Just what is a good deal?

mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
I would like to hear from all car buyers, and prospective car buyers. Just what do you really mean when you say "I just want a good deal?"

: )
Mackabee
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Comments

  • dtwleungnycdtwleungnyc Member Posts: 188
    I don't think majority of the car buyers out there know what it is if it runs them over and back up over them.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    your boss is mad, your wife is pissed because you brought home another mini, you had to buy the whole buying family lunch, gave your customer's kid your favorite Corvette (or insert favorite car) metal model just to shut him up, bought the 7 sodas and a cup of coffee and put the floor mats, coffee cups, ballcaps and t-shirts on YOUR account in parts, then most people would think it's a good deal.

    That's after you gave away the new car and gave them $1K over retail book for their trade.

    If it's a truck, considering it's a $100 over deal, you also gave them a receiver hitch, bedliner and a bug shield.
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    is a good deal.

    Seriously though, to me if I can get a car for less than I actually paid for it then I didn't get the best deal I could.

    For example, if I buy a new Accord for $500 over invoice when they would have let it go for $100 over invoice, I don't see how that is a good deal. I know its only $400 but for that much I could get a cd-changer put into my Miata :)

    Figuring out how much the dealer will actually take for the car is the hard part.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...or perhaps it's because I've never bought a new car, but I'd be happy if:

    1. I found a car I like, equipped the way I like, and...
    2. the price was reasonable; that is, I'm not obsessed with putting the salesperson into a fit of rage or into the poor house. I don't feel like it has to be low enough to brag about, but it should in a range that I'm happy with the cost/value equation.
    3. I got reasonable financing, which given my current credit, would be quite a feat!
    4. In the end, I felt like the whole deal was pleasant; I didn't chisel or get chiseled, I liked the sales and F&I staff, got what I was promised in the time frame that was promised.
  • millspdmillspd Member Posts: 104
    I'll second what Ghulet said.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the best deal is one where you got something you liked, and don't feel afterwards like you got ripped off.

    When I buy a car, I usually just go to one of the dealers that participate in the AAA program, which is supposed to be 5% over invoice, no negotiations needed...that usually works out to about 10% under sticker, and I am happy just to not have to dicker with someone who wants to run a sales pitch on me.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • prodigalsunprodigalsun Member Posts: 213
    Intense negotiations. It's never personal with me. I try to be fair, and I educate myself thouroughly. Usually when I make it clear to the sales person I've done my research, we can get the deal pretty close to what I thought it would be. A couple hundred here or there doesn't bother me.

    The only thing I don't like during a deal is when I get lied to. Like when I was once opening negotiations with a sales person who tried to tell me that the 2K Adjusted Market Value sticker on a Mazda MPV was for Dealer prep. I would have continued to deal with him had he only told me that it was what his dealership felt the market would bear.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Yeah, that's a fib. Dealers get paid for "dealer prep" by the manufacturer.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Which cars are you talking about? 5% over invoice comes out to 10% under sticker?
    : )
    Mackabee
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
  • cwjacobsencwjacobsen Member Posts: 293
    Too bad this topic is not getting the posts and discussion it should be getting.

    For me a "good deal" can't be separated from the buying experience. It's not the dollars. It's how I felt about the experience then and afterwards.

    Craig (Isellhondas) and I agree about one thing in particular. A car is worth what it's worth. I have no trouble valuing a vehicle in relation to my wants and needs, so I'm not fixated on invoice or MSRP. If I bargain hard, it's only because the vehicle is not worth anything near MSRP to me. If I bargain easy, it's because I think the manufacturer's price is reasonable or if anything represents a bargain. If we don't get to my number, we don't do the deal. Price per se is a neutral.

    So for me a good deal is one where something happened that "delighted" me. I won't say "exceeded my expectations" because like it or not that bar's not very high when it comes to car buying.

    A bad deal is one where an otherwise good transaction is spoiled by last minute ploys or disappointments. I admit that I'm one of those weak people who will not walk out over a last minute fast one as I've already mentally purchased the vehicle. But while I may go through with the purchase, I do have a long memory.

    Finally, a no-deal is one where the ploys or playing down to type takes place early in the experience.

    CWJ
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that is the way the program is SUPPOSED to work - 5% over invoice. I have never checked the invoice, but the price has always been about 10% under sticker. That was true for both Toyotas and Subarus I bought.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    unless you've been buying Landcruisers, I could see the markup being 15%. Every other Toyota has a mark-up on 8-10%
    : )
    Mackabee
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    I think the best way to judge a good deal is after you've owned the vehicle for a good number of years. The questions one would ask: Did the vehicle serve me well? Were the maintenance costs reasonable after x number of years? Etc..etc.. This along with the buying experience would determine whether it was a good deal.
    : )
    Mackabee
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    but I have never been much of a bargainer. I am talking about the factory window sticker from Toyota/Subaru, and have never bought a car with a mark-up sticker added by the dealer.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cwjacobsencwjacobsen Member Posts: 293
    Of course living with the car is important. But now I think we're splitting hairs on the definition of deal. After the ink is dry, it's becomes did I get a good car after the deal.

