Just what is a good deal?

mirth

I know I couldn't sell a DeVille to an old lady for MSRP, but I'm sure there are some dealers who wouldn't hesitate.

 

All those poor old ladies, being bilked by car dealers, lol. Remember what I said about hypothetical customers?

 

EVERY retail business depends on uninformed customers, appliances, furniture, and electronics being good example. It's just that the amounts are less by a factor of 10, so people don't get as worked up about it. I just paid $500 for a new TV from Best Buy. I'm sure somewhere, someone paid $400 at Best Buy for the same TV during a sale. That's a 20% difference! Should everyone who works at Best Buy quit because of this injustice?

 

I don't mean to pick on you, but the reality is that the buyers who don't do their homework subsidize the buyers who do. And that's okay, because someone who does more work should benefit more than someone who does less. And some people are willing to spend more to do less work. Group hug. ;-)

audia8q

you are correct...essentially the folks who pay over market value for a car are making it all possible for the folks paying below market value.

 

Do you think they feel any guilt that their price happened because somebody else overpaid?

heywood1

But don't all the dealers and salespeople maintain that they can't and don't sell cars for below market value?

heywood1

Hee Hee. That was funny.

kyfdx

"essentially the folks who pay over market value for a car are making it all possible for the folks paying below market value"

 

The key is.. find out who these people are... then follow them into the dealership, just as their $5K gross profit deal is completed.. You should then be able to get $3K under cost!!

 

Of course, you can't be too slow... what with the dealership personnel all leaving for Hawaii on the next plane.. ;-)

benderofbows

Say an uneducated buyer goes into a new car showroom and is told that MSRP is the best he can get. The dealer is intentionally 'hiding' decent rebates and markup. So the guy buys it beleiving that was the best he could do. Sure, he probably could have gotten it for at least a few grand less. But I think whether or not he got a "good deal" depends on what happens down the road.

 

If he keeps it until well after it is paid off then I don't think it makes any difference; he might not ever know or care. However, if for some reason he really needs to trade within a few years, that same dealer is going to tell him he's extremely upside down. He probably wouldn't even be able to get near his payoff selling it on his own for full retail. He's now stuck, when he wouldn't be had he gotten a "good deal."

mirth

In general, I don't think dealers hide rebates. I think what happens is that they include the rebate in their "discounted" price. So if the rebate is $2K, and the car MSRP is $20K, they'll tell the buyer that they can sell the car for $18K. And the uneducated buyer thinks they're getting a deal. In a way, they are, just not as good a deal as the educated buyer.

 

And really, what are the odds that someone is buried in their car ONLY because they paid $1-3K more when it was new? Most people who are upside-down got in that situation because of no down-payment, too long of a financing term, and/or decided they wanted a new car after only 2-3 years. In other words, when it comes to being upside-down, for every legitimate victim of unfortunate circumstance (lost a job or whatever), there's probably 10 that simply were irresponsible with their financial choices.

Kirstie_H

And really, what are the odds that someone is buried in their car ONLY because they paid $1-3K more when it was new?

 

If they bought the New Beetle during the Great Beetle Rush of '98, I'd put the odds at upward of 99%.

benderofbows

I know dealers in general don't hide rebates, I was just responding to the posts about some people paying MSRP for cars that are valued at much less.

 

In addition to rebates I was thinking of marketing support, dealer cash, etc. that lowers True Market Value and allows negotiators to get better deals. I know a $1k over-payment wouldn't make a huge difference, but in some situations (say $3k markup including lot fees, DOC fees, etc, $1k dealer cash, $1500 financing rebate) I am sure many uneducated buyers easily pay $4k more than the "best deal."

