I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

uplanderguy

Back then, I thought the '73 Monte Carlo way-outshone the previous one, but I don't think so now. The earlier one has stood the test of time better, I think. I wish there wasn't so much similarity in instrument panel to the lowlier Chevelle, though.

Outside, I like the '69-70 Grand Prix a lot, and I like the interior (at least the dash is totally different than the LeMans). It came with no glove compartment though...only the center console compartment! If you got a bench seat, then you got a glove compartment. I didn't like how they
'chiseled' the decklid and made only one headlight per side on '71 and '72 models.

Of all the '73-77 midsize GM luxo coupes, I think I like the '76-77 Regal the best. It's styling was simplified. I think it's funny that the Cutlass, Century and Regal coupes got a facelift for '76 while the Chevy and Pontiac soldiered on with their '73 bodies.

berri

Moving on to 3rd gen Monte Carlo, I wasn't a big fan of the downsized GM intermediates, but thought the 78/79 Monte was a nice looker. I think they wrecked it when they added quad headlights in 80. I bought a 79 Monte Carlo; 305 4bbl, buckets, etc. If I had more money at the time though I would have gone with a 350 V8 79 Bonneville coupe or maybe a LeSabre T-Type. Sports roof with raked C pillar, no vinyl top. In fact, I didn't even care for vinyl tops on the previous GM colonade coupes and bought my Cutlass without one. But I don't have "classic" design taste either because I liked the fake wire wheel covers and mags back then. One of Andre's prehistoric pimps!

uplanderguy

I liked the Malibu Classic of '78 and '79 better than the Monte, but I did like how when you got the buckets (like you did), the console came up to meet the dash. I liked the gloss black decorative panels on the dash and console too.

explorerx4

a black/black black bumper MGB convertible.
a black Model T on a state highway, speed limit 45.
a red 90's(?) Dodge Stealth.

magnette

Just come back from my trip...

Started at Schlumpf - it was quite overwhelming... It is a vast collection, and takes a while to get round - if anything there were too many Bugattis, if that is possible - acres of them - I don't think I've seen more than half a dozen in one place before and they had over a hundred.... I took a couple of hours on the afternoon I arrived and most of the day afterwards, and about six hundred photos, but although some of the halls are brilliantly lit, the area where the most prestigious cars are on show (the Royales, the two Voisins, Isotta Fraschinis, etc...) is very dark, and hence difficult to get good photos...

Don't bother with a detour to Hechlingen - I went there on Friday (website said it was open Thursday to Sunday) to find a note stuck on the door and basically it was shut... I looked through the windows and it was an old filling station / car showroom really filled with a variety of old cars bikes and trucks,but nothing really special. It was an hour each way on the (efficient) train, but the weather was nice and I took a stroll though the village before catching the train back to Stuttgart...

You know Mercedes Benz of course - great collection - and Porsche, which is a great museum. The real surprise was Sinsheim - it is such an eclectic mix of cars, machinery, etc.... Railway engines, loads of armoured vehicles, tractors etc, and mixed in with old musical machines and aircraft. It gave some incongruous moments though - you find yourself looking at a wrecked WW2 Stuka while listening to a fairground organ playing "Tie a yellow ribbon.." There are bits of engines of all sorts, and the biggest are from submarines or ships so some really large lumps. The aircraft range from a couple of microlights or whatever their prewar equivalent was called to a number of airliners, including an Air France Concorde and an Aeroflot equivalent TU144..

I actually printed out a Google map of the area as I though it would be helpful to find my way from the station - but it wasn't really necessary given that the Concorde etc were on the roof of the museum and are visible for a few miles round....

Over seven days I've seen more makes of cars I've hardly heard of (never in some cases) - and Stuttgart certainly does have a car culture - loads of really top-end motors and old cars too - there was a really nice Citroen DS going to work every morning while I was having breakfast in the hotel..

tjc78

Nice driver quality first gen Corvette this morning. Red/Red with white. Top down on a chilly 55 degree morning.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, a *real* convertible owner!

