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Comments
Larry
So I say let the dealer handle it, since it is clearly a vehicle flaw.
Craig
Craig
Anyway, just wanted to clarify that the Subie definitely did not cost me thousands in repairs. What I stated was that the one repair I had to make was "tougher" than all the repairs I've done on my volvo put together. So, from my perspective (someone who works on his own cars), I've had a much more pleasant ownership experience with my Volvo than I had with my subie. Its not to say I wouldn't buy another one, though, don't get me wrong. I still think they are good vehicles. I wasn't necessarily bashing the Subie as much as I was coming to the defense of Volvo.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I realize there are many factors that could have led to the this stone causing a crack where others did not, and perhaps it was just bad luck that mine cracked this time. But with these posts, and others where people talk of their Subaru OB windshields cracking or where their sunroof glass shattered suddendly with no explanation, makes me wonder whether the quality of the glass being used by Subaru is not quite up to snuff.
Cheers,
Jay.
In MD insurance covers windshields, but I'd check with your dealer and call 800-SUBARU3 to open up a case. Odds are they take care of it.
I firmly believe that no car is perfect. The important thing is how they respond to an issue that you might have.
People tend to put Toyota on a pedestal but remember the Sludge Debacle. Noone is perfect. I don't think a couple of cracked windshield has a whole lot of significance, that's all.
-juice
I can not test drive a car with the Short Throw Shifter and would like to get a general impression from someone who has bought one with the short throw shifter. I did play with the STI just to get a feel for the shifter but that is a very different car.
I used to own a manual shift Civic a while ago and it had a very tight precise shifter, 2.5i shifter is good but it is not as tight, the STI ofcourse was very "crisp".
Thanks
I would say the shifts aren't quite as crisp as the STi, but closer. Think of it more as a touring sedan rather than a race car and you'd get the idea.
I haven't driven the 2.5i so I can't really compare for you- I can't remember if the 2.5i has the dual cone synchronizers like the GT. My guess is that if you have a 2.5i OB you're not going to be racing a lot of people though, so I'm not sure it's worth the $400. ;-)
It's not going to shift like your little 1.6L Civic- it's a much bigger engine. Also, Honda makes some great MTs, and Subaru isn't at that level. But it's not too far off either. Think Mazda and you're not far off. ;-)
Hope this helps
tom
So I was in the local Sub dealer over the weekend. Was looking for a used one for my daughter. They had squat. But while there I was attracted to a beautiful red (garnet red pearl I think it's called) wagon with a sharp looking beige (taupe) interior. It's a Legacy GT Limited wagon. So I read up a bit here and other places. Sounds like with the auto tranny there's some turbo lag but with the MTX, everyone seems to agree it's quite a performer. 0-60 around 6 secs they say, with great handling in the twisties.
Anyone confirm these statements?
So, I've been thinking for awhile that I'd like to get a different car for my daily driver and weekend getaway car. Right now I have an '01 Lincoln LS, one of the few with a manual tranny. The handling is BMW-like and the zip is pretty good to with 0-60 of just a bit over 7 sec. It's a fun car to drive. But it's not so good for the weekends cause I do a lot of photography and need to carry a bunch of gear and sometimes want to get into places that the Lincoln can not go.
And then I see this Legacy - the pros are:
- sharp looking (in red) and interior is pretty nice too. I think I could live with it coming out of the LS.
- QUICKer than the LS and handling in the smae ballpark it seems?
- much more practical in terms of gear.
- gas mileage - I dunno. I get 22 in the Lincoln on my commute which is a 35 mile almost all freeway but with a 1800 foot climb and drop with lots of twisties. Can anyone give me an idea of mpg with the GT turbo w/MTX?
- AWD will be nice in the rainy season (California Bay area so no snow.)
- Seems like safety is a wash as the LS is all 5-stars and looks like the Legacy is too?
Perceived downsides:
- I've heard the stereo offerings are pretty sorry. Comments?
- Even though it has AWD, the Subaru lacks the possible butt-saving 'Advancetrak' stability control that my Lincoln has.
