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Just what is a good deal?

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    I think we've about exhausted this particular subject. We'll have to agree that people have different purchasing standards, and a variety of factors that are personally important to them when buying a vehicle. It's obvious that some are willing to pay more for "extra" or better service, while some people shop on price alone. There's not a lot more to be said about it, and we're just going around in circles and leaning toward personal comments.

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  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    I'm not sure spending thousands extra (on a single purchase) just to do business locally is much of a "purchasing standard." But then again, I "don't get it."
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    the thing is I suspect you wouldn't be paying thousands extra....maybe a little extra, and maybe not.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    Well, I was referring to my real-world experience of shopping for building materials (windows) that I mentioned a few posts prior. And the savings was nearly $4,000. Someone else here claimed they wouldn't shop at a big box store, no matter how much they saved. I was doubting that rather grand statement. Paying tens or hundreds of dollars more may be worth shopping at a local Mom&Pop, but certainly not paying thousands more.

    The bigger the purchase, the more people care about how much they're spending. And automobiles definitely cost more than washers & dryers....
  • likeitornotlikeitornot Member Posts: 42
    I only talked to a dealer for about10 minutes today and my guess is that these Honda "Clearance Sales" aren't any better than any other special. 2005 Civic VP for $14,900 with a Red Tag on it. But no markdown price. Guy comes out and says that they're selling them for $13,000. Apparently you'd be making up the difference in interest since there are no fianncing or even lease specials on it.

    Do I have this right, or are the clearance specials really still the best time to get a new car if you're going to get one? I even went to the Honda site and there wasn't anything on Civics.

    I think I rather just get a used anyway. At least I get more options with it. But the thought of having a brand new car sounds good too along with warranty.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,617
    The Honda Clearance Sale... is an advertising vehicle that Honda has used for a number of years...

    Some models do get extra incentives put on them at that time.. (Pilot and Ridgeline, this year)... Other models already have pretty good incentives from previous months, and other models get no new incentives, at all...

    Civics have incentives, but they are basically the same ones they have had all summer.. Generally, this is a good time of year to buy a car, but the "Honda Clearance" is mostly just advertising (that works).

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If you are talking about me, once again...I never said that.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .... **The _________ Clearance Sale... is an advertising vehicle that ___________ has used for a number of years...**



    In this case, just fill in the blanks ........

    BMW, Lexus, Chevy, Audi, Pontiac, Benz, Jeep etc, etc, etc ..............



    Terry.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    I didn't say it was. It was audia8q (post #666).
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    I believe the Civic will be an all-new model for 2006, so I would think there should be some better-than-the-usual-clearance deals. Of course, inventory is probably dwindling. At least before gas prices spiked, Civics weren't exactly flying off dealer lots....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Civics have always been great sellers. Inventories on 2005's is down to almost nothing at this point.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    Sure, Civic inventories would be down to 'almost nothing' at this point. It's the end of the model year, and--more importantly--the end of the model run. There is an all-new Civic for 2006, so any brand-new '05's remaining on your lot are basically used cars, depreciation-wise....

    I believe I predicated my statement with regard to Civic demand to that before gas prices spiked. Until gas hit $2.00 per gallon, Accord and Civic sales were waning. Odyssey and Pilot sales were carrying the company.

    In March of 2005, Honda sales declined 8.3 percent in the first two months of the year. According to the Detroit Free Press, "The blame for Honda Motor's performance this year largely falls on the flagship Honda brand, its resistance to offering big rebates, and the fast-declining popularity of its two best-selling vehicles-- the long-dependable Accord and Civic cars..."
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    But..."fast declining"? Don't think so.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    Believe what you want. But statistics aren't opinions.

    The article went on to note that--at the time--Honda car sales were down 20.7% (Honda trucks were up 4%), with Accord sales off 15% and sales of Civic down 26.9% from the same period in 2004.

    Among other reasons, the article cited the Civic's sales slump to its aging design, as well as suspension changes that were rejected by young buyers who like to customize their vehicles.