Car Museums---fintail's trip inspires me to think once again about a podcast called "The history of the automobile". Is there any such thing already?

fintail

Nice, thanks for the update. I have a full day allotted for both Sinsheim and Schlumpf, so I think I should have ample time. I didn't know Sinsheim had a Stuka either, looking forward to seeing that, even if it is a wreck. Technical museums are popular in Germany - I visited one in Berlin that didn't have any cars, but all kinds of other tech relics.

In Stuttgart I plan to visit the MB museum again, and try to get in a factory tour. I will also have a free day which I had planned to use for general sightseeing and laundry, but might make it up to Porsche again. And like you say, lots of high end stuff on the road there - you'll see the nicest MBs and Porsche there, possible execs or test cars. I remember seeing some kind of interesting late 60s era German Ford fastback when I was there last.

If you haven't been to Ingolstadt or Wolfsburg, they are also worthy of a visit. The VW facility is more like a theme park, but the view of the factory is worth it alone. The Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern has a small but nice display, too. Very diverse selection, with the cars stacked up like Matchbox cars in a carrying case. Here's a sample - Miura next to a Tatra 77, hard to beat that for weirdness:

fintail

I think there are tours of auto history sites in Germany - could probably hit it all in an easy 10 days or so, including the Ring, Schlumpf and Sinsheim. The MBCA offers some kind of trip, but I find it much more cost effective to plan it all myself.

magnette

They had both a wrecked Stuka and a complete JU88, together with a couple of JU52's - the one outside on the roof is accessible so you can get in the passenger compartment, and look through into the cockpit although it is at a funny angle because it is mounted on a frame as if in flight... Also an FW190, etc, and a few Russian planes too - MIG15, etc.
I did think about Ingoldstat, ad possibly Wolfsburg - but that's for another day... Also Speyer which is of course owned by the same people as Sinesheim. I thought I might combine the latter with my trip to Frankfurt next year for the motor show (I usually go to that as it is held every two years). Also I have started planning a trip to Essen in the spring, and if I do that might actually combine it with a run up to The Hague for their new museum.
Lucerne looks good, too - I'll add it to the list. You mentioned that you were probably going through Luxembourg to add it to your list - they've got a transport museum too....
That blue car stacked in the picture is Lancia Lambda - they've got one of those in Schlumpf too - next to a much bigger DiLambda - I think the Lambda is the first series produced integral body car, or at least one of the earliest.

fintail

Those planes will be a fun sight - I had an interest in German WW2 aircraft when I was younger, but haven't seen much in person. I always liked the Stuka and prehistoric jets. I am looking forward to Sinsheim, should be a good day. I think I also read they have at least one Kettenkrad there - I have a thing for those too.

I will keep Luxembourg in mind. Lambda was one of the first or the first independent suspension car too, I think.

Mr_Shiftright

Intact Stukas are quite rare---I think a museum in the UK has one of the few complete ones.

texases

Some recent show had a German Stuka pilot talking about his experiences while the host and he walked around one...can't remember which show, though :confuse:

magnette

The RAF museum in Hendon, north London, has a Stuka - or it did about ten years ago. I think there is one at Duxford too.

fintail

I think years ago I read that there are no airworthy examples out there, but a few replicas have been built. Could have fun with that siren :shades:

explorerx4

I remember seeing an ME 262 at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum many years ago.
What I really remember about was the display of German Medals behind it.
I have my Grandfather's Iron Cross from 1942, so it was 'Wow that really is kind of big'.
There is also an annex located at the beginning of the landing zone of Dulles Airport.
Lots of great stuff (understatement) there, including an SR-71 and the Enola Gay.
Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center

Mr_Shiftright

Some historians call the Stuka the "first terror weapon".

tjc78

85ish Chevy Celebrity Eurosport wagon in pristine shape. It has to be a Granny car that never left the garage for 20 years.

lemko

I remember seeing a review of the Eurosport wagon in Motor Trend. The title read "A Little Euro, a Little Sport, But Not Much of Either."