Now, here's the killer: Will the Legacy be able to go places the LS couldn't. B4 you say 'of course', and that is the answer for say sand or snow, but what I'm after is fire roads and some nasty dirt roads etc. In the past I've used a Tahoe and a Jeep Cherokee on these types of roads. I doubt the Legacy would do what they did, but am I likely to get in trouble with it? I know the ground clearance is only about 6 inches.
Lastly, if the answer is the Outback would be better (mainly because of 8.7 inch GC) is it THAT much better? Would I give up a lot in handling and quickness? Is the Outback interior same as or different from the Legacy.
Thanks much for any advice.
As it turns out, the October 2004 issue of Road and Track provides that comparison: between a Legacy GT on Bridgestone 92A tires, and an Acura TSX, on Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 tires. Now the MXM's may not be the stickiest gumballs on the road, but they are generally condidered a better-than-average tire, and I don't hear any hysteria about them.
So here are the stopping distances from 60 mph: Acura 133 ft; LGT 135 ft. From 80 mph the difference is even less: Acura 237 ft, LGT 238 ft. Given that, do you really want to rush out and spend $600 on new tires to save one foot in stopping distance? Why not just drive two feet farther back from the car ahead of you?
As far as cornering is concerned, the LGT on 92A's posted higher cornering g's and faster speed through a slalom course than the TSX on Michelins.
I'm planning to get an LGT this spring; I guess I might change my mind, but I don't have any plans to negotiate for a tire swap, or to take off brand new Bridgestones to buy new tires. Everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion, but a bit of real data makes the opinion better-informed.
I wouldn't take the legacy on fire roads or rough dirt roads. If that is what you are looking for, I would definitely consider the OB. I haven't driven the new legacy but I think the OB handles great given its ground clearance, etc. I have taken my OB off road and the AWD performed great. I never bottomed out although I would think it could be easier to do so given the length of the wagon. I don't think you will be giving up much quickness with the OB. The interiors are the same although I am not sure about the seats. Looks as if you need to test drive both and see if the OB still fits your handling/performance needs after the Lincoln.
- The GT with manual tranny for 0-60 was clocked somewhere around 5.6 seconds.
- There is very little turbo lag with the manual. The engine pulls very strongly from a start.
- The GT wagon handles very nicely for a vehicle of it's size. Check out Edmund's own review on the GT Ltd wagon. They mention that it's slalom performance is "near sports car territory". Some lucky folks that were able to test both the sedan and wagon on a track reported that the wagon handled just as well as the sedan.
- On my commute with my 5EAT GT wagon, 30 miles one way on highway 280 averaging 75-80mph I get 23mpg. My best tank so far was on a roadtrip to Yosemite where I averaged 26mpg. That's with three passengers, luggage and highway speeds of 80mph. The 5MT should return very similar milage.
- The Legacy posted very good crash test results except in the new IIHS side impact test where it received marginal ratings. It scored 5-starts on the NHSTA tests.
- The stock headunit is very good to these non-audiophile ears. The major complaint is that the stock unit does not have an AUX-input to allow for MP3 players and iPod direct connections.
As for your last question, the Legacy GT rides at about 6.5 inches. While that is fine for most fire roads, the problem would be more in the tires and suspension. The GT uses 45-series tires and a slightly stiffer suspension than the Outback. I would be concerned about passenger comfort as well as bent rims.
If you do plan on driving through deep rutted roads or snow, then the Outback might be a better choice. But the ground clearance and suspension travel, as you guessed, comes at a price of handling.
When I test drove a GT wagon and Outback back-to-back, I could definetly notice more mody roll, braking dive/squat with the Outback. While you will clearly be better off than a typical SUV in an Outback, you do give up the on-road performance of the GT. Only a test drive will confirm what is good for you. If you can live with the Outback's performance on-road, then it will offer you more versatility for your weekend hobbies.
