I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

uplanderguy

Here's the Speedster:

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=HF12&CarID=r144&Currency=USD

Here's the Continental convertible sedan:

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=HF12&CarID=r171&Currency=USD

jljac

Those auction results were so interesting, not only the 1955 Studebaker President Speedster (what a great name for a car) , but also this little beast, a 1954 Messerschmitt KR 175.

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=HF12&CarID=r189&Currency=USD

These two vehicles are gems and better that my 1955 Messerschmitt that I bought in Germany for $300 in 1975 and the 1955 Commander I bought for $700 in 1979. However I still have my vehicles and plan to enjoy them for many more years before I sell them.

It seems that 1955 was a good year. Thanks for posting.

Mr_Shiftright

But it's not a stunner---the Packard was in covered storage for 40 years---that's not a fresh show car. I'ts described as "mechanically sorted", (meaning not mechanically restored) and it was repainted, which means the original paint was shot, as was the top. So it's probably a high #3 car. So the price is about right.

The 300C was estimated to sell at $125,000, which is about market correct. I have no idea why it sold so cheap---either someone got a hell of a bargain, or in fact, the car was not as described.

Once again, and you and I will go around on this forever :P ---we cannot determine the market value of a car by one sale this way or that, nor can we determine if the sale was accurate or a bargain or overpriced unless we have some impartial testimony as to what the car really was at the time of the auction.

If your premise (don't mean to put words in your mouth) is that a '55 Studebaker is worth more than a Packard Carib and a 300C, I would heartily have to disagree with you on that point.

But on this one day, with these particular cars, yes it was.

uplanderguy

We tend to go round and round on values, as when Studebakers do well (as they have at the big auctions the past few years--mostly '50's C and K's), you say it's an anomaly. But I can provide result after result without barely trying. As it was with Rivieras, you mention what good ones could bring, and in months of looking, I never see any sell that high. I think the real anomalies are what you say certain of the Big Three bring. I do think it used to be that way more than it has been lately.

The ad for the Caribbean mentions that the owner, Harold Coker (wonder if he's part of Coker Tire?) "...carefully restored" the car. I do think it's odd there are no pics of the front seat, and the rear seat looks like a re-upholster job.

Of the four cars listed, only the Stude exceeded its auction expectations according to the ad.

The Lincoln, being a '60's model, is not really fair competition to the three '50's models, but I posted it since we recently had discussion on what show-quality (as this one is) Continental convertibles bring.

Mr_Shiftright

I didn't say the Studebaker was an anomaly at all. I said very distinctly that is was a market correct sale for a show car.

Anyway, I have to base my opinions on sales plotted through auction databases over the last 3-4 years and that's real money paid for real cars, so I tend to think it's good info. In other words, as an appraiser I have to prove my numbers to clients and insurance companies.

You aren't looking in the right places, perhaps (you may not have access to my databases) or you're looking at the wrong Grade of car for the price, but the data is the data, so what can I say?

Besides, you are not impartial to the makes you like and I just look at numbers--I don't care if Car X is worth more than Car Y, --my job is to find out what Car X and Car Y are worth.

This is why we have appraisers appraising cars and not club members

I'd like to start a topic on "How To Read Auction Descriptions and Results". There are a lot of code words that they use to cover their butts. E.G. "sympathetic restoration" / "still looks great for a 1999 restoration" / "ready to drive and enjoy" / "fresh frame-on restoration" /

uplanderguy

Being human beings, we all have the makes we like and dislike. We've had this conversation before. And I know you are a son of a Packard employee, and I've met Packard guys who disdain anything and anybody Studebaker, like some of the Civil War guys and offspring did for Yankees, for a century!;)

I've only bought and sold three old cars in my life, but I trust eBay first for values. The auction results are interesting though, especially when similar results are seen in more than one auction.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, if you can track auction results for 3-4 years you have a much better idea of the market.

I really don't have any preferences for the cars I appraise. I only look at cold hard numbers--that's what a professional is supposed to do.

I would be remiss as an appraiser were I to base a car's value on one sale at one auction.

Also I'm pretty damn fussy when I grade a car---most often, what people call a #1 is more like a #3 to me--if I'm looking at the car in person.

when I see a true #1 car I will track that against other magnificent restorations, not against something on eBay.

