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Comments
For it's time the G20 (at least the good ones) packed alot of features for a car of it's size. Leather, power seat, climate control, wheels, 4-wheel disc brakes, BOSE, etc were rarely found for $20,000 at that time.
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2335.shtml
However, I do feel that Chevy shoulda offered the 3.5L in the current Malibu as an option for the LT Nox. Hands down, that engine has better numbers that anything in it's class. More of a truck engine than the 3.4. If they put that 3.5 in the Nox, I'll be on the door step of my dealer tommorrow. (or I could dream for the Buick fav 3.8L rocket launcher... Nah, the 3.5 would be enough)
The NOX stacks up poorly against many other mini-SUV's too. The 05 Escape for example. There is no comparison between the NOX and most premium minivans.
The G20 was a great car for it's time. It had no competition in the relatively inexpensive luxury small car market.
1180:
In 1999 there were many "badge engineered" luxury cars. The ES300 was/is a Camry. The TL was even more closely related to the Accord. The I30 was a Maxima. Heck there were Caprices under some Cadillacs. So badge engineering must not be all that bad. Speaking of badge engineering though...Look at what GM is doing with the Trailblazer/Ascender/ Saab 9/7 / Envoy/Rainier/Bravada/not to mention the basis of the SSR. This is 2005 too. Not 1999. GM is also bastardizing the WRX by making it a Saab.
Yes I have sat in a NOX. I looked at the cheap dash. Sat on the cheap cloth, felt the cheap thin leather, pushed the rather generic looking buttons. No soft touch surfaces to be found. I'm sorry but it just felt low rent. But hey, it looks great on the outside.
As far reviews being stellar. i have yet to see a real "review". A lot of "first drive" type articles but nothing approaching a review where they really put it through the paces. Heck the Verona got good "reviews" but still places last in comparisons with its peers.
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=carnews&content_code=04846649&Search_Type- =STD&Search_ID=2104689&record=3
My test drive was great and the salesman even allowed me to drive it to my house to show my hubby who hates car shopping. The salesman even told me about the Costco option which was great because I had looked into that for a different car but they didn't have any registered dealers for that brand.
My likes pre-buying - the looks, the gas milage, the split rear bench and the peppy engine. Remember I'm comparing to my Rodeo.
My dislikes pre-buying - the light colored interior plastic -I'd prefer dark to hide my neglect of it better, the narrowness of the cargo area - although I expect to get good use because I'll be able to double stack, the lack of a tail gate - habit I guess, and no grab handles - but then I'll be driving so who cares. (Seriously on the grab handles part, can they be installed in the aftermarket?)
Expected usage - since the addition of the kid (now 4 years old) the dog has been relegated to the back of the pickup instead of the SUV. So the traditional hauling around town plus vacation miles.
Zeen, A loaded LT is pricey. I would not go much higher than a base LT or you may as well go to the next level like an Envoy or Explorer. Lease rates will come down at some point which will make the Equinox leases a little more competitive. Do you happen to remember the residual percentages on the Equinox? Congratulations on the new Volvo by the way.
Samnoe, Hopefully the Pontiac will look a lot different. I think the full size ones look too much alike. That said, we do love our Bravada.
I mean look at em. They are both FWD, independent suspensioned, unibodied boxes on wheels. One is styled a little more aggressively than the other at the cost of handling and interior space but they still do the very same job. Especially a FWD unibody ute since they have very limited offroad prowess. Apples to oranges? I'd say oranges to grapefruit.
The exterior of the NOX beats the Escape hands down. But the interior will lose a few customers though. I'll let the next comparo decide on the refinement/handling/ part though. I'd lean toward the Escape due to it's tidier proportions and more flexible drivetrain.
I doubt lease rates will come down on the NOX though. GM cars are not known for holding value so the leases are always a bad idea unless you can write the cost off. Right now the rebates have just started so a sunroof XM'ed NOX will set you back a good $24 large. But after they improve it and sell a few to Hertz you know the value is gonna plummet. Leasing is a bad idea for anything GM.
Drive an Escape back to back with an Equinox and you will see for your self the difference. The larger wheel base and better suspension on the Equinox shines over the Escape. The 5-speed shifts better and the 3.4L is as quiet if not better. I drove them both with in a week. Escape does have a better dash though.
Drive your minivan on a rocky road and you will see the difference. Also, many vans do not have AWD as an option. Sorry, your "same thing" comment doesn't wash. Vans also have WAY more room and are much bigger.
As a mom, 1 kid, who usually drives alone I would want one of the new vans that has a driver side passenger door. It's a major pain to have to use both sides of the vehicle to get you and the kid in. When there are two adults one can remove their seat belt, stand up and inch through the passageway and give the kid a cookie. A single driver would have to stop everytime, get out and go around to the passenger door, as climbing out of the driver seat isn't very easy. In my Rodeo I can reach back with one arm, never turning from the road, and put something on my kid's lap. With the Equi's pull forward back seat I expect even easier access. The 3rd seat of a van is useless for me as I don't plan on more kids or hauling that many around. Besides it only adds 2 more seats, so that 3rd seat would be taking up room in my garage.