    I may have totally misjudged the value of the car at the time I cut the deal. But that's MY misjudgement. I have bought new cars that at the time I considered bargains that have significantly underperformed (both Fords BTW). And then I've bought a new car where I felt I had paid "all the money," only to be pleasantly surprised at how much better than that it proved to be in the long run.

    I see and appreciate the point you're trying to make, but for me they're separable. Did I get a good deal, did I get a good car, and the relation between those two - did I get value for my money.

    CWJ
  • hingramhingram Member Posts: 24
    When I get what I want for my price. If it is a hot car that I really want, sticker is a good price because that is what I am willing to pay.

    And a good deal is the price we settle on, not the price plus some extras.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Mack,

    Determine the absolute lowest price you would accept for a vehicle, and then add 2%. That would give a price that could be called a "good deal".
  • wayside1wayside1 Member Posts: 36
    - 1 to 2 percent over invoice OTD (not counting title, tax, and tags), plus I get any rebates
    - no hassles to sell me mop-and-glow or life insurance or whatever
    - 1 hour or less spent in the dealership, which basically means the negotiations cut right to the bottom line.

    My last two cars have met this list, and as a result I never went to more than one dealership for each one.

    Trades haven't really been an issue recently, haven't had one for the last three cars I've bought, so I don't know how that factors in to a good deal.
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    so like me, you would have bought the Sienna over the Oddessey.

    I don't really look at price vs invoice as the definition of a good deal. That is a factor, but some cars are priced correctly, others have an artifically high MSRP.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    that a good deal is when no one else can buy it for less. Everything else is a rippoff.

    Just kidding. No knickers in a twist please. :^)
  • wayside1wayside1 Member Posts: 36
    I *did* buy a Sienna over an Odyssey. :)

    I compared features on them very carefully, and an Odyssey LX (at MSRP +) was a lot more expensive than the Sienna at invoice + 2% - rebate, even though they were almost identically equipped.

    In my area (Boston suburbs) it was impossible to even find an Odyssey to test-drive. And I needed a van *right away* as my old van had gotten totalled by a bus. I couldn't wait 8-12 weeks for an Odyssey to come in.
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    Mack:
    How about explaining what a good deal is from a salesperson's point of view? At the end of the day when the SM slaps your back and says "Mack, you made a lot of good deals today", what does he mean?
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Get rid of the 1 to 2 percent over invoice theory because every dealer has hidden profits and they get to keep all there holdback which is 2-5% of the total or base MRSP. But otherwise you hit it very close. You did you homework and it shows.

    Billy~
    I am a auto broker!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    far, except a little dealer bashing, but this:

    "every dealer has hidden profits and they get to keep all there holdback which is 2-5% of the total or base MRSP."

    "Hidden profits" means they're lying or cheating - neither is a very nice thing to say, especially when you mean ALL dealers.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    Please stop trying to dip into holdback :-)
  • crkeehncrkeehn Member Posts: 513
    I agree with the others that stated that a good deal is one that you are satisfied with the price you paid and that the buying experience was a pleasant one. Of course others have stated that more eloquently than I could.

    I did purchase two vehicles from the same dealer last year, both PT Cruisers. The first one I purchased, I got 3 weeks before Chrysler instituted the 7 year/100,000 mile powertrain pledge. That, and the unpleasant experience I had with the F&I man, soured the experience somewhat. It didn't change the deal I got and the very pleasant experience I had with the salesperson, however it left me feeling a bit cheated.

    A few months later, I decided to replace my other vehicle with a second PT Cruiser. My wife loved hers so much I seldom got to drive it. :-D The same dealer showed exactly what I was looking for on their online inventory so I called my salesperson again to ask about it. In the course of the conversation, I indicated my displeasure with the F&I man and the salesperson promised me it would not be a factor this time. He was right, I didn't deal with F&I at all. Any papers I needed to sign were brought to me at the salespersons desk, he knew that I had already arranged financing and would not be adding additional items.

    I found that transaction to be very satisfactory.
  • prophet2prophet2 Member Posts: 372
    I bought the Odyssey over the Sienna two years ago. The Odyssey EX @MSRP was less expensive than the Sienna XLE @MSRP by $1.5K and had many features that the Sienna totally lacked or cost extra. Even with a discount, the Toyota fell short in VALUE, however fine a vehicle it is.