 

Now, even with a down payment but coupled with the massive new car depreciation hit in the first few years, if the guy is the one out of ten who loses his job or whatever, he might be $4-5k upside down with no recourse.

jipster

$750 is a lot to leave on the table. Considering how many people out there enjoy haggling over car prices...next time you may want to consider trying to find a friend or aquaintence to go with you to do the negotiating for you.All you have to do is sit back,drink some coffee while watching Jeopardy in the customer waitng area.Your friend comes over when he thinks hes gone as low as possible. You o.k the deal...and you're off.I've seen this done before while negotiating a price for myself.E-mail me next time Kirstie...I'll save you some of your hard earned money. ;-)

isellhondas

That kristie would ever need a "first baseman". If she does, she knows where to find me.

heywood1

Never heard it called a 'first baseman' before, but it's appropriate. I've done this many times for friends--especially my more impulsive ones. And I think that it makes for a faster and more professional transaction.

Kirstie_H

For someone taking care of the WHOLE transaction for me. I pick the car, give you my budget, and you do all of the work (for a nominal fee, of course). Just bring me something to sign.

 

Kind of like a "personal shopper" for vehicles.

benderofbows

Wow, I wonder if someone who likes to negotiate could make a living that way

kyfdx

I'm free next weekend... sounds like fun!!

heywood1

There are car-buying services, but I don't think they've managed any dominant shift in the car-buying process-- possibly because people are suspicious that there are kickbacks involved. Besides, paying someone to do it kind of defeats the purpose--and the savings....

john500

There was talk a while back about Walmart getting into car sales. I can't wait for that too happen. Go in, pay the sticker price (which will already be as low as you can get) and leave with the car. No hardcore 3 hours of negotiations to get the price posted on Edmunds. No more BS extended warranty sales that are pressed like a time-share.

heywood1

It might be a few years. First, they have to finish putting all of the grocery store chains out of business.

benderofbows

That's freakin' sweet! You can't beat Walmart for a good deal.

audia8q

well you missed it....they did it, it failed and they are now out of the car business.

 

They quickly learned that cardealers are very strong retailers...they also learned that people are not nearly as unhappy with the current process as the media would like us to believe.. and the big one, they also couldn't control distribution and pricing like their traditional business model....so, they wiped their bloody nose and decided that it was easier to wipe out mom and pop on main street.

heywood1

Not sure I agree with your first two points (strong retailers; people not unhappy with current process). But you are right on about Wal-Mart's not being able to control distribution and pricing [to the degree] they're used to.

 

Don't underestimate Wal-Mart. I believe they just saw easier opportunities to dominate elsewhere, first. I predict Wall-Mart will come back to the car business in some way at some point. How about the car RENTAL business? Think about it: Pick up or drop off a car at any Wal-Mart location coast-to-coast. They already have a computer system and acres of parking. I'm surprised they haven't done it already...

mirth

I don't know - I would think most rental business is done at the airport, right?

kyfdx

Enterprise has become the biggest rental company by exploiting the insurance market.. Now, that they are the biggest, they are starting to open airport locations....

 

They are also big in the service loaner business with car dealerships...

 

I'd think the car rental market would be a little too "service" intensive for Wal-Mart...

 

regards,

kyfdx

benderofbows

But to save money, people might not mind taking a shuttle to the nearest Wal-mart (can't be too far, lol).

 

In my city there is a gas station off of a major highway, between the highway and the Wal-mart parking lot. Wal-mart has put up it's own gas station in it's lot, directly behind the first gas station, almost out of sight. Guess which one is usually busier? Seems like a lot of people are willing to drive around to the access road to save 3 cents a gallon.

 

Then you get inside the Walmart and they have a generic McDonalds, a haircut place, a photo studio, a bank, a travel agency, a prescription eyeglass place...

cfg1

What is a generic McDonalds?

jlawrence01

Enterprise has had locations at the airports for 10-12 years. It is something that they do **NOT** do very well. If they are going to do it right, they need to be open the same hours as the other agencies at the particular airport. And generally, they do not make that commitment.

