They make SUCH a process out of buying a car! They micro-analyze everything to death! They are SO afraid that just maybe, they will pay more than someone else did!
Then, afterwards, they come to the "Prices Paid" forums, wringing their hands as they ask..."did I pay too much?"
And, of course, someone will always come along and tell than that they did, indeed, pay too much.
I like bryan's way of doing business! It really doesn't have to be that difficult.
If you feel good when you drive out of the dealership, you got a "good deal"!
Once a deal is done. why ask and why try to make someone feel bad?
And, some of these so called prices people say they paid are pure fiction. I know the numbers that are....well....maybe and the prices that just didn't happen/
I'm not sure if people forget what they paid or simply don't tell the truth.
People get memory loss when they tell you what they paid. Yeah, they got the car for $500 under invoice, but neglect to mention the $400 doc fee they paid in F&I or the fact that their trade was undervalued by $1000. Or the $1000 extended warranty they bought for $2000. And so it goes...
i bet some people didnt get a great deal, but on the internet, you can be anonymous, so they brag that they got this insane deal...
i look at some of the numbers on here and just shake my head - if this is what some people are basing their transaction figures upon, they're in for a real treat when they try to buy a vehicle at that price...
I didn't realize being a car salesman was so lucrative! Apparently, you can afford to pay hundreds--or even thousands--of dollars more than necesary for a vehicle (or your washer and dryer). Most people cannot. And with the accurate and up-to-the-minute street pricing available on the internet, there is no reason they should-- other than to keep a salesperson from thinking they're 'cheap,' of course.
I'm right there with you in that belief... some of these scenarios which we read about are purely absurd. Especially when you have one consumer who starts doubting themselves as a result of someone else stating that "they" feel they could do better.:(
My goodness! Nobody seems to be willing to admit that they might have left an extra $3.00 on the offer table, yet realizes they actually got a good deal.
Sure is a lot of folks who come out of the woodwork to tell about how they sure pulled one over on the dealer and got a steal... with an extreme amount of exaggeration.
you want to know whats really funny? the people who have the most money, are the most stingy...
go figure...
same people who haggle and fight for the last $100 are walking in the door with overpriced ralph lauren polos with wives who carry kate spade purses...
so as long as the entire public is being ripped off equally, then let the screwing begin?
Thanks... you actually just solidified a point which I made earlier. I'm assuming that you, as a consumer, feel that this "up-to-the-minute street pricing" is all the figures which are seen on websites. This regards MSRP, invoice, holdback, incentives, rebates, APRs, trade-in values, and of course... what type of good outrageously great deals others have reported. :P
Question... what about "up-to-the-minute dealer operation costs" and " up-to-the-minute salesperson average wages?" :confuse:
Salespeople used to ask each other about commissions after a deal was done whether it was out of simple curiosity... or even gloating, to a certain degree. Keep in mind, this is done in some aspect in almost every business( won the big game, locked in that elusive contract, no accidents for so many days.)
This doesn't happen any more. Most of the time everyone already knows what to expect... and I work extremely hard for my $100 per deal. I wouldn't expect any true compassion from the majority of consumers since it is already assumed that we're in the business to rip you off, but if you really knew everything that goes into a car deal.
After everything is said and done... the automobile business is changing for the better in a lot of ways. Just never seems to be good enough for some, even though it might be affecting others... on both sides.
This is a question for all the car salesmen/women who have posted here in the past few days. (First, let me say that I am sure you are all nice people, otherwise you wouldn't be taking the time to come here and answer questions, my opinion is about the process, not about any of you)
If the consumer doesn't like the process of weeding through all the numbers to figure out what is really a fair deal, and the car salesman doesn't like their paychecks being hit so hard due to the consumer's increased knowledge - what should the ideal car selling model be?
Let's take isellhonda's recent washer/dryer purchase as an example. I am very curious as to how you actually bought them:
1. Did you do a minimal amount of research as to reliability and features, walked into the nearest store that sold them, and then just bought it?
2. Or did you price compare between a few stores and ask the salesman at a few of them about the machines? This is how many people buy cars, which you and others are complaining about. What about the time you took up from the appliance stores that you didn't buy from? Many appliance salesmen work off of commissions, or at the least, have their sales records tracked. Did you buy from the store with the best deal? If so, did you give any consideration that the paycheck of the salesman that helped you might be smaller because of the lower selling price? These are all the things many of you here are asking the car buyers to take into account.