My previous car was a Forester with 7.5 inches of clearance. That was more than enough for occasional light off-roading and driving through heavy snow. In my case, I realized that 99% of the time I was on-road (or something close to it) and I constantly wished for better roadhandling, hence my decision to go with the GT this time instead of the OB.
Both the Legacy and Outback have the same interior space. The GT and Outback XT have identical interior trim.
One other model you may want to look into, if electronic stability is a top priority, is Subaru's Outback VDC wagon. It comes only as a six-cylinder mated to an automatic tranny, but it has a very solid stability control system. It won't offer the same power delivery as the turbo, but it's a smooth and steady powerplant.
BTW, I saw that you're in the Bay Area too. Which dealers did you visit? The two I recommend are Carlsen (Redwood City) and Santa Cruz Subaru. Both are top notch and offer great service.
Ken
I wouldn't take the legacy on fire roads or rough dirt roads. If that is what you are looking for, I would definitely consider the OB. I haven't driven the new legacy but I think the OB handles great given its ground clearance, etc. I have taken my OB off road and the AWD performed great. I never bottomed out although I would think it could be easier to do so given the length of the wagon. I don't think you will be giving up much quickness with the OB. The interiors are the same although I am not sure about the seats. Looks as if you need to test drive both and see if the OB still fits your handling/performance needs after the Lincoln.
Thanks for your helpful data. I am not that much "spooked" anymore. I will wait "at least" another year and see. BTW, it happened to snow quite a bit today and the tires seemed to work fine. Jason
kens: WHat year is your GT (and what's EAT stand for:>) I presume E.. Automatic Tranny)
The marginal side impact scores - were those for 2005 Leg or previous? I see the 2005 has front side and rear curtain airbags. Would think those would help a lot.
I did go to Snata Cruz Sub - cause I live over there. The commute I described is over Hiway 17 to Sunnyvale. It can be a royal PIA, but with reasonable traffic, it's a blast in the Lincoln. That's why I'm favoring the GT. Most of my driving is that type. But I really do want the fire road capability. Arrgghh. No one perfect solution. Say, what if I go to East San Jose and get some hydraulics put on? Then, I can raise her up 3 inches or so when I need it?:>) BTW, Edmunds shows the GC as 5.9 inches. But experince tells me that may not be correct. Subaru.com does not give ground clearance # for Legacy GT.
You and jmtreetop I guess agree that the OB is much better suited for 'off-road' and the Legacy a bit better for 'on-road'?
I know the Legacy was redesigned this year. Was the OB as well?
The VDC looks pretty interesting, altho it's Auto only and getting pretty pricy, n'est pas? Nice that it gets same mpg as the turbo 4 and same HP w/o turbo.
If you regularly drive fire roads, I'd highly suggest the OB. It has more suspension travel, higher profile tires, and significantly more ground clearance. It's still comfortable and handles ok, although I don't think it will handle the twisties around Santa Cruz as well as the GT. :-(
The OB was also redesigned along with the legacy.
Having driven my GT down some winding mountain roads, I will tell you it is definitely a blast! Once you get the turbo spooled up it'd probably leave your lincoln in the dust (although the LS is a decent handler)
The perfect solution? Buy one of each! ;-)
Good luck.
tom
Do people use the same brush for the window and the hood? Do brushes vary in softness? Which one do you suggest?
As always, many thanks for your help and it is really appreciated.
Also do any of you use Engine Block heater? Do you think it is good for the engine. Supposing my car would start perfectly even without it, can I do some good to my engine by getting that installed?
Thanks.
I agree with the others about the fire roads requirement. The GT suspension and tires are just not made for that. The OB or Forester are more in step with that type of driving. Plus the speeds on 17 are fairly restricted with HEAVY policing, and most any vehicle can handle the typical traffic speeds along there. If anything, you need a strong 2nd and 3rd gear to SLOW you down so as not to run over the guy in front of you. Unless you're planning some late-night high-speed, less-than-above-the-law, runs through 17, the OB or Forester will do more than fine with everyday driving. Sure, there will be more body roll and brake-induced nose diving, but not anything close to what you'll get in a tradional SUV. If you were happy with the Tahoe, you'll be thrilled with ANY Subaru.
