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Just what is a good deal?

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Comments

  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    But you ain't no Wright brother. The Wright brothers actually did something.

    It sounds like mister autohunter believes that a good deal is determined by the profit made by the seller and whatever some third-party books say.

    Let's say a used car manager takes 2 identical car in on trade. The first one comes in for autohunter's "correct" book value of $10,000. The 2nd one involved a guy buying an old stock new vehicle so they had to put $11,000 into the trade to get the new car deal.

    Now these two identical used cars both get sold for $13,000 - also the "correct" figure from autohunter's book. Did one buyer get ripped off because the dealer made $1000 more on his deal?
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    I do not think you can say that you can say if you could get the car for any less money unless you consider my local market conditions, and the market conditions when I purchased the car.

    With that said, I also do not think cost alone defines a good deal. The deal was easy for me. And the salesman helped me understand the car's features, and determine which car was right for me. I got a good deal. Period.

    But if you must know, the car sold for $200 under invoice in the DC area. It is a Toyota Camry LE with Auto. I am sure if I took Cliffy's number, and brought it to another dealer, they would have beat the price by $50 or $100 dollars...but it would have been 4 more hours of my time. Four horus of my time is worth more than $100 dollars!
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    Frankly, it is not my concern if the dealer makes a profit. I am not saying the dealer should not make a profit; rather, it is not my concern. I want to get a good value while still being able to look at myself in the mirror....(in other words, I do not want to have to compromise my values).
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    No, my last name is not Wright but you don't know what I do. You also don't know the future or whether my idea would do what I believe it would. For all you know, I could have an IQ like Einstein or might own my own business (after leaving the field of engineering) or even be CEO of a major corporation. I said I was an engineer but I might be a NASA engineer for all you know. I do have 7 patents registered with the US Patent Office. You have no clue so that wasn't a fair statement.

    Please don't make derogatory comments about people you don't know.
  • stubborn1stubborn1 Member Posts: 85
    I felt I have always gotten a good deal when I purchased my vehicles, regardless of the price. To me, a good deal is when I walk out of the dealership and don't second guess my decision.

    Back in 1996, I was fresh out of college and wanted a car to replace my college beater. I went in and bought a Cavalier at MSRP minus the cash back minus a $1000 mercy allowance for my trade. In hind sight, I got beaten like a red headed step child. To me at the time, I got a good deal. The salesperson was friendly, F&I person helped a lot with getting me financing, and I had an overall good feeling when I left the dealership.

    Last year when I bought a vehicle, I had been doing research on Edmunds for months. I knew what invoice pricing was and knew the market conditions for the vehicle. I bought at $200 over invoice. The salesman was friendly, the process took about an hour, and I left with the same good feeling about the deal.

    To me, I got a good deal in both of these situations. I don't care what others paid for their deal as long as I feel good about mine.

    On a side note, I am very much against fixed pricing from dealerships. Why should someone who has done their research and knows current market conditions be forced to pay the same price as Joe Public who blindly walks into a dealership and buys a car without being prepared?
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    ..."Please don't make derogatory comments about people you don't know"...

    That act has been present in the majority of your posts - and you call someone else for it?

    You've been very, very negative about anyone in the car business. Please don't think you won't get some return fire - you started it.
  • abtsellerabtseller Member Posts: 291
    he might very well be Einstein, or he could be the owner of a buy-here-pay-here car lot.

    Or, he could be jeffmusts evil twin brother.

    So, how is the weather today, Zues? Mack? Cliffy?

    :)

    Ed
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    since I'm working inside all day - no inspections!
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Don't take it the wrong way. I just said you're no Wright brother. It's obvious you have the IQ of Einstein.

    Be sure to let us know how that business goes.

    "Let's say I own a Ford dealership and I have 1 Taurus loaded with options and my price is $25,251. If Joe comes in, that's what he pays. If mary comes in, that's what she pays. If Larry comes in, that's what he pays. Larry may say, "I can get a Taurus with all the same options at Joe Schmoes for $24,900." Then you say, "Please go to Joe Schmoes and buy it then."