    Understandably, the Detroit Free Press covers the automotive industry quite closely. Also there was a similar article in Automotive News at the time. Maybe they were lying....
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **article cited the Civic's sales slump to its aging design, as well as suspension changes that were rejected by young buyers who like to customize their vehicles ...**

    Body styles on the Accord, I'm sure .. I called that over 2 years ago ..... but customizers are only 1% of the entire market and that includes Yota, Nissan, Honda, etc, etc ........

    Editors don't necessarily print the proper news with the proper information ..... lets be honest, it's a job that they get paid for .. just look at the difference between the LA Times and other newspapers and different editors like Dan Rather .. it's the news -- but it's "their" view of the news ...... the biggest issue with Civics is the price, they are probably in one of the most competitive markets in that $15/$19,0 range and price immediately converts to payments .... 90% of those buyers are buying a "payment", not a car.



    Terry :shades:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Some of the guys just returned from the 2006 Civic Ride and Drive and to a person, they were TOTALLY JAZZED over the new Civics!

    Usually someone will be a bit less than excited but not this time!
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Are they almost as excited as the Chevy salesmen were when the wonderful new Vega came out in 1970?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Funny, because people stood in line to see and drive the Vegas when they came out! I was one of them.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Personally, I thought the Pintos were designed better because they didn't have a bunch of wasted space between the fuel tank and the rear bumper. But the Gremlins were to die for.

    Seriously, I think the 2005 Civic sedans are one of the best looking cars on the road and the 2006 models look even better according to the pictures.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    Maybe. You hope.

    Did you see the article about the Civic in the September 9th edition of The Wall Street Journal?

    The headline read: "Honda, in a Funk, Tries to Revive the Civic's Virtues."

    A quote from the article: "As the Civic became more civilized, loyal buyers fled. Despite profit-sapping discounts, Civic sales are off 8% since their 1998 peak."
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Actually, Civic sales are doing just fine but I do appreciate your concern.

    I suppose the 2006 Civics could be a flop, but I really don't think so. I finally drove one today and I was shocked at the improvements on an already great car.

    They definatly were overdue for a change but I had no idea they would be changing this radically.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    Civic sales are off 8% since their 1998 peak.

    I don't know the actual numbers, but i'm guessing here... so, instead of 200K units, they sold 184K? Yeah, I don't think that necessarily represents a problem. There are a dozen other manufacturers who would kill for those sales.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    This old posting summarizes my friend's experience when he bought his new 2006 Sienna LE. He found a Sienna LE equipped exactly as he wanted it color and options, the price was reasonable, etc.
    I, too, think the dealership should receive a fair but not excessive profit. ;)
  • mikezoomzoommikezoomzoom Member Posts: 69
    No one has posted in this forum for a little while so I thought I would try to get some discussion going in regards to "Just what is a good deal?"

    Sticker Price... between MSRP and invoice... invoice... under invoice???

    Obviously, it depends on the vehicle and the current market situation. Rebates and incentives help dealers sell more and consumers buy more. Both sides will gladly accept more from their respected positions( more profit to the dealer VS more discount to the consumer). Where is the middle road? When can both sides be satisfied and happy?

    As a consumer, the question "Just what is a good deal?" is appropriate. You've researched,shopped, test driven, then researched, shopped, and test driven again. You narrowed down what you want and maybe even made some compromises along the way. You even have an idea concerning real-world trade values and what type of APR you might qualify for, if applicable. What will it truly take to really make you feel you're getting a good deal and pull the trigger?

    The dealer side, the question "Just what is a fair deal?" is appropriate. Truly realistic offers, within reason, will usually be accepted. Concessions can possibly be made, also within reason, to try and assist the transaction. Unfortunately, these scenarios don't always come to a head. In my opinion, it seems that a large percentage of consumers in todays marketplace feel that dealerships should make only holdback... if that. Of course I'm biased to a certain degree, since it's also my livelihood, but I'm also a consumer too.

    WHAT'S GOOD FOR THE CONSUMER ISN'T ALWAYS FAIR TO THE DEALER!

    WHAT'S GOOD FOR THE DEALER ISN'T ALWAYS FAIR TO THE CONSUMER!

    Give and take is a two way street. Any productive thoughts and feedback on this will be greatly appreciated.

