Just what is a good deal?

masspector

Sorry on the loss. Mine is dear to me too. supershops had a no return policy, period? I did not know that. I guess i should have read that better before I bought there.

chorton

chorton

Now how do I find the FAQ's on the home site????

zueslewis

intake manifolds, carbs, fuel line, fuel pumps, cams, valvetrain stuff, etc - all designed to make you go fast. Once you bought it, you own it.

Of course with normal things like tires and wheels, I had latitude for policy adjustments and the like.

I do seriously miss my dog - German Shepards are brilliant animals and mine especially had more personality and intelligence than most humans.

mirth

Mack, the extra characters in your post are being caused by the spell checker. I think it might be due to the new Edmunds format.

andre1969

...I'll see something like &8217 where there would normally be an apostrophe. Is that a spell-checker thang, too?

mirth

Yeah, most likely. It's caused by Edmunds dealing with characters it doesn't understand. For example, some browsers might enter a "backwards" apostrophe and some might enter a "forward" apostrophe, but Edmunds might only recognize one of those...

mackabee

Sorry about your dog man. I had a black lab that was gone a few years back and I miss her. Been thinking of getting another one. Dogs are man's best friend.
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                         Mackabee

mackabee

The &nbs-p; 's are gone!
                     Mackabee

zueslewis

mackabee

It's blustery cold! We got some snow last night and this morning but VDOT was prepared so the roads were in pretty good shape this morning. Unlike Tuesday night when they were caught with their pants down with some unexpected snow. Wednesday morning we must have had close to 200 fender benders on the expressways. That wil be good for business (unfortunately for the people involved in the fender benders). Usually brings lots of work to the body shop and some trickles over to the sales department. Schools were closed today, city offices and such. I came in at noon today so didn't have to worry about driving conditions. That MR2 is sure fun on icy roads though, fishtails all over the place if I'm not careful!
                          : )
                         El Mackabee

cliffy1

A good deal is when the value to the consumer exceeds the selling price. Period.

Now, the trick comes to what is valued by a particular customer. One customer may place value on how much or little the dealer "makes" on the deal. Others may place value in being shown the features of the car. Others may place value in convenience. What is of value to one person may have no value to the next. Therefore, two people who buy the exact same car and they paid $1000 different may both have gotten good deals. The guy who paid more may have walked in not knowing about certain features the guy wanted and therefore was willing to pay more than the other guy.

What is a good deal can only be answered in economic terms and that is value exceeding price. The real question here is what consititues value. That is something I can't answer for you and you'd better not try to answer for me.

sergeym

If the offer has been accepted immediately does it mean that I offered too much? I recently tried to help my sister-in-law with buying a new car. She was interested in a Nissan Maxima GLE. I've got carsdirect.com price, subtracted $300 (that's what they making I guess) and e-mailed this offer to 3 closest Nissan dealers. 2 of them accepted the offer and confirmed the options and availability. Now she thinks that my offer was too high since it was accepted so readily.

zueslewis

most internet managers at dealerships have set pricing and based on your research, you're obviously right in the ballpark. They jumped on it because they want your business.

bigorange30

You could probably get another $200-300 out of one of the ones that accepted. They would do that easily to beat out the other. Otherwise your offer looks like a decent one if I compare the carsdirect price of $24,700 to Edmunds TMV of $25,200. I have seen Edmunds TMV to be just a touch on the high side on average.

mackabee

So you guess they are making $300.00 so you "subtract it" from your offer. Why? You don't think a dealership is entitled to make $300.00?
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                              Mackabee

bobst

If two of the three dealers immediately accepted your offer, then you probably could have bought the car for less.

Don't feel bad. You were nice to do your sister-in-law a favor, and you did what you thought was in her best interest. If she complains, tell her to buy the car herself next time.

zueslewis

What kind if goofy logic is that??

The dealer is trying to sell cars. If you contacted their internet or fleet person and the offer you gave matches what they would sell the car for, or was a little less than their "norm", why wouldn't they accept? They want to sell you a car!

This side of the discussion is ridiculous. You folks are making it harder and harder to do business with dealers.

Even when a dealer does EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, which is accept a low profit offer, you'll still sit back without committment, him and haw, and take another month to make a decision. Give me a break.

mackabee

Now that I'm doing the internet sales, I'll get credit approvals from TFS on customers that apply online. I'll call the customer to come in and pick out their car and they'll say: "Oh, we don't want to buy one. We just wanted to see if we could get approved" HUH? Then what's the point?
                                 ; )
                                 Mackabee

isellhondas

I'll never tell in these forums. If you e-mail me I will.

cliffy1

Ever heard of a courtesy bump? It doesn't work very well over e-mail but it works like a charm in the dealership. If a customer ever did make me an offer before I could start things (see Inconsiderate buyers to see why I don't let customers start price negotiations) and the first offer they gave was one we could live with, I would almost never accept. If I did, I knew from bitter experience that the customer would feel like they left money on the table and back up from their offer, just like this guy is doing. I would come back with, "Well sir, we are very close. Another $150 wouldn't kill the deal would it?" I made the amount small so the guy could justify bumping. It made him feel like he really got us to the last dollar because we would not accept his offer. It also allowed me wiggle room in case he was inflexible.