fintail

Interesting that some of the WW2 material was saved and put in the museum not long after the war. More foresight than today, where I suspect all such machines would be destroyed simply for the sake of it.

fintail

My brother had a Lumina "Euro"...I used to tease that I thought it was a BMW :shades:

1st gen sedan, so it was a kind of awkward piece of design.

tjc78

At lunch, A Dodge Lil Red Express Pickup. Looked like a survivor, far from pristine but decent enough.

toomanyfumes

Mother-in- law had a two-door Celebrity Eurosport. Didn't look too bad, black with very little chrome, but no fun at all to drive with the iron duke four and column [non-permissible content removed] automatic.

fintail

A 2 door Eurosport has to be a rare thing these days. I remember the Eurosport wagon wasn't terrible looking, for the era.

Saw a chrome bumper MGB and a TR4 today.

texases

Puts that era in (sad) perspective, a Eurosport with the v6 wasn't bad for the time...

hpmctorque

It took some nerve to put the Eurosport moniker on anything with the Iron Duke under the hood.

My '86 Grand Am 2=door (with 5-speed and Touring Suspension, or whatever they called the upgrade) had that lump under the hood, but Pontiac called it the Tech-4. It did the job, until it blew the head gasket at 188,000. At that point it didn't owe me anything, especially since someone put a big dent in the driver's side door shortly before the engine gave up. To its credit, though, and in contrast to most Detroit iron of the '80s, this car was low maintenance.

uplanderguy

A 2 door Eurosport has to be a rare thing these days.

The only new car I ever ordered was an '85 Eurosport 2-door. I tried to order it to be mechanically as close as possible to the 6000 STE, which was the darling of the auto press at that time. I ordered the 2.8 MFI V6, Goodyear Eagle tires, aluminum wheels (same as on the Citation X11), instruments (loved them, what few there were--they had very thin needles and resembled stereo tuner instruments of the day), and the factory "Extended Range Sound System" which even got you a little extra emblem on the instrument panel.

I had heard even then to avoid the 4-speed automatic, but since it was March (late in the year), the 4-speed was a required option, apparently for GM to pass CAFE that year. I had to pay extra, and it did lose 3rd and 4th gears at 37K miles (when the warranty was 24K miles). For $100 my dealer replaced the trans and I had no further problems after that.

I remember when ordering, the salesman came back and said "The aluminum wheels are on backorder". I said, "If it comes in without them, I'm not buying the car". He told me six to eight weeks for the car. He also made the mistake of telling me they got a status update on orders every Monday morning. So after the first few weeks, I'd call him every Monday morning.

After 12 weeks, the car came in. He was so sick of me by that time! He spent about five minutes delivering the car to me. After he took off, I noticed the factory floor mats weren't in the car. I had to track him down and he looked irritated, then asked if I had indeed ordered the mats--had to show him the window sticker, so he then had the Parts Dept. order them.

I might add, when I went into the dealership to order the car, I was not quite 27 years old and dressed in jeans and T-shirt. A couple salesmen were playing cards and didn't even acknowledge me. The guy I did buy from walked by me and I said, "Excuse me..." and he said, "No one's taken care of you yet?". I wanted a car bad. Now, I'd walk out of a situation like that.

The dealer was Timmers in Norcross, GA. Don't know if they're stlll there or not. The salesman was Carl Hadden or Haddon, I remember that.

I'm glad I got an '85 as I heard the '86's were having the CHMSL (third brake light) and at the time I thought that'd be goofy. As it was, I didn't like the grille or instrument panel details as well on the '86, either, once they came out.

My car was a very dark solid plum color with matching dark plum cloth bucket seats. Most that were that color had the silver two-tone. A friend called that the 'truck two-tone' and I agreed, didn't care for that.

I ordered the car without a tilt wheel. That was a mistake as the fat wheel they put in the Eurosport completely obliterated any view of the speedometer from my seating position. I learned to live with that!