To answer some of the other questions:
1. The "Marginal" side-impact rating was for the current 2005 year Legacy. The OB received excellent side and front impact scores. Weird that the OB and Legacy scored differently since they are so similar, but the extra OB height could have made a difference.
2. 5EAT is the auto tranny.
3. Both the Legacy and OB are new designs for 2005. The biggest differences between the two are the suspension and the tires.
Good luck with your decision, and thanks for brining up pleasant Highway 17 memories!
-Ty
Yes, bristle strength does vary from one manufacturer to the next, but they all tend to be pretty stiff. I use the same brush for the entire car.
I try to avoid scratching the paint by applying enough pressure to move the snow, but not enough to actually touch the surface of the paint with the bristles. It's a learned skill. Basically, try to keep a buffer of snow between the bristles and the paint.
Even that may cause scratches, though. Inevitably there's going to be dirt on the paint, and as soon as anything moves across the surface, whether it's your hand, the brush, or even wet snow, that dirt is going to put micro scratches in the clearcoat. Most will be so small that you won't notice them...unless the vehicle is covered in road sand, which can cause major scatches.
There's not much you can do to avoid it, though. The best you can do is park in a covered area as often as possible, avoid rubbing the bristles against the paint, keep your car clean, and buff out any minor scratches or swirls every so often. If you do that, your paint will look better than 99% of the cars out there.
-Ty
The Outback XT offers the same interior and seats as the GT, and trades some "track" capability for "offroad" capability. Both the XT and GT are wicked fast. Compared to previous Outbacks and most SUVs, the new Outback handles very well. I am constantly reminded of that as I take highway exit ramps at much higher speeds than in my previous Outback. The GT definitely has better on-road handling, but the Outback XT is no slouch either.
After owning two previous Outbacks and a WRX, I went shopping for an 05 Legacy GT wagon as the perfect compromise car. Then I test drove an Outback XT. I felt that it handled so much better than my 02 Outback that the line between Outback and Legacy was kind of blurred in my case. Since I value ground clearance and the offroad prowess that a long-travel suspension offers, the Outback XT suddenly became the obvious choice.
I have not regretted the decision yet -- the Outback XT is loads of fun to drive on my commute (the acceleration is outstanding) and it is very capable offroad, even more so than my 02 Outback (more power, more gears, more ground clearance). Important point -- for serious offroading (as serious as you can reasonably expect from an Outback) an auto transmission is the best choice. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with either tranmission on the road -- the 5MT is quick, and the 5EAT is very advanced and makes for a near no-penalty experience with auto trans.
Honestly, you need to drive both cars, and be sure to try both manual and automatic. In the auto, slide the lever to the left to engage sport mode but do not use the +/- lever or steering wheel buttons. This will put you in the auto's sport mode, where shifts are super responsive and most closely resemble a manual transmission. The manumatic +/- mode is OK, but nothing like the real thing, hence I do not mention it as a selling point.
By the way, also check out the black interior, it's really sharp looking!
Craig
A good heavy coat of Klasse will protect the paint and keep grime from sticking, so you have that going for you!
If you are really nuts, a leaf blower would work for dry snow -- just blow it onto someone else's car!!
Engine block heater is good if you routinely experience sub-zero temps. I bet our Canadian crew members can comment better on that...
Craig
The leaf blower joke was a good one. That would attract lot of attention. So it seems there are no brushes for the body. Today, I did what both of you suggested; brushed off the snow without touching the surface. But that leaves some snow on. It, of course, did not hinder my visibility. But I had read on 'Car Talk' that you should clean your car well, otherwise the snow from your car can fly and land on the windshield of cars coming behind you. When I saw a little of it flying today, I felt a little guilty (I did not see where it landed) and thought maybe something softer is available. I think I will stick to your advice. I do not want to scratch my car for sure.
Thanks once again for your replies.