We did consider them as we've rented 2 or 3 time but since I was in car buying mode last summer, I really thought about it during the week we had.
Sorry no van for me. Bring on the Equi.
Pros - I would like the rear door where you can just lift the glass and not the whole door.
Cons - I've seen those black on white instrument panels and don't like them. You have to take off the rear headrest to fold down the back seat. My Rodeos headrests have been sitting in a closet for 10 years because of the same reason. 90% of the owners are complainng about the gear shift lever position and the low gas milage. (Looks like the Equi will get at least 5 miles more per gallon) The cargo area cover - like most SUVs and cars it hides things from site and has no other purpose. A blanket or towell can do that.
Question for the gearheads. I read a review while searching that said tire replacement would be pricy because they were 16s. I haven't decided between the standard 16s or the extra 17s on m Equi order. Any suggestions?
Also in the brochure it says "Chains should not be used on the Equinox as they could damage the vehicle." I'll be getting the AWD version but now that the kid is old enough we will start to go skiing again and the road can get pretty icy at the top. I never used chains on the Rodeo but it has 4WD. The Equi will be my first AWD vehicle. Do other SUVs have this tire chain comment?
Most NOX's are sold as FWD wagons. Driving a FWD NOX on a rocky road (none around here in GA) would be near the same as most minivans. We do have dirt roads though. But I have been down those in a Corrolla.
Most new vans have a disappearing third seat. It never leaves the van. They have two power side doors and captains chairs in the second position. If you just WANT an SUV, that's fine. But for the most part they are interchangable in useage with the SUV having a slight advantage in off road vs. the vans onroad superiority.
Nox gets 19/25 while the Escape gets 20/25. I don't know where you got those 5 mpg less numbers.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/Suvs/escape/features/specperformance/
Here are couple compare pages..
http://www.fordvehicles.com/Suvs/escape/features/specperformance/
href="http://www.chevrolet.com/comparator/compareVehicle.do?baseV- ehicleId=10001&modelYear=2005&divisionCode=ch" target=_blank>http://www.chevrolet.com/comparator/compareVehicle.do?baseVehicle- - Id=10001&modelYear=2005&divisionCode=ch
Interior space is near a wash even though the NOX is larger on the outside.
Performance is a wash. They both advertise 8.5 seconds or so to 60.
If you want a NOX that's cool. Heck even Hyundai sells cars. But there is really nothing about it that makes it stand out from the crowd except the exterior styling. It caught my eye.
You sound pretty anti-American in your car tastes which leads me to believe you really would never have bought a NOX anyway.
Many of GM's products are built in Canada now including the Equinox. Are they anti U.S. They are passing off Korean Daewoo products off in the Chevrolet dealerships...Are they anti-American? I just don't get what you are saying. Can't American workers build NOX's? I mean really don't even go there.
I've owned over 30 vehicles in the last 9 years. There have been a few American ones scattered in there. I have to admit though, my Chevrolet Silverado was the most problematic of any of them. A new set of rotors, throttlebody, rear window, and paint job in less than 1000 miles. Anti American??? Just wary of American made crap. But the NOX is still cool-lookin'. So was my Silverado though...when I could drive it.
http://www.drivers.com/article/621/
By the way...The NOX is only AWD when it detects slippage. Over 90% of the time it's FWD....Like a minivan.
vuefor2, I think something like 90% of SUVs up here are AWD. I see some minivans with AWD also though many brands don't offer it. I personally think much of the point of an SUV is to have it for snow, wet conditions and light off roading.
http://www.aisin.com/global/index.html
I guess it's true. Ignorance IS bliss.
I am leaning toward a year wait period to see how this engine will perform. Even one year is short...
The other SUV in my list is Escape. It's been in the market for 4 years and has infamous Duratec engine in it...
Let see what will happen...
Going back to the Nox though I recommend you look at the www.chevy.com site and do the build your own car. Even better if you haven't gone too far in the car buying part is to go directly to www.gmbuypower.com and pinpoint exactly what you want. In my situation that is the LT SD option package because the step above SE has too many bells and whistles for me (Onstar and XM radio). The SD has the power seats,leater wrapped shift and steering wheel, the autodimming mirrors with temp,etc and the full body cladding which is personally important. Because I want the trailer hitch I've searched quite some time for the right one...and unfortunately (or not) I found it one which happens to be in Utah (I'm in Phoenix,AZ). The dealerships here have started to get quite a lot, the one I've visited 2x actually has 25 which seems to be the most I've heard about in the US.
Here are some reviews you might like to read as well:
Dry in your face analysis:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 37452#incentive
By far my favorite...very very in depth:
http://www.epinions.com/2005_Chevrolet_Equinox
I recommend reading mkaresh's review.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article- _id=7878&page_number=1
For your tire question, I'm going to likely follow the advice of one of the boardmembers and go for 18inch wheels. The 16s or 17s don't seem to make much of a difference other than looks.
On a side note about the Escape Duratec mentioned above, my 1996 Mercury Sable with 60,000 miles blew its Duratec engine and it was a total loss. Hopefully, that was the exception.