What I did like was the sticky handling, exhaust note, and acceleration and firm ride. It had the most livable back seat of any two-door car I'd ever owned, particularly in the middle position, although it was tuff to get back there...Celebrity two-door front doors weren't all that long.

fintail

Sounds like you bought the car at the same place where Clark Griswold bought the Truckster - "I know what it happened, it didn't come in" :shades: . Was that 2.8 the same as in later cars? I remember I loathed the exhaust note in 2.8 Pontiacs 1988+ - I have called it the "popcorn popper". I wonder if special orders like that are even possible today.

An aunt of mine had an 86 Celebrity sedan. The one year only front clip. Been about 20 years since she had it, but I remember it wasn't trouble free - don't recall if it was a 4 or 6. I remember driving with her and my dad, and she asked "why does it do that", when it shook upon slowing down. Insanely warped front brakes.

uplanderguy

Warped brake rotors have annoyed me on cars for years more than any single thing. Luckily, haven't had the issue in my last couple of cars. When I posted that one of the car mags had repeated problems with warped rotors on a new Odyssey, somebody here said they could live with that if the rest of the vehicle was good. Not me. I absolutely can't stand that.

tjc78

Warped rotors don't bother me too much, because I tend to brake hard and usually cause it myself. The only good thing is most bumper to bumper warranties will cover it. Toyota replaced the rotors in my Solara and 03 Avalon without question when I complained of a vibration when braking.

It seems to be better on newer cars, because the rotors are much larger.

fintail

I've never actually owned a car with the issue. It would drive me nuts too. Seems uncommon on MB - maybe the rotors are stronger. They cost enough to replace, so they better have some redeeming quality.

Obscure cars today. 64-65 Mustang convertible parked outside with the top down, MB 300CD, mean sounding 78-80 Monte Carlo, maybe 36-37 Dodge or Plymouth pickup, and when I went to pick up my old beast, this was sharing the garage:



I rent this garage spot, the guy who rents the other half has a 67 Lincoln Continental convertible and now apparently at least 2 Avantis. The ones I have seen before were very nice, this one is a project. Weak paint (probably old repaint by the way it is falling off the car), general neglected look. Original interior that can probably be reclaimed, original wheels, period Blaupunkt AM-FM radio.

Visited a local high end used dealer, who had a few oddballs - nice 58 Impala, mild custom 49 Caddy convertible (easily put back to stock), 2x E63 wagons, late Lotus Esprit, among others.

And, when I was out, I spotted one of these:



Alfa 8c 2900 - and I know it's real, as I saw it at a local show once. 7 figure car?

stickguy

the '75ish redesign where they took the relatively clean 70 design, and made it all swoopy and silly.

looked to be all original though.

wevk

http://www.americantorque.com/game/car-show-50s/

uplanderguy

That is my favorite angle of an Avanti, although I definitely prefer the original Studebaker version to the later ones which lost the forward 'rake' and had smaller front wheel openings.

That back window was the largest installed in a car at that time. I know I'm wildly outnumbered on this one, but I'm glad they didn't feel compelled to make it a two-piecer like the Corvette. I really like '62 Corvettes (old tech, I know), but the '63, in silver especially, reminds me of something one would see in a cheesy Buck Rogers-like old TV show about 'the future'. But that's me.

fintail

I think the 63 Vette has a lot of futuristic cool, but the window wouldn't work well on an Avanti, I agree.

On the pic I posted, if you see the spot to the upper left of the rear nameplate, that's one place where paint was literally falling off. I assume the cars weren't that poorly finished when new. Also unusual to me that it had a vintage German radio.

Mr_Shiftright

Alfa 8c 2900 --- more like EIGHT figures!

The 67 Lincoln convertibles are coming up strong these days. The Avanti you describe is probably not worth restoring unless it were the rare R-3.

au1994

Just to show you there are some honest folks on the internet, I scored 79%.

50's Iron is not my forte so I'll take it!

uplanderguy

That Avanti is a mid-seventies model. I remember reading that a Blaupunkt radio was an option from the factory.

