I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

fintail

A few of the "Young Classics" for sale at the MB Classic Center:



They used to put window stickers in their cars - no more, probably got tired of people reacting to the high prices. But you are paying for quality - their cars are the best of the best. There's a beautiful 560SEC and an amazing W108 280SE for sale I might show later.

Not much odd here - the vehicle fleet in Germany seems to be getting younger, not much under 10 years old on the road. I think they had a "clunkers" program like the US. I did see an 80s style "white out" Porsche 928 and an old Starlet with pre-Euro plates, which are usually seen, when seen at all, on old MB. Also saw a Rover 75 wagon, which has to be rare even in England, not to mention on the continent.

hpmctorque

Some Euro zone countries had multiple clunker programs. France and Italy come to mind. Maybe Germany has had more than one too.

fintail

There are a few clunkers on the road here, but not like at home. Got behind a mid 00s Opel tall wagon/small van thing that was smoking like a chimney. Going to be a problem come the next inspection.

Saw a Daewoo Leganza today, can't be many of those on the road here. There's a MB C126 in the hotel parking lot, I saw a pristine W123 wagon, 2x (!) Sebring convertibles, 80s Scirocco, a couple of older 911a (seem to be like ordinary used cars here) and a 190E of all things shot past on the autobahn earlier.

hpmctorque

It would be interesting to know whether most of those older cars, some of which were probably still decent or better, were shipped out of the country or scrapped. I'd feel better if if it were the former, assuming they weren't stolen. Yeah, I know, many of them were stolen and shipped East, and elsewhere. The consequences should be harsher for these crimes.

lemko

Any pristine fintails or Pontons spotted?

fintail

I think many were exported to points east and south, especially higher line cars. I remember many years ago, so many MB W140 had been shipped east that they were actually less common than the W126. Less developed areas need cars, too. Surely some were stolen too, but I have to imagine it is a small amount, statistically - I think that fate happens more regularly to brand new models.

fintail

Only in museums. There is virtually nothing on the road here from before the 80s. Anything older will be a specialty car.

I did see a fintail in a museum today - along with a huge amount of other unusual cars. Some American cars, too, but mostly Euro - along with bikes, planes, trains. I visited the Sinsheim Auto + Technik museum, which is pretty famous. I was most amazed at the military displays (saw at least 3 Kettenkrads) and some of their prewar cars were shocking. 2 pillarless 540Ks, for example.

I saw this beast, which is well known:



And I suppose a blackwall Fury sedan is rare anywhere:



And many more.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see pontons anymore even in California, where you'd expect to see a few on the road. Now and then you'll see a cab or coupe in a show, but not 4-doors. I think that the cost of restoration of the 4-doors and their low value pretty much has eliminated them. The fintails were more rugged cars, better suited to modern roads, and since there are no cabs or coupes in that particular finned style, people save what they can.

fintail

Doing ponton woodwork alone would probably cost 5K for an accurate job. Those cars have a lot of fine details that can't be easy to fix - and I bet they know how to rust, too. Probably a more difficult restoration that a fintail, but less flashy and probably no more valuable when finished.

Oddball sight of the day - in Luxembourg (city), a late 70s Mopar sedan decked out like a Dukes of Hazzard police car. No kidding. And as suspected, Netherlands is open to old cars. Saw a bit of older stuff on the road, mostly old MB VW and Volvos.

andys120

I read somewhere that the Dutch have a thing for big old American iron.

explorerx4

Dealer recommended replacing it last month @130k in my '02 Explorer.
I knew it hadn't been replaced in a while, but looking back I think last replacement was @75k.
Didn't think much of it, but it did seem like a tank that would have been 12.5/13.5 ended up @15.4.
What really made the difference obvious was a trip to the Boston area and back last night.
Would have expected about 17.5, but computer was on 19.1.
I could tell I was going further before the gas gauge read 3/4 and 1/2 a tank.

andre1969

Is the fuel filter in your '02 Explorer hard to get to? Hopefully it's not in a hard to get to/expensive spot!

fintail

Saw a 2CV, a W123, an 80s VW Polo, and a H2 pulling a horse trailer today, in the Ring-adjacent town of Adenau.

