Just what is a good deal?

KCRam

Great story, Mack

kcram
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rivertown

A 'good deal', for me, is about price. Bought 'em at sticker; bought 'em a $100 over invoice; bought 'em at 20+% under sticker. All, good deals considering availability, competitor's prices, etc.

"Great deals" have been about catching sales managers in flat out flim-flams.

The "Best Deal": Salesman catches me in parking lot on the way out. He says, "Look, we can sell you the car at that price if you still want it." Loved that car. Loved that deal.

toyotaken

I just delivered a new Toyota MR-2 Spyder to a customer yesterday. It was paradise blue with the tan leather interior and tan top with the 6sp sequential manual shift. He had purchased the first MR-3 Spyder off of the truck when they first came out in 2000. His was a silver with black cloth interior and top with a 5sp manual. This had been a rough year for him as he is diabetic(like me) and had to go through another amputation of his leg. So now he has to prosthitic legs and couldn't drive his manual trans. MR-2. He traded his old one on the new one. He absolutely loved his old MR-2 so wanted something that was as close to what he had but with the sequential manual so that he didn't have to worry about the clutch and also wanted a slightly different color. When he drove it out of the shop (kept it inside where it was warm) he had the biggest grin on his face. Those are the customers who make my whole week. We had to go out of state to flat-bed in a vehicle in that met his specs., but the work was well worth it to see how happy he and his wife were as he drove his new, replacement MR-2 off of the lot.

Ken

prophet2

with the purchase is all that really matters, even though you'll likely hear from some BOZOS demanding to know what kind of price he paid for his new MR-2. All so that they can get the satisfaction of dumping on the guy for being a fool to have "paid too much," and calling you a conniving salesman for "excess profits." IT'S REALLY NONE OF THEIR D****D BUSINESS!

I am also diabetic (10 years) and hope that by following my regimen, I never reach the stage of amputation and needing dialysis. Keep up the good work and take care ........

isellhondas

Thank you!

Yeah, I'm sure there are people that read that uplifting post that figured the poor guy paid "too much"!

Aloha, brudder!

prophet2

It never ceases to amaze me how many people need to play "one-up-man-ship" when it comes to car purchases. They seem to think there's a prize for being the one who paid the lowest price.

These misguided fools are so busy shopping for the "deal" that they lose sight of the vehicle. That's why they're back on the lots a few years later, trying to unload an unsatisfactory car that they got such a "good deal" on. Sometimes they're "upside-down," or almost always "back of book" because nobody really wants their cars in trade. Then, they compound things by making the SAME mistake by "buying the deal" AGAIN, not the car.

We've had our '01 Odyssey EX for 32K stress-free miles now. Paid MSRP, which was $1.5K LESS than a Sienna XLE, a fine minivan which DID NOT meet our needs. Had the Toyota dealer "knocked-off" $1.5K to meet the Ody's MSRP, they still lacked features the Honda had (e.g. fold-down third seat, power sliding doors). Some were extra-cost items, or not available, from Toyota. Now, in its fifth year, Odys still have a TMV from Edmund's that exceeds MSRP.

Being isolated here in the Pacific, there are many one-dealer-only situations: Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Porsche, etc. So, "wheeling-and-dealing" tactics pitting one dealer against another does not happen here for those kinds of vehicles. While we don't necessarily pay the $43,500 MSRP of an Acura RL, the dealer doesn't sell them for $35,000 either because he doesn't have to! New RSXs were fetching $2000 over MSRP, as evidenced by a used '02 @$22,995 at another dealer. I just bought an '03 RSX (leather) for the $22,495 MSRP tab and am pleased with that deal.

We can't economically buy on the west coast. The sales tax in Washington and California is higher than the 4.17% charged locally. If we tried Oregon, the state here will assess us the tax unless we can prove we've brought in a used car. Add the freight charges and it's a losing deal for us, both FINANCIALLY and the BOTHER factor.

