With shop labor rates pushing and sometimes exceeding the 100.00 per hour rate, it can get into the big bucks in a hurry.
Those V-6 Eclipse's are NASTY to work on. The plugs, if I remember correctly are a miserable job to replace. The platinum plugs aren't cheap either. Add an air filter and a few adjustments and the 200.00 number can be reached in a hurry.
I can't imagine what a head gasket job would be on one of those!
buying them at list from the parts department, single-platinum motorcrafts. but you get almost 50 percent discount because motorcraft found out there is a very small market for 13 dollar plugs. factory HV wire kit lists over $250, so no wonder they don't sell a lot of those (they keep a few for warranty work.)
if you want the OEM, you pay through the nose. used to be sold in other parts stores until something like 10 years ago, when they decided to circle the wagons and protect their margin on lower sales.
you can spend about as much as you want on first-line aftermarket parts like bosch as well, but if you or your mechanic look around, there are better deals. when your mechanic does so, and sticks with a quality parts line, he can win twice... be your friend with an acceptable price, and also keep HIS margin. at the bottom of it all, ain't no business if the guy can't make his profit margin.
Was just notified that the cost of performing the first "major service" (30K miles) on my wife's 02 envoy will be in the neighborhood of $550. It sounds like they will be doing a fair amt of work, but $550 sounds like a lot too. I know I haven't supplied a lot of specifics, but does that number sound about right?
Wow, I'd like to know what all they are going to do. The 30,000 mile service is basically an oil change.
Envoy 30,000 mile service
Inspect Brakes and Traction Control Fluid - Differential Inspect front/rear axle fluid level and add fluid as needed. Inspect constant velocity joints and axle seals for leaking.
Replace Fuel Filter (E) Oil Change engine oil and filter as indicated by the GM Oil Life System (or every 12 months, whichever occurs first). Reset the indicator. Never drive the vehicle more than 16 000 km (10,000 miles) without and oil and filter change. The system will not detect dust in the oil. If the vehicle is driven in a dusty area, be sure to change the oil every 5 000 km (3,000 miles) or sooner. Oil Filter, Engine (E) Rotate Tires
(S) = Service Warranty Requirement (E) = Emission Warranty Requirement (B) = Both Service and Emission Warranty Requirement
The Serv Tech related that they were going to do more than just what you described above. I wish I wrote it all down (induction something??). I need to call him back to get a more detailed list for the purposes of this discussion. When I do, I'll pass it along, but my recollection was that they were doing far more than just the 'oil change'.
cleaning (fuel injector service), not usually needed at 30k unless you're towing big loads on a dirt road all the time, combined with using swampwater for fuel...
Many dealerships are trying to add engine flushes and transmission flushes to their 30, 45 and 60k services - great profit generators, but I think they do much more harm than good. In addition to not being recommended or mandated by the manufacturer, they usually aren't endorsed by the manufacturer in any way.
These flushes have been debated here several times and the consensus seems to be that if particles are "flushed" from your cylinder heads and other areas, and the oil pan isn't removed and the oil pump screen cleaned (guarantee that's not happening for $79.95), you end up with particles and gunk blocking the oil pump screen and oil flow to the pump and through the engine, effectively killing the engine, or at best, shortening its life significantly.
The best thing to do is go by the warranty/maintenance guide...if it's listed, have them do it, if not, have them forget it, because it's not truly necessary.
Also, if there's something like "inspect drive belts and coolant hoses" as an additional charge, pay close attention to a standard oil change - those things are usually included and shouldn't be dropped into a 30k with an added charge just to pad the bill...
Here is what's in the $550: * change oil/oil filter * rotate tires * change air/fuel filter * inspect front/rear brakes (can only imagine what kind of "inspection" that is!) * flush/replace brake fluid * power flush something else ... can't remember * full induction
I think that's it. There may be more but he didn't say. I think I'll go into the owner's manual and see what all else might be in there.
"full induction" refers to an induction cleaning - not recommended by the manufacturer and not necessary.
Same with the "power flush" (no matter what they're flushing)...
As for the brake fluid, I find it hard to believe that brake fluid would need a flush and replacement at only 30k miles...I doubt it's recommended - perhaps "checking" the brake fluid, which requires 1.5 seconds to look at the see-through master cylinder reservior...
Other than the fuel filter (I recommend at 15k intervals, unless it's the sock type where you drop the tank), you're looking at an oil change and tire rotation - $50?
$100 with the fuel filter, if it's a canister-type filter?
In other words, $450 of the $550 is profit for the dealer and hours for the tech - while I'm not opposed to legitimate hours for a tech, by any means, doing unnecessary and non-recommended services for the sake of profit isn't legitimate hours...
Here is what's in the $550: * change oil/oil filter * rotate tires * change air/fuel filter * inspect front/rear brakes (can only imagine what kind of "inspection" that is!) * flush/replace brake fluid * power flush something else ... can't remember * full induction
I think that's it. There may be more but he didn't say. I think I'll go into the owner's manual and see what all else might be in there.
"As for the brake fluid, I find it hard to believe that brake fluid would need a flush and replacement at only 30k miles...I doubt it's recommended - perhaps "checking" the brake fluid, which requires 1.5 seconds to look at the see-through master cylinder reservior..."