    "It amazes me how few salesmen actually know how to run a successful business. Some can't even understand a simple model of a good business. Well, maybe they just refused to try to understand. People often discount quickly that which they can't understand"
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    ...Or Epstein? Horshack maybe? ;-)
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    does this discussion keep going in circles with the same people day after day? It's simple, if I'm the buyer, a good deal is one I walk away from without "buyers remorse" I get a good product for a good price. That brings up another question, how would you explain a "good deal" if you are looking at a not so good product. ie. KIA, MITSUBISHI(0-0-0 till 2004) sounds good but what position are you in when you actually START making pmts?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    ...if you intend to keep the car until it's paid off. So basically if you take a 5 year term that doesn't start for a year, make sure you intend to keep that car for 6 years! I guess also if you started trying to pay the balance down right away instead of waiting till '04, or had something you KNEW you could put the money into that would return a good rate, it might work. Mitsu doesn't make anything that turns me on enough to try it, though!
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Got a sprinkling of snow last night but today is nice and sunny, not too cold. Previous customer of mine having their car serviced, got an excellent deal as they keep coming back. Asked me for a loaner so they can do some errands. Live about two hours from here. In the market for a car for their older son. Couple is in their early seventies and pleasant as can be. I don't do loaners for everyone.
               &nbs- p;           &n- bsp;       : )
               &nbs- p;           &n- bsp;       Mackabee
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It sounds like you mean well...but your advise is off the mark a bit. I get the feeling you haven't been doing this very long.

    You spent FOUR MONTHS looking for the car you wanted at a price you wanted to pay.

    For most people, their time is far more valuable than that. If they pay a bit more than what you think is "FAIR", they really don't care. These people have jobs, families and hobbies.

    You talk about "private party" pricing and how nobody should pay a dealer any more than that and preferably less.

    Well, I don't know what "private party" pricing really is. The books we use don't have a catagory for that. Most of the private sellers I run into seem to think that the Kelly or NADA retail is pretty close to what their car is worth.

    A private party seller has very little responsibility when selling a used car unlike a dealer. For all the buyer knows, the brake pads and rotors need to be replaced, the timing belt is overdue for replacement, and there is low compression on one cylinder.

    Heck...the seller probably doesn't even know this!

    It's not uncommon for a dealership to spend 1500.00 or more in reconditioning surprises!

    As an "auto broker" you should already be aware of this!
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    I MIGHT consider it on a honda or toyota, somthing that will hold up. To make matters even worse the local mitsu. dealer is doing a baloon note on top of the 0-0-0. I would hate to total out that car out without gap insurance. especially considering a mitsu. loses about HALF its value in the 1st year. I guess repeat business isn't what their banking on.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    First, Zues get over it! I have no contact information listed. No I haven't researched the QX4s. But I will. Now a good deal to me is 1% over invoice - rebates and incentives - holdback -any factory to dealer cash that I can TRY to get out of them - adv fee and doc fee. What I usually end up getting 1% or actual invoice - incentives and rebates - adv fees and usually no more than $30 for doc fees. Dealer keeps holdback and whatever else incentives that I couldn't get out of them that is not made public! On higher end vehicles I can usually get semi or close to invoice if there is no incentives on it - ad fees and low doc fees. Is this better than what you guys pay? Sounds like it! But why people hire me is so they don't have to mess with dealers like yourself! Its called convienance! Plus I can get my customers gap insurance for $120 which is alot less than a dealer will sell it and I can get great deals on warranties! And yes good deal does mean good price and great service. But I would rather put up with a arrogant salesmen and save more money. No reason to pay someone extra just because their nicer to me!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    b) advising you about advertising may save you a nastygram from the hosts.

    c) any warranty you get, unless it's backed by the manufacturer, is a disservice to your client.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    You are what we call a 20 percenter. I believe in the system of averages, 20 percent of people think they no more about the business than the people ACTUALLY IN IT! the other 80% will listen to reason, and normal people will pay more for good service. I guess what your saying is you would buy from someplace that you know won't service the car well, or follow up to make sure all is good. Or even try to find the least expensive car that fits all your wants/needs. all you care about is who is dumb enough to sell you a car and make next to no profit, front or back.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Has been booted out of a car dealership.

    They do need to tread lightly. Word travels quickly...
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    You said you are on active duty in the USAF. Do they know you are moonlighting doing what you are doing?
               &nbs- p;           &n- bsp;  : )
               &nbs- p;           &n- bsp;  Mackabee
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Used a good deal to me is no more than half way between private party and trade in values. A really good deal is trade in value maybe $150 over. That is a good deal. Its funny that most of you are car dealers or car experts and when you tell people that a good deal is what ever they pay for it Edmunds should ban you for it like zues says they should ban me. But we live in America "Born to be free"!
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    Yes they do!
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    if you are getting these people such great deals why dont you just start a class like "how to buy cars". Yes we are born free, but the economy isn't and with too many people like you it would crash. How would the economy work if nobody made a decent profit, reguardless of the industry.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I was under the impression that Mitsubishi was offering no payments until 2004, at which point you'd have a 5 year loan at 0%? Maybe I got the figures mixed up. I remember awhile back after the year was up it converted to a 5 year loan at 9.9% or something stupid like that.