I coined the term "courtesy bump" for this situation. I bumped them a small amount so they felt like they won and had not over-offered.

bigorange30

It's certainly not goofy logic to think that if they accept your first offer, you probably offered too much. Cliffy has a good point. Negotiating is all a game of psychology. I have bought and sold 5 houses and its the same way. Anytime I make an offer on a house and they accept it right off, I feel that I offered too much. Unfortunately, an offer on a house is binding to the buyer when he offers it not after it is accepted. You cannot back out once it is accepted. Its strange how an offer a car dealer makes seems to be binding but one a buyer proposes is not. It sounds like cliffy has the right idea with his "courtesy bump".

zueslewis

I've used a courtesy bump myself, but when you guys are screaming for complete and total honesty in a car deal and no hassles, just the "one shot" best price and things like that, isn't a "courtesy bump" lying?

But now, after all the grief you've given me, you say it's OK to mislead the customer?

Which side of the fence are you on, or are you straddling the middle, so everyone's wrong?

Don't mean to mess with you Cliffy, just an example.

cliffy1

Gotcha.

The courtesy bump didn't work on e-mail leads. I figured I only had one shot with them. If I could do it, I told them because I figured somebody else would as well. My only shot was to be the first guy to say yes and hopefully come up with some other reason to choose me over the other guy such as good service or location or something else.

zueslewis

I always went for a bump when given an offer - it's just more money to bring to the boss or at least it shows that there's nothing below what they offered so they don't hit you up afterwards.

There's a close relationship between lying, psychology and negotiation - some people hold back or give more depending on the words and mannerisms you use.

bobst

Sure, "it's OK to mislead the customer". We are ready for any stunts you want to pull.

I think a "courtesy bump" is fine. Of course, I would never fall for it, but I have no problem if you want to try it.

After I have made an offer, all I want to hear is a 'Yes' or a 'No'. If I don't hear an explicit 'Yes', then I assume the answer is 'No', and I am out-a-there.

zueslewis

pulled any "stunts" and I certainly don't appreciate the jab. You don't know me.

Please remove my name from the list you've made of sleazy car guys - I'm not one now, and I wasn't when I was in the business.

I fired salespeople on the spot who pulled "stunts" with customers and I showed customers the door who had pulled "stunts" with my people.

thel

"did I pay too much?" The answer will always be yes on an internet forum.

Can anyone remember someone asking this question and the responses were posts like "oh boy, the dealer really lost money on that one" or "golly gee, I think that was a great deal".

My point is, if you want to know if you paid too much, do your research and decide for yourself rather than asking a bunch of strangers that weren't there and aren't buying the car for themselves.

zueslewis

I never really thought about it like that.

I see guys here all the time who'll say "I could have done better" or "the dealer ripped you off". Evidently they have low self esteem and are full of poop, simultaneously.

KCRam

Any questions or comments about the site redesign should be posted in Town Hall New Look!.

Prodigal: the hosts enjoyed the parody, but we felt a little left out LOL

It's freezing here in the mountains of northwest NJ (hit minus-1 at 7am today), but this is not weather.com (hint)

Carry on and play nice

kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and FWI Message Boards

bigorange30

You showed your colors to me when you said this about me in post #228:

"We can't even say the word that describes the white grainy substance eaten in Oriental dishes, but folks can say salespeople are ALL liars, thieves and peddlers of evil - I don't get it."

This was a lie since I never said that. As far as cliffy's "courtesy bump" suggestion, I don't consider it a lie but a place to start the negotiation. If haggling has to be the way, then car salesmen will never be assumed to be totally honest. Any time you go into a negotiation with ANYONE (not just car salesmen), you better have your guard up for someone that might try to take more than they should because there are too many people out there who will. Negotiations are just that way by nature. After a long time relationship is built, it can be different but with someone you don't know you better not let down your guard.

bigorange30

for me to know that it was referring to me. You didn't need your name mentioned in Prodigalsun's parody for you to know he was referring to you. Neither did I. I was the only one saying anything about this when you posted it. It was just part of the piling on that was happening.

zueslewis

you don't offend anyone and risk someone responding to you calling them names, do you?