I must disagree there. Brake hydraulic system flushing is a legitimate maintenance service. Read this:
3 years is 45k miles, on average - I question the validity of this service in a 30k plan.
You'll see this service offered in every 7500, 15k and other service in many dealerships.
I think, based on my experience, that the brake fluid change should be a 45 or 60k service item, with a normal use vehicle, in normal climates - high humidity, high altitude, and nasty, dirty conditions are the exception.
I'm amazed at how many people are presented with horror stories about how their brakes will fail immediately if that bad fluid isn't evacuated this very minute...while the service advisor asks for an extra $100 on a service at 15K!
I change nearly all my vehicle's fluid annually, save for differential transfer case stuff, which is synthetic (installed shortly after break-in) and goes two years.
right driftracer....and as you well know, any suggested service from a manufacturer's handbook is inflated by at least a year. While it is good to get the toxins out of the brake line in order to reduce corrosion inside the line, I think one can easily stretch the flushing service to every 4-5 years. Remember, the manufacturer's are in the business of making money. I always take their service recommendations with a grain of salt, recognizing that if I am driving in some horrendously extreme conditions that the owner's manual is there to remind me that car's have needs too. Nonetheless, people take preventative maintenance waaaayyy too seriously sometimes; which is shocking in itself since the average American keeps their car less than 4 years now. With that type of financial recklessness, why bother with any (other than oil changes) preventative maintenance in those first 4 years??
One way (imprecise, but it's a "way") is to look at the brake fluid reservoir. It should be as clear and bright as honey...any discoloration or grunge and it's outta there....I agree, 4 years is pushing it regardless. I do my used cars right off when I buy them (unless it's listed in the repair records as having been done recently) and then every 30K, which is about 3 years for me.
The list I posted for the 30k service is from the manufacturer's information. Why they want to do more than the OEM recommendation is beyond me.
I will agree with Alcan though, if you are in a humid area, the brake fluid wouldn't be a bad idea. Also, there aren't any manufacturers that recommend any "power" flushing of trans or engine. Somewhere here at Town Hall, I posted a TSB from GM on flushing and GM's stance on flushing.
Front/Rear brake inspection is pulling the rear tires and if drum brakes, pulling the drum and inspecting the brake shoes. If disk, then all they do is look at the calipers, and pads.
I totally agree with driftracer on the induction cleaning. Unless you are in California and running flex fuel or oxygenated fuel, then at 30k, is a total waste of money.
don't we? on the new car invoice, it's called EDP. in the Consumer Reports magazine, EDP is Extra Dealer Profit. "dealer packs" come from every corner of the business, and it's your job as a customer to say NO, I am not going to have the stones in the tire treads washed and waxed.
I am surprised they aren't doing a wallet flush, rotating the turn signal bulbs, and topping off the blinker fluid as well. these are essential cash recycling tasks
I have a question regarding scheduled oil changes. My '02 CRV OEM recommendations are to change oil only every 5000 miles, even on the hazardous driving schedule. My dealership, along with the rest of the world, it seems, disagrees and believes every 3000 miles are necessary. I'm now running into the same issues with the 30,000 mile scheduled maintenance, where my dealership recommends everything under the sun (similar to the Envoy owner's posts) and yet the OEM guides have far lower standards. Is this just a ploy to get me to spend more at the shop?
Yes. The manufacturer employs many engineers who determine which services are required at which intervals. The dealership has only one criteria, increase net profit.
elf: go to the oil discussion under the maintenance and repair link on the town hall home page. There you will see that there is a different opinion for just about every person on this planet regarding this issue. So here's mine, he, he, he..... my owner's manual has the same claim: change oil ever 5k. When I use conventional oil, I use a 3,500 mile interval. Sometimes I've let it go to 4k; no big deal. 3k is really the minimum amount of time you need to change your oil out. After owning my cars a short while, I always switch to Synthetic. I use a 6k interval for my changes with synthetic. Bottom line from me: at 5k under heavy driving conditions in a dirty enviornment, your dipstick will be pretty dark, and you better have a better than average oil filter trapping particulates if you go that long. Nonetheless, I change my own oil; if I didn't, and went to one of the overpriced grease pits, I might consider stetching the interval a bit too. But I'm sure I'd be sorry, since the filters they use probably give out after 3k, which is why they tell you to come in every 3k. Go read some other posts here in Edmunds. No one person's answer is ever the same. That's because if you don't have the ability to do a moisture-viscocity-dirt analysis of your oil, it becomes a guessing game.
Well, I have always changed oil at what ever the manufacturer specs it at. If OEM says 5,000 miles, then 5k it is. If OEM says 3,000 miles, then 3k it is. Some folks are making way too much of this. The manufacturer creates these interval tables for a reason. On my 70 chevy 4x4, I change the oil at 3-4k. Mainly because I know that the older v-8s tend to create a little more soot in the oil. My wife's Impala, gets changed when the light comes on saying to change it. I'm lazy, what can I say. Does it make any difference whether I change at the light or mileage? Not that I have found.
Go by the manual as to mandatory maintenance. The dealer's schedule is always more maintenance as he has boat payments to make. All that the waranty requires is what is in the manual, not the dealer's service dept.