 

My LAST vacation ERAC rental was in San Antonio. I arrived at 9 pm, on time and at the time I made the reservation. Unfortunately, the location closed at 6 pm. The few dollars I would have saved at ERAC was more than offset by the premium I had to pay for a last minute rental car.

 

Don't get me wrong. I use them whenever I am heading from Chicago to Ohio for the weekend. I like be able to rent in the 'burbs paying 5% sales tax rather than the 23% Daley tax.

Kirstie_H

We're pretty far afield of the "good deal" discussion - not that this isn't interesting. Seems like a better fit for the ol' News & Views board.

rickvh

Burger King!

 

I dont eat McD's anymore anyhow. I had my own version of the movie "super size me" when i had to eat it almost morning noon and night for a month because I was being worked to death.

 

Wal Mart is evil. I dont care how many 4 page ads they take out to try and dispel all the bad mouthing they get. So what if they employ 40,000 people in my state. At what, minimum wage? 10 people would have to band together just to rent a 1 bedroom apartment. While the guy at the top makes richest man in the world every 3 or so odd years.

 

Plus the steak and ground beef they sell tastes like rubber bands.. and no its not my cooking!

terpfan2

Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with their car buying service? How good a deal do you actually get with cary buying services? How much better can a buyer, who is a good negotiator, do on their own?

isellhondas

Or better. Any you don't have to pay your "middleman" a fee either.

These buying services and car brokers are becoming a thing of the past with all of the information realilly available.

Kirstie_H

welcome to the Forums, terpfan2. Most of your questions are already answered in our discussion called Purchasing Programs (AAA, Costco, BJ's, etc.), but if you have more, please go ahead and post them in that topic.

cadillacmike

"Wal Mart is evil. I dont care how many 4 page ads they take out to try and dispel all the bad mouthing they get. So what if they employ 40,000 people in my state. At what, minimum wage? 10 people would have to band together just to rent a 1 bedroom apartment. While the guy at the top makes richest man in the world every 3 or so odd years. Plus the steak and ground beef they sell tastes like rubber bands.. and no its not my cooking! "

Walmart is being sued in 38 states for unfair labor practices. Some of the verdicts have already come in against them.....

jlawrence01

What does post #545 have to do with the topic of discussion?

lemmer

good deal on cars, not household items and groceries. I can see where the title could easily mislead a person.

Kirstie_H

I can see where the title could easily mislead a person.
(assuming tongue-in-cheek here)
...however, there are icons of vehicles all over the site, our slogan is "where smart car buyer start," and if nothing else, the "road tests" tab at the top should provide a hint that our focus isn't on toothpaste or Windex. Let's get back on track (or asphalt, as the case may be).

rroyce10

....... No toothpaste .....??



Terry.

cadillacmike

I don't think Wal Mart sells cars (yet), but if they ever do, and you want to buy a $30,000.00 item from a company that is being sued in 38 states for unfair labor practices, then go for it.

Then, when all the high paying jobs in the country are vaporized by the wal marts of the world then don't come crying here.

Americans are so hung up on preceived "good deals" that if the devil himself opened up a discount store that had better prices than walmart, then people would shop there!

lemmer

Any greeters at car dealers making 75K a year for saying "Hello" had better watch out because when WalMart takes over they are only going to pay you $8.50 an hour.

You have been warned!

Kirstie_H

If you want to talk about the *possibility* of Wal-Mart selling vehicles, start up a discussion on the News & Views board. Making me read all of this is unfair labor practices against hosts!

ronstoy

IIRC Wal-Mart did sell used cars on a trial basis at some of their stores. I am not sure how long it lasted, but WM decided it wasn't worth it and stopped the "test".

rroyce10

... **Making me read all of this is unfair labor practices against hosts!** .......l..o..l....