Also spent a few hours in the amazing "Cockpit Bar" at the Dorint Hotel, chatted with the hotel director and bar creator Josef, who told me of his W123 230E that got to 400K kms with no major repairs at all. Showed him a phone pic of the fintail, he loved it. He has a 60s vintage Formula V car, and the bar is packed with all kinds of racing memorabilia, very cool place.

fintail

Spotted today - Renault Avantime, Peugeot 205 cabrio, pristine 205 sedan, low-rider 70s VW van, Lancia Thema, nice looking 80s Landcruiser with dual hood scoops (must be some turbodiesel thing).

lemko

Didn't Pontons also come with a nice set of matched luggage that is extremely rare these days?

fintail

All MB up through about 1965 (I think) could be ordered with fitted luggage. A nice complete set would be stupendously rare and sought after today, easily commanding 4 figures anyway, even for a sedan. I have a fintail brochure that shows a set - I think it was like 5 or 7 pieces, crazy.

Mr_Shiftright

Even the Gullwing (there is only one "Gullwing" in the world) had that luggage.

explorerx4

I don't know where it is and since it only needs replacement every 30k, not sure I'll be replacing it.
Am planning on driving it a lot this winter, but after that, I'll probably sell it.
Everyone in the family has their stories of adventure or mishap in it, so it could involve some tears.
We will just have to see.

uplanderguy

I saw this car in the flesh this summer, and while white doesn't wow me that much, the rest of the car does. I think this will show people who remember Studebaker for Larks and Scotsmen (?), some of the neat stuff they were cranking out near the end of South Bend production. (Generally, I do prefer the '64, with its smooth decklid and no insert, but I wouldn't throw this car out of my garage!). I'll be curious to see how high it goes...or doesn't.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261126837936

uplanderguy

Is a 'Ponton' the little four-door sedans of the mid-and late-'50's? I have a color photo of the Stude-Packard-MB dealer in my little hometown next to his '58 180 (I think) sedan...black with bright red leather inside. His son (now 83 years old) said it was his Dad's pride and joy.

Mr_Shiftright

Sweet car--in very fine shape and not replaceable /restorable at this bidding range. A GT Hawk of this quality and options should outbid an R2 Avanti. I'm guessing it could go $32500 to $35500.

fintail

Yes, that's the one, rounded fenders (some call the series "round body", similar looks to a very early 50s American car). Was produced in some form from 1953-60. Although modern compared to what it replaced, was a vintage car compared to the fintails that replaced them. Slow, but huge build and materials quality.

fintail

Saw today - a few Peugeot 205, 2x Citroen Visa, 70s era Ford Transit, Hyundai Excel, 2CV. And I visited the Schlumpf Collection, saw a huge amount of odd and/or famous material.

texases

Fin, you recently mentioned the difficulty in restoring the wood in a Ponton - was that referring to interior trim, or is there other timber hiding somewhere?

fintail

Interior trim. There is loads of it. A dashboard replacement alone would be expensive.

uplanderguy

The guy whose '63 R2 Avanti with 10K miles sold on eBay a couple or three years ago for just under $48K, thinks the "Buy It Now" of $40K for this Hawk might be low. He said it's nicer than his Avanti was. Hard to say...a couple years' worth of bad economy since then, and this time of year might give some, some pause.

I love Gran Turismo Hawks and hopefully, someday I'll own a nice one. Would it be wrong to pull my daughter out of college for a couple years to buy this car?

Mr_Shiftright

unless the Avanti R2 was a Pebble Beach quality total restoration, the buyer on eBay paid way too much, probably $15K over market. Congrats to your friend on a home run. A show quality Avanti R2 could bring that, but a #2 or#3 car is not worth $48K in today's market. The Avanti market is quite flat since 2010, actually dipping a bit now. Good time to sell I think, 2010-2012.

A show quality Hawk is worth more than an Avanti R2, period, especially with the right options. The Hawk market is also stagnant at the moment, but has been relatively good the last 3-4 years.

hard to evaluate a car without actually seeing it--$40K is possible, $36K more likely if it's a really really nice #2.

just about everyone likes the looks of the Hawk, a handsome car, but with the Avanti, it's either love or hatred with most people.

lemko

If a Ponton restoration is an expensive undertaking, I can't imagine how costly it would be to restore an Adenauer!

lemko

Somehow, I can picture a sophisticated New Yorker who lives in a swank pad on Central Park East driving a black Gran Turismo Hawk back in the early 1960s.

uplanderguy

A screen shot of the eBay winning bid and car (Avanti) pics are in post 56 here. It was sold on 7/31/11:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?53010-Jim-McCuan-s-10K-mil- - e-R2-Avanti-on-eBay/page2&highlight=Avanti+McCuan

10.7K miles helped, no doubt.

fintail

Including purchase price, I could see dumping 100K into an Adenauer very possible.

uplanderguy

Somehow, I can picture a sophisticated New Yorker who lives in a swank pad on Central Park East driving a black Gran Turismo Hawk back in the early 1960s.