The very best cars often change hands privately, so you have to know the dealers to get some of these private sale prices.

uplanderguy

Similarly, I've sold three cars privately...no reporting of sale prices. My guess is that far more cars trade hands through eBay than otherwise. I can tell you this, without even dickering, all three of my Larks sold for more than the "Old Cars Price Guide", which we in the S.D.C. often laugh at as it lists the 4-door (post) Cruiser as selling for higher than Daytona Hardtops in the '62-64 era--laughable to anybody who has followed sale prices of Studebakers.

From the auction listing at Hershey, I see that excellent '50's Cadillac convertibles are as high as ever---six figures!

fintail

I came across this today, and as so many of these are still on the road, I thought it was worth mention.

Roughly 33 years ago today, the W126 debuted.



Easily the most advanced sedan in the world at the time (if not production car), even in that ugly period color. Within several months of production, airbag and ABS would become optional and ordered by the tens of thousands. A rare bright spot in the worst days of malaise. The car was probably 10 years ahead of the rest of the industry. The 500 series cars even put out 240hp - supercar numbers in those dark days. This was MB really hitting its stride, and via this created a mass market quality image it exploits to this day.

stickguy

still looks modern today, Could tidy it up a smidge, and reintroduce it.

fintail

Flush side glazing is really the only glaring issue keeping the design from being totally modern. The first Lexus LS did it - smoothed out the W126 and sold it as new.

About a year later, the even smoother coupe would debut. Hard to believe this is over 30 years old:



Maybe not "milestone" cars in the classic sense, but eventually I think they should deserve a similar title.

uplanderguy

I know you like Benzes big-time, but I think the styling of those sedans (I exclude the coupes) is so bland. The flat-colored wheels, and the lower-body color that I think influenced that bad cladding look on domestic cars a few years later. I will say it does not look dated though.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I've offered all I can on the matter of how market value is determined. The Studebaker topic is still open so we can chat over there more...

Postwar Studebakers

Let's stay on topic.

fintail

I think it is a timeless design. Of course, I am biased, but I can't think of many sedans which have aged so well. The cladding served a practical purpose - there must be some kind of aerodynamic benefit, and on a W126, it was used to save weight - the lower metal door skin on these cars is designed for the cladding.

I also owned one several years ago, the only car I really regret selling. It was a beauty. Sold it on impulse to get something newer and faster, almost perfect colors and condition even though it was getting miled up, Was near 200K when I sold it and it needed a few grand in renovations, I should have done it:

uplanderguy

Awful lot of M-B posts here...better give 'em their own board!

Fintail, I'm just kiddin'.

fintail

I guessed as much

Maybe could merge the MB and Stude talk seeing as they have a short but significant shared history in the US.

Mr_Shiftright

If anyone wants to start a specialized topic, just let me know!

omarman

I always thought the original purpose of the ribbed lower cladding was to serve as a splash guard. Aero and weight-saving mods maybe evolved from there.

That S class coupe was and still is a sturdy looking, handsome car. If not classic, then iconic for the 80s. I don't see well-kept examples around here very often but they do turn up on CL in sad condition.

A true classic milestone car like this '66 DS inspires lavish care and restoration - and yet it also shows up on my CL with needs! But between those two cars you can tell which one is loved more. I always thought it strange that one of the most loved German cars was a VW Beetle. I always hated those things. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

the 500 SEC is way overpriced--you can buy these as decent drivers for $4000 without serious body damage or a salvage title.

fintail

I know the ribbed rear lights were designed to prevent the accumulation of dirt. The ribs on the cladding went away for the 1986 model year, and the cars gained flat face 15" wheels (like in that ad) the same year.

That SEC ad is funny, I like the 22K NADA value quote. For an SEC to be worth that, it would need to either be an AMG car, or to have been hermetically sealed all of its life, with not much more than a four digit original mileage.

DS looks nice, good that it is a single light version, and it is a signficant car, price is pretty steep though. Price would be better if recomissioning was completed - 20 years sitting idle can be expensive. A car that was like a spaceship in 1955 will draw more attention than one that was advanced in 1979.

