Lexus GS 300/GS 430

speedlux

overall this car look much better than the new 5, E, and STS. STS is an overgrown cts. I think GM rather spend time on mechnical than design to be different in all model.

hpowders

Going to the auto show today. Can't wait to see the new GS and compare its look to the new RL which will also be there.

lexusguy

I dont like the look of the STS either. Its like a short vesion of the SRX. The interior is definitely the best Cadillac has ever done...but thats still only enough for bottom of the class.

I was surprised at how small the RL looks in person. The GS looks much bigger and definitely grabs your attention a lot more. I think it has to do with the RL's big trunk vs. the GS which essentially doesnt have one. It makes the GS' cabin look huge by comparison.

hpowders

I like the GS look better than the RL now that I have seen both at the same time. The GS is very handsome from the back and front but not from the side-where it looks bloated. GS was roped off so I couldn't sit in it. Looked very smart in silver. The RL was white which I didn't care for. With the door open the interior looks pretty much like the GS it is replacing except for the darker gauges-a welcome change. RL driver's seat is comfortable but not as comfortable or maneuverable as the driver's seat in the LS-probably the most comfortable seat I tried at the show and I sat in a lot of driver's seats. Being 6'2" this is of prime importance to me.

lexusguy

Seat adjustments are not an Acura strong suit. They seem to think 8-way\4-way is good enough, when the rest of the competition has at least 10-way adjustments for BOTH seats. The LS seat is very good, but Volvo still has the best seats in the industry.

gantra

I sat in the current generation seats of the GS and the ES and thought the interiors of those cars were quite inferior to the new Acura RLs interior and seats.

I think it is a generational thing, where the newer car has been re-thought with greatly improved designs/systems and features. I think the same will hopefully be true of the GS. From what i've seen of the interior, it looks ultramodern -- even better than the RL. The NAV doesn't have a huge hole it's mounted in and the controls and surrounding panels are ultra-minimal and integrated and flush fitting.

It's really extremely advanced. The photos of the new BMW 3 series, for example, are rather backward looking in comparison.

hpowders

Lexusguy-you are right about the Volvo seats. My son-in-law rented a Volvo wagon and I was in a state of nirvana at how comfortable the driver's seat was.

hpowders

At the Tampa auto show I sat in the current generation ES and GS driver's seats and was very unimpressed with both. As a matter of fact I found the current Camry's driver's seat more comfortable!

hpowders

I totally agree. The new RL driver's seat is much more comfortable than either the current ES and GS as are their interiors inferior to the RL. Those gauges on the GS hurt my eyes. At least they will be changed for the better in the 2006 GS.

alpha01

Thats interesting, since the seats differ only in quality of the ES330's leather, as far as I know.

~alpha

lexusguy

I've tried chairs from Jaguar, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Lexus, even Rolls Royce. While many manufacturers brag about the type of leather they use (Jag and RR's Conolly for example) none of them seem to take the actual design as seriously as Volvo does. Apparently they are designed by a Swedish chiropractor, and 2005 models get Volvo's latest "generation" of seats. Yes, Volvo has generations of seats.

hpowders

Yes. The Volvo seat was the most comfortable seat I ever tried.

Kirstie_H

and now, back to the upcoming Lexus.

lexusguy

Interior looks great in parchment. Much better than black, I think.

boomsama

Looks nice. Thats the GS300 model according to the rear badging. Note the missing "EMV Controls" behind the gear shifter. Also 17" wheels and no chrome around lights.

boomsama

Does anyone know how the glove box works? It seems to be a push button. Also, the centre front armrest appears to be able to slide back to reveal more controls, like those found in the current GS.

lexusguy

Thanks for the link, that was some interesting reading. It appears as if the Lexus "AMG" is indeed in development.

bartalk2

How did you compute a mileage figure of 28mpg for the new GS300 on your earlier post? That would be highway, naturally, but not bad for a car of this power and weight.

lexusguy

I figured the GS300 would gain a healthy jump in mpg. The dated, steel twin-cam IL6 in the old car wasnt very fuel efficient.

boomsama

Those figures (if I recall correctly) are actually the mileage figures of the Crown Athlete's 3.0L V6 DI. Same engine, probably same transmission (6-speed) and same platform.