My point is that if someone used method 1 for all their purchases, think of all the little bits of money they are over spending that could really add up. In our house, we spend about $1000 a month on consumer items (food, car payment, clothing, etc. - all things that we decide how much spend on). If I can save only 5% each month, that's $600 a year - a nice weekend trip filled with lifelong memories for our family, very much worth the effort to save everywhere I can.
Yes, I agree that some people can take method 2 to extremes ( and I have been known to do that), but for the most part, that is how many purchases, major or minor, are made. When someone comes up with a better car buying system that is implemented industry wide, I will be first in line.
So, in your opinions, what would the ideal and FAIR car buying system be from a seller's point of view? Set price? You work off of salary - not commission? Combination of the two? Any other ideas?
you want to know whats really funny? the people who have the most money, are the most stingy...
Umm.. how do you think they got the money? And, I don't call it stingy, I call it frugal and intelligent..
Hey.. when I worked in the bar business, I was a big tipper, as I related to the people that had to make tips to earn a living... I'm sure that you, as a commissioned salesperson empathize with people in that profession...
Just don't expect me to feel the same way... My money is my money.. Any money that I save, improves my standard of living.. You'd be amazed how much that adds up over time...
As we all know, it takes two hands to make a sound.
In the same vein, it takes two people to haggle. If a car sales person thinks a buyer is being stingy, the buyer probably thinks the same about the dealership.
In my opinion, people who complain about others being difficult to work with are the same ones who have the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way."
Several years back when I sold Chevrolets I had a gentleman purchase a 2DR/4WD/Sport Tahoe for his soon to be sixteen year old daughter. This fine gentleman was the owner of several medical clinics in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and made an incredibly nice living. On paper, he reported his yearly gross to be over $1,000,000. I'm sure some of that had to be going back into his business for operating costs and such. Found out that was not the case as a result of our conversation during the process. :confuse:
Long story short... after figures were presented in decreasing increments of $2,500 off and then $3,500 off, he demanded $100 over invoice on a vehicle which had a mark-up of around $4,600. Then he wanted the front windows tinted and nerf bars installed for free. I refused the freebies and he seemed disgruntled the remainder of time we spent together, even through delivery. :mad:
As I've said before... I work hard for my $100 per deal with no compassion towards my position. I guess my problem is that I sell cars and I'm compassionate to my customers. I get burned a lot in one way or another!!! I'm not one of the bad apples!!!
its amazing what people will do, and how little they care...
i didn't like being painted with the same brush as the sleezy guy with 14 gold chains and a rolex or two - i legitimately tried to help everyone who came in, but i was still the "bad guy"
its a frustrating job, but unfortunately someone has to do it...
Of course, I'm sure you've heard the old joke about the guy driving a Rolls-Royce who was using a self-service gas station. Another man walks up to him and asks, "Why is a guy like you pumping your own gas?" The Rolls owner replies, "How do you think a guy like me got to be a guy like me?"
...... All very good and valid points .... but I think the point that's being made is, even though there's Edmunds and a dozen other "big" sites, buyers today use them as some sort of "Holy Grail", the Kryptonite or this special "force field" that will make them impervious to those nasty dealers prices, so therefore it is "written" - and the dealer must meet and collapse to this new and powerful "force" and lose money just to make friends ....
I understand that someone is going to spend $20/$30/$40,0 big ones, but some folks get this crazy idea that the dealer keeps it all .. depending on the vehicle and the time of the year, they're lucky if they make 2% to 5%, and 80% of that just goes just to keep the lights on and pay the floorplan (and they better be selling a bunch of those to keep that figure going) .. see, profit is not a 4 letter word - and the word "fair" has to be used on both sides ...
Education is the best way for the consumer to get a better price ... that said, that doesn't mean reading 2 posts from Edmunds from the guy in Portland that say's he paid $1,500 under invoice on a new TL (which by the way, goes on all the time and confuse's many new buyers to these forums) or asking Bert the Barbecue salesman that used to be in the car biz 5 years ago and using that as the "barometer" of the pricing range ...