I have an '01 Honda Accord V6-EX which I need to take in for it's 30K scheduled maintenance. The dealter quoted me a total of $415 for this service. According to Edmunds, this same service should cost me around $186.
Edmunds itemizes the costs for parts and labor for each item which is very very helpful. However, they only provide dollar figures for labor without providing any info about the hourly rate which they are basing those figures on.
I need to know what average hourly rate they are using to compute their labor costs for my zip code 52246. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
maintenance guide seems to overestimate the price of some maintenance intervals, and underestimate others. I am not sure it properly figures the labor charges, which are at a very high hourly rate in California.
One of the car mags recently did its one-year round-up on its Mini Cooper, and they were waiting for the light to come on to do oil changes. In more than 30K miles they only did two oil changes: the light came on at 12,xxx and just over 30K (18,000 miles later!!!!) and that was it. Possibly oil change intervals can be extended more than some think...I read that oil change places "are finally abandoning their 3K interval recommendations in recognition that most cars can go at least 5K between changes now", but I see no evidence of that out in the world. I go 5K myself (the manufacturer's "severe use" interval, and oil is the only item where I follow this schedule because oil is so cheap to change).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
On my Altima, the only difference between the "severe service" and the regular interval is the spacing of the oil changes (3750 miles instead of 7500).
On my dealer's recommended service schedule, they want $400 for a 30k service and $600 for a 60k service. The 30k includes a coolant flush (Nissan specifies the first drain and fill, not flush, at 60k), and the 60k includes a spark plug replacement (which isn't due until 105,000 miles). I avoid going there whenever possible, and do most of the maintenance work myself.
recommends masses and masses of stuff at intervals that are way more frequent then what the book specifies. So I go by the book. The dealer's cheapest service is $135 - when I went in and said I just wanted a tire rotation and oil change, the guy tried TWICE to write me up for the "minor service" (all $135 worth). Forget it. I ended up spending $65, which included a wash in and out and a vacuuming.
They also have an "intermediate" and a "major" service. The way I see it, they do so much extra stuff that it will probably never require a "major" service. It might get an "intermediate" one at 110K when everything goes (plugs, long-life coolant, etc).
Their defense? "Our service recommendations meet or exceed the manufacturer's requirements". I think the operative word here is "exceed".
In my car, lots of stuff gets changed twice as frequently (filters, fluids) under the severe schedule, not just the engine oil. But the manual goes on for like a page, with BOLD LETTERS and everything, about how unless your driving is MAINLY in the severe category, to use the normal maintenance schedule. I don't tow, all the roads I drive are paved, and my commute involves no stop and go (and is more than 5 miles each way), so I go with the normal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Dealers rarely go by the owner's manual, their schedule is always more frequent and always claim that their climate is "severe". Their goal is to get you in the bay anyway they can and once in there sell you on more service, whether needed or not. Just go by the owner's manual, that is where your warranty lies, not in the dealer's boat payment due at the end of the month
My diagnostic test came back from my Check Engine Light coming on, indicating that my catalytic converter is in need of a replacement. Honda warranties that part up to 80K miles. Unlucky for me I just hit 91K. I believe that the limited warrantee is crap, since Honda knows that part generally goes any time around 80-90K miles. Has anyone else had a similar problem and been assisted with compensation from Honda after significant customers complaining? Or how much have you been charged for the replacement? The quotes I got from the deal as opposed to my trusted outside technician are a good $300 difference.
I've seen to support your angered claim that Honda catalytic converters fail just after warranty - most last the life of the car, although one tank of bad fuel (not the manufacturer's fault) or lack of maintenance can kill a converter.
Look for an aftermarket unit instead of a Honda unit, and shop around, not even thinking about paying the $300-400 that Midas or Meineke are quoting...
but sounding like you're looking for a lawyer for a class action suit is totally unnecessary.
Both boy's cars have universal cats, legal in 50 states, and paid $55.00 each for them - they're made by Dynomax, are 2.5" diameter to match their custom fabbed exhaust systems, and I got them from Jeg's Racing.
JC Whitney has non-high performance cats from around $90.00.
just curious, Drift, but where do you go for a custom exhaust? Private shop or major chain? I once asked Midas if they'd do it and they said no. I thought that was strange. I mean, if an exhaust specialist won't do it, who will?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
and moreso the ability to actually bend pipe creatively.
I have a guy who owns a tuning shop who goes to Meineke and bends it himself. Both my boys' cars run custom 2.5 inch full systems with high flow cats.
My new truck will have a 4" system, and the EVO or STi (next spring) will run 3" (all custom).
I miss being back home in Texas where EVERY shop does custom exhaust, and it's cheap!
With the chain shops that shy away from custom work, it's about them not being able to bend properly - it's easier for them to charge you astronomically for a prefab exhaust section specifically for your vehicle that goes on with nuts and bolts...
I don't know what year is your Honda. Just let you know Honda extended emision warranty(cat included) to 14yr/150K mi on 95-97 Accords.I have 95's with 122K mi and I just passed emision test with no problem. Ye, call Honda reginal office and ask for some goodwill consideration, with so close mi you may get some.