EDIT: I've just looked at the Toyota site and it appears that by looking at numbers alone (i dont know japanese sorry) it will only achieve about 20MPG. I'm not sure where I found those figures that I posted earlier, but I'm certain I read them somewhere. I'll try dig up the source.

gantra

I'm interested in getting on an MSRP waiting list in Socal. I tried at Hoehn Lexus in Carlsbad CA and they said it was too early.

Anyone know of any good dealers with a waiting list for the '06 GS?

mitchnik

Sheehy Lexus of Annapolis had only 2 on their waiting list as of 2 weeks ago. 410-266-3330. But with the official unveiling, I'm bettin' the list has grown.

boomsama

Are those four roundish rectangles on the front a new form of front parking sensors? Or are they part of the pre collision system thing. Sorry about the poor paint job.

lexusguy

Those are radar for the PCS\auto cruise control.

ceric

They look like ultrasound sensors to me.. 8-)

boomsama

Well it hit me...finally...

Yes the Toyota site says that the Crown Athlete 3.0 V6 DI has 11.8kilometres per every litre of fuel used. I thought it said 11.8 litres of fuel per 100kms (What we use down here in Aus). Anyway,

11.8km/L equates to 8.47L/100km
11.9km/L equates to 27.75MPG

So yes, it should be close to the GS300's fuel economy rating. Sorry for the misread.

dogface5

Interior looks great in black but not as nice as M IMO. GS300 with only 245/230lbft torque is a major disappointment, need at least 250lbft. It refers to a third model, is that GS AWD or something else?

lexusguy

They are refering to the AWD model. Lexus' tuner devision has yet to even be announced, so it wouldnt be in any brochures yet. I agree that the GS300's power is less than stellar, especially when compared to M35, RL, or Mercedes' upcoming 3.5L DOHC V6 that should make it into the E class soon. My guess is that when Toyota introduces their new 3.5L engine with the new Avalon, it will replace the GS300 with a GS350.

boomsama

The amount of power does matter, but don't forget that the delivery of power is just as important. 300hp is nothing if it can't be delivered.

boomsama

http://paris04.lexus-europe.com/show_highlights/index.asp for more info

Also, somehow I don't think the 3.5L engine will be replacing the 3.0L V6. I think the 3.5L will be teamed up with the hybrid, whilst when the time comes, the 3.0L V6 will be tweaked to provide more power (As we can see with the Crown Athlete which as 188kw and 314Nm torque)

dogface5

I don't think the GS will sport a manual tranny, but it does have the 6 speed auto that is found on the LS. The only issue I have with the new GS is its exterior. It looks too much like the Maxima, which is a bad thing IMO. The interior, however, is better than I had expected. As for the M, it will have a revised 5 speed auto. Someone was saying that the 3.5 L from Avalon will replace the 3L in the GS. The new Avalon is supposed to come out before the GS, so that would make no sense.

lexusguy

Lexus and manual transmissions generally dont mix very well. Only the SC for a few years and IS have ever had them. Plus it seems that many companies are dumping the stick in favor of a clutchless manual. Evidence: M5, A6. I've heard rumors that Lexus may even offer a SMG in the GS430 at some point. If the new Avalon is supposed to hit first... where is it? I've heard or seen abosultely nothing about a new Avalon showing up before 2007. The thing I dont understand is, why would Toyota give a $32K Avalon significantly more horses than a $40K+ GS300? Why continue to use a 3.0L when everone save BMW will have 3.5L 260hp+ engines in their V6 midsize offerings? (Ok Audi will have 3.2, but it will still outpower GS300.) That doesnt make any sense to me. If Lexus wants its GS to be taken seriously, having the lowest powered engine in the entire class isnt a good start.

bartalk2

Thanks for recalculating the GS 300 mileage. I take it you're from down under (the flag and the word "whilst" which you rarely see here.)

So, when you say 27.5 miles per GALLON, do you mean the Imperial gallon or the U.S. gallon? The former is slightly bigger, no?