Saving money is a wonderful thing .. I guess what always surprises me, is that folks post they saved $150 by shopping 5 dealers in 2 weeks and traveled 80 miles to do it .. but that sword seems to swing both ways, these are usually the same folks that paid $359,000 for a $329,000 home or paid an extra $3,000 in closing costs, or like my neighbor that just paid $299 for a new golf club, but could have got it online for $150 .. this is also the same guy that didn't like new car prices and went to 4 different stores until he could find a dealer to sell him a new "ABC" vehicle for $300 less .... of course the dealer sold it to him for $300 less, it's "black" .. and a black car in the south, in August no less is the kiss of death and the dealer would have sold him the car for $2,300 less, I guess he showed me ..l.o.l...
Just like my Great grand Daddy used to say: "common sense isn't common" ......
Knowledgeable persons of subject item on this forum are requested to reply to my postings # 500 and 508 at Forum: Toyota Avalon: Prices Paid & Buying Experiences. Thanks.
I had the following discussion with my father in-law. He is an appraiser and very busy. The limiting factor in his work is the number of hours in the day. He makes about $80 /hr. So he is looking for a new car. He drives about 50K per year, and needs something reliable and reasonably efficient.
He decided on a car (Subaru Foester: he likes my Forester). Now, he is shopping. For the last month...He had a good deal on an '05 (23200 for an LLBean), but he thought he could do better. I pointed out that it is $400 less than I paid for mine, and that the restyled '06's will be several thousand more. Well, he kept looking. Now, the only ones availble are the '06's, which run about 3K more....
Last weekend, I asked him how much time he spent on the car shopping. He said only 10 hours. I pointed out that if he took the inital deal (23200) he would have been able to make $800 more on work, and I think he got my point.
(when I bought mine, I just took the *internet* price, which was invoice - rebate (1600).
thats a perfect story to illustrate what a lot of us have been saying. most dealers are giving ridiculous prices on vehicles anyways - they have to to compete. shopping around for another month to see if anyone can beat a deal by $200 or so is nuts. in that time, you could have done so many other things, or made more money on the job...
i guess whatever floats your boat...but it sure seems silly to me...
But here's the problem I still have with this - how do you know when you are looking for a deal better by just $200 without shopping around? There are so many costs involved here - car, doc fees, trade-in allowance, etc. So, you almost have to get at least two quotes just for comparison. Its almost impossible for a consumer to actually know when she is getting to the point of diminishing return (time lost verses money saved).
And, on top of that, some of the posters here are asking us to consider what the salesman makes in the process. My original question to the salesmen was if you considered other's salary from purchases you made - or do you go for the best deal for your family? I am just pointing out that this consideration has to work for all purchases involving commissions, not just for buying a car, otherwise it might be a bit hypocritical.
Would more level pricing between dealers of the same brands help make choosing a dealership more of a service issue, than a best price one? Maybe standardized pay scales, more like relator fees in home buying? From a seller's standpoint - what changes would you make from you side to improve or replace the current car buying process?
We looked at washers and dryers at Home Depot and Lowes. Ended up going back to a small mom and pop appliance store where we bought our dishwasher.
Didn't really shop price much and we probably paid a bit more than we would have at one of the chains. They do offer free delivery and installation and I like the concept of dealing with the owner. Not many of these places left and as a former business owner I just like giving them my business.
It would definitely help in my case. I'm shopping for a used truck. What I'm seeing is anywhere between $2,000-$6,000 differences between dealerships for the same year, make, model, trim package, and options, when comparing those of similar mileage. So yeah, I think it would be worth my time to do a little extra research on my part to find the best price I can. If it were only a difference of $200-$500, it would be a totally different story and I wouldn't still be looking.
How to go about accomplishing a level pricing structure doesn't seem very practical to me. The condition of used vehicles varies. It might be feasible in the new vehicle realm, but didn't Ford Motor Company try that a few years ago and fail?
Just my thoughts, doesn't mean I'm right though. Personally, I hate shopping in general whether it's for new clothes or a new/used vehicle. And I don't have any desire to negotiate back and forth. But some people love to do that and it's part of the thrill. Everyone is just different. Until now, I haven't shopped for another means of transportation in 11 years (my '95 Accord EX has been wonderful for me).
Thanks for answering. So, you do follow the advice you give for buying cars, when you make other purchases - its very nice to hear. You happened to hit upon an issue which we are fighting where I live. We are a nice small town, with a beautiful main street, lots of mom and pop stores selling everything you might need. But, we are rapidly becoming a suburb of a nearby big city (30 minutes away) and guess who's trying to come in? Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Target,....
To keep on topic: one way to measure a good deal might be when you are sure your price is pretty close, and you have a good feeling about the place and people you are buying from.