    I must point out that I didn't pay ADM on the Ody (dealer offered it at straight MSRP + fees) -a "one-pencil" deal, no fuss or bother. There are advantages for building strong business relationships with car dealerships and their personnel.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    But there is profits that the average consumer can not see. The invoice IS NEVER the true cost to a dealer. All I am saying is this...a good deal is invoice not over minus all the rebates and if there is any factory to dealer incentives that the dealer wants to share with us that is just a plus. They don't have to...but if you take the time to shop dealer to dealer one of them eventually will! Not trying to keep holdback...but in reality anything over it in my opinion is just a bonus pure profit for the dealer. I am not willing to pay a dealer 2-3 G's in profit!
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    I like you zueslewis! :) Let me apologize I will not use the term hidden profit no more.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    makes a profit, to the tune of $2-3K, at invoice or cutting into holdback??

    I was going to be nice, but I must say you simply don't know what you're talking about.

    You should quit trying to sell everyone on this antiquated (that means old) notion of selling cars using a broker and stop bashing the dealers by spreading lies about their profit margins.

    Your information is completely incorrect and you should be ashamed.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    Whats wrong with auto dealers/salespeople making money anyway?After all, how are they different than anyone else? Most people tip waitresses, no one negotiates at wal mart. Fron a percentage point of view you pay much more there than at any car lot. I understand no one wants to get ripped off but isn't it fair to make money? We have mouths to feed as well.
    I believe a GOOD DEAL is a perception. if the instilled value exceeds the RETAIL COST of any product, THATS a GOOD DEAL
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    You need to read what I am saying. No I am not saying a dealer makes 2-3g's everytime. What I am saying is I am not going to give up my rebates. I get quoted all the time two to three hundred above invoice even with a rebate of 2g's. Now if I bought that car...the dealer would make holdback plus what ever over invoice plus my 2 g's in rebates and what ever else factory to dealer incentives there are. Not going to do it. And yes I do know what I am talking about and I am tired of your negativity. Your trying to make dealers out to be the good guys and some are but some will rip you blind just like some brokers will! If a dealer doesn't retain rebates even if they offer them under invoice prove it to me and I'll stop telling people that. I need to be educated just like everyone else. Good day.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Yes its fair to make a FAIR profit. And I think a FAIR profit for a dealer is his holdback depending on how much it is. But you have to realize to that your customer has a mouth to feed as well.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    give up a rebate?

    You said a couple hundred over invoice plus the dealer keeps the rebate. Why?

    Anyone, going through a broker or not, is entitled to any rebate they qualify for.

    I'm not being negative - you just appeared out of nowhere slamming EVERY dealer and EVERY salesman, saying that your broker business is the only way to buy a car without getting ripped off. That's pretty negative, and VERY wrong, as in incorrect.

    If you were a salesman before doing your broker thing, I take it you couldn't hold a gross, so it's easier to cast stones at dealers and sell cars at $100 over?

    I'm done with you on this one - you're out of your league.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Ok I am out of my league huh? Tell me something. I just requested a quote two days ago on a Chrysler Town and Country. They quoted me 150 above invoice (INCLUDING REBATES). Now there was a 2500 rebate involved. So in reality they was wanting to sale me this van for 500-600 under MRSP. I don't think so. Yes I made a great profit but now I am serving our country as a soldier and trying to make a little extra money on the side. That is what I meant by a dealer holding rebates. Because even without rebates I can buy most cars at or alittle above invoice.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    that rebate involved.

    Huah on the soldier thing. 10 years in the Air Force, mostly deployed to "forward operating locations" with a DOD squad. 10 years in the car business after that.

    You should never slide a rebate if it's out there.

    I always (when it fleet) gave my quote minus the rebate - it's a "customer cash incentive" not dealer money.

    Sorry about the "league" comment. You came out swinging and I think some of the things you're saying are incorrect. That doesn't mean that with help from some of the dealer folks here, you can't get a few avenues to get around any quote and rebate problems you may be having.

    It's just that after 2 years here and getting bashed from both sides: the consumers don't like some of the things I say because I'm ex-car business and the salepeople don't like it because I'm a dealer fraud investigator.