    ZOOM ZOOM
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Dealers always like to use this "fairness" argument in order to justify higher prices. (It's the prelude to the whole "split the difference/ meet in the middle" schtick, which is meant to push the price higher or lower the trade-in value.) That argument is just another come-on in the seller's bag of tricks, and not really relevant to me as a consumer.

    As a consumer, my goal is to pay the lowest price possible. I'm going to assume that the dealer is intelligent enough to agree to a deal that works for him.

    Unless the dealership hires me to serve as its consultant, it's not my job to worry about how "fair" a deal is for the dealership. Why would I possibly care about making the dealership "satisfied and happy"? The dealer is responsible for its own emotional wellbeing, not me.

    Every dollar I pay to the dealer is a dollar that I'm taking away from myself, my family or another merchant who would also like my money. I see no reason to find new and creative arguments for leaving more of it with a car dealer, I'll leave that to the dealership's employees to worry about.
  • 1racefan1racefan Member Posts: 932
    I just bought a Honda Friday night. Before I went in there, I researched invoice, MSRP, TMV, read the prices paid forum, and even spoke with a couple of individuals locally that had recently purchased the same car. Obviously I knew what my budget was, saw that Honda had special financing on said vehicle, so that indicated to me that it the market for this vehicle was slanted a little more towards the buyer.

    Based off of this, I figured out what I was willing to pay for the vehicle, and also set it in my mind that if the dealer couldn't get below this, I would walk. I didn't really consider what was fair to the dealer - as I figured the dealer wouldn't sell me the car if he wasn't going to make any money off of it.

    My point is that I think the dealer is in a better position of knowing what is and isn't fair for both parties than the consumer is.
  • mstonermstoner Member Posts: 3
    Many her have argued for "everybody pays the same price and that would be fair". It sure would. The manufacturers place a suggested retail price on the vehicles and everyone could buy the vehicle for that less any customer rebates.

    Most customers believe they must object to the MSRP and so begins the "process" we all dislike. The whole thing comes around full circle again to "Dealers should just put a price on the vehicle and everyone pays that price". The never-ending story.

    If you've ever held a garage sale you're in the same position as a car dealer. You've priced your products and if someone makes an offer at less than that you may, accept it, decline it or attempt to get a higher price from your customer.

    What makes you different than the dealer?
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    My point is that I think the dealer is in a better position of knowing what is and isn't fair for both parties than the consumer is.

    Perhaps this is just a difference in semantics, but the dealer isn't going to be particularly interested in ensuring that the customer pays a "fair" price (whatever that means.) The dealer's concern is to obtain as much profit as possible, and whether that's fair to you isn't really of his concern.

    It's safest to go into the dealership with assumptions that make sense in any business situation:

    -The dealer has a range of prices that it will find acceptable. The lower part of that range may not be immediately obvious, and it may take some finesse for you to find it, but there is likely a price that will be acceptable that is not offered during the early stages of the negotiation.

    -As a buyer, your job is to find the bottom of the range, and to not pay more than that.

    -The negotiation methods that you use, combined with your research, will help you to find the lower part of that range.

    I don't expect the dealer to determine what's "fair" for me, but to make as much money for his side of the house as he can get away with. My goal is to pay as little as possible and keep money for my side. The most realistic and reasonable position to take is to accept that the dealer is not there to be your consumer advocate. It's not a matter of what's "fair", but what is achievable.
  • swanny22swanny22 Member Posts: 3
    Hi,

    I am wanting to get everyone opinion on how to get the best deal on a car. Should I look for an Older Car with Low Miles or a Newer Car with High Miles? Both affect the resale value of the car.

    For example I am looking at a 99 Pathfinder 4WD SE with Leather, Moonroof, Premium Sound, Running Boards and ect with only 47K miles on it. The interior is in excellent condition and the exterior is in fair condition. One dent but some scratches on it. They are asking 10K for it.

    OR--

    I would possibly find a 2001 Pathfinder for about the same price but with twice as many miles on it...