To keep on topic: one way to measure a good deal might be when you are sure your price is pretty close, and you have a good feeling about the place and people you are buying from.
i agree with this, its not always about getting the best bottom line price. you may pay a bit more at a mom and pop store, but you know you'll get a great experience, support a local business, and get great service...sometimes thats worth more than an extra $200...
Also, my experience is that each dealer will (more or less) be close to each other dealers price on comperable cars. I shop the dealer -- not the price. If I like the dealer, the web will guide me to a fair price.
I'm assuming that's why you're a former business owner?
My wife and I are in the process of building a new home. If we bought all of our appliances and building materials strictly from mom & pop businesses that gave us a warm fuzzy feeling, the house would end up costing 15-20% more.
Actually, heywood, I was very successful. I went into management with that company and remained with them for 19 years. I did quite well, thank you.
And, yeah...I probably paid an extra 40 dollars but it was nice to shake the hand of the elderly gentleman who manages to stay in business in spite of the Big Box stores people like you favor. Silly me!
spite of the Big Box stores people like you favor. Silly me!
Mmm, kinda surprised on this one... 10->20% of a median house is a nice->very nice car...
So, would the car dealers rather we shop at the big boxes then run out and buy a new car, or is the consensus to shop at the Mom&Pops while making do with Ole Bessie?
Myself, I'm O.K. spending a few hundred a year for what M&P gives you, but I like the effect on prices that the Boxen have. (Before you cry me a river, be ready to hate Sear & Roebuck's catalog back to the 18-somethings.)
Still, I thinkknow I'd rather have a new house and a new car than one or the other.
In my opinion, people who complain about others being difficult to work with are the same ones who have the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way."
Amen! ESPECIALLY when someone's complaining about "small" things - If it's so small why are you fighting so hard?
I suspect part of this stems from the atrophied brains that "zero-tolerance" produces - Most folks under 40 grew under a rule-maker / rule-taker philosophy intentionally designed to be administered by the least capable staff member. I believe this leads to a mental fragility that does not easily allow for dynamic positions or compromise.
Anyway, I know there was a car discussion around here somewhere... Oh, yeah, does anyone think you should send your salescritter a thank-you note? If not, why did you buy from them?
"Oh, yeah, does anyone think you should send your salescritter a thank-you note?"
I am a pretty cheap person, but we sent a $100 gift certificate to our last 'salescritter'. The sales manager and F&I guy weren't too good, but we liked the salesman a lot.
So you'd rather pay 15-20% more for a home just for the privilege of doing business with a 'mom & pop?' Let's assume the median new home price is $200K (and we both know it's more on the west coast). Is avoiding the big box stores worth another $20,000+ to you? If so, then you must be silly! Going from ownership to management was probably a smart move for you....
Odd... many people wonder where that salesperson is that "worked" them such a great deal when they go back to the dealer for service, information, or even another vehicle. The thought rarely crosses their mind that too many invoice, or below invoice, deals will get the salesperson fired or put them in the poorhouse. Most likely, either scenario will force them to look elsewhere in order to provide for their families and livelihood.
If a consumer knew the figures they were trying to achieve were low enough to wipe out any type of commission percenteges... maybe then a little compassion for a good salesperson? Would consumers balk if gratuity was a standard practice in the car business? Would knowing that the price a consumer wanted results in a "mini" commission to the salesperson of $50 to $100 make a difference in expectations on both sides? What about time invested and great product presentation? Let me guess... we're still making money( usually said by a customer with a slight elbow nudge)?
As I've said before... I've sold many cars that I didn't sell. I line up the consumer with all the info and knowledge. Then they buy for a $100 difference somewhere else without even giving me last consideration.
It seems that the human factor gets burnt on all sides sometimes.
Consumer- Bad experience with a dealer, or salesperson... it happens.
Salesperson- Bad experience with a customer, or dealer... it happens.
Dealer- Bad experience with a salesperson, or customer... it happens.
The dealer ultimately makes some sort of profit at the deals that most customers are seeking these days... how about tipping your "good" salesperson that just worked for your "good" deal?
Any compassion? Are we just "car salespeople?" Not human?
You implied that shaking the hand of the elderly owner was worth the premium you paid for your washer and dryer, did you not? I'm just wondering to what price point you take this warm fuzzy thing before you do 'shop price much' for a major purchase.