What if I said all engineers were calculator toting geeks? They can't add 2 plus 2 without using x & y in the formula? That would be an unfair accusation and generalization. I've been pursuing my engineering degree and just completed it last month and I don't even carry a calculator.

I have a real problem with the blanket statements that ALL car business people use drugs, lie, cheat and steal. It gets old and also, I consider it uncool remarks made towards a particular group - that unfair wording against a particular group is supposed to be against Edmunds policy, but it doesn't get enforced, in my opinion.

bigorange30

I only said that more exist amongst car salesmen than in other professions. Other professions like lawyers and advertising have a similar reputation. Any profession that involves much negotiation where ALL the cards are not laid on the table (and who lays ALL their cards on the table in a negotiation?) is bound to get that kind of reputation.

BTW: I don't have a problem with the way you classified engineers because many are like that. I often do carry a calculator.

mackabee

"more exist amongst carsalesman than in other professions" And on what data do you base this assertion?
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                        Mackabee

bigorange30

both personal and friends and relatives.

prodigalsun

Having been an engineer, a vp of engineering, and a Sales person, I can say that I have found an equal level of dishonesty in both professions, and thankfully, it's been pretty small.

I've found that some salesmen, usually motivated by fear sometimes will gloss over product shortcomings, color facts, and yes will lie. They are generally not the best or most successfull sales people. The best sales people I've worked with know that providing top service to customers is the real secret of success.

Engineers lie too. While managing engineers, I've found that some will try to manipulate product development decisions not based on what is good for the company, but more based on what is fun or easiest to do. This intellectual dishonesty is not as in your face as it would be in a retail sales experience, but it is no less slimy or disingenous.

So, I think that dishonesty is in all occupations, but does not make up the majority of practitioners in any one job.

prodigalsun

I won't overlook our benevolent overlords next time, I assure you!

bigorange30

in my business. Engineers have no incentive to lie. I am certainly not saying it doesn't happen but just that there is not near the incentive that there is in sales. Many times we are asked to by salesmen though. I just look at myself as an educator that provides information. Sales and management just have to decide what to do with and about the information I have provided and the data I collect. I do make recommendations but that is all I can do.

prodigalsun

When you are motivated by selfishness or fear. Big Orange, if your an engineer, you know about the crazy money that was flying around for truly wacky ideas.

I took over a development organization for a high tech company where the product was 9 months off schedule, and the company was bleeding red. As I dug into the schedule overruns, I discovered that my engineering manager and his design team created and developed a proprietary protocol for transfering files from our site to our clients site. It took them 7 months to do this. My first question to him was, Why didn't you just use FTP, a protocol that as you know has been around for 30+ years. His reply? "Ours is a more elegant solution." Elegant, yes, but provided no additional value. And he knew it.

Can you guess what happened in the next round of layoffs?

sergeym

"By they" I meant CARSDIRECT.COM. For me they are just a "middle man" and I offered dealers the same amount I believed CRASDIRECT.COM would. The problem here is that I was asked by my relative to find a way to avoid haggling and now she feels uncomfortable that there was no hard negotiation taken place. By sending another e-mail with lower price I would essentially start the haggling process over the Internet but it does not make much difference from my point of view. I also do not feel comfortable retracting the offer after it has been accepted.

landru2

"The problem here is that I was asked by my relative to find a way to avoid haggling and now she feels uncomfortable that there was no hard negotiation taken place."

mackabee

The internet sales was designed so to speak to avoid "haggling". It is very "uncouth" to get an internet managers "no haggler, rock bottom price" and then start haggling.
                          Mackabee

bigorange30

Even though I think you may have offered just a touch too much ($200-300), you should either tell your relative to negotiate herself if she wants or accept the deal at one of those dealers that accepted the offer. You word is your word and you should not back up from that offer at those dealers. Maybe she would just rather go to another dealer and start negotiation there. You just can't make an offer and then retract it.

cliffy1

I was thinking about the guy who sent in a price bid by e-mail and had his price accepted by two dealers. He now thinks he offered too much and is considering changing his offer. Let me tell you how I really look at this.

It is this customer's right to do that. He made an offer and now regrets it. He wants to change his offer. He can do that. I can also pass wind in a crowded theater. Its my right. It isn't socially acceptable, couth or likely to win friends but it is my right.

Let me tell you about one experience I had when I was doing Internet sales. A guy mass mailed a bid to 15 area dealerships. I took his offer. He lived closer to me than any other on his list. He e-mailed me back with a new and lower offer along with a note that only myself and one other dealership took his original offer and now wanted to see how much lower the two of us would go.

He made two mistakes. In the original e-mail, he did a bulk mailing so I could see the e-mail address of all those he had sent bids to. In the second, he told me the name of the other dealership that took his bid.