    If I knew it would hold up, I'd be tempted if it were indeed a 0% loan once the payments kicked in after a year. I didn't even think about the insurance though...totalling one of those things after one year and not having made a payment sounds scary indeed!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Did you read my post # 323?

    The other car guys will be happy to back me up on this one. A "broker" needs to be an asset to both sides.
  • autohunter1autohunter1 Member Posts: 31
    start my own how to buy a car clinic! Cause none of you guys would teach the consumer the truth. An asset to both sides! I am an asset to both sides. To the dealer...I have a client ready to make you some cash. To my client....I am dedicated to getting you the best deal possible. To both...I am dedicated to getting a FAIR profit and price to both sides. You guys just don't want to except that. And another thing. A salesmen in here said that words travel fast and he could ban me from dealerships. Same goes on my side my word is powerful in the minds of my clients and I can and will direct them away from unworthy dealers. I have met only two dealerships so far and I have banned them both. I only deal with honest dependable dealers and you can talk to anyone of them and they will tell you that I am honest and dependable as well. I have very good ties with them. They automatically know that I am after a fair deal and I will take my business somewhere else and they respect that. It is not like I am asking for the impossible and I don't! I only ask for a fair deal and none of you can seem to understand that except for the nice words that bigorange gave me the other day! I am done and have a good day.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    A "broker" Should be fair to the dealers as well. Granted they work for the customer but sooner or later dealers will get tired of you trying to beat them up all the time. And if someone would pay a dealer what they pay you they CAN buy cars themselves.
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    where I PERSONALLY attacked an INDIVIDUAL without provocation. I will certainly defend myself but I do not attack and individual that hasn't attcked me first. If you say that I did without evidence, it is a lie. If you could produce the proof, I would apologize. Otherwise, don't perpetuate and support the perception that I am talking about.

    I don't see what autohunter does as advertising. I have already bought my car and just wanted to know if using a broker would have saved me money so that I can consider that in the future. That is not personal advertising for him but for his profession.

    If what I am saying is not true, why do these kinds of sources exist:

    http://beatthecarsalesman.com/secrets.html

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/19/1040174345151.html

    http://www.stp.uh.edu/vol62/29/OpEd/op2/op2.html

    As the second link states, the survey found that car salesmen were the least trustworthy profession in the nation. This was just published last month. Like I said before, I have a perception that seems to be shared by the nation. Do you have sources that say its not true?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Didn't the majority of Americans in the 50's support... oh nevermind. A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong can they?
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    What is the purpose of your post #317? Why are you just quoting one of my posts? I did post it and still believe that to be true. I work with salesmen who cut prices to the point that we actually lose money because if they don't, the competition will get the business. Why does that make sense? Why can't salesmen have a little more discipline to keep that price up so that the company can stay in business? Can you really make up for a price that is less than cost by just selling more product? Doesn't that just make you lose more money?
  • abtsellerabtseller Member Posts: 291
    supposed to snow some tomorrow. I can't wait to give some good deals on some 4wds.

    Ed
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    When you sell 300+ units per month one loser deal kind of gets lost in the wash, on the other hand in order to sell those kind of #s you can't be doing people wrong either
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    even though it was cold. There's a new car wash down the block with DROP DOWN DOORS(!!) for washing when it's cold and windy. THAT is a good deal.
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    but what if its more than one? If you do that once don't develop a habit of it being ok to do that? Does it (selling at or below cost) really just happen on 1 out of 300/month? My experience is that it is much more than that. Isn't it just a self-perpetuating thing. You do it once and it becomes more and more expected leading to a lower baseline profit for the dealer and dealers in general.

    Edmunds has a great article here

    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html

    Wasn't Edmunds created to inform consumers so that they don't get taken advantage of by dishonest car salesmen like the excerpt below suggests.

    "Since the advent of the Internet, and the tremendous effect it has had on the way people buy and sell vehicles, we've been hearing much about how the retail side of our industry has been utterly transformed. The way spokespeople from the National Automobile Dealer's Association (NADA) tell it, dealers are kinder and gentler, treating people with respect and intelligence, because they know more consumers than ever are conducting research online, educating themselves so that they can make a good deal on a new or used car."

