catalog shows the '71 Impala coupe was offered with a 350 V8 and 3-speed manual. Couldn't have been many of those. But by '72 it looks like only the 6cyl came with a manual trans.

edit to add: Found an online ad for a clutch replacement for a
Chevy Impala Base 5.7L V8 NA (1971)

sda

kyfdx said:

My mother had Lincoln coupes. '72 and '76. Didn't think a lot about it then, but now, that seems weird that they weren't sedans.

It was Lincoln’s ‘Coupe de Ville’. Cadillac sold a lot of those.

andre1969

I just looked up the Pontiac Catalina specs on Automobile Catalog. I had forgotten that Pontiac started cheaping out for 1970. That year they made their "350" (it was technically 353.8 CID) V8 standard in 1970, whereas in '69 a 400 was standard. They also started offering a 2-speed automatic as a budget option, whereas in '69 the only automatic was the 3-speed Turbo Hydramatic.

Looks like they tried this cheapout routine again for '71, with the 350 being standard, and the 2-speed automatic being offered. Interestingly, presuming that Automobile Catalog site is accurate, you could get a 3-speed manual with both the 350 and the 400. The 455 was standard THM though. For '72, the 400-2bbl/THM was standard.

I wonder if Pontiac sold very many full-sized cars with the 350, or the 2-speed (or the manual shift, for that matter). While it might have allowed them to advertise a low base price, I'd imagine most of them ended up being equipped with at least the 400.

Seems like kind of a dumb move to me, too. One of the main reasons for getting a Pontiac over a Chevy was the bigger standard V8. But, that was also the era where Pontiac was starting its quest to become all things to all buyers, and perhaps that was when they started to lose their way.

roadburner

kyfdx said:

Yeah, I remember our group turning up our noses at sedans. I learned to drive on the ‘72.

I was no fan of four doors until I discovered the Bavaria.

sda

One of mom’s friends had a new 74 Bavaria, silver, black interior, auto, ac. I had just passed my drivers license and mom’s friend offered to let me drive it. Being a bit uncertain, I declined. I remember riding in it and it having that classic BMW 6 sound, which sounded great.

Michaell

A friend from HS that I used to car pool with normally drove a Datsun 510 (the late 70's version, not the iconic early 70's one).

However, every now and again, she was able to snag her older siblings Bavaria, model year unknown. Even then, you could tell the difference in build quality and driving dynamics.

What I most remember was the unbelievably airy greenhouse - almost like there were no pillars between the windows.

ab348

andre1969 said:

I just looked up the Pontiac Catalina specs on Automobile Catalog. I had forgotten that Pontiac started cheaping out for 1970. That year they made their "350" (it was technically 353.8 CID) V8 standard in 1970, whereas in '69 a 400 was standard. They also started offering a 2-speed automatic as a budget option, whereas in '69 the only automatic was the 3-speed Turbo Hydramatic.

Looks like they tried this cheapout routine again for '71, with the 350 being standard, and the 2-speed automatic being offered. Interestingly, presuming that Automobile Catalog site is accurate, you could get a 3-speed manual with both the 350 and the 400. The 455 was standard THM though. For '72, the 400-2bbl/THM was standard.

I wonder if Pontiac sold very many full-sized cars with the 350, or the 2-speed (or the manual shift, for that matter). While it might have allowed them to advertise a low base price, I'd imagine most of them ended up being equipped with at least the 400.

Seems like kind of a dumb move to me, too. One of the main reasons for getting a Pontiac over a Chevy was the bigger standard V8. But, that was also the era where Pontiac was starting its quest to become all things to all buyers, and perhaps that was when they started to lose their way.

I was always surprised how long GM kept the 2-speed automatic in production. Even after they introduced the THM 350 3-speed in 1969, the 2-speed carried on as the cheaper autobox until it finally went away after the 1973 model year.

andre1969

ab348 said:

I was always surprised how long GM kept the 2-speed automatic in production. Even after they introduced the THM 350 3-speed in 1969, the 2-speed carried on as the cheaper autobox until it finally went away after the 1973 model year.

And, just to complicate things, wasn't the 2-speed that the '70-71 Catalina used something called a "Super Turbine 300" or something like that? I don't think it was the Chevy Powerglide.

omarman

Corvette was still using Powerglides in 1967. Here's one for sale with a stock 427 L68/400 hp with tri power induction. And a Powerglide automatic.

ab348

andre1969 said:

ab348 said:

I was always surprised how long GM kept the 2-speed automatic in production. Even after they introduced the THM 350 3-speed in 1969, the 2-speed carried on as the cheaper autobox until it finally went away after the 1973 model year.

And, just to complicate things, wasn't the 2-speed that the '70-71 Catalina used something called a "Super Turbine 300" or something like that? I don't think it was the Chevy Powerglide.

The B-O-P cars used a Super Turbine 300 that I believe was originally a Buick transmission and had a different bolt pattern to fit the BOP engines. I am told it was also different internally but the one in my Cutlass still has that same Powerglide whine in neutral, so I'm not totally sure.

uplanderguy

Probably about five years ago, I saw a super-low-mileage, light blue metallic '71 Catalina 2-door hardtop at a show in my hometown. It had its window sticker on it, and the car was built in Canada (I think Ontario)--most all I can remember seeing new were built in Pontiac, MI. It was a 350 and had a two-speed automatic which I assumed was a Powerglide. I was stunned at the time, as I can't remember even seeing a '71 full-size Chevy with a Powerglide although that'd be in the brochure. Seems to me the window sticker just said "Automatic Transmission".