Mr_Shiftright

I would say that the best 500 SEC coupe in the world today, a glistening jewel so magnficent that Mercedes people would fly in to bow down to it---might be worth $13,000.

fintail

If it was a truly pristine zero mileage 99+ point car, it should bring more...but there would be a good chance the buyer would live in Europe, where there is already some preservation of 126 cars. Especially if it was a high option grey market car.

560SECs suffer the same way, and some have already gone back home. The only good money for these things is AMG or other tuned cars. A widebody 6 liter car will bring OK money.

Mr_Shiftright

The auction data over the past 3 years suggests that $13000 is the sky high limit---that is, no one has ever paid more for one, at least none recorded. So I'm skeptical that any more is possible for it. This makes sense to me, as they are complex vehicles and they suck gas like a whale eats krill and they have as much hope as their older coupe 250C and 280C and 450SLC brothers of being high buck cars--which means no chance in the immediate decade to follow.

ab348

Not a fan of those big C-series coupes at all. I don't remember seeing many of them new, but in recent years I have seen a few and they are invariably tarted out and driven by swarthy-looking young men of middle eastern or Mediterranean descent who are bathed in cologne and wearing all sorts of bling. Unattractive in every way.

fintail

There are also very few truly time warp cars out there - these aren't like late 70s limited edition barges that people locked away. Most were driven.

Those older coupes also aren't as good to drive, and can have their own troubles - early emissions, carbs, etc.

If you see a truly mint documented AMG car for under 25K, send me a message.

kyfdx

I can still remember Boomer Esiason driving his 560 SEC .... (new, of course)....

fintail

That's what happened to most 90s era big coupes too, and even the early 00s cars have fallen into the neglect and douched out segment of the market. When the suspension or ABC fails, the car is totaled if it has other issues on top of it. When you see aftermarket wheels, you know the downhill slide has started.

Mr_Shiftright

Well quite frankly Mercedes reliability is not so great, and when things break on these old barges, it can really hurt. The build quality is superb but that's the rub--these old Benzes can look great and be total beaters nonetheless.

You don't find them "mint" anymore because they all fall into the hands of people who cannot afford to maintain them.

People with means buy new ones, or newer ones. They don't want 80s discards. And collectors don't really want the common sedans and coupes because they are too new.

Remember it's buyers who determine market value, not sellers or price guides or auction house estimates or ads posted in Europe. It's the buyer who has the power over it.

fintail

Collectors and brand enthusiasts seek out the low mileage and/or low owner cars with documentation. Cars where the problem areas have been addressed. That's a small amount of the surviving vehicles for sure.

I guess it is location location location. Put a truly mint 500SEC for sale in Germany for 10K Euro, you'll sell it in a day. Maybe not so easy here.

Mr_Shiftright

I think markets are pretty much global now, so the maximum value here is pretty much the same in Germany for a common car like a 500SEC. If it were, you know, a Baur 320i convertible or a 2002 Tii, they might kick in more money back in the Fatherland, that's true.

Keep in mind that they have to ship the thing across the ocean, and probably pay some taxes as well.

fintail

I know of diesel W126s that have been shipped back, just because they are curiosities in Europe. The global market effect exists for newer cars, but once 25 years or so pass, maybe not. Regional tastes can make an impact - like that Baur or a fintail, both of which are worth modest amounts in NA. See what a nicely equipped fintail trades for in continental Europe. There's a reason so many nice ones have gone home, even if it costs a few grand to ship it back.

lemko

Around here, there is a Lexus SC400 that has suffered this fate - painted blinding bright red, gold package, blingy wheels, and a super-stupid aftermarket spoiler on the decklid.

fintail

I see stuff like that here too, even out in the relative sticks where my mom lives, I've seen more than one blinged out/clapped out old Lexus. I was also seeing messed up Infinitis at least 10 years ago. No car is more sad than a poorly aging luxoboat.

imidazol97

andre1969

I never did like those Aerobacks, but I do think the Century turbo, in the right color combo, was passable. One of my old car books has a pic of one in two-tone black-over silver, that looks pretty sharp. Can't remember the last time I've seen ANY aeroback though, let alone a turbo!

I did see a LeSabre turbo coupe the other weekend at Fall Carlisle

fintail

Sole survivor? Has to be one of a few at most.

imidazol97

I don't think there were many sold originally. Someone may know how to find the data on that.