Shaking hands with the guy who owns the dealership isn't worth paying more for a car.
As for tipping, I see no problem with that. I recently test drove several different makes and models to determine what I was looking for in a truck at a dealership. The salesman suggested I do so to help narrow the field and to come back anytime, drive some more, etc.
I still haven't fouund what I'm looking for, but I did spot the salesman a $50 for his time even though I haven't bought yet. It was totally worth it in my book and the salesman appreciated the gesture, even if it may have only been a token amount. And I made sure I did this when it was a slow day on the lot.
I don't want any tips... Those dollars should go to the store instead.
In the restaurant industry, you tip your server and they in turn tip out whomever manages to negotiate a cut. I neither know nor care[1] whether the busser is tipped out or not. (echoes of the "invoice is a trade secret" debate)
You strongly imply this model is wrong, and a prospective tipper should tip someone besides the salescritter who engendered your warm and fuzzy feelings...
O.K.... Whom?
Do we hunt up the GM? A senior salesman? The receptionist?
-Greg
[1] On the premise that they are either happy with their deal or looking elsewhere.
everyone has different buying habits....IsellH prefers to buy from local family owned retailers, does he pay more than Home depot? maybe but so what, that is where he likes to do business. I buy my clothes from Nordstroms. I can walk to the other side of the mall and buy the same stuff for less at Macy's but I don't like the store....so I pay more to shop at the retailer I prefer. Does than mean I'm getting ripped off?? Great service is a great deal for me...The same applies to car sales. Some folks will gladly pay more to have a quality dealership with quality salespeople...Other people will put up with lies, ineptness and all kinds of sleazy treatment to save ten cents then whine and complain about the process. Nothing wrong with either type of buyer...but often one side can't understand the other sides way of doing things.
There is a price point beyond which most people can't afford to buy from local family-owned retailers. Sure, an extra $40 bucks for a washer/dryer is no big deal. But where do you draw the line?
I'm building a new home. Home Depot quoted me 15% less than my local lumber yard for the Andersen windows I will need. Sound like a small premium for doing business locally? Maybe, but that 15% difference was nearly $4,000. The windows were delivered on time, undamaged, and the order was correct. How much better could the service have been? And would it have been worth an extra $4,000 to you?
I don't care how many times I get to shake the owner's hand or how great the customer service is at my local family-run lumber yard. I'll save the $4K any day. Maybe you and Isell have more money than I do....
You are making the false assumption that the Big Box offers the lowest prices. A lot of times they don't. And a lot of times, the low price does not bring the same product.
I can go to a big box and buy a washer/dryer for $100 less plus pay for shipping plus pay for installation plus pay for disposal of the new unit. Or I can pay $100 more and get the darn thing installed and the old unit disposed of.
It is everybody's choice on how they spend their money and with whom.
A Whirlpool washer model no. ABC123 is the same everywhere. When we were shopping for a washer/dryer, the big box stores were offering the lowest price on the highly-rated model we wanted before an additional 10% off, plus free delivery and removal of the old units. Local mom&pop couldn't touch it. If by 'installation,' you mean connecting the water hoses, then yes, I had to do that myself. Took ten minutes start to finish. If I were elderly or handicapped, free 'installation' might matter to me more....
you just don't seem to get it.....to some folks it's not about the money or cost of the item. If I don't like a retailer it wouldnt matter to me what the savings was.
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Then, afterwards, they come to the "Prices Paid" forums, wringing their hands as they ask..."did I pay too much?"
And, of course, someone will always come along and tell than that they did, indeed, pay too much.
I like bryan's way of doing business! It really doesn't have to be that difficult.
If you feel good when you drive out of the dealership, you got a "good deal"!
Every time I see one of those, I keep hoping no one else will respond, either...
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Once a deal is done. why ask and why try to make someone feel bad?
And, some of these so called prices people say they paid are pure fiction. I know the numbers that are....well....maybe and the prices that just didn't happen/
I'm not sure if people forget what they paid or simply don't tell the truth.
I think a lot of the "prices paid" posts are chest pounding.
i bet some people didnt get a great deal, but on the internet, you can be anonymous, so they brag that they got this insane deal...
i look at some of the numbers on here and just shake my head - if this is what some people are basing their transaction figures upon, they're in for a real treat when they try to buy a vehicle at that price...
-thene
My goodness! Nobody seems to be willing to admit that they might have left an extra $3.00 on the offer table, yet realizes they actually got a good deal.