Have 2000 Pontiac G/P w/ 50K under light throttle position going up a grade the converter locks and unlocks several times before finally locking up. In reading up I understand the Pressure Control Solenoid may be bad. One article indicated this is a $54.25 part plus $299 labor. My Pontiac dealer says it's an 8 hr job closer to $567 in labor. Plus he indicates valve body probably needs replacing and a front end alignment. Am I getting ripped off or is that the cost. Could it be something else? Can't American manufacturers make a transmission that will last more than 50K?
The labor for the repair is about 4.5 hours, so the first quote seems more in line.
But before you go through with the repair, I would suggest changing the trans fluid and filter. Get a bottle of TransX and add it (read directions), then run it for about 3 or 4 days, then change the fluid. If it is sediment build up, it may clean it out. If not, then it was worth a try.
A/T - 4T65E Harsh Shifts/Shudders/Slips/DTC's Set File In Section: 07 - Transmission/Transaxle Bulletin No.: 0O-07-30-002B Date: July, 2002 TECHNICAL Subject: Slips, Harsh Upshift or Garage Shifts, Launch Shudders, Flares, Erratic Shifts and Intermittent Concerns, DTC P1811 or P0748 Set (Replace Pressure Control Solenoid Valve Assembly) Models: 1997-1999 Buick Riviera 1997-2002 Buick Park Avenue 1998-2002 Buick LeSabre 1999-2002 Buick Regal 2000-2002 Buick Century 2002 Buick Rendezvous 1997-2001 Chevrolet Lumina 1997-2002 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 1999-2002 Chevrolet Venture 2000-2002 Chevrolet Impala 1997-1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight 1997-2002 Oldsmobile Silhouette 1998-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue 2001-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora (3.5L) 1997-2002 Pontiac Bonneville, Grand Prix 1999-2002 Pontiac Transport/Montana 2001-2002 Pontiac Aztek with Hydra-Matic 4T65-E (RPOs MN3, MN7, M15, M76) This bulletin is being revised to add additional models and model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 00-07-30-002A (Section 07 - Transmission/Transaxle). Condition Some owners of the above vehicles with a HydraMatic 4T65-E transaxle may comment on harsh upshifts or harsh garage shifts, soft shifts, shudders on hard acceleration, or shifts erratic. These conditions may appear intermittently or set a DTC P1811 or P0748. During diagnosis, a low or high line pressure (actual versus desired) may be observed. Cause The above condition may be due to any one of the following which may affect line pressure output: ^ Sediment inside the pressure control (PC) solenoid valve, causing the PC solenoid valve to mechanically bind. ^ Sediment in the valve body, causing the torque signal regulator valve to stick. ^ Incorrect transaxle oil level.
for an exhaust repair/replacement - you didn't specify whether that's a head pipe, or a tailpipe/muffler assembly.
The only suggestion I could make as an alternative is to take it to a good, local (no chain stores) muffler shop and see if it could be fabricated instead - that's usually cheaper, and better workmanship.
It says "gasket" so I'm thinking he meant head pipe. That would be a fair price in that case. But for a measly tail pipe from the muffler on back, sounds like a lot.
Looking to keep it another year...hoping it will last.
It seems that the vehicle may need struts b/c the upper bearings squeek when making turns. The miles are around 105k and the struts have never been replaced. I do not see any leaks around the boots but everything has a shelf life. Can I replace the bearings without the struts or is it recommended to have a shop replace the struts and bearings in one shot, if so, how much am I looking to fork out for this?
I'm not sure what bearings you mean. Are you referring to the upper strut spring seats (mounts)?
I see on Napa's website that you can buy just the upper seats for about $16.50 each. With a floorjack and good set of sockets, you could do it yourself if you wanted. Regardless, even if you had a shop do it, I'd probably opt just to do the seats by themselves IF the suspension still feels firm and doesn't float over bumps or feel like you are riding on rocks and IF all you feel is wrong with the car is the noise.
Put it this way, you are probably looking at $35 for parts and 1 hour of labor to do the seats (about $120 total). If you want to do the struts, too, you'd be looking at more like $150-$175 for parts and 2-2.5 hours labor (maybe $375 total). These are total guesses on my part, by the way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
qbrozen...Thank you for the advice. Based on what I am reading, I do not need to compress the struts to get to the Upper Seats, or do I? I was under the impression that there were bearings on top of strut where it connects to the body. But if it is only a floor jack and a good set of sockets, I'll try the $35 dollar investment, worse case, I need struts and they will reuse the seats. Thanks again.
Replacing front upper spring seats/bearings requires disassembly of the strut using a proper spring compressor. Here's the time from the current Mitchell Labor Estimating Guide:
STRUT ASSEMBLY, R&I
DOES NOT include disassemble or alignment
Escort
1981-97
One Side..... 1.1
Both Sides... 1.8
COMBINATIONS
Spring and/or Top Mount
All applicable models 1978-02... 0.3
Strut, replace
All applicable models 1978-02... 0.3
Here's the replacement procedure:
MacPherson Struts
Ford Escort/Tracer 1991-1999 Repair Guide
REMOVAL & INSTALLATION
Disconnect the negative battery cable.
Raise and safely support the vehicle.
Remove the front wheel and tire assembly.