A friend bought a gorgeous R1 Avanti recently at a dealer. It was listed at $29K but I don't know what they paid. I am aware of a stunning R2 Avanti with 10K miles that sold on eBay two years or so ago for $47,999. I know it's only a snapshot in time, but there are two '67 Lincoln convertibles on eBay now. One has a BIN of $28-odd and the other $23-odd. Nothing to sneeze at, but somebody I know who knows sixties Lincolns says they are an electrical nightmare when things need done on them.

I like the '61-63 Lincolns best, followed by the '64-65. Funny, the '61-63 had curved side glass, rare for the time, but the '64-65 had flat side glass.

fintail

92%. I am pleased.

fintail

I suspect the Alfa was a McCaw car - that family owns a huge host of big money significant cars, and are sometimes actually driven. I've seen a few of their large displacement prewar Bentleys on the road here. It was an amazing sight. A few minutes earlier, I was out in the fintail thinking "this is by far the oldest car on the road" - then I see the 30s pickup, then the Alfa.

fintail

I very much prefer the 61-63 models too - the curves are seen throughout the car and are the intended design.

uplanderguy

It's a function of my age, but whenever I see a '66 or '67 Continental convertible, I'm reminded of the show "Green Acres". That's the car that Eddie Albert and Eva Gabor ("Mr. and Mrs. Douglas") drove on the show.

I'm old enough to remember it was a big deal when the '66 Lincolns came out and for the first time in several years, they offered a Continental Coupe (with an accent over the final 'e'!).

fintail

I remember one of those coupes in the town where I lived as a teen. It was in very nice condition, the same dark blue as my first car 66 Galaxie. Those late Continentals are kind of boxy and blocky to my eyes.

texases

"Just to show you there are some honest folks on the internet, I scored 79%.

50's Iron is not my forte so I'll take it! "

Ditto, I got 79%, too. Obvious ones were easy, but the single year multiple models from one maker, along with same model different year ones tripped me up.

omarman

Pretty much same results here at 83%. Trying to sort out the B-O-P GM models and various Chrysler-Dodge-Plymouth brands dropped my score to middling... That parade of 1958 GM cars reeked. At least I got the American Graffiti Chevy right. :shades:
"Look, creep. You want a knuckle sandwich?"
"Uh, no thanks. I'm waiting for a double Chucky Chuck."

andys120

96%, I mixed up two Mercuries!

Mr_Shiftright

You can buy nice, clean #3/3+ R1 Avantis well under $20,000. It's a "love it or hate it" kind of collectible car, so values will bounce all over the place. It's not a car you'd want to invest a lot of money in, at any rate. If classic cars were like stocks, I'd put the Avanti portfolio into "hold" or "sell". A '67 Lincoln convertible is only going up up and up IMO.

uplanderguy

We had similar discussions about Avantis and Hawks versus the same year Rivieras. I think eBay is the best barometer of what people are willing to pay, when looked at over time. I think some of the long-held conventional wisdom has shifted in the past several years as well.

Of course, being a convertible is always a good thing for value, often doubling other bodystyles. As an example, here's an '89 Avanti convertible (no way would I consider one of those), that's bid to $19.5K right now with three days left on the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-Avanti-convertible-1-So-Cal-owner-11-664-mil- - - - es-/120992099130?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c2bb0eb3a

I think the Continental sedans of the era mentioned are very good buys right now. What would make you single out a '67, when that body began with the '66 model year and extended through the '69 run? Just curious more than anything.

I would like to see a 3+ Avanti R1, original or authentic paint and interior and good-running, for much less than $20K. I am in the process of selling my '66 Studebaker Daytona 2-door sedan, 283 V8, for $12,500 and have a buyer. It's a rock-solid car, very clean underneath, but with orange-peel-y paint. I think it looks nice/authentic, in and out.

uplanderguy

Answering my own question..fintail mentioned seeing a '67. Sorry about that.

Mr_Shiftright

Clean 3+ Avantis under $20K are not hard to find.

Even under $10,000 for quite decent cars.

I see them all the time.

eBay is just one small part of a much larger collector car universe.