P.S. Do you eat at Outback often? (Yes, I know it's an American company with no restaurants in Australia.)

dogface5

Avalon is supposed to come out early 2005 as a 2006 model. (source: edmunds.com) The new Avalon aside, Lexus could have squeezed more power out of the 3.3L (say around 260hp/240lbft) in the parts bin and stuck it into the new GS. It appears as if Lexus has used this "new" 3.0L for a reason and I don't think that they will get rid of it anytime soon.

dogface5

"The 3.0L V6 that is coming in the GS uses direct injection."

So what, Isuzu uses direct injection. That doesn't mean anything. It doesn't matter how advanced an engine is if it's underpowered.

lexusguy

As far as I know, Toyota's 3.3L V6 (which is derived from the old 3.0L) is designed for FWD applications, and is why its in Camry, and RX, and ES, and not GS and IS. I'm not entirely sure that Toyota could get that kind of power out of the 3.3L anyway. Toyota does not have a history of large power bumps through changes in engine breathing, exhaust, or compression ratios, like Honda and Nissan do. Instead, they simply bore the engine out to a larger displacement. If Toyota wanted to use the 3.3L for GS, they would most likely bore it out to 3.5 or more litres.

lexusguy

Not only that, but the new 3.0L V6 makes the old, steel twin-cam engine in the previous car look like a crank start engine from the Model T. The 3.0L inline was a great engine in terms of its ability to be tuned beyond belief, but it was pretty crude in todays terms.

You do have a point though Max, Lexus traditionally does well in terms of accel performance, despite lower hp than some of their competition. The LS makes only 290hp, but it out accelerates the Q45 and A8L, and is competitive with S500. The RX330 beats the pants of Germany's V6 SUVs, thanks to the German trucks weighing in excess of 2.5 tons.

boomsama

No problems for the calculations. It's US MPG. I don't think that Outback is actually in Australia heh.

lexusguy:

"BMW will have 3.5L" Isn't the next BMW's inline 6 only 3.0L? With the same torque as the current 6 cylinder but with just a bit more power? (190kw/300Nm). I think if Lexus really wanted to, they could easily up the power on the car to equal or surpass 190kw/300Nm.

ceric

The prime acceleration example is Infiniti as you said. The Q45 despite having 50bhp advantage and having similar weight to a LS430 is no faster. For that reason I see people over-reacting to *only* 245bhp. If it has a great 6-speed automatic, it may be end up being as quick or quicker than the M35 and 530i with the new 3.0L 6.

Guys, regarding 0-60 time, Q45 is not geared for a sprint run. However, one mag gives it 6.1sec. I have seen LS430 with 6.2sec also. Lexus give it 5.9sec, but I simply couldn't find one mag that agrees to that. Do you? To me, they are about on par.

My point is, unless you have a stick shift, torque , weight and gearing play major roles in 0-60 run. Look at the new RL's 300hp with auto only gives 6.7sec. The culprit is 260ft-lb torque and 3960lbs of weight.

Direct Injection of 3.0L still only gives about 240ft-lb of torque. No well enough for propelling 3600lb of vehicle and claiming to be fast. DI allows higher compression ratio, which means more torque from the same displacement. The Audi 3.1(or 3.2)L in A6 generates 245ft-lb. That is pretty impressive (compression ratio of 12.5!). The only engine I know that is higher than that is Toyota Prius' 1.5L Atkinson cycle ICE with 13.0 ratio. But that is an Atkinson ICE!

lexusguy

"Why continue to use a 3.0L when everyone save BMW will have 3.5L 260hp+ engines in their V6 midsize offerings?"