Remove the clip securing the brake hose to the strut (spring and shock) assembly. If equipped with anti-lock brakes, remove the anti-lock brake harness cable and clip.
Unfasten the two nuts and two bolts securing the strut assembly to the steering knuckle.
If equipped, unfasten the A/C line-to-strut stud retaining nut and set the hose and bracket aside.
Unfasten the four upper strut retaining nuts and remove the strut assembly from the vehicle.
CAUTION
Never remove the strut piston rod nut unless the coil spring is compressed. Always wear safety glasses when using a spring compressor.
OVERHAUL
1997-99 Models
Place the strut assembly in a vise.
Install a suitable spring compressor tool onto the coil spring and compress the spring.
Unfasten the piston rod nut and remove the upper mounting bracket.
Remove the bound stopper, dust boot, rubber spring seat, spring, upper spring seat and thrust bearing.
To assemble:
Install the thrust bearing, upper spring seat, spring, rubber spring seat, dust boot and the bound stopper.
Install the piston rod nut and tighten it to 58-81 ft. lbs. (79-110 Nm).
After the piston rod nut has been tightened to specification, carefully remove the compressor tool from the spring while making sure the spring is properly seated in the upper and lower spring seats.
To install:
Position the strut assembly into the wheel housing. Make sure the direction indicator on the upper mounting bracket faces inboard.
Secure the upper mounting bracket to the strut tower with the retaining nuts. Tighten the nuts to 22-30 ft. lbs. (29-40 Nm).
Attach the strut assembly to the steering knuckle and install the retaining bolts and nuts. Tighten to 69-93 ft. lbs. (93-127 Nm).
Position the brake hose on the strut assembly and secure it with the brake hose clip. If equipped with anti-lock brakes, install the anti-lock harness cable and clip.
Install the front wheel and tire assembly.
Lower the vehicle.
Connect the negative battery cable.
Check the front wheel alignment.
Road test the vehicle and check for proper operation.
well, you certainly can't beat the good info above.
Looks like my 2.5 hour estimate was pretty good. Unfortunately, the seats do involve disassembling the whole thing, so that 2.5 hours is going to be necessary whether or not you replace the struts at the same time.
If you are indeed mechanically inclined, however, you can get a spring compression tool from your local Car-part-mart type place (I got one from Pep Boys last summer for $50). Its just a couple of hooks, bolts, and nuts. Really nothing elaborate or difficult to use. So you still could get away with an $85 investment (tool and mounts) and use that great info posted above. But only if you are comfortable doing so. Personally, I probably wouldn't do it if it weren't for my air compressor and impact wrench, but I guess I'm spoiled that way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
With shop labor rates pushing and sometimes exceeding the 100.00 per hour rate, it can get into the big bucks in a hurry.
Those V-6 Eclipse's are NASTY to work on. The plugs, if I remember correctly are a miserable job to replace. The platinum plugs aren't cheap either. Add an air filter and a few adjustments and the 200.00 number can be reached in a hurry.
I can't imagine what a head gasket job would be on one of those!
if you want the OEM, you pay through the nose. used to be sold in other parts stores until something like 10 years ago, when they decided to circle the wagons and protect their margin on lower sales.
you can spend about as much as you want on first-line aftermarket parts like bosch as well, but if you or your mechanic look around, there are better deals. when your mechanic does so, and sticks with a quality parts line, he can win twice... be your friend with an acceptable price, and also keep HIS margin. at the bottom of it all, ain't no business if the guy can't make his profit margin.
Envoy 30,000 mile service
Inspect
Brakes and Traction Control
Fluid - Differential
Inspect front/rear axle fluid level and add fluid as needed. Inspect constant velocity joints and axle seals for leaking.
Replace
Fuel Filter (E)
Oil
Change engine oil and filter as indicated by the GM Oil Life System (or every 12 months, whichever occurs first). Reset the indicator. Never drive the vehicle more than 16 000 km (10,000 miles) without and oil and filter change. The system will not detect dust in the oil. If the vehicle is driven in a dusty area, be sure to change the oil every 5 000 km (3,000 miles) or sooner.
Oil Filter, Engine (E)
Rotate
Tires
(S) = Service Warranty Requirement
(E) = Emission Warranty Requirement
(B) = Both Service and Emission Warranty Requirement
The Serv Tech related that they were going to do more than just what you described above. I wish I wrote it all down (induction something??). I need to call him back to get a more detailed list for the purposes of this discussion. When I do, I'll pass it along, but my recollection was that they were doing far more than just the 'oil change'.
Thanks for replying.
Love that moniker by the way.
Many dealerships are trying to add engine flushes and transmission flushes to their 30, 45 and 60k services - great profit generators, but I think they do much more harm than good. In addition to not being recommended or mandated by the manufacturer, they usually aren't endorsed by the manufacturer in any way.
These flushes have been debated here several times and the consensus seems to be that if particles are "flushed" from your cylinder heads and other areas, and the oil pan isn't removed and the oil pump screen cleaned (guarantee that's not happening for $79.95), you end up with particles and gunk blocking the oil pump screen and oil flow to the pump and through the engine, effectively killing the engine, or at best, shortening its life significantly.
The best thing to do is go by the warranty/maintenance guide...if it's listed, have them do it, if not, have them forget it, because it's not truly necessary.
Also, if there's something like "inspect drive belts and coolant hoses" as an additional charge, pay close attention to a standard oil change - those things are usually included and shouldn't be dropped into a 30k with an added charge just to pad the bill...
Thanks for the info. I talked to the Serv Adv.
Here is what's in the $550:
* change oil/oil filter
* rotate tires
* change air/fuel filter
* inspect front/rear brakes (can only imagine what kind of "inspection" that is!)
* flush/replace brake fluid
* power flush something else ... can't remember
* full induction
I think that's it. There may be more but he didn't say. I think I'll go into the owner's manual and see what all else might be in there.
Thanks for your collective inputs.
-dave.
Same with the "power flush" (no matter what they're flushing)...
As for the brake fluid, I find it hard to believe that brake fluid would need a flush and replacement at only 30k miles...I doubt it's recommended - perhaps "checking" the brake fluid, which requires 1.5 seconds to look at the see-through master cylinder reservior...
Other than the fuel filter (I recommend at 15k intervals, unless it's the sock type where you drop the tank), you're looking at an oil change and tire rotation - $50?
$100 with the fuel filter, if it's a canister-type filter?
In other words, $450 of the $550 is profit for the dealer and hours for the tech - while I'm not opposed to legitimate hours for a tech, by any means, doing unnecessary and non-recommended services for the sake of profit isn't legitimate hours...
* change oil/oil filter
Yes, good idea. Let's say .5 hour shop time + $15 oil + $15 filter....so maybe....what.....$80?
* rotate tires
Okay, good idea. This can't be more than .25 shop time, so let's say $20.
* change air/fuel filter
Yep, good idea. Let's say $25 filter & change, and $15 fuel filter + .25 hour = $60 total
* inspect front/rear brakes (can only imagine what kind of "inspection" that is!)
so you shine a flashlight and report. Should be no charge.
* flush/replace brake fluid
this depends not only on miles but on time. I'd say every two years is a good idea, let's say $65 and be generous.
* power flush something else ... can't remember
* full induction
I agree---this is not something to be done unless you are having a problem. Scratch this one.
So I come up with $225...let's be even more generous and allow for problems, etc. and say $300.
I don't see $550 dollars here, at least not from the list you posted.
I'd be interested to see how the service writer would "break this down" into an itemized list.
Thanks for the info. I talked to the Serv Adv.
Here is what's in the $550:
* change oil/oil filter
* rotate tires
* change air/fuel filter
* inspect front/rear brakes (can only imagine what kind of "inspection" that is!)
* flush/replace brake fluid
* power flush something else ... can't remember
* full induction
I think that's it. There may be more but he didn't say. I think I'll go into the owner's manual and see what all else might be in there.
Thanks for your collective inputs.
-dave.
I must disagree there. Brake hydraulic system flushing is a legitimate maintenance service. Read this:
http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/brkfld.shtml
"Systems should be flushed every 2-3 years"
3 years is 45k miles, on average - I question the validity of this service in a 30k plan.
You'll see this service offered in every 7500, 15k and other service in many dealerships.
I think, based on my experience, that the brake fluid change should be a 45 or 60k service item, with a normal use vehicle, in normal climates - high humidity, high altitude, and nasty, dirty conditions are the exception.
I'm amazed at how many people are presented with horror stories about how their brakes will fail immediately if that bad fluid isn't evacuated this very minute...while the service advisor asks for an extra $100 on a service at 15K!
I change nearly all my vehicle's fluid annually, save for differential transfer case stuff, which is synthetic (installed shortly after break-in) and goes two years.
Why they want to do more than the OEM recommendation is beyond me.
I will agree with Alcan though, if you are in a humid area, the brake fluid wouldn't be a bad idea.
Also, there aren't any manufacturers that recommend any "power" flushing of trans or engine.
Somewhere here at Town Hall, I posted a TSB from GM on flushing and GM's stance on flushing.
Front/Rear brake inspection is pulling the rear tires and if drum brakes, pulling the drum and inspecting the brake shoes. If disk, then all they do is look at the calipers, and pads.
I totally agree with driftracer on the induction cleaning. Unless you are in California and running flex fuel or oxygenated fuel, then at 30k, is a total waste of money.
I am surprised they aren't doing a wallet flush, rotating the turn signal bulbs, and topping off the blinker fluid as well. these are essential cash recycling tasks
Of course, you could just do a tire to tire air rotation for a little less money. Don't forget to have them check your muffler bearings.
my owner's manual has the same claim: change oil ever 5k. When I use conventional oil, I use a 3,500 mile interval. Sometimes I've let it go to 4k; no big deal. 3k is really the minimum amount of time you need to change your oil out. After owning my cars a short while, I always switch to Synthetic. I use a 6k interval for my changes with synthetic. Bottom line from me: at 5k under heavy driving conditions in a dirty enviornment, your dipstick will be pretty dark, and you better have a better than average oil filter trapping particulates if you go that long. Nonetheless, I change my own oil; if I didn't, and went to one of the overpriced grease pits, I might consider stetching the interval a bit too. But I'm sure I'd be sorry, since the filters they use probably give out after 3k, which is why they tell you to come in every 3k. Go read some other posts here in Edmunds. No one person's answer is ever the same. That's because if you don't have the ability to do a moisture-viscocity-dirt analysis of your oil, it becomes a guessing game.