This car was immaculate, but trimmed inside and out (except for Pontiac's better instrument panel), like the same-year Chevy Bel Air. Outside, it had just the tiny rocker panel molding and roof drip molding, no side molding, no wheel opening moldings, and blackwalls and small hub caps with body-colored wheels.

I don't know why I would've thought this, necessarily, but at the time I was wondering if the Canadian assembly and odd engine/trans combo might've been the result of the big strike at GM early in the '71 model year. It had been delivered to a U.S. dealer, but that's all I remember.

ab348

GM Canada did build the Catalina for the Canadian market in '71. Maybe some made their way into the USA supply chain. But buyers would have gotten an unpleasant surprise if they opened the hood, because V-8 models came standard with the Chevy 350. If you ordered a convertible you got the Pontiac 350, which tells me that GM Canada probably wasn't assembling Catalina convertibles that year and they were sourcing them out of the US plant. I suspect that the volume models up here - the Catalina, Parisienne Brougham, and Laurentian - were all made in Canada with the Chevy engine and transmission standard while other models sold here were sourced out of the US and came with Pontiac powertrains. But I can't say for sure. It was goofy because you could, for example, order a low-line Laurentian with the optional Pontiac 455, so that had to be made here, meaning that GM Canada was bringing up Pontiac engines from the USA. So it was theoretically possible all of them could have been assembled by GM Canada. It must have been a nightmare both for the assembly plant and the dealer network.

Back to the Catalina, here is what they looked like according to the Canadian brochure:

uplanderguy

Those might be the same photos as in the U.S. brochure--Pontiac used mechanical drawings/art in their brochures for a long time. Those are looking familiar to me.

I'm pretty sure I remember the door panels having a hard plastic section at the very top, with a separate center soft section with the woodgrain insert.

ab348

Maybe it was a Laurentian you saw?

uplanderguy

No, it was definitely a Catalina. Those seats in that brochure are like the Bel Air seats that year--the interior was the same as U.S. Catalinas.

uplanderguy

The exterior trim was minimalist as-standard, and the interior was similar to Impala other than the hard section on top of the door panels, like on this convertible. The interior in the car I remember was cloth-and-vinyl though.

https://car-from-uk.com/sale.php?id=84023&country=ca

andre1969

How's this for cheaping out...in the '71 Chevy brochure, and the '71 Canadian Pontiac brochure, they use the same picture, to show the interior for the Bel Air and the Laurentian! Same green hue, vinyl and cloth, door open. Same scenery in the background. Same evergreen bush, and forest in the background that has just enough leaves that it makes me think of April.



Looks like they airbrushed out the little chrome accent on the Bel Air's seat, and also changed the little bright piece of trim on the center of the door.

Unless, they went through the effort to take both a green Bel Air and a green Laurentian, put them in front of the same backdrop on a studio, in the exact same position, and take the pic from the same angle?

ab348

The Laurentian was a BelAir for most of its run in terms of interior trim (except for the dash), which explains that. Similar powertrains too until the '70s. It was bizarre.

uplanderguy

Outside, I think the '71 and '72 Catalinas were BelAir-like in standard trim. I believe the Catalina had the roof drip moldings standard, but didn't have the side window reveal moldings like Impala 4-door sedans did (optional on Catalina).

I think from the late sixties through the early '70's probably, Impala beat Catalina on standard exterior trim, seat trim and interior door panel trim, but Catalina beat it on instrument panel. Seems to me the brass must've thought so much time is spent facing the instrument panel, Pontiac's ought to be better--and it usually was, as far as decoration.

That BelAir cloth seat trim is not bad IMHO, but it seems like most of that pattern I remember seeing were all-vinyl, which looked considerably cheaper overall I think.

uplanderguy

BTW, andre--good spotting there!

sda

ab348 said:

GM Canada did build the Catalina for the Canadian market in '71. Maybe some made their way into the USA supply chain. But buyers would have gotten an unpleasant surprise if they opened the hood, because V-8 models came standard with the Chevy 350. If you ordered a convertible you got the Pontiac 350, which tells me that GM Canada probably wasn't assembling Catalina convertibles that year and they were sourcing them out of the US plant. I suspect that the volume models up here - the Catalina, Parisienne Brougham, and Laurentian - were all made in Canada with the Chevy engine and transmission standard while other models sold here were sourced out of the US and came with Pontiac powertrains. But I can't say for sure. It was goofy because you could, for example, order a low-line Laurentian with the optional Pontiac 455, so that had to be made here, meaning that GM Canada was bringing up Pontiac engines from the USA. So it was theoretically possible all of them could have been assembled by GM Canada. It must have been a nightmare both for the assembly plant and the dealer network.

Back to the Catalina, here is what they looked like according to the Canadian brochure:

Dad had a Catalina coupe As a company car just like the one in the picture, but same color and roof as the top 4dr hardtop. It also had the Rallye wheels which gave it a rather sporty look. It had the 350 2bbl, Turbo-hydramatic. Kind of a dog acceleration wise.

uplanderguy

It always irritated me that Chevy quit offering Rally Wheels on full-size Chevys in '71, and later. The B-O-P big cars still could get their versions of them. I agree that they added a nice touch of flash.