Sure is a lot of folks who come out of the woodwork to tell about how they sure pulled one over on the dealer and got a steal... with an extreme amount of exaggeration.
go figure...
same people who haggle and fight for the last $100 are walking in the door with overpriced ralph lauren polos with wives who carry kate spade purses...
so as long as the entire public is being ripped off equally, then let the screwing begin?
hmm....
-thene
goodoutrageously great deals others have reported. :PQuestion... what about "up-to-the-minute dealer operation costs" and " up-to-the-minute salesperson average wages?" :confuse:
Salespeople used to ask each other about commissions after a deal was done whether it was out of simple curiosity... or even gloating, to a certain degree. Keep in mind, this is done in some aspect in almost every business( won the big game, locked in that elusive contract, no accidents for so many days.)
This doesn't happen any more. Most of the time everyone already knows what to expect... and I work extremely hard for my $100 per deal. I wouldn't expect any true compassion from the majority of consumers since it is already assumed that we're in the business to rip you off, but if you really knew everything that goes into a car deal.
After everything is said and done... the automobile business is changing for the better in a lot of ways. Just never seems to be good enough for some, even though it might be affecting others... on both sides.
If the consumer doesn't like the process of weeding through all the numbers to figure out what is really a fair deal, and the car salesman doesn't like their paychecks being hit so hard due to the consumer's increased knowledge - what should the ideal car selling model be?
Let's take isellhonda's recent washer/dryer purchase as an example. I am very curious as to how you actually bought them:
1. Did you do a minimal amount of research as to reliability and features, walked into the nearest store that sold them, and then just bought it?
2. Or did you price compare between a few stores and ask the salesman at a few of them about the machines? This is how many people buy cars, which you and others are complaining about. What about the time you took up from the appliance stores that you didn't buy from? Many appliance salesmen work off of commissions, or at the least, have their sales records tracked. Did you buy from the store with the best deal? If so, did you give any consideration that the paycheck of the salesman that helped you might be smaller because of the lower selling price? These are all the things many of you here are asking the car buyers to take into account.
My point is that if someone used method 1 for all their purchases, think of all the little bits of money they are over spending that could really add up. In our house, we spend about $1000 a month on consumer items (food, car payment, clothing, etc. - all things that we decide how much spend on). If I can save only 5% each month, that's $600 a year - a nice weekend trip filled with lifelong memories for our family, very much worth the effort to save everywhere I can.
Yes, I agree that some people can take method 2 to extremes ( and I have been known to do that), but for the most part, that is how many purchases, major or minor, are made. When someone comes up with a better car buying system that is implemented industry wide, I will be first in line.
So, in your opinions, what would the ideal and FAIR car buying system be from a seller's point of view? Set price? You work off of salary - not commission? Combination of the two? Any other ideas?
Umm.. how do you think they got the money? And, I don't call it stingy, I call it frugal and intelligent..
Hey.. when I worked in the bar business, I was a big tipper, as I related to the people that had to make tips to earn a living... I'm sure that you, as a commissioned salesperson empathize with people in that profession...
Just don't expect me to feel the same way... My money is my money.. Any money that I save, improves my standard of living.. You'd be amazed how much that adds up over time...
regards,
kyfdx
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though i do get your point, and it is a valid one ;-)
-thene
As we all know, it takes two hands to make a sound.
In the same vein, it takes two people to haggle. If a car sales person thinks a buyer is being stingy, the buyer probably thinks the same about the dealership.
In my opinion, people who complain about others being difficult to work with are the same ones who have the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way."
Long story short... after figures were presented in decreasing increments of $2,500 off and then $3,500 off, he demanded $100 over invoice on a vehicle which had a mark-up of around $4,600. Then he wanted the front windows tinted and nerf bars installed for free. I refused the freebies and he seemed disgruntled the remainder of time we spent together, even through delivery. :mad:
As I've said before... I work hard for my $100 per deal with no compassion towards my position. I guess my problem is that I sell cars and I'm compassionate to my customers. I get burned a lot in one way or another!!! I'm not one of the bad apples!!!
its amazing what people will do, and how little they care...
i didn't like being painted with the same brush as the sleezy guy with 14 gold chains and a rolex or two - i legitimately tried to help everyone who came in, but i was still the "bad guy"
its a frustrating job, but unfortunately someone has to do it...