Armed with that information, I sent him a note rescinding my acceptance. I also wrote a note describing how I would not allow myself to be caught in such a bidding war. I don't remember the exact words but it was something to the effect that I incorrectly assumed he was a man of honor and would not sell a car to a person who did such underhanded things. Believe it or not, it was a respectful note. It did smack him but gently.

I didn't just send this note to him. I sent it to the salesman at the other dealership that accepted his offer.

Within 10 minutes, I had two e-mails in my in-box. One from the customer apologizing and the other from the other salesman thanking me for standing up for myself. I about died laughing. It was worth loosing the sale to get both of those. The salesman called me later that day to tell me again "right on!" He didn't want to sell to such a slimeball either but his manager wouldn't allow him to blow the guy off. For the amount of profit (there wasn't any that I would be paid on) there was no reason to sell it anyway.

The customer's letter was even more interesting. He seemed sincerely apologetic. It was like I had pointed out something he already knew but was afraid to admit. He knew that a man is only as good as his word and his word was worthless. He didn't try to get anything else from me.

mackabee

Cliffy. I'd like to see the e-mail for further reference so I can use it. As far as passing wind in a crowed threatre? One of our guys did that at Cash blast in 2000. The trouble is everyone saw him. He stood up at the end of the table leaned over and just let go. All of us headed for the bar. Very Inconsiderate of him.
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                        Mackabee

cliffy1

I wrote that one when I was at Alexandria. I don't have my e-mail from back then. I did a similar one for one of our Internet guys here at Springfield several months ago. Same result. An apology letter from the customer. No sale but a nice apology. Our I-guys don't keep e-mail past one month old so I can't get that one either.

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi chorton. Here is the link to the Edmunds.com FAQ section that you requested: Edmunds.com Frequently Asked Questions.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

fleetwoodsimca

My definition of a good deal is to start at the dealer's invoice price, ignore hold back (that is the dealer's domain), subtract incentives and rebates from the invoice price, and then have a conversation between the dealer and the buyer. Setting these points as the parameters that will induce me to pursue buying really clears the air. I send the message outlining the formula to the specified Internet person at the dealership. I politely ask them to consider it, and to let me know at my email address if we can get together. I insist that I am serious about the parameters, and I state plainly that I am an opportune buyer as opposed to someone needing a vehicle. I can and do vary this a bit, but use that philosophy when shopping for cars. I particularly prefer to shop during January and February, because it increases the possibilities in my favor.

mackabee

This was my good deed for today. I had been e-mailing this customer on a Rav4. He requested a quote on a particular model and I sent it back. We had set an appointment last Saturday for a test drive but he did not show up. I e-mailed back during the week and lo and behold he shows up in my showroom this morning with a buddy of his. Turns out both are in the United States Marines and the prospective buyer is 20 years old has never bought a car and has minimal credit. After meeting them in the showroom he tells me his plans have changed and would like to look at a Corolla instead. "Why, what happened?" I asked. "After looking at my budget and going to my credit union they told me the most they would approve me for would be 15k plus 1k down from me. So the car can't be more than 16k total with ttl." he responded. So of we go to find a Corolla, after finding a CE in the Moonshadow gray pearl, we take it for a test drive. He likes the car and asks me if this will work. I tell him "Most definitely." When we get back to the store he asks me about power windows and door locks. "To get those you have to buy the Le." I tell him "How much more is that." he asks. "About a thousand more, but don't worry. I'm going to make you a deal." We get back and I look thru my inventory sheets and find a Corolla Le that stickers for $16,605.00 I get up and go talk to the General Sales manager and explain the situation to him. "Look, this kid is pre-approved thru his credit union and only has 16k max to spend." So we sell the car for $199.00 under invoice and with tax, title, and licensing fees it comes out to $16,000.01 I go back to my desk and give the kid the great news. He is ecstatic and can't believe his good luck! I then tell him that TOYOTA is offering 3.9% for 60 months and if I can look at his credit I might be able to save him some more. He tells me he has been at our MINI store the previous night and knows his score is 620 so he won't qualify. So I walk over to the MINI store and talk to the SM and they give me his credit app and report. I put everything in the deal folder and then we start calling insurance co's as he has no insurance and can't take the car without it. We make a few calls and find him one that he is comfortable with and can afford the payments. He goes back to F$I and completes the paperwork and by that time his car is ready to go. He sits at my desk and thanks me over and over. "Mack, let me have a bunch of your cards 'cause I'm going to give them to everyone in my squadron. Thanks man!" We go look at his car, I go over the features with them and he leaves with a big smile on his face. I remember how hard it was for me to get my first car so I went out of my way to help this kid.
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                                 Mackabee