    Did you do any time in the car business?
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    The only way to buy a car is to either do your homework and know how dealers operate before you go into a dealership or hire SOMEONE who does. Whether if its another dealer, your friend, your dad, you best friend or a broker. You have several options to choose from. Just make sure you pick the right one because it could cost you thousands. Now if dealers gave great deals all the time why is a majority of people always upside down in there car? Why doesn't dealers pay trade in value instead of wholesale. Dealers just like anyone else that is trying to sell a product is out to make money. Now I am done with you to! Good day.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    Most educated consumers can get a domestic at a bit over invoice LESS rebates, for a below invoice deal on the whole.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Sorry! Yes I have spent some time in the car business but didn't like the selling my own cars side of it. I have currently spent ten yrs in the Air Force as well. I work for Awacs. Can you tell me what I am saying that is incorrect? Because there is alot of opinions out there and I am sure I have been reading some of them. Let me know. Thanks.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93


    Because most folks only want to PAY wholesale when the trade is resold. . . Not to mention the beating used car values have taken due to new car incentives.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    How come dealers still insist on giving a quote at invoice when there is dealer rebates or incentives involved? My question is this! Don't you think that is trying to maximize profits?
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    trade-in value WAS wholesale value.

    FYI, maximizing profits, per se, is the goal of every business. It's why you don't charge $10 for your services. Assuming you intend to turn a profit with your broker business. I'm sure that if your customers were perfectly happy paying $500, that is what you would charge. Your rate is probably just below what you've found that your customers would object to paying. That is maximizing your profits.

    Another question. It sounds like you just solicit quotes from different dealers. If you know what a good deal is (you said you did) why wouldn't you just present this amount as an offer on behalf of your customers? Can you, in good conscience, let your customers accept a deal if it is above what you "know" a good deal to be?
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    You hit it on the head with maximizing profits. But businesses doesn't need to maximize profits at the consumers expence. That is why American's are so in debt now a days. 1. Customer stupidy for getting themselves into the mess and 2. Companies charging $600 when it only took $50 to make it. You can negotiate anything if you want. I try to negotiate prices on anything I buy! Walmart, JCPennies anything. Does it work always? NO but sometimes it does saving me more money. But no I wouldn't charge that. Honestly. I would rather have mulitiple business than get one good kill every now and then. Yes I do solicit quotes from dealers and that is how I weed out the honest one's from the not so honest. Every time I solit I will always have one or two or more send me a quote that is on target. I never let my customer accept an offer I think is not in there best interest. Hopes this answers your question.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    what I was saying was incorrect is where you said that all dealers make big profits on a deal at invoice. I wrote many a deal where we busted into holdback and stepped up too far on a trade, resulting in a $100 net loser deal. Hopefully the F&I guys can pull a $100-200 flat fee to break us into the black.

    Sure, the law of averages will bring the gross profit numbers up, but dealers don't make $3K every deal like people think.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    <<How come dealers still insist on giving a quote at invoice when there is dealer rebates or incentives involved?>>

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd quote prices without rebates when incentives are an either/or proposition, i.e. rate or rebate. I personally feel it's misleading to quote a price with the rebate applied when you know your customer is more interested in the financing incentives like 0%. I always tried to make it clear to folks though that they'd still get their rebate if that was the option they chose.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Businesses don't need to maximize profits at the customer's expense?

    As I said before, you could charge $10 for your services. But instead, you charge $200 (I believe that's what you said). Who's pocket is that extra $190 coming from? The Government's? Your next door neighbor's? I think you'll find that if you actually think about it, you'll find that you maximize your profits at your customer's expense. How could it be any other way?

    Another question. Do you send out emails and then recommend whoever provides the lowest quote? Do you negotiate with the dealer at all? And assuming you've thrown out all the quotes you feel are too high, how do you know that with a little negotiating they couldn't end up much lower than anyone else? By throwing out initial high quotes it just sounds like you are avoiding doing the negotiating work that people are paying you to do.

    Also, is your service based solely on selling price? For example, if a dealer that you know has a terrible reputation for service gives you the lowest price will you still recommend that your customer buy from them?
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    On a average what can one expect a factory to dealer incentives that they won't share be below invoice? For example....in your yrs of being in the business do you think my client paid to much for his Honda Odyssey 03. He paid 200 above invoice. No cash back no incentives. He did get a military discount.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    same deal on a Dodge Grand Caravan, though would be $200 over invoice, minus the $3,000 rebate, for a net price to the customer of $2800 under invoice.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    First of all I send out emails or fax companies that I have had great experiences with in the past first. Honest dealers...if they don't want to hit my target price then I look elsewhere. So far I have had no negative feedback about any of the dealers that I choose to work with. But when your buying a new car nothing says you have to take your car to that dealer for service. Next yes I do negotiate. Even if they are in my target. I never ask for the college rebates or the military rebates until I am almost done negotiating. Then to top it all off I will show up at the dealership with my customer to try to maxamize more savings. Warranties, add ons, I have even caught one dealer adding an extra $350 into the contract price. But yes I do weigh all my options when contacting and approching a dealer to get the best price possible. So Houston you can come back down now. I have felt like I have been fighting Mohammad Ali all day today. :)
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