If OEM says 5,000 miles, then 5k it is.
If OEM says 3,000 miles, then 3k it is.
Some folks are making way too much of this.
The manufacturer creates these interval tables for a reason.
On my 70 chevy 4x4, I change the oil at 3-4k. Mainly because I know that the older v-8s tend to create a little more soot in the oil.
My wife's Impala, gets changed when the light comes on saying to change it.
I'm lazy, what can I say. Does it make any difference whether I change at the light or mileage? Not that I have found.
I have an '01 Honda Accord V6-EX which I need to take in for it's 30K scheduled maintenance. The dealter quoted me a total of $415 for this service. According to Edmunds, this same service should cost me around $186.
Edmunds itemizes the costs for parts and labor for each item which is very very helpful. However, they only provide dollar figures for labor without providing any info about the hourly rate which they are basing those figures on.
I need to know what average hourly rate they are using to compute their labor costs for my zip code 52246. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Host
One of the car mags recently did its one-year round-up on its Mini Cooper, and they were waiting for the light to come on to do oil changes. In more than 30K miles they only did two oil changes: the light came on at 12,xxx and just over 30K (18,000 miles later!!!!) and that was it. Possibly oil change intervals can be extended more than some think...I read that oil change places "are finally abandoning their 3K interval recommendations in recognition that most cars can go at least 5K between changes now", but I see no evidence of that out in the world. I go 5K myself (the manufacturer's "severe use" interval, and oil is the only item where I follow this schedule because oil is so cheap to change).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
On my dealer's recommended service schedule, they want $400 for a 30k service and $600 for a 60k service. The 30k includes a coolant flush (Nissan specifies the first drain and fill, not flush, at 60k), and the 60k includes a spark plug replacement (which isn't due until 105,000 miles). I avoid going there whenever possible, and do most of the maintenance work myself.
They also have an "intermediate" and a "major" service. The way I see it, they do so much extra stuff that it will probably never require a "major" service. It might get an "intermediate" one at 110K when everything goes (plugs, long-life coolant, etc).
Their defense? "Our service recommendations meet or exceed the manufacturer's requirements". I think the operative word here is "exceed".
In my car, lots of stuff gets changed twice as frequently (filters, fluids) under the severe schedule, not just the engine oil. But the manual goes on for like a page, with BOLD LETTERS and everything, about how unless your driving is MAINLY in the severe category, to use the normal maintenance schedule. I don't tow, all the roads I drive are paved, and my commute involves no stop and go (and is more than 5 miles each way), so I go with the normal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Look for an aftermarket unit instead of a Honda unit, and shop around, not even thinking about paying the $300-400 that Midas or Meineke are quoting...
91,000 miles is a lot of miles. I think, sometimes that people expect every part on a car to last forever.
Both boy's cars have universal cats, legal in 50 states, and paid $55.00 each for them - they're made by Dynomax, are 2.5" diameter to match their custom fabbed exhaust systems, and I got them from Jeg's Racing.
JC Whitney has non-high performance cats from around $90.00.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I have a guy who owns a tuning shop who goes to Meineke and bends it himself. Both my boys' cars run custom 2.5 inch full systems with high flow cats.
My new truck will have a 4" system, and the EVO or STi (next spring) will run 3" (all custom).
I miss being back home in Texas where EVERY shop does custom exhaust, and it's cheap!
With the chain shops that shy away from custom work, it's about them not being able to bend properly - it's easier for them to charge you astronomically for a prefab exhaust section specifically for your vehicle that goes on with nuts and bolts...
But before you go through with the repair, I would suggest changing the trans fluid and filter.
Get a bottle of TransX and add it (read directions), then run it for about 3 or 4 days, then change the fluid. If it is sediment build up, it may clean it out. If not, then it was worth a try.
A/T - 4T65E Harsh Shifts/Shudders/Slips/DTC's Set
File In Section: 07 - Transmission/Transaxle
Bulletin No.: 0O-07-30-002B
Date: July, 2002
TECHNICAL
Subject:
Slips, Harsh Upshift or Garage Shifts, Launch Shudders, Flares, Erratic Shifts and Intermittent Concerns, DTC P1811 or P0748 Set (Replace Pressure Control Solenoid Valve Assembly)
Models:
1997-1999 Buick Riviera
1997-2002 Buick Park Avenue
1998-2002 Buick LeSabre
1999-2002 Buick Regal
2000-2002 Buick Century
2002 Buick Rendezvous
1997-2001 Chevrolet Lumina
1997-2002 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1999-2002 Chevrolet Venture
2000-2002 Chevrolet Impala
1997-1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
1997-2002 Oldsmobile Silhouette
1998-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora (3.5L)
1997-2002 Pontiac Bonneville, Grand Prix
1999-2002 Pontiac Transport/Montana
2001-2002 Pontiac Aztek
with Hydra-Matic 4T65-E (RPOs MN3, MN7, M15, M76)
This bulletin is being revised to add additional models and model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 00-07-30-002A (Section 07 - Transmission/Transaxle).
