Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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Comments

  • mitchnikmitchnik Member Posts: 11
    The age old question.....a loaded Toyota or a Lexus? I have both and the Toyota is the better deal financially. Surprisingly, my Avalon has had no problems while my GS has had a few, which makes me feel good about the GS purchase! On a brighter note, Toyota is finally starting to move away on Lexus brand from using the same instrumentation and parts as they do on Toyotas. Compare the current GS with the RX330 and you can see the difference. It looks like the new GS will be much more like the RX330, distancing itself further from Toyota than say the RX300 did from a Highlander, which is definitely an improvement.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ultimately the Avalon just isnt and will continue to not be a luxury car. Its interior is probably the best of any non-lux brand in the world, but Toyota will not risk threatening the ES330 buy giving the Avalon too much in terms of luxury content and features.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Don't forget you're also paying for the service you get from Lexus dealers. I'd expect the materials to be better in a Lexus too.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yep, exactly. Dont expect a Toyota dealer to come to your house and pick up your Avalon for service, or wash it. Lexus leather and plastics are of much higher quality, and all Lexus cars and trucks use real wood, no fake stuff. If none of that is important, then sure, an Avalon may do just fine.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Huh...I saw that pic and it is pure speculation. It is not know if that will be the Avalon. Additionally, it looks nothing like the '06 GS.
  • mitchnikmitchnik Member Posts: 11
    Lexusguy, I agree that an Avalon is not a luxury car, but did you ever drive the Avalon right after/before an ES330? I've had the chance a couple times when I was given an ES330 as a loaner when the GS was being serviced. They handle surprisingly similar with the ES being only a bit tighter. As for the service, I never take advantage of Lexus picking up my car because I enjoy checking out the showroom; the car wash, well that's only $6 around here (Baltimore area) and the service from Lexus is much more than Toyota, alot more than 6 bucks in fact. My biggest complaint with Lexus is their never ending surveys. Just got my second one for the GS I bought in May. Then, every time you have your car serviced, you get a phone call and then at least one thing in the mail, if not 2. IMHO, the people at Lexus need a life. Those corporate idiots are in la-la land with their customer service garbage. Its so phony. If they would cut 1/2 of the customer surveys out and lower the price of the car, I'd be a happier person. I mean, it is just a car, or don't they know that.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The ES330 and Avalon are very similar. But that is expected given that they are born from the same platform. But this board is about the GS and somebody started comparing the Avalon to the GS, not the ES. The GS is a totally different car from the ES & Avalon.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well there are definitely going to be similarities, ES and Avalon are FWD sedans with similar engines and suspension setups. The similarities end once you get inside the ES though. The Avalon is very nice, but there's no comparison to ES330. I also expect the all-new '07 ES to pull further away from Camry and Avalon and be significantly more luxurious.

    image
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  • cove148cove148 Member Posts: 117
    The cabin size in the GS & the Avalon always felt larger than the ES. ES just felt to small and was not considered.
    Actually made decision on Avalon over GS300, because of the quality of the interior. The wood wheel offered by Avalon and not available on the GS300 was the difference. Nav is not of importance in my decision. Picture above is for the GS400 which beats avalon, but is a much higher price car.
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 594
    >Yep, exactly. Dont expect a Toyota dealer to come to your house and pick up your >Avalon for service, or wash it. Lexus leather and plastics are of much higher quality, and >all Lexus cars and trucks use real wood, no fake stuff. If none of that is important, then >sure, an Avalon may do just fine.

    That has to be for major service, not some simple maintenance like an oil change?

    And probably for service you pay for, not warranty work?
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    The pictures above are the Avalon and the ES arent they?

    wco81: they come to pick up your car for anything, regular services, oil changes, etc.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The car pictured below Avalon is the '05 ES330. Believe it or not, the ES330 has more interior room than the GS300. The Avalon is bigger, because the ES is identical in size to Camry.
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    The Avalon, when released, Toyota will try to compare it to the LS430 instead of the ES and GS. One is a large size and flagship Toyota and other is those of Lexus. In fact, the Avalon will probalby win in terms of rear seat leg room.

    With a 270 HP(+/-?), 5 SP auto, a luxury new Interier, A limited version will cost the same or more than the ES330. Just a example, Avalon will have laser cruiser control and ES does not.

    Of course, when the new ES come out, price and feature will be both upgraded and re-adjust the balance between Toyota and Lexus. But before that, you do have a higher grade Toyota than a entry level Lexus.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Not quite. A maximized Avalon is about $33K. ES330 can be had over $40K. Yes there are a few features ES doesnt have because cousin Camry is several years old and Avalon will be all new, but the ES will still be ultimately more luxurious.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You havent priced an Avalon lately. A loaded Avalon with NAV is actually about $36,500 at MSRP. And with the addition of standard leather last year, the Lexus is really hard to get over the $40,000 mark without opting for dealer installed accessories. A GS300 is significantly more than that with similar options.

    One clarification: Someone said that the Avalon and the ES330 ride the same platform. Not quite; they are both Camry based, but the current Avalon still rides the previous Camry platform, which ran from 92-01, spanning two generations of Camry/ES. The current ES/Camry has significantly enhanced rigidity and design compared to the 92-01, though Im not sure if it technically qualifies as all-new.

    ~alpha
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    TEchnically, the ES hasn't been on a all-new platform since 1992. The 1992 platform was all new from the 1991 ES250/Camry. Since 1992, the 1997 Camry/ES300 used a modified version of the 1992 platform, and the same 2002 Camry/ES330 modified it further.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    From my understanding, the platform was VERY significantly changed for the 2002 upgrade, far more so than for the 1997. Toyota considers the current an all new platform, but they never said that about the 1997 vs. the 1992.

    ~alpha
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 594
    So how much do they charge for an oil change if they have to pick up your car and deliver it after the job?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    About $100.

    Hey, nothing in life is really ever free!
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 594
    For $100, I could just drop the car off and then have a really nice meal while waiting for it to be done.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Depends on the person. Having Rehal take care of my LS's every need on THEIR time is a great benefit to me.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    The GS seems to be looking better than ever with it coming to "life"
  • mechrad1mechrad1 Member Posts: 26
    I just received the initial brochure for 06 gs. they proudly anounce 245 HP. I would expect more given the hp of Maxima, new avalon, RL, TL and infiