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One policy that I like, although it is not my favorite retail store, is one that Circuit City has with their 30 day price match guarantee. They will refund 110% of the difference if you find a lower price on the exact item you bought there withint 30 days of the sale.
The technicians aren't certified by any manufacturer, you have no idea of they're ASE certified and all you get is a checklist of things they've supposedly done.
You're safer, in that case, buying private party.
They are also VERY successful as far as car dealers go. They have over 40 stores now. They didn't get that way by not offering something people wanted and by not standing by their product.
As for the technicians ... most of them are ASE certified. The certifications are posted on the service wall and you have every right to request the technician that you prefer.
So now you think that a reasonable expectation is that a dealer constantly advertise every single vehicle that they have in stock? What about the ones that could be factory-ordered? Geez, with Ford that would only amount to billions of possible variations.
We bought an orange 510 a week or so later, and drove it happily for 13 years.
: )
Mackabee
: )
Mackabee
They said they wanted the car they had driven, but the salesman said that was just a demo, and if they checked the serial number on their bill of sale they would see that this new car was the one they actually purchased.
Well, they drove away in the new car, and, as you can guess, it soon developed problems. The engine
made an irritating noise like a piston slap, and the Volvo representative said they couldn't do anything about it.
So the most important thing in getting a GOOD DEAL is to make sure you are buying the RIGHT car.
When you test drive a Mercedes and then pay for it, make sure the serial number on the bill of sale is not for a Taurus.
Bottom Line: JUST POST THE PRICE YOU ARE SELLING EACH CAR FOR ON THE WINDOW AND SELL IT FOR THAT EXACT PRICE TO ANYONE THAT COMES IN.
Robert Kennedy said that. I was intrigued when I saw a poster with that statement on it, and I bought it. Later on I realized that I am exactly the opposite.
I don't dream about how I would like things to be. I like to understand how they actually are, and then learn how to deal with it.
Some of us like the car-buying process just as it is. We have learned how to buy cars for a reasonable price and enjoy the process. You could learn too, if you wanted to.
Some of you are referring to price fixing (which is illegal) or some sort of collusion between the auto manufacturers (which would never happen). I do not think this is what BigOrange is advocating.
No one here will disagree that a product's price is determined by supply and demand. That's why retailers have "Sales" to move inventory during times of slow demand. They also have sales to try to get customers to shop at their stores instead of a competitor's.
If a $100 sweater is on sale on sale for $50 today, anyone that walks in off the street should be able to buy it for $50. Now, when the sale is over tomorrow, anyone who wants it will have to pay $100.
I think what BigOrange is saying is this: Let's say there is a car with an MSRP of $10,000. The dealer is having a big sales event and the OUR SALE PRICE sign on the car says $8000. Why can't anyone that comes in off the street just buy the car for $8000?
The way it is now, a person with absolutely no haggling skills will pay $8000. Someone with some haggling experience might get it for $7500. Somebody else with super haggling powers will get it for $6000.
Everyone should be able to get the same price regardless of supply and demand. If demand goes up, the dealer can adjust the price up and have everyone pay that new higher price.
I don't think BigOrange wants each dealer taking out 10 page ads listing the price of every car in inventory. He just wants a sticker on each car that says OUR PRICE and that would be the price that you pay. If you find that everyone is going to the dealer across the street because they're selling it for less, than lower your price (but lower it for everyone).
BigOrange, am I understanding your idea correctly? If I got it all wrong, just disregard this post. I'll just crawl back into my cave and continue monitoring the lively discussion here.
I personally like the current system because it helps me get the best price for my efforts. If I'm a better haggler and I do a better job of researching the car I want, I should get the better price. I could care less what other people pay.
I just want to say thanks to the all the salespeople on Edmunds. It always helps to know what the other side (THE DARK SIDE!!! Just kidding ...) is thinking.
Have a good weekend,
Peter
As I said in my earlier example, let's say I've got all my inventory tagged with "Our Price" and a customer says to me, "You know, ABC Motors has this for $300 less." Am I supposed to say "Sorry, I can't sell it for anything less than this price tag"? How about if I choose that moment to change that car's price tag? Will there be a penalty for changing the price? Who exactly is supposed to enforce this? Will I be allowed to change my price tags only on Thursdays? Is there a time limit for keeping the price the same?
The mistake that many people make is comparing a business that may sell hundreds or thousands of low-priced items per day with one that sells 2 or 3 high-priced items per day. It should be obvious that the same pricing strategies won't apply to both.
Landru: The penalty for changing that price would be one of getting back to where we are now and the car salesmen losing their reputation. They need to have enough discipline to keep that from happening. However, a price matching policy similar to Circuit City's and others may work. I have even seen some stores say "We'll honor other stores advertised sale prices" or "We'll accept other store's coupons" Maybe that kind of policy would satisfy you.
At the same time, it would be easier to change the price tag on one car than it would be to change all the price tags on a 100 sweaters!
I guess in the "Same price for everyone world", you would lower the price by $300 if you could still make money at that new price. Now, if that customer walks, the next person to come in off the street should be able to buy it at that new price.
In the end, I think it is safe to assume that the current way of buying and selling cars is the best way.
Why? If there was a better way, a revolutionary different way that made car buyers do backflips, a dealer out there would be doing it. Why wouldn't he want to steal customers away from the other dealers in the area?
The bottom line is that every dealer is a business, not a charity. They need to make money to survive, expand, and improve their service. You can't retain good salespeople without compensating them accordingly.
The consumer needs to save money. So, the buyer needs to do his or her homework and get the best price that the market will bear.
I wonder what it's like to be on the other side of the desk. How easy/hard is it to get a sales position at a dealership? Are there a lot of part-time sales people? I have a full time job, but I wouldn't mind earning a little extra on the weekends.
Any advice on landing a car sales job in the NY-NJ area?
Person A comes in, sees $100 sweater marked down to $50, thinks "What a deal!" and buys it. OR Person B sees same sweater, carefully inspects it, finds a missing button, asks for manager and asks for another $10 off, and gets it.
The aware, alert consumer who's not afraid to ask for a better price can often get it. . . It's not just the car business.
: )
Mackabee
I can see it now, a salesman thinking to himself, "Hmmmm, I could sell this car for a lower price, make the customer happy, and make a sale or I can send him on his way but at least my reputation will still be OK."
I can see the customer too, "Boy I'd really like to buy from Bob here but his price tag is $300 higher. I guess I better just go buy it from that jerk I met at ABC Motors. After all, I wouldn't want to damage Bob's reputation."
viper,
Nice to see some common sense here. Part of the problem with car sales is that is so easy to get into. Almost anybody can get in, unfortunately. It is not a part-time business, however. If you sell a truck on Saturday, how do you get the running boards installed on Monday, deliver it on Tuesday, and follow-up with the customer on Thursday?
Does the customer really have to know that I work part-time though?
What do you salespeople think about selling a car without ever meeting or shaking hands with the customer?
Someone I know bought a Quest through Carsdirect.com. He did everything by web, telephone, and FedEx. At the end, his car was delivered to his house on a flatbed truck. The driver asked if he needed to explain any of the options and features on the car. My friend said no and just tipped the guy $20 for delivering the car. The whole transaction took less than a week.
I was just thinking if Carsdirect can do it, why couldn't I sell a car like this working for a bricks and motars dealership?
Another way would be for me to sell the car on Saturday/Sunday and have another salesperson at the dealership take care of the delivery during the week. If someone helped me out like that, I would split the commission with him.
Anyway, I'm going home. Nice talking to you guys.
Have a good weekend.
landru: I didn't say that the price would necessarily be higher than they get now ON AVERAGE. I want them to set it at the average price they are get today and give that price to everyone. Every buyer eventually feels bad about his deal because he finds someone that got a better one on the same car. He reads on the internet about someone that got one for $1000 less than he did even though he negotiated hard and long for that price.
Here is my deal. I want to be able to negotiate on behalf of a consumer and let the new franchised dealer sell them a car. Do I still need to be a licensed dealer to do this? Think of of it as a referral service. I want to go out get the best prices for people and then negotiate on their behalf until the deal is closed while the whole time they are in control of every aspect of it. Can someone clerify if this is still considered a auto broker or a auto referral service? Thanks!
John
Just when these forums were getting stagnant, a couple of "experts" burst on the scene!
It is, indeed, amusing.
: )
Mackabee
Let me explain. I am a consumer. I buy a lot of retail products. When I go shopping, I am looking for quality, function and price. Beyond that though, I want to be sold. I will pay more for a product if a salesman can explain to me why the price is what it is.
A few years ago, I decided I wanted a pair of boots. I went to three different boot stores. I told the salesmen that I wanted to spend no more than $150. I was shown boots that cost under $150. I wasn't crazy about any of them. They were OK, but nothing special.
Then, I went to another store and told the guy my goal. He smiled and said, "I've got some boots for $150, but are you sure you don't want to step up a bit?" Why? "Well, I've got some Luchases on sale for $299 and you can't beat the quality of a Luchase." Really? "Sure, they have lemonwood pegs in the soles, metal arches that conform to your foot, unlike plastic, yadda yadda yadda." He spent the next 5 minutes telling me everything that was superior about his $300 boots. After all of this, he encouraged me to try on a pair. He had me all worked up over these boots. I slipped them on and they felt like slippers. I was done.
Those boots had much more value to me because of what the salesman added. Had I bought them without the sales pitch, they would still be as comfortable and as high quality. What I wouldn't have is the information as to why they felt so good and that created value for me. I got a great deal because of how I felt about them.
The deal is perception. It always will be.
that's the arrangement that GM has for its supplier employees at participating GM dealerships.
can buy metros, cavaliers and the like for special pricing of 5-10% over invoice...
it's supposed to be super-secret, but regular GM customers should know they're getting reamed.
Ah ... no. She's buying a 2003 Mazda Protege LX (4-dr, AT, AC) via a credit union "deal" for 19K OTD! Not even taking advantage of Mazda's 0.0% 60 month financing!
Now, the Protege's a nice car, but $19,000? Not to mention the depreciation factor. Personally, the "no-haggle" credit union price isn't so hot for buyers. It isn't even a Protege vs. Civic question anymore.
She's not listening to reason, but is completely spooked by the experience of suffering a theft and is impatient to acquire a new car. Why? Since the insurer has settled so quickly, she has to return the rental vehicle. She's also motivated by the fact that Hondas are at the top of the most-stolen vehicles list and she fears becoming a victim again. So, the extra $2K hit on the price seems to be worth it for her to be in a "less-desirable" car.
You are making an assumption that the sales person adds significant value to a mass manufactured product. I guess in some special cases it would be theoretically possible, but rare. With all due respect to the few, I have yet to run across this miracle car salesman. At best, I have found some genuinely polite, helpful people, but they are rare. I did, however, find some really nice Toyota sales people today (unfortunate, I had to drive 35 miles farther than the closest dealer). I have far more salesperson horror stories, than I have good experiences.
But no matter how I am informed about a car, I would feel unhappy, if by making a few calls, I could have saved $1000. That's a bit pricey for an hour of conversation.
Finally, I've heard the relative value argument before, but it seems more appropriate for rare or unique items. Cars are a commodity.
Forget about car dealers for a minute and think about all the private parties out there selling their own vehicles. If they were selling a "commodity" they would all be getting the same price. But they don't. Some are able to sell the same car for more money. How do they do it? Could it be they have superior selling skills? Like knowing their target market? Like detailing the car to make it appear more attractive? By having all the repair history ready for the prospective customer to review? By appealling to the buyers emotions?
To me, a bolt in the bin at Home Depot is a commodity. A load of topsoil is a commodity. But call cars whatever you want. It won't change the fact the person selling the car can have a great influence on its pricing.
Also, detailing approves the apparent condition of the car, which can make it more valuable. As for pure persuasivness, it fails the more information becomes available. The more informed the buyer, the less the pitch matters. Does value increase for the foolish or deluded?
Between a Civic and a Protege (and I have driven both), I would take a Protege any day of the week. It is far more comfortable and a smoother drive. Would I pay 19k for it? NEVER. Of course, I wouldn't pay 17k for a Civic either.
Landru -
For some of us, a car is nothing more than transportation. When I am looking, usually any of more than a dozen models will meet my needs and then it comes down to price and condition. I am not willing to pay any more for a particular brand (although there are some models and brands that I will avoid.
I will agree that I am a sucker for a car that has been properly detailed and runs well.
To illustrate this further, one of her friends picked up a nearly-new 2000 Protege LX a year ago with 6500 on the odometer for $13,600 OTD. So, $19K is a bit steep in my stimation.
BTW, her friend's Protege was subject to an attempted break-in about four months ago. Door lock cylinder damaged, but the alarm scared off the would-be thieves.
Am I unique? Hardly. I would say that I represent probably 20% of the vehicle buyers.
I don't view vehicles as sexy nor do I gain my status from what vehicle that I drive. Most of the cars that I have purchased have been bought sight unseen but thoroughly inspected.
I have bought my last five vehicles from three salespeople. The process usually takes 15 minutes as we are usually within $1k of the purchase price on say, an $8k vehicle.
Personally, I prefer to buy in a place where I am dealing with someone who can make a decision right there as opposed to playing the salesman/ sales manager/owner game. However, for the right price, I will play that game.
I have dealt with some great salespeople and some bast*** liars. Relying on a sales pitch or the salesman's knowledge proabably means that you haven't done your homework. It also put you at a competitive disadvantage.
I will admit that if I was a new vehicle purchaser, I might take a different approach. However, given the state of the current market where nearly every model loses between 35-60% of its value in the first 24 months (per the Wall Street Journal and a number of other reputable sources), I can't see making such a poor financial decision.
Having conceded that there are some good salespeople, I have found these to be in the minority, and I've looked at a lot of cars in the past 10 years. There are many young, inexperienced types who don't read the manual, but hang out looking for a quick commission. They are uninformed, pushy and obnoxious. And somewhere, these guys get the idea that somehow that their time is worth hundreds of dollars an hour.
If I am unique, explain edmunds, explain internet shopping, explain competitive pricing. Look at all the stories and complaints about car dealers. Where there are so many stories, there is almost always some basis in fact. Look at the Edmund's report on traditional vs. internet car buying. A guy who can sell a pig in a poke is valuable all right.....to his employer.
Back to your comments to me (and I do appreciate the respectful disagreement), if I found the same boots at a discount place for 50% less I probably would not think I got ripped off. I genuinely do place value in information and the guy at Boot Village provided that to me. I would look at it this way: The if I had first stopped at the discount place, I would not have paid $200 for those boots because I wouldn't understand the value. It was not until the guy at Boot Village revealed the value that they became worth $300. Further, just because somebody is selling them for $200 doesn't mean that is what they are worth.
Now, on to you jlawrence. I assure you that 20% of the buyers out there are not appliance buyers. In fact even the "appliance buyers" are not what they claim to be any way. A guy claiming "its just a way to get from point 'A' to point 'B'" will opt for a decent stereo and a power seat if given the opportunity. It isn't too difficult to get these folks to crack a smile on a test drive when he realizes how much nicer the commute will be in the new car.
In a given month, I settle between 50 to 70 new car deals. In all honesty, there is rarely more than one that is truly completely emotionally detached from the car. They are generally pretty uninteresting people to begin with.
But, and forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, since you know so much about Toyotas, is there any substantial mechanical or ride difference between the Lexus LX 470 and the Toyota Land Cruiser. Forget stereos, leather, wood and prestige -- go for tight ride and competence.
Again, with all due respect, I would not pay substantially more for a good salesperson. I will leave a dealer with bad one, and continue doing business with dealers with good ones. Hopefully, both the salesman and the dealer benefit from that.
Regards.
The bottom line is that if dealers could sell the same number of cars for the same prices without salespeople they wouldn't have salespeople! Seems pretty obvious.
Every dealer in my area that tried "no-haggle" one-price methods, non-commissioned sales reps, and a "no-ADM" policy soon abandoned those strategies - consumers still wanted to haggle. So, back to square one!
Saturn's one-price marketing is on MSRP, but the haggling is done on the trade.
BTW, no difference other than trim between the LX and LC... other than superior service form the dealers (in general).
Excepting a few stripped down models that I have seen on a few used car lots, most of the cars are now equipped with most of the comfort equipment that I want so that is not an issue.
I think that in general, the salesman have little influence in what I am going to buy. Most of my test drives have been on my own, alone in the car or with my mechanic. The sales personnel at the dealerships know this preference and they are cool with it. They sell the car in maybe ten minutes.
I don't like the Saturn/CarMax model. I think that their prices are outrageous for the products that they sell.
And my shoes cost $40 and they are comfortable.
I'm from California and have met slimebags, liars and a lot of flakes.
Still...life is short. I'm the kind of guy who doesn't worry that I just might have paid more for something than someone else.
But...that's me. To others, MONEY is everything!
I get a REAL kick out of the couple of new "experts in automotive sales" we have on board.
In ANY free enterprise market, you cannot and will not get two freely operating businesses (ie: two car dealerships owned by two different people) to collute and comply with each other in order to sell a product at a price that can be beaten elsewhere by any percentage. Both places, while intentions my be great, would fail due to competition.
One guy says "Well, all the dealers would have to agree". Uh, no they don't. That would be a monopoly situation and consumers would be stuck with sharp sticks like OPEC is doing with gas and oil.
This concept, while intentions may be great, is flawed beyond comprehension. If someone can beat a price by $5, a dealership would lose business and there's no way to control that.
To the new guys: go back to school, take a few math courses and some business administration and realize that businesses need to profit in order to stay alive.
BUSINESSES CANNOT SURVIVE ON "WARM FUZZY FEELINGS" ALONE (getting together and selling for the same price to make up for the dummies who are behind the power curve and can't get informed and negoatiate like the rest of us).