    They indicate that honesty has increased and maybe it has. Why did this have to happen so get them to be more honest? Are they now among the most honest professionals, I don't know. I guess time will tell.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    Do you think you paid too much...just kidding. LOL. There is LOTS of profit in a car wash, I admit it is a great idea to have doors, cold wind and a pressure washer don't mix well.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    Once again, volume selling has its ups and downs, and you do have to take some "short" deals to make it work out. We do sell cars for a little less than I would like sometimes, but when we hit 110% of our sales objective we get compensated enough to make up for it all...it all gets lost in the wash. The year end bottom line works out fine. I guess selling in volume means that you sell more cars to make basically the same $ but you also can bet on a BUNCH of repeat business. That makes the job a lot easier. Especially when you are actually APPRECIATED by your customers.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Considering the 1/2" of salt and junk on my car, along with mud from the road near my house, I think I got off cheap. Another good deal.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    other car wash, GREAT DEAL!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    out my opinion, here's what I feel a good deal is:

    The customer has to feel like he/she was treated fairly and got a "bargain" (define using your own terms) on the new or used vehicle. The dealer has to make a fair profit, higher on some vehicles and lower on others and more than anything, a relationship has to result.

    The new owner wants a place that will repair any problems that crop up, treat them with respect, etc, and the salesperson is hoping the customer is pleased enough with the deal where he'll send in referral business, a source the salesperson relies on.

    If a car deal ends with either side or both raising cane about the deal, with bad feelings as a result, then the cheapest price on the new car and the best trade-in value possible won't make anyone feel better.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    Sounds like you have the same mindset as our GM!!
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    I guess part of that is that I didn't have to trade my old car in. Another part of that is the dealer and/or type of car I was buying (Infiniti). The part I feel the best about is the service department. I don't know how much money they made off of me and would probably be upset if I did. I do believe that these guys are one of the many exceptions to the general experience of Americans today. I don't believe the whole industry is like this (based on other dealership/manufacturer interactions of myself and friends) but they seem to know how to treat the customer at my dealership.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    You sound like the 80% that I referred to earlier, People will treat you right if you do the same. Here we take it a step further, We have done some mds research and try not to "treat others like you want to be treated" the way I like to be treated and the way you like to be treated might be different, we try to treat people the way THEY want to be treated. Thats how you get to be a volume dealer to start with.
  • atlantabennyatlantabenny Member Posts: 735
    i'm relatively new to car-buying here in the us, having moved from overseas 6 years ago.

    needing a vehicle upon arrival, i immediately purchased publications about "smart car-buying," with all, including consumer watchdog "consumer reports," recommending strategies and techniques to get as near to invoice as possible but conceding a few hundred for dealer profit.

    question is, is "getting the best deal" a consumer reaction to hideous (it seems) over-pricing practices by car dealers in the past ?

    even if it is now consumer over-reaction, wouldn't all a dealer/salesman has to do is decline an unreasonable customer counter-offer instead of claiming something short of "customer brutality" during negotiations ?

    lastly, out of 10 customers, how many are so prepared that they can drive prices down against a "helpless" dealer ?

    appreciate your comments. thanks.
  • chortonchorton Member Posts: 149
    Just don't worry about the opinion of the dealer, I don't mean be rude. But do what YOU feel is right. And keep trying untill you find a dealer that will do that, dont be afraid to ask to speak to the sales manager if the salesperson is not treating you right. as far as what you should pay, that depends on what kind of car and the availability of that make/model/color ect. let me know if you have more Q's
  • dustidusti Member Posts: 36
    if the buyer pays the most he/she's willing...
    (what the buyer believes the car is worth to him/her) then that's a good deal for both sides in the perspective of those attached to the car selling retail industry.

    understandable.

    but me being unattached ...

    before i belly up to the trough, i'm going to put some effort in trying to buy at the least some dealer out of a pool of dealers is willing to sell - irrespective of what i think it's worth.

    and probably most others unattached to this industry that read this board are going to do the same.

    and a good deal to me is doing it.
  • atlantabennyatlantabenny Member Posts: 735
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    I have a customer who bought a 50th Anniversary Edition Vette at sticker. Happy with purchase at the time, even happier after attending some Vette owner events and having people ask him how much OVER MSRP he had to shell out.

    You know. . . I think he got a good deal. He thinks he got a good deal. Others might disagree. . .(What am I talking about "might???" Someone is bound to preach about how I ripped him off.) But considering how many of the 50th editions did roll out at a premium, he did fine.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Corvettes, except the base model fixed head coupe (non-hatchback). Period.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    There are occasional exceptions. . . We were going to give my customer a $750 discount on an order, but had problems getting his configuration manufactured. Eventually, he opted to cancel order and go for the 50th.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    A base Cavalier 5-speed, that's a different story.
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