Maybe I should watch "Mad Men" and see if I see any!

I like them in dark colors best.

I remember reading a magazine article once where the author referred to them as 'dapper', and I think that's a perfect description. They're luxurious and sporty IMO, but are 'minimalist' in those respects (a good thing IMHO). That supercharged, four-speed car on eBay only weighs 3,300 lbs, which I think is lighter than other cars of similar size. The lines of the car are deceiving..it's on a 120 inch wheelbase, an inch longer than an Impala of the same year, but it looks smaller.

jljac

There is a documentary of the Beatles arriving in New York for the Ed Sullivan show in February 1964 and one of the cars in their motorcade is a dark GT Hawk. It looks very classic with that long wheelbase. I cannot think of another American production car that is that low in height but long in length. It was an accomplishment to keep it that low considering the flat floor above the frame and the 15 inch wheels. I know from years of personal experience that visibility from the driver's seat is excellent, better on the pre-GT models than the GTs with the Thunderbird roof.

Unfortunately, the design could not be modified into a 4-door model although Studebaker tried to do that before building the sedans with an different frame and body that tried to look like the Lowey coupes & hardtops but actually had very few interchangable parts.

fintail

In Switzerland now, more US cars. Today have seen 90s Suburban, 00s Suburban, CTS, Dodge truck, 80s Firebird, Pontiac Trans Sport (getting rare even in the US), Ford Flex, 80s Caprice being used as a taxi in Zurich (I bet it's a LPG conversion). Funny, 3 years ago here I saw a Caprice taxi too, but this one was a different color scheme.

Nothing vintage of note.

berri

If you want to see American classics, head up to England and Sweden. There is a big fan base in those countries.

fintail

Oh yeah, Netherlands and Germany too - but those are all weekend fun cars. I am spotting normal stuff still in use.

A few today - early Durango, another Dodge truck, 2 more Sebring convertibles, an older LeBaron convertible, early 1930s British car - maybe a Rover (only caught a short glimpse), driven by a couple who were at least as old as the car, a couple nice looking MB W126, MB W123 in taxi duty, Porsche 928...

And a couple odd taxis (shown with other local taxis for comparison)





And this trifecta - CTS, Saab 9000, and early 70s Aston. A big clump of oddity for this area:

uplanderguy

In the center photo, I remember liking the revisions to the DeVille/Concours line that included opening up the rear wheel opening. Lemko, what year was that?

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, kinda an over the top price. The market has gotten softer since then as well. Everyone's nervous right now. But sure, having such ridiculously low miles really does help---A LOT---price guides out the window! ----however, the market is not for cars with 10K original miles on them--that's an outlier, as we say for normal Avanti pricing. But on that day, on that one sale, it's worth whatever the person wishes to pay for it.

fintail

I'm not lemko, but I want to say that was around 1998?

Just saw another oddball - 78-80 Malibu 6 window sedan doing taxi duty in downtown Zurich. It looked like a higher line model - two tone (kind of a gold/bronze and creme/beige) with fancy wire wheel covers. Looked to be in excellent condition.

Also had a Bentley Arnage from ~2000 parked on the sidewalk near me earlier. Took the owner 3 turns of the key to start it...not a good sign.

uplanderguy

...no wonder they sold, they were nicer-looking than other small cars IMHO. I remember when our dealer got their "Millionth Vega" replica car in...Dad and I wondered how they got the "Millionth Vega" (before we knew about the replicas!).

I'd post this over on the GM forum, but it'd probably make some people's heads explode over there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO7oShmrNLg

fintail

The Vega was pretty handsome, esp with small bumpers. The wagon version was especially cleanly styled. Shame it looked so good on paper when the first years were so bad. Could have been a winner..

Odd sightings in Switzerland/Austria today - Sunfire GT, 90s Blazer, Audi C2 200 Turbo, couple of ~20 year old Jags, older Range Rover, MB C43 AMG, BMW E39 wagon with Alpina badging, 80s 2 door Landcruiser, older G-wagen, most everything else no older than the late 90s.

Also visited this museum, which is a must see for those into prewar Rolls - huge variety of Phantom II especially.