Everyone except BMW Max, I think the reason GS kept the 3.0L IL is that Toyota didnt have a better engine to use at the time. The IS300 makes less hp than their pedestrian ES, and I think the reason they didnt use the 3.3L V6 is that it cant be adapted to RWD.

ceric

Hi, Maxhonda99:
Even though I hit the "reply" button on your post, but my post was in general in response to conversation between you and others. My bad in that sense. And, I did said that "gearing" affects 0-60 time greatly. 8-)

On the other front, one reason that some sedans continue to use 3.0L engine is, in many countries (Japan included), the auto tax is tied to the displacement of engines. It does not make a lot of sense to Americans, but one big threshold is 3000cc. That is why displacement is always 29xx cc not 30xx cc to keep it below 3000cc threshold.

cove148

Lexusguy,

To answer your question, it makes sense for Avalon to come out with 3.5 270hp to compete against the Maxima which has a 265hp engine. I Think Maxima is considered Avalons biggest competitor. Also Avalon has been stuck with the 210hp engine for 5 years, with declining sales and an average buyer of 60 years old. They have to do something to appeal to the younger buyer and compete against Nissan.
The Avalon Future bulletin board is full of info. about the new model hitting in Feb. 2005. Several dealers I have talked to all mention this.
Look at message 511 dated Oct 31 on the Future Avalon.
Always interested in your educated opinion...

lexusguy

I dont think thats necessarily true. At no time in either of their respective histories have Avalon and Maxima really been rivals. Maxima was always Nissan's "four door sports car", something nobody would claim about Avalon. In years past, Altima was much smaller, and competed more with Civic, 626, and Corolla rather than Camry and Accord. The Altima has grown up, meaning the Maxima had to grow in size as well. I would still say Maxima's competition is Accord and Mazda6, though. Altima and Maxima kind of double-team on those cars now. If Toyota wants younger buyers to buy an Avalon, extra horsepower isnt going to do it. Avalon seems designed to fight Buick Century, and maybe to a lesser extent a Town Car. Avalon doesnt have a sporting bone in its body, and just throwing in a bigger engine wont make it fun to drive. Now that MR2 Spyder and Celica have gotten the axe, it seems Toyota is moving further away from youth, rather than trying to court it.

mitchnik

Actually, Toyota hasn't gotten away from courting the youth IMHO. To the contrary, they've just decided to do it under a different name...Scion.

lexusguy

I know, I just meant that under the Toyota badge, they seem to have accepted that Toyota buyers are aging, and have recently killed cars that didnt appeal to those buyers. Every now and then, Toyota tries to make some sort of "sport" version of one of its cars, (Camry and Solara SE, Corolla XRS) but its always a half-hearted effort, which makes me wonder why they even bother in the first place. If\when the Supra makes a US comeback, I think theres a chance it could be a Scion Supra (Or maybe a Lexus?). I just dont see sports car buyers going to a dealership with old-fogey boomers buying Siennas and Camrys. The Toyota badge just doesnt have the kind of appeal to kids like Nissan does these days. The best evidence of that is Toyota had to create a new badge to sell its JDM odd-ball subcompacts here. Honda and Nissan have xA and xB competition coming - with Honda and Nissan badges.

cove148

If Avalon does come out in Feb. with a new body style, (looks a whole bunch like the new GS) with a bigger hp engine than the GS300 for $15K to $20K less, it looks like an obvious choice, unless you have to have the Lexus brand. Also, the AWD is unproven and would be a concern. I have an Avalon and E320, the car of choice for both of us is the Avalon. Love to fall for the new GS, but how do you justify the cost difference?

lexusguy

If you like how your Avalon drives, then sure, the new one should be great. There's absolutely no evidence that Toyota will inject sporting DNA into the new car, though. GS, on the other hand, SHOULD be a tightly tuned, euro style sports sedan, something to replace your E class, rather than your Avalon. I dont recall pictures of the Avalon at Nürburgring. Also, the AWD is not unproven. Its the same system thats in RX330.

maxhonda99

YOu know what the Avalon(next gen.) looks like? Where are the pics? The only pics I have seen are pics of a heavily Camouflaged testing vehicle which showed basically no styling features except the basic shape.

Let's not forget for 15K to 20K less, it will also have alot less features. For example, no RWD or AWD. no VDIM, and a host of other features that will be available on the GS.

How is the AWD unproven? It's basically the system in the RX330.

cove148

pic's--Look at message 511 dated Oct 31 on the Future Avalon. Several post have shown pic. Who knows for sure?

boomsama

The pic is apparently the one thats black and white, looking like it was printed from a fax.

Don't forget that the GS is also RWD and has 6 speed auto. The engine has dual VVTi and DI too.