BTW, I'm putting on the finishing touches on five more "oldies" CDs. Watch your mail next week.

isellhondas

I've about worn out the ones you sent me!

mackabee

What are these cd's you guys are talking about? Am I missing out here?
                                      ; )
                              Mack

zueslewis

Kirstie_H

This discussion has been unearthed by popular demand.

heywood1

Let me tee it up with an opinion that will surely irk some salespeople we all know:

 

Just because a buyer is happy with his purchase doesn't mean he didn't overpay. In fact, he may be happy only because he DOESN'T KNOW. Ignorance really can be bliss.

 

Also, there is no comparing the market of new vehicles to that of existing homes. Unlike new vehicles, no two existing homes are exactly alike, let alone on the market at the same time, and available from several different dealers. And the person from whom you buy a house has no opportunity to make more money after the closing from parts and service--where the REAL money is made at any car dealership.

audia8q

So if a consumer is more interested in things other than the rock bottom lowest price your saying they are ignorant?

heywood1

Absolutely not.

 

But there's a big difference between someone who doesn't care whether or not you get a good deal, and someone who thinks they did.

 

And again, I'm NOT advocating this 'rock bottom' price strategy that everyone else seems to think I'm implying. But if a dealer doesn't tell you about the $1,500 rebate, and you pay MSRP, did you get a good deal just because your happy?

isellhondas

When both parties, buyer and seller are happy with the deal they struck, it was a "good" deal.

 

Not everyone worries constantly wondering if just maybe, someone else paid less than they did.

jipster

I always thought the dealer had to tell you of any rebates by law? Or, does that question belong in another board?If so please provide a link and I will post it there.

 

Reguarding getting a good deal.To a lot of people a good deal is getting a better price than everyone else..not only in their city, but their state....heck the whole world. I think anything around invoice is a good deal.

jipster

I thought the dealer informing the customer about any rebates was nesseciated by law.The dealer could not mention the rebate then take it for himself.When I bought new I had to sign a document indicating that the rebate was being sent to the dealer...who took the amount off my buying price.If you are under the average buying price for your area...then you got a good deal.$0-$500 over average would be so-so.$500-$1,000 would be poor...anything over a $1,000 and you start talking about the good friendly service you got.

heywood1

OK. I'm gonna try this one more time:

I am NOT talking about Monday-quarterbacking over whether a buyer left $100 on the table, let alone 'worrying constantly.' (Honestly, Isell, do you have a side-career of putting words in peoples' mouths?)

 

Hypothetically, if an uninformed little old lady pays MSRP for a low-demand, 120-day supply vehicle, and is happy about it, then she HASN'T overpaid? Only a car salesman would agree.

heywood1

I have had to inform MANY salespeople about the available rebate on a certain vehicle (or at least they CLAIMED ignorance).

rroyce10

...... Rebates is a manufacturer thing and that goes to the customer, now dealer cash is a different thing ...

 

            But lets change shoes for a minute .. you put your 01 30k Prizm LSI up for sale in your driveway for $9,500, and you get $9,500 for it .. you see the guy a week later at Church and he says: "I think I paid too much by $2,000" - what then.?

 

               I don't think Real Estate is a good example, because there is alot of folks spending $50,0/$80,0/$100,000 too much because the real estate guy has convinced them thats the going rate, and we won't even go into the "huge" difference in closing costs ~~ but thats an issue all to itself .....

 

                            Terry.

heywood1

I CERTAINLY don't think real estate is a good example-- that was my point. In another discussion, Isellhondas tried to compare the amount his home has appreciated over the years--and the corresponding profit he might realize if he sold it--to the profit a dealer makes on a car. [Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?]

 

And your Prizm hypothetical is for a used car. In my 'overpaying' example, I'm talking about a new car that has a widely-published and easily-knowable dealer cost.

isellhondas

I'll agree that Real Estate probably isn't a good example.