    What is the best deal???
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I think I've read this post somewhere else before, but here's my take on it anyway:

    1. If you don't drive too much, the '01 might be better, because in your lack of driving, a high miler might become an 'average miler' in a couple of years, with the better resale of a two-year newer model, or 2. If you drive a lot, are reasonably confident that the older has been well kept, and plan on 'driving it into the ground' (resale be damned, model year inconsequential), then the older with lower miles might be a better option. Also, some stores and/or banks only finance a vehicle up to five model years old, so if you're not a 'cash' buyer, the '99 might not be an option.
  • raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    There's only a 2-year difference in the cars; take the '99!
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Hey what's up? I started this thread sometime ago. Remember?
    :)
    Mackabee
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Remember?

    Welcome back, Mac! :)

    So, have you figured out what makes a deal a good one yet?

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    One both parties can live with
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    One both parties can live with

    And it only took us 703 posts to realize that! ;)

    Please welcome Mack back. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    Delighted to have you back. Hope you are feeling well and are back in the saddle - please bring your inimitable posting style back.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    One both parties can live with

    Not really. While necessary to make a sale, this agreement wouldn't nessesarily be a "good deal" for either party.

    A good deal for me is when the dealership makes very little profit. A good deal for you would be when you make a lot of profit off the jipster... which ain't gonna happen. :shades:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    A good deal is dealer invoice including destination less all incentives,rebates,and .75 of the holdback.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    Yeah... that's what I wrote.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    don't forget at least half of the salesperson's commission check too! ;)

    -thene :sick:
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    Don't forget at least half of the salespersons commission check too!

    Shoo... you guys(sales/former) are always scanning these discussions aren't ya? ;)

    Nahh, I wouldn't suggest half of the salesperson commission check. That would go beyond the topic of this discussion, and into the realm of "great deals". :)
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    A good deal for you would be when you make a lot of profit off the jipster
    I would prefer to make a fair profit and sell you cars for a life time then make a big profit one time.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I already got that w/ the .75 holdback. :)
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    well no, not really...a salesperson's commission check is usually determined by gross over invoice. even with that, there is usually a point where it becomes a mini deal (mine were $100 - so unless I sold a car for more than $500 over invoice, it was going to be a mini). Going into the holdback doesn't take half my commission...since its a mini anyways...you'd actually have to ask for it ;)

    oh, and jipster...we're EVERYWHERE!!! BWHAHAHAHAA!!

    -thene :shades:
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    So,then, I'm a sport at Invoice less all incentives and less 75% of the holdback. I feel good all over. ;)
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    :D

    yup! a genuine do gooder you are! ;)

    -thene :shades:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It depends on the car you are buying!

    Your little idea of a "good deal" will probably work on cars that are in high supply and low demand. Cars few people want. These same cars are the ones that nobody wants later down the road as used cars.

    So, yeah, if one of these cars appeals to you, you can certainly buy one and feel good all over!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Your little idea of a "good deal" will probably work on cars that are in high supply and low demand. Cars few people want. These same cars are the ones that nobody wants later down the road as used cars.

    So, yeah, if one of these cars appeals to you, you can certainly buy one and feel good all over!


    Which is perfectly fine if you are going to keep the car forever but don't plan to trade it in two years later.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I drive Accords and always plan to keep them forever,then every 8-10 years a new one seduces me. Thanks for the backup BR. :)
  • lawhergirllawhergirl Member Posts: 3
    i found the car i had been searching for...2006 Black BMW 330i. The tag on the car states that it was on "sale" for 31990 down from 33999. Salesperson shows me Kelly Blue book that value is 35995. I specifically want to stay around 29999-30000. Salesperson asked me if I have looked anywhere else. i did tell him that I had spoken with someone at Carmax and they were transferring a 2006 Black BMW 325I to me, with less miles selling at 28500.00. Salesperson goes into owner's office where they look up the car on the internet to show me that their "features" far outweigh those on the car offered by carmax (and truthfully they did) and, as such, their "sticker or tag price" was their bottom line and they weren't moving on the price. I did, as I had been instructed to do and walked out....
    however, i really want this car....
    is there any way to save face short of just walking back in and paying their asking price....
    Should i even ask for a reduction considering, that Edmunds, Kelly, and NADA all show that the price is actually a good one????
    please advise
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