Mr_Shiftright

The Vega would have been a huge hit were it not for the crapola engine and horrendous labor problems at the plant that built them. Too bad they couldn't have hired the Germans to build it.

uplanderguy

Although they had labor problems at Lordstown, when tooled for the Vega, it was regarded as the most automated auto assembly plant in the world. There was sabotage during some of the strikes (line speed was an issue), but I think more than 'fit', the problem was short-cut engineering and cost savings. By '75 or '76, they were considerably better, but too late.

As a teen back then, and from a Chevy family, I always wanted a '75 GT Kammback, red with the white side stripes, stick, and roof rack. Never happened.

Consumer Reports, I remember, showed a 'better than average' repair record for the one-year-old '71 Vega...before the negatives of engine cooling and body rust reared their ugly heads. I wish I knew what they gave the '71 in its subsequent years, but I don't recall.

dieselone

I just saw an old Ferrari in Champaign, Il today with historic New Jersey plates. I believe it was a 250, but not 100% positive. It was also odd the driver had a GPS unit hanging from the windshield. I can't imagine he drove it here from the east coast. I was able to roll my window down and hear that sweet italian engine note.

berri

Maybe they were in town for the Choking (I mean fighting) Illini game! Need to bring back Chief Illiniwek - wait, they stunk then too.

fintail

Saw an 80s Renault 9 on the Autobahn today, going SLOW, like road hazard slow. In Austria spotted an 80s vintage Espace still in use. Also saw a later W126 cruising along, nice to see it can still hold its own. American cars were just a couple pickups from the past 20 years.

Also on the 'bahn, both an Avantime and a VelSatis - big weird and French.

busiris

"Although they had labor problems at Lordstown, when tooled for the Vega, it was regarded as the most automated auto assembly plant in the world. There was sabotage during some of the strikes (line speed was an issue), but I think more than 'fit', the problem was short-cut engineering and cost savings. By '75 or '76, they were considerably better, but too late. "

I completely agree.

GM took cost savings, if that's the correct phrase for what they did, to a completely new level. And, some of those "cost savings" had a major input/impact on the labor "issues" at the plant, which was, at the time the Vega came out, supposedly one of the most modern assembly lines of the time.

It's hard to take pride in your work when you see a lack of interest in the product coming from your employer...

uplanderguy

Funny thing, the Vega was far and away the 'darling' of the car mags...and not just Motor Trend. The whole thing was long-term durability...or lack of it. I'd still be OK buying a later one I think, although a lot of people like the styling of the earlier ones better.

Since Lordstown was only 40 miles from where I grew up in NW PA (and only 40 miles from where I live now, to the west of the plant), I knew people who worked there during the Vega years. One bought two new ones over the years, and one bought a new '73 and drove it for 108K miles. The Fuller Brush Man in our town bought several new ones over the years, and continued to buy the cheapo Monzas that looked like Vegas afterwards. I mentioned here before that my grandparents bought the first '71 Vega our dealer got in, but theirs had so few miles by the time they stopped driving, they didn't experience the normal issues.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but the plural of anecdote is....anecdotes....the plural isn't "evidence".

By and large, the Vega had a number of things inherently bad about it. Aside from the engine, which, if you were lucky, only proceeded to burn a lot of oil as the miles piled on, there was the question of rust---lots of rust. The Vega developed a reputation as a rust bucket within a year or two. Many front fenders were replaced.

Then there was the marginal cooling system--which only aggravated the engine problems. Once the car overheated, the pistons distorted, ate through the silica cylinder lining, and POOF---you had a 4-wheel mosquito fogger.

They sold a LOT of Vegas right off...I think about 1/4 million the first year. People liked them, even if, with 80 HP, they weren't exactly a thrill.

Basically the Vega was a shrunken-down typical American car--low on tech, but nice-looking in 3/4 form.

uplanderguy

The first year they were out (prior to net hp ratings), the engines were 90 and 110 hp. By the final year, they were rated net at 78 and 87 hp (one-barrel and two-barrel, respectively).

I agree totally on the engine and body problems; but I don't believe the rustout in one year opinions. I lived in salty NW PA and was a 'student' of Vegas at the time. Two years or more? Rust showing at top of fenders, that is for sure. Top of fender-rust was something people weren't used to in a GM, as every other model had plastic fender liners. I can recall sticking my hand up inside the front fender of a mid-year '74 model and feeling (for the first time) an inner fender. The timing of midway through '74 was confirmed later by something I read online, about a plant engineer at Lordstown.