 

Let me ask you this question...

 

You have decided to sell your 2001 Prizm. You figure it's worth between 8000.00 and maybe 9500.00. Knowing how people love to haggle, you price it at the top of that range at 9500.00.

 

You've already decided that, if you had to, you would probably take 8700.00 for it.

 

A little old lady from your church sees your sign in the window on sunday morning. She loves the car and agrees to pay the 9500.00 you are asking.

 

Did she pay "too much"?

 

Would you offer to sell it to her for less?

 

If she buys the car and is happy with the car and the price she paid, is anything wrong here?

 

P.S. You didn't answer Terry's question.

rroyce10

...... The point is, you didn't answer the question .l.o.l... I guess you didn't like stepping in them shoes ...

 

          So lets use your criteria: **I'm talking about a new car that has a widely-published and easily-knowable dealer cost**

 

            Knowing the cost doesn't mean your going to pay the cost .. it's like boats, furniture or jewelry, I know the cost on a 37ft Formula S/S, but that doesn't mean I going to get it, a fair profit is needed, now the guy in Pa wants $9,500 more than the guy in Florida, does that make him evil.? it's his business and he can ask anything he wants - I just don't have to buy from him ..

 

               I just read an interesting article about the purchase of all of the new plasma, super screen TV's that will be sold between yesterday and Super Bowl Sunday night -- 1.2 million.! .. some will pay $3,500, some might pay $2,700, some might pay $3,900 ~ so what price glory .?

 

                              Terry.

heywood1

Well, Terry's question implies I asked $2,000 more than the used car is worth, and I would never over-ask for a used car like a Prizm by that much. So it's kind of a pointless question.

 

As far as your question is concerned: If the Blue Book/Edmunds/XYZ Price Guide says the Prizm is worth between $8000 and $9500, then $9500 is not too much. Again, this is a TOTALLY different situation because the owner's cost in a used vehicle is already 'sunk.' And used cars have different conditions and maintenance histories. All new cars are new. And the same two new cars have the same dealer cost. Edmunds TMV or CarsDirect aren't going to give you a target price of MSRP for a brand new, closeout 2004 Chevy Cavalier sedan--or even a routinely heavily discounted sedan like a Stratus or DeVille.

 

P.S. You haven't answered MY question, and I've asked it TWICE: If the little old lady pays the dealer MSRP for the brand new Cavalier/Stratus/DeVille, has she overpaid?

danf1

No she hasn't. She paid Manufacturer' suggested retail price. Similar to going to Bet Buy and getting a television that isn't on sale. If it was on sale last month did you pay too much?

isellhondas

I agree...MSRP is what the manufacturer thinks the car should sell for. If the little old lady is happy, great!

 

You didn't answer my questions either and it isn't a totally different situation.

 

By the way, I have asked the same exact question several times in the past and nobody has ever answered it.

heywood1

I'M GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME!!!!

 

I'm not disputing the likelihood that a buyer who is uninformed probably won't have buyers remorse, and IS probably happy. That DOESN'T answer the question of whether or not she's paid too much. PLEASE ANSWER!!!!!

 

Let's take that DeVille example. MSRP for a DHS with some options is around $51K. But the street price is around $42K. You think the little old lady hasn't overpaid at MSRP because she's happy and because GM suggests that's the price she should pay?

 

For someone who lectures here constantly about supply and demand, you're ignoring how 'the market decides' the street price.

 

And which question didn't I answer? I believe I did.

heywood1

I did answer the questions. You logged in before I had a chance.

 

BTW: How much 'fair profit' is needed on a Pontiac Aztec? In fact, that's the vehicle I should have used in my 'little old lady' example.

 

And I NEVER said profit was 'evil.' That was Isell putting words in the mouths of other people....

isellhondas

And I knew better.

rroyce10

..... Why do I even bother...?

 

              I should just put my head into a dumpster and enjoy the "aroma's of life" and just go on ........... ;^}

 

                                

 

                   

                                       Terry.

 

Kirstie_H

This topic is going to break the Edmunds.com record for shortest-lived conversation if the hostility doesn't disappear ASAP.

isellhondas

No hostility here. I just know when further discussion is pointless and this is one of those times.

Kirstie_H

Cool - that's the best way to handle it!

heywood1

I really don't get that analogy. Best Buy does not negotiate. Big-ticket items are a whole different ballgame. Most people enter a car or boat dealership with the expectation that negotiation will be required.

heywood1

I agree. I depends on the vehicle. But you seem to imply that because an auto dealership has overhead, a profit should be made on every car, no matter how undesirable.

 

So for my 'little old lady' example, I purposely selected some not-so-hot models with street prices that are substantially lower than MSRP. I think we can both agree that the street price for a Deville is about 20% less than MSRP.

 

Although it's certainly not a Pontiac dealer's fault that GM is building junk like the Aztek, but you can't expect him to make much of a profit on one either. He'll have to make it up on a GTO. On second thought, maybe not that one either...

heywood1

Because I don't want you to think I did not.

 

'If she buys the car and is happy with the car and the price she paid, is anything wrong here?'

 

In the narrowly defined parameters of your used car question, then no, there is nothing wrong. But your example is a matter of a few hundred bucks. And, to be fair, your scenario pretty much established that I was going to be satisfied with anything between $8700 and $9500 in the first place. (I'm probably not the best person to ask this anyway, because I'm one of those few people who asks what I want and I expect the same from other sellers. I don't want GM to SUGGEST a price just to see if I'm stupid enough to pay it, before they lower it to what they really need to get. I want them to tell me what they will TAKE for it, and save us both a lot of time).

 

MY example, I thought, depicted an uninformed buyer who overpaid by thousands. And I believe there IS a difference.

 

 

ronstoy

Reading a few older posts, I do feel that the salesperson is in a catch-22.

 

I personally would love to go into a dealership, after doing my homework, and say I'll pay $$$ for this car.

 

If the offer was accepted right away, the first thought I would have is that I offered too much. They were too willing to take the offer.

 

  OTOH if the sales person came back $500 more and I said "I am firm with the original offer" then came back and said o.k. I would feel I got the better deal, even if the salesperson planned on accepting the first offer to begin with, just to primp my "negotiating" skills I guess.

blh7068

"because I'm one of those few people who asks what I want and I expect the same from other sellers."

 

So, in other words you dont believe in negotiating in any way, shape or form?

 

"I want them to tell me what they will TAKE for it, and save us both a lot of time)."

 

Hmmm...sounds familar...otherwise known as a one price structure, Ford tried it and it failed.

 

Would a set price lower than msrp work for you, or would it be "too much" because you feel it is still "more" than they need to get?

 

Based on the content and demeanor of your posts, I'd say probably not based on the latter.

heywood1

I suppose it's human nature to think you paid too much if the offer is accepted right away, but it's wrong.

 

If I'm confident in the research I've done, and know the average lowest street price, I'm happy if my offer is accepted right away.

 

That being said, if the average lowest street price is MSRP, then I wait for market conditions to change to my advantage.

heywood1

Don't know what you mean about the content and demeanor comment (I'm not a salesperson), but I'll answer your question.

 

I hate wasting time for nickel and dime sales. Why should I have to advertise a used set of tires for more than want, just so I get what I want? If I want $200, I ask $200.

 

For larger ticket items, I expect--and don't mind--some negotiating. It can even be fun. But, for a $30K+ new vehicle, I like to 'cut to the chase' and start out within the $1,000-or-so range of where the final price will ultimately end up anyway.

 

You're right about the one-price structure as a failed model (at least in the auto business). Saturn couldn't hang onto it either.

bobst

If they accept your original offer, then you probably could have bought the car for less. That is what happened to us when we bought our last two cars.