Craig
But if they make all these great products for the body why can they not make a nice brush too??
If I need to scrape the windows, I have a separate hand held plastic scraper.
-Brian
We do have a brand of brush here in Canada (forgot the name of it) that has REALLY soft bristles. But is is so soft it can only remove the fluffiest of snow.
I've been brushing the snow off my cars with all kinds of brushes from cheap to fancy for the last 28 years, and I have never once damaged my paint. The type of scratch that may result from brushing doesn't go beyond the wax and can easily be buffed out in the spring. The sand and ice you will encounter while driving is much more likely to damage your paint than a brush is.
You OCD guys are very entertaining (sorry couldn't resist)
Sly
I think I have to reluctantly agree with Sduford regarding obsessing about this. My wife complains about it too. However, this is my first new car (I had a second hand one before this) and I guess you can understand how that might feel.
Does anyone have any dealer pricing information on this car?
I live in the Toronto area and would be paying cash....our current '97 Outback Limited will go to our youngest son. Any Subaru dealers that are willing to "deal" would be appreciated.
Many thanks for any suggestions.
Doug
The racing option went out when I decided I wanted to get the Outback Limited instead of the Legacy GT...... could not give up the creature comforts and the safety ratings.....but like in the Civic (which also never raced
Block heater. I cannot think of a downside of using one, other than electricity costs, which I suspect are minimal. I have not used one in my past two vehicles even with the extremely cold temps we get up here. I park outside during day, and my last OB had no difficulty starting. On extremely cold days (-10 F or below, usually in mid-Jan to mid Feb), I set my auto-start to cold weather mode...it automatically starts the vehicle every few hours, runs for 5 minutes, then shuts off.
I know what you mean about how slick Honda made trannys are. I've driven a lot of cars and I don't think anyone makes a MT like they do.
But with the OB Ltd you get a much better car!!!
tom
If you haven't already, check out the Subaru Crew - Canadian Owners thread at:
KarenS "Subaru Crew: Canadian Owners" Jun 25, 2003 12:34pm
Cheers,
Jay.
I drive a 2005 Legacy GT with the 5-speed automatic (5EAT) transmission. I also bought mine at Santa Cruz Subaru. I was just there yesterday afternoon getting my free oil change and tire rotation.
If you commute on highway 17, I think the GT would be well worth it -- especially if you take alternate routes when 17 backs up. The twisties are much more fun on the GT without a doubt!
One possible solution is that you rent an OB for those times you absolutely need fireroad capability. I don't know if you knew, but Santa Cruz Subaru rents Subarus. That way, you can buy the car that meets the majority of your needs.
Also regarding the crash test ratings: Keep in mind that the Outback has not yet been tested by the IIHS and the Legacy has not yet been tested by the NHSTA. The side impact test on the IIHS is more demanding than the NHTSA so it's not possible to make an apples-to-apples comparison quite yet.
Given that the two vehicles have identical crash structures, the difference would come from a 2 inch difference in ground clearance. It may or may not be significant.
Ken
I've seen dealers use a rubber type block on the end of a pole that seems not to damage paint.
What I do is actually wrap one of my 100% cotton American Made towels from my Zaino kit around the snow brush. It creates a block for moving snow and keeps the bristles from scratching.
I don't miss scraping snow off one bit!
At least Subaru offers heated mirrors and wiper de-icers, surely that helps.
-juice
Having learnt that one has to connect a block heater to an electrical outlet, that is also something which is ruled out. My garage is pretty warm and I do not need it at home. I would have liked to use it before coming home. But there is no place where I could connect it there.
Many thanks for the feedback. I will follow up on this.
Your suggestions will be put to good use. Thanks again.
Doug
I feel like the Outback may be the one for me. Trading a little bit of handling for the offroad capability I think is the best way for me to go.
I got an internet offer price from a local dealer for an Outback XT Limited with the manual tranny for $28900. Sticker is $31800. Anyone think I could push back on this price?