But my anecdotal survey is that I barely remember seeing these on the road. And then to see them with the turbo 3.8 installed under the hood--gotta be a really rare bird.

If this is a 1980-there were 147 built in 1980. I am not sure which year it is!

I think the blue color is a nice look for this car, but I have an aversion to some medium blues because they were excessively popular colors in the 60s in the farm country when I was growing up. There were all these variations on tones of blue and blue-greens.

But I didn't take a picture of another car at this GM cruise--that was the only one that struck me.

andys120

lemko

...dark blue 1947 Cadillac sedan with gray primer spots outside a repair shop on Rte 70 in Cherry Hill, NJ.

andre1969

That Century is either a '78 or '79. the '80 had a slightly different front-end, with a more upright grille, but still raked back around the headlight area. Here's an '80 Coupe on Flickr.

1980 was also the year that the 4-door went to a notchback roofline, somewhat reminiscent of the 1975-79 Seville. The coupe stuck it out with that aeroback roof, but it was a weak seller anyway, only 1074 sold that year. They had sold about 9,000 hunchback coupes in '79. Unfortunately, my book doesn't break out turbo production. There were about 1600 Sport Coupes sold in 1979, but I'm pretty sure they just came standard with the regular V-6, and the turbo was an option.

fintail

Spotted today: Allante, BMW Z8, Vanagon Syncro, 733i (manual, for sale $2200), 67 Mustang, very nice looking black 67-68 Chevy 4 door HT with period rally wheels.

hpmctorque

Wasn't the 305 V8 an option for the coupes in'79?

Mr_Shiftright

'55 Studebaker President Speedster -- pretty rare car---based on a a President 2D HT with some extra trim added This basic platform was used by cash-poor Studebaker for many more years.

andre1969

According to the EPA website, a 305 was offered in 1978 with a 2- or 4-bbl carb. That's news to me, as I didn't think the 305 offered a 4-bbl until 1979. The EPA also shows the 4-bbl 305 being offered on the Regal and Cutlass in '78. But not the Malibu, Monte Carlo, or LeMans/Grand Prix.

For 1979, the EPA shows a Pontiac 301 being used in the Century, as a 2- or 4-bbl, but in California it was substituted with a Chevy 305-4bbl. Also, the EPA doesn't show a listing for the Century turbo in 1978 but it does show it for the Regal. So I guess the Century didn't get it until 1979.

Also, to add to the confusion, they offered the turbo with either a 2- or 4-bbl carb!

For 1980, The Century offered a Pontiac 265-2bbl or 301-4bbl in the 49 states, and a 305-4-bbl in Calfornia. And by this time the Turbo was 4-bbl only.

hpmctorque

Confusion is an understatement. Thanks for clarifying the confusion, but don't test me on it.

fintail

Saw a series III XJ6 today that I suspect had no exhaust system at all - it was LOUD, and not in a good way.

uplanderguy

2215 of those '55 Speedsters built. Thankfully this one isn't one of the 'lemon lime' ones with yellow leather inside!

I believe the fact that the '53 was so radically clean and low compared to anything else then, that nothing else built then could have gotten away with being built eleven model years later, like the Hawk was, and be critically respected by magazines at the time and voted a "Milestone" car when it was ten years old. Somewhere I have a reprint of a fall '63 car magazine article where they tested a supercharged '64 Hawk with disc brakes, and they say basically that.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I think some critics like the Hawk because it was such a neat hat trick--taking old parts and making a pretty handsome car out of it. But technologically, it didn't "milestone" anything much....the T-Bird had a blower long before, Jaguars had disk brakes a decade earlier. But as a low-budget swan song, it was impressive for an Independent to be able to even market such a car. Studebaker did a great PR job on it.

jljac

It should be mentioned that the Speedster had a very nice padded instrument panel that was second to none and was used on the Hawks the following year.



It did not have disc brakes, but it did have the first finned drum brakes in an American production car and the automatic transmission was a three speed with a first gear start and direct drive in third. At that time, the Thunderbird was a two passenger car to compete with the Corvette so I would contend that the Speedster and Hawks had more influence on Ford design than the other way around.

uplanderguy

Thanks for posting that pic, jljac.

Even in the '64 brochure, Studebaker themselves mentioned the Hawk's 'classic styling'! They knew its DNA was from the '53!