-thene
I understand that someone is going to spend $20/$30/$40,0 big ones, but some folks get this crazy idea that the dealer keeps it all .. depending on the vehicle and the time of the year, they're lucky if they make 2% to 5%, and 80% of that just goes just to keep the lights on and pay the floorplan (and they better be selling a bunch of those to keep that figure going) .. see, profit is not a 4 letter word - and the word "fair" has to be used on both sides ...
Education is the best way for the consumer to get a better price ... that said, that doesn't mean reading 2 posts from Edmunds from the guy in Portland that say's he paid $1,500 under invoice on a new TL (which by the way, goes on all the time and confuse's many new buyers to these forums) or asking Bert the Barbecue salesman that used to be in the car biz 5 years ago and using that as the "barometer" of the pricing range ...
Saving money is a wonderful thing .. I guess what always surprises me, is that folks post they saved $150 by shopping 5 dealers in 2 weeks and traveled 80 miles to do it .. but that sword seems to swing both ways, these are usually the same folks that paid $359,000 for a $329,000 home or paid an extra $3,000 in closing costs, or like my neighbor that just paid $299 for a new golf club, but could have got it online for $150 .. this is also the same guy that didn't like new car prices and went to 4 different stores until he could find a dealer to sell him a new "ABC" vehicle for $300 less .... of course the dealer sold it to him for $300 less, it's "black" .. and a black car in the south, in August no less is the kiss of death and the dealer would have sold him the car for $2,300 less, I guess he showed me ..l.o.l...
Just like my Great grand Daddy used to say: "common sense isn't common" ......
Terry
SOB
He decided on a car (Subaru Foester: he likes my Forester). Now, he is shopping. For the last month...He had a good deal on an '05 (23200 for an LLBean), but he thought he could do better. I pointed out that it is $400 less than I paid for mine, and that the restyled '06's will be several thousand more. Well, he kept looking. Now, the only ones availble are the '06's, which run about 3K more....
Last weekend, I asked him how much time he spent on the car shopping. He said only 10 hours. I pointed out that if he took the inital deal (23200) he would have been able to make $800 more on work, and I think he got my point.
(when I bought mine, I just took the *internet* price, which was invoice - rebate (1600).
i guess whatever floats your boat...but it sure seems silly to me...
-thene
And, on top of that, some of the posters here are asking us to consider what the salesman makes in the process. My original question to the salesmen was if you considered other's salary from purchases you made - or do you go for the best deal for your family? I am just pointing out that this consideration has to work for all purchases involving commissions, not just for buying a car, otherwise it might be a bit hypocritical.
Would more level pricing between dealers of the same brands help make choosing a dealership more of a service issue, than a best price one? Maybe standardized pay scales, more like relator fees in home buying? From a seller's standpoint - what changes would you make from you side to improve or replace the current car buying process?
We looked at washers and dryers at Home Depot and Lowes. Ended up going back to a small mom and pop appliance store where we bought our dishwasher.
Didn't really shop price much and we probably paid a bit more than we would have at one of the chains. They do offer free delivery and installation and I like the concept of dealing with the owner. Not many of these places left and as a former business owner I just like giving them my business.
How to go about accomplishing a level pricing structure doesn't seem very practical to me. The condition of used vehicles varies. It might be feasible in the new vehicle realm, but didn't Ford Motor Company try that a few years ago and fail?
Just my thoughts, doesn't mean I'm right though. Personally, I hate shopping in general whether it's for new clothes or a new/used vehicle. And I don't have any desire to negotiate back and forth. But some people love to do that and it's part of the thrill. Everyone is just different. Until now, I haven't shopped for another means of transportation in 11 years (my '95 Accord EX has been wonderful for me).
To keep on topic: one way to measure a good deal might be when you are sure your price is pretty close, and you have a good feeling about the place and people you are buying from.
i agree with this, its not always about getting the best bottom line price. you may pay a bit more at a mom and pop store, but you know you'll get a great experience, support a local business, and get great service...sometimes thats worth more than an extra $200...
-thene
My wife and I are in the process of building a new home. If we bought all of our appliances and building materials strictly from mom & pop businesses that gave us a warm fuzzy feeling, the house would end up costing 15-20% more.
And, yeah...I probably paid an extra 40 dollars but it was nice to shake the hand of the elderly gentleman who manages to stay in business in spite of the Big Box stores people like you favor. Silly me!