Terry )

iko

Hi- Not sure if this is the right location for this question, Im new to this forum. Im researching the vehicle Im interested in buying (Xterra offroad 2005) and am finding that some fo the options I want arent available in my region, which means I'll need to order the one I want. In negotiating at the dealer, how is the fact that I am ordering impact the negotiation? Also, I have a trade in- is that typically agreed upon as a value when ordering, or when the new vehicle arrives? Basically im concerned that I lose some of my negotiation position when I order vs. buying off the lot. Thanks for your help!

mirth

This has been asked a bunch of times. You should be able to get just as good a deal on an ordered truck as one that's on the lot. You should try and get your trade-in evaluated now and work out a written agreement about additional mileage that you will put on it from now until you get the new truck. However, the dealer isn't going to be enthusiastic about this deal for a number of reasons:

1. If you're truck is such an odd duck that no dealer has one with those options, then if you decided to back out of the deal at the last second due to buyer's remorse or changing circumstances, your dealer would be stuck with a hard to sell model.
2. The dealer has no control over how long it takes for an ordered car to come in. If they tell you it will take around 30 days, and it takes 60, they may end up with an annoyed customer calling them every day, and then slamming them on the survey.
3. And obviously, ordering a car doesn't reduce any of the dealer's current inventory.

Also, although you should buy what you like, you may want to think about getting a truck with more "common" options, even if it costs a little more, so that you'll have a far easier time selling it later.

Just things to think about.

bobst

Maybe one way to tell if you got a good deal is to observe how you are treated after the price has been finalized.

We bought a Honda Accord last week. After the sales manager did not accept our offer, we walked out, and he then sent the salesman out in the parking lot to tell us the deal had been accepted.

We were still at the dealers for quite awhile waiting for the car to be cleaned up, and the salesman was wonderful to talk with during that time.

When I walked past the sales manager, he would just glower at me. When I would say Hi, he would only grunt a response.

Was that a sign that we got a real low price from him?

All I know is the salesman was great and we love the new car.

cadillacmike

"Maybe one way to tell if you got a good deal is to observe how you are treated after the price has been finalized.
We bought a Honda Accord last week. After the sales manager did not accept our offer, we walked out, and he then sent the salesman out in the parking lot to tell us the deal had been accepted.
We were still at the dealers for quite awhile waiting for the car to be cleaned up, and the salesman was wonderful to talk with during that time.
When I walked past the sales manager, he would just glower at me. When I would say Hi, he would only grunt a response.
Was that a sign that we got a real low price from him? "

Too funny.
I guess my happy sales mgr means that I didn't get such a great deal on my new CTS in Jan!

but my wife likes the car so all's well that ends well (I think ?!?!?!)

mevande

The Sales Manager was just playing his game. The sales reps try to play "good guy" and the Sales manager the "evil" guy that turns down all your offers. I would have kept on walking to another dealer if one was close to you. I wish they would all stop playing games and make "car selling" a reputable vocation w/ reps that really know their cars and competition.

bobst

Well, this dealer accepted our offer, and that was all that mattered to us. We have no problem with sleazy sales managers as long as we get the product we want for the price we want.

fredvh

I respect your opinion bobst but I still think we should NOT reward a car dealership with our money when they are "sleazy". If more of us would walk when they become sleazy they would be forced to change their ways in order to stay in business. The lowest price is NOT the best deal.

rroyce10

....... You use the word "sleazy" ..... what makes them sleazy.? .. they're in business to make a profit, right? ... so lets banish every furniture, plumber, jeweler, real estate broker on the planet ... plus their profit margins are 4 times what a car dealer makes, with a 10th of the investment .. but they're in business to make a profit, not to be declaring bankruptcy ....

Terry.

bobst

Good question, Terry.

In our case, we just didn't like the way the sales manager treated us. After he accepted our offer and we were waiting for the car to be cleaned up, he wasn't at all friendly. He seemed to resent us.

I would think that a good salesman would treat his customers nicer. That is how it is when we buy furniture, appliances, mattresses, yachts, etc.