Last: c_hunter says the auto is best for off roading. I'm curious as to why that would be? I know the OB has no low range (if only) or hill descent feature. What about gearing? Is first gear pretty low so you can crawl if need be?
Thanks
I will definitely drive both and hope that the Legacy GT is not THAT much better than the OBXT on the road.
Offhand, that $3K under MSRP sounds pretty close to invoice or even slightly below. So it's probably a good price.
Auto is better because you would end up having to slip the clutch a lot in low speed off-road situations if you had a manual transmission. For instance, I regularly climb a steep rutted hill to visit a family cabin and it was a pain with my 00 Outback that had manual transmission -- could not go fast enough to keep 1st engaged and still steer around the gnarly stuff, so there was lots of clutching in and out and slipping the clutch to get going. With my 02 and now 05 outback with the auto trans, it's a piece of cake -- the torque converter soaks up all the minor speed adjustments. I just drop it into "1" with sportshift ang go.
This is really the same reason autos are recommended for towing, launching boats, etc...
Craig
http://automobilemag.com/toc/0501_toc/
May have to wait a few days before they put up his most recent Subie editorial online, still the WRX/Mustang article is fun.
Bob
Arrgghh - but I really prefer the manual! And the reviews say the auto has some problems syncing with the turbo etc. I do see your point. Probably it's not geared low enuf in 1st gear to crawl along?
As for the price, I checked and the price I got is $300 under Edmunds Invoice.
So if I must get an auto, perhaps I should move to the 6 cylinder engine? Then no worries about turbo lag and #s are the same so performance should be fairly comparable?
Yes, I know - get off my butt and go drive one. I will, but I've got a '98 Dodge Ramasaurus conversion van to sell before I can buy.
The H6 is smoother and more livable than a turbo motor, but it has quite a bit less torque and you can feel it. It's a classy motor (I had one in my last Outback) but not a match for the turbo in terms of acceleration and fun.
You can crawl along in 1st gear with the manual, but the rpms are too low to have any power at that low of a speed. It's certainly a lot easier to crawl with an auto and again, the torque converter allows more slippage and rpm variation. Doing the same thing with a manual transmission equals clutch stink. Keep in mind that the manual transmission might be fine for most offroading, I can just think of examples where the auto is better.
Craig
This time around, I called all three dealers in my area giving them equal shot at my business, and I was upfront about my price objectives and that I had called their competitors...best price wins. In the end, my previous Subaru dealer was unable to match the price offered by another, so I switched dealers.
Best of luck!
Cheers,
Jay
And no need to bash on me saying that the outback can not do serious offroading. I know it can handle going off road, but its not a rock crawler by any means, and that's the kinda stuff where you need an automatic.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The H6 is rated at the same 250HP, but it makes less torque at a higher RPM. It provides a nice and linear response, but won't give you the get up and go of the turbo. I haven't seen any performance numbers on the new H6, but it'll probably be slower than the H4 turbo.
I agree with Craig that the auto tranny is going to be better for very slow crawling maneuvers. Not only do you need to worry about clutch slip, but AWD drivetrains have more lash so an auto will drive smoother in those applications. Now there's also the difference in AWD systems between the two types, but I'll leave that for another discussion.
If you're getting prices close to invoice, it's a good buy. At that point, I'd shop for the better dealer. My recommendations in terms of service are Carlsen and Santa Cruz. I would not recommend Stevens Creek Subaru.
So, all it comes down to is driving a GT, OBXT and perhaps a OB LL Bean or VDC wagon. We're waiting for your reviews! :-)
Ken
It is very difficult to launch smoothly without spinning the wheels on a slippery incline. I would normally start in second gear but the lack of low RPM torque and the twitchy clutch make that all but impossible. You have to rev so much that it is counterproductive (not to mention stinky).
My Highlander with it's low-end torque, smooth power delivery, and auto tranny allowed me to launch smoothly without any wheel spin.
So I think the combination of turbo engine and manual transmission is less than ideal for slippery conditions and/or steep inclines/light offroading.