 

If you were trying to compute the absolute lowest offer they will accept, then you made a mistake.

 

Well, so what? I have made many mistakes in my life, the worst being my vote for Jimmy Carter in 1980. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

Kirstie_H

For me, have the whole deal done & dusted in less than 2 hours is worth more to me than a few hundred $. In fact, I've signed a deal for $750 more than I intended to pay originally and walked out thrilled because I knew I was done for another few years.

 

By the Union of Top International Bargainers standards, I'm sure I paid "too much." But that's OK. I found the car I wanted, and was just happy that there were no F&I surprises. Price agreed, price paid, and I'm outta there. I really don't like the shopping process for any major purchase, so the quicker I can be finished, the happier I am. Everybody's different.

isellhondas

And I will remain that way after I leave this business. Some people agonize over every dollar and ***for me*** that is a miserable way to go through life.

 

Like kristie said...everyone is, indeed, different.

mirth

MY example, I thought, depicted an uninformed buyer who overpaid by thousands. And I believe there IS a difference.

 

I disagree. If the buyer is happy with the deal, who cares? There's nothing illegal or immoral about selling a car to one person for $18K, and the next for $16K (as long as nothing illegal happens, which is much less common than the local news shows want you to believe).

 

The "immoral" part comes in when people start throwing out hypothetical examples of people with no car knowledge and five starving children being forced to pay $3000 over sticker by the evil dealers. Sorry, but if you're that financially strapped, you probably wouldn't be able to buy a new car in the first place.

 

IMHO, of course.

heywood1

Although I'm not that way, I do think most people share that view. And it's unfortunate that they're willing to fork over more money to a dealer just because the nature of the transaction has become so repelling.

 

I wish my customers would pay ME more because they want to get out of my office!

mirth

...let's be realistic. The people paying sticker for invoice cars are not "trapped" in the dealership and "forced" to pay that. They just don't know cars or just don't care. I'd bet a lot of money that the MSRP buyers generally have a better sales experience and are happier with their car than the people clutching the most Edmunds, KBB, etc. print-outs. Yeah, they paid more for their car than the next guy, but they're happy. So who cares? Ignorance really IS bliss.

heywood1

Anyway, I certainly would not enjoy being part of any business whose survival depends upon on a certain percentage customers being grossly uninformed.

 

I know I couldn't sell a DeVille to an old lady for MSRP, but I'm sure there are some dealers who wouldn't hesitate. I'm also sure there are plenty of others who would offer a reasonable discount right off the bat that would still allow for a very nice profit.

 

The trick is to find those dealers who care about their long-term reputation.

Kirstie_H

I don't like any transaction that takes a lot of time, so it's not just the nature of that particular transaction that's repelling to me. I'm selling my house right now and will probably accept less than I could get for it just to be done with the whole mess. I'm also building a house and will pay a few $$ more for some work that I could probably negotiate.

 

If you're in a business where price negotiation is common, I probably would pay you more just to get out of your office... no personal offense to you, of course Hanging around waiting just isn't my bag.

isellhondas

Are the people who come to these forums AFTER they have bought a car.

 

" I just bought an XYZ and I paid XXXX. Did I get a good deal?"

 

Without fail, a "spoiler" will ALWAYS jump in and tell them they paid too much!

 

I just can't ever understand why someone would try to make someone feel bad?

 

But, then, I can't understand why someone would ask AFTER buying the car.

 

Even worse, some of the so called "prices paid" are too far fetched to believe.

heywood1

Absolutely. Time IS money. But you have to be able to afford the convenience. Not everyone can.

heywood1

'why someone would try to make someone feel bad?'

 

Funny, coming from someone who puts a lot of back-handed zingers in your posts.

 

But what you call a 'spoiler,'was already explained by those of us here not in the business as trying to alert those who have not yet purchased to what is--and isn't--a good target price.