Condition
Some owners of the above vehicles with a HydraMatic 4T65-E transaxle may comment on harsh upshifts or harsh garage shifts, soft shifts, shudders on hard acceleration, or shifts erratic. These conditions may appear intermittently or set a DTC P1811 or P0748. During diagnosis, a low or high line pressure (actual versus desired) may be observed.
Cause
The above condition may be due to any one of the following which may affect line pressure output:
^ Sediment inside the pressure control (PC) solenoid valve, causing the PC solenoid valve to mechanically bind.
^ Sediment in the valve body, causing the torque signal regulator valve to stick.
^ Incorrect transaxle oil level.
gasket 2@$5--10
bolt kit 1@24--24
exhaust pipe 1@164--164
labor -- 85
supplies -- 9
total -- $300 (w/ tax)
Seems like alot for the pipe. What do you think?
Thanks.
The only suggestion I could make as an alternative is to take it to a good, local (no chain stores) muffler shop and see if it could be fabricated instead - that's usually cheaper, and better workmanship.
It seems that the vehicle may need struts b/c the upper bearings squeek when making turns. The miles are around 105k and the struts have never been replaced. I do not see any leaks around the boots but everything has a shelf life. Can I replace the bearings without the struts or is it recommended to have a shop replace the struts and bearings in one shot, if so, how much am I looking to fork out for this?
Thank you for your time.
Alwayslearning
I see on Napa's website that you can buy just the upper seats for about $16.50 each. With a floorjack and good set of sockets, you could do it yourself if you wanted. Regardless, even if you had a shop do it, I'd probably opt just to do the seats by themselves IF the suspension still feels firm and doesn't float over bumps or feel like you are riding on rocks and IF all you feel is wrong with the car is the noise.
Put it this way, you are probably looking at $35 for parts and 1 hour of labor to do the seats (about $120 total). If you want to do the struts, too, you'd be looking at more like $150-$175 for parts and 2-2.5 hours labor (maybe $375 total). These are total guesses on my part, by the way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
STRUT ASSEMBLY, R&I
DOES NOT include disassemble or alignment
Escort
1981-97
One Side..... 1.1
Both Sides... 1.8
COMBINATIONS
Spring and/or Top Mount
All applicable models 1978-02... 0.3
Strut, replace
All applicable models 1978-02... 0.3
Here's the replacement procedure:
MacPherson Struts
Ford Escort/Tracer 1991-1999 Repair Guide
REMOVAL & INSTALLATION
Disconnect the negative battery cable.
Raise and safely support the vehicle.
Remove the front wheel and tire assembly.
Remove the clip securing the brake hose to the strut (spring and shock) assembly. If equipped with anti-lock brakes, remove the anti-lock brake harness cable and clip.
Unfasten the two nuts and two bolts securing the strut assembly to the steering knuckle.
If equipped, unfasten the A/C line-to-strut stud retaining nut and set the hose and bracket aside.
Unfasten the four upper strut retaining nuts and remove the strut assembly from the vehicle.
CAUTION
Never remove the strut piston rod nut unless the coil spring is compressed. Always wear safety glasses when using a spring compressor.
OVERHAUL
1997-99 Models
Place the strut assembly in a vise.
Install a suitable spring compressor tool onto the coil spring and compress the spring.
Unfasten the piston rod nut and remove the upper mounting bracket.
Remove the bound stopper, dust boot, rubber spring seat, spring, upper spring seat and thrust bearing.
To assemble:
Install the thrust bearing, upper spring seat, spring, rubber spring seat, dust boot and the bound stopper.
Install the piston rod nut and tighten it to 58-81 ft. lbs. (79-110 Nm).
After the piston rod nut has been tightened to specification, carefully remove the compressor tool from the spring while making sure the spring is properly seated in the upper and lower spring seats.
To install:
Position the strut assembly into the wheel housing. Make sure the direction indicator on the upper mounting bracket faces inboard.
Secure the upper mounting bracket to the strut tower with the retaining nuts. Tighten the nuts to 22-30 ft. lbs. (29-40 Nm).
Attach the strut assembly to the steering knuckle and install the retaining bolts and nuts. Tighten to 69-93 ft. lbs. (93-127 Nm).
Position the brake hose on the strut assembly and secure it with the brake hose clip. If equipped with anti-lock brakes, install the anti-lock harness cable and clip.
Install the front wheel and tire assembly.
Lower the vehicle.
Connect the negative battery cable.
Check the front wheel alignment.
Road test the vehicle and check for proper operation.
Looks like my 2.5 hour estimate was pretty good. Unfortunately, the seats do involve disassembling the whole thing, so that 2.5 hours is going to be necessary whether or not you replace the struts at the same time.
If you are indeed mechanically inclined, however, you can get a spring compression tool from your local Car-part-mart type place (I got one from Pep Boys last summer for $50). Its just a couple of hooks, bolts, and nuts. Really nothing elaborate or difficult to use. So you still could get away with an $85 investment (tool and mounts) and use that great info posted above. But only if you are comfortable doing so. Personally, I probably wouldn't do it if it weren't for my air compressor and impact wrench, but I guess I'm spoiled that way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S