Mmm, kinda surprised on this one... 10->20% of a median house is a nice->very nice car...
So, would the car dealers rather we shop at the big boxes then run out and buy a new car, or is the consensus to shop at the Mom&Pops while making do with Ole Bessie?
Myself, I'm O.K. spending a few hundred a year for what M&P gives you, but I like the effect on prices that the Boxen have. (Before you cry me a river, be ready to hate Sear & Roebuck's catalog back to the 18-somethings.)
Still, I
thinkknow I'd rather have a new house and a new car than one or the other.-Greg-the-greedy-shallow-materialistic-pig
In my opinion, people who complain about others being difficult to work with are the same ones who have the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way."
Amen! ESPECIALLY when someone's complaining about "small" things - If it's so small why are you fighting so hard?
I suspect part of this stems from the atrophied brains that "zero-tolerance" produces - Most folks under 40 grew under a rule-maker / rule-taker philosophy intentionally designed to be administered by the least capable staff member. I believe this leads to a mental fragility that does not easily allow for dynamic positions or compromise.
Anyway, I know there was a car discussion around here somewhere... Oh, yeah, does anyone think you should send your salescritter a thank-you note? If not, why did you buy from them?
same thought more modern tendency
I am a pretty cheap person, but we sent a $100 gift certificate to our last 'salescritter'. The sales manager and F&I guy weren't too good, but we liked the salesman a lot.
go figure...
That's why they have money... and "stingy" is a negative term... why not use "frugal?"
Cf. Millionaire Next Door by Drs. Stanley and Danko.
And, really, I'm tired of your insults.
If a consumer knew the figures they were trying to achieve were low enough to wipe out any type of commission percenteges... maybe then a little compassion for a good salesperson? Would consumers balk if gratuity was a standard practice in the car business? Would knowing that the price a consumer wanted results in a "mini" commission to the salesperson of $50 to $100 make a difference in expectations on both sides? What about time invested and great product presentation? Let me guess... we're still making money( usually said by a customer with a slight elbow nudge)?
As I've said before... I've sold many cars that I didn't sell. I line up the consumer with all the info and knowledge. Then they buy for a $100 difference somewhere else without even giving me last consideration.
It seems that the human factor gets burnt on all sides sometimes.
Consumer- Bad experience with a dealer, or salesperson... it happens.
Salesperson- Bad experience with a customer, or dealer... it happens.
Dealer- Bad experience with a salesperson, or customer... it happens.
The dealer ultimately makes some sort of profit at the deals that most customers are seeking these days... how about tipping your "good" salesperson that just worked for your "good" deal?
Any compassion? Are we just "car salespeople?" Not human?
Shaking hands with the guy who owns the dealership isn't worth paying more for a car.
I still haven't fouund what I'm looking for, but I did spot the salesman a $50 for his time even though I haven't bought yet. It was totally worth it in my book and the salesman appreciated the gesture, even if it may have only been a token amount. And I made sure I did this when it was a slow day on the lot.
In the restaurant industry, you tip your server and they in turn tip out whomever manages to negotiate a cut. I neither know nor care[1] whether the busser is tipped out or not. (echoes of the "invoice is a trade secret" debate)
You strongly imply this model is wrong, and a prospective tipper should tip someone besides the salescritter who engendered your warm and fuzzy feelings...
O.K.... Whom?
Do we hunt up the GM? A senior salesman? The receptionist?
-Greg
[1] On the premise that they are either happy with their deal or looking elsewhere.
There is a price point beyond which most people can't afford to buy from local family-owned retailers. Sure, an extra $40 bucks for a washer/dryer is no big deal. But where do you draw the line?
I'm building a new home. Home Depot quoted me 15% less than my local lumber yard for the Andersen windows I will need. Sound like a small premium for doing business locally? Maybe, but that 15% difference was nearly $4,000. The windows were delivered on time, undamaged, and the order was correct. How much better could the service have been? And would it have been worth an extra $4,000 to you?
I don't care how many times I get to shake the owner's hand or how great the customer service is at my local family-run lumber yard. I'll save the $4K any day. Maybe you and Isell have more money than I do....
I can go to a big box and buy a washer/dryer for $100 less plus pay for shipping plus pay for installation plus pay for disposal of the new unit. Or I can pay $100 more and get the darn thing installed and the old unit disposed of.
It is everybody's choice on how they spend their money and with whom.
This isn't a restaurant or a barber shop.