Zeen, Side impact air bags are real important in cars, less important in vans/SUVs because you sit up higher. Keep in mind, that test you saw on TV was trucks hitting sedans with and without the side air bags. I can see how you misunderstood though, I didn't think it was clearly stated.
Belgoboy, The epinions review is dead on with the ride, there is no better smoother small SUV on the market. I liked the steering better than him but I do agree the dash upgrade should be a priority. Over all, it's hard to beat the Equinox. It's a great truck.
joey::: SABs are nice to have, but they didn't even exist in mainstream cars a few short years ago. I think you will see them be standard on all cars soon enough. Even many vehicles with SABs are not that great in side impact from what I have read so they aren't the answer to everything. You also and more importantly need a good strong outer body.
Also very funny how quickly he threw out “but it’s made in the U.S.”. As you stated, the money goes back to Japan. And to top it all off hes a Marine vet.
The bliss of ignorance is only apparent to those unaware of their condition.
Regarding the tire chains: the statement applies to the old fashioned metal chains. The dealer said you could use one of the newer plastic or web chains. For me, I am going to try hard not to use any kind of chains. You might be better off getting a set of snow tires. I'm not sure I want to be using chains on a vehicle where the apportionment of traction to the front and rear axle is variable. It may be possible to create some damage. This is not a brute-ute with 4WD, it's a more sophisticated AWD that may require chains on all 4 wheels, or may in fact (if the dealer misspoke) not accept them at all.
Belgoboy, thanks for the links. I like the epinions site too and I think I had found one of the other ones before. That first website says they are made in Canada. I've been to Chrovolet.com a lot because it allows you to see the window sticker on the local lots. It hasn't always been up to second though.
Thanks Carsandtrucks for the discussion on tires I think we will go with the larger tires, the reviews show them as smoother riding too. And it's not like I ever put chains on my rodeo. I guess if the kid gets into skiing we'll just get studs.
Well I'm off to the no-dicker-sticker dealer, they beat out the Costco discounted one for price.
How about we focus more on the Nox features and less on country of origin issues?
Steve, Host
I don't understand....How is the "profit" from the "NOX" staying in America when most of the labor and major components are built outside of the U.S. It seems most people who wanted to "keep the money" would prefer a vehicle that has:
1. High U.S. parts content. This employs many people in the many factories which drive the "U.S." economy.
The Equinox has a 55% US/Canadian parts content.
2. Built in the U.S. An auto factory employs a whole town in many cases. Spartanburg, SC where the BMW plant was built has become a hotbed of developement. The opposite has happened around the many factories the "domestic" automakers have abandoned for parts unknown.
A factory in Canada does nothing to support the U.S. economy and those that get paid by the hour.
So even if the "profit" stays in the U.S. , that's among the stockholders as Steve pointed out. That don't put the six pack in the fridge of the blue collar guys.
I'm very aware.
I apologise to the host.
Steve, Host
But back to the Nox vs Escape mgp numbers. I found the 5 mpg diff by looking at the highway 23 mgp listed here at Edmunds for the Escape vs. the highway 27 mpg on the Nox window sticker. Also reading the reviews her on the Escape, the mpg was mentioned a lot as being low.
But good news, I don't have to order my new one. My dealer just got in the color I want with mostly the same options. With luck I'll pick it up tomorrow.
I haven't seen 27mpg anyhere for the NOX. Not even Chevy's web site.
There are many cars with well over 90% U.S. content. Some even have "foreign" nameplates.
Steve, Host
They only think their pocket, when they have slight decrease in their profit, they start laying people off.
They found a gold labor mine there.Paying way less for material and labor while keeping the same or above price level in US. Most likely, triplexing their profits.
Steve, Host
And on the topic of dividends: What about Ford owning shares of Mazda and GM's stake in Subaru?
How much of GM is owned by Japanese companies and individuals? Japan was the largest owners of US T bills for the last 20 years. Bottom line: the people costs are the most expensive part of a business, so I'd rather see a Honda engine made in Ohio where the American workers pay taxes and spend money here rather then dollars going to China with NO reinvestment back in this country.
Steve (the Host): What's the track record of Chinese cars or engines? I don't see many reviews in Edmunds to compare. It's standard fair that Japan is #1, Korea's coming up, with the rest of the far east mostly making outdated farm trucks. Maybe Briggs and Straton makes a lawn mower engine there but I don't see China as a contender in Formula one racing yet.
The 3.4L is a 20 year old design, with a documented history of some problems. Even if you think the performance is OK, the MPG numbers are poor when a FWD 250 HP V6 Vue gets 28MPG highway and the Nox only gets 25. Add the insult that the 3.4L from China is costing MORE to build then a US made V6 (translated: cost you and me more to buy). That doesn't sound like a good business or consumer value to me. I'm not buying a product that looks like a political bribe to the government of China. We started buying Datsuns, Toyota's and VW's because they were cheaper and had new/better technology and improved MPG's. Where is any of that in this engine?
I'd like to hear from actual owners and their experiences etc. like other threads on edmunds.com
Oh yeah, and he doesn't like rear brake drums either. Now thats been established we can carry on.
Any engine related problem will surface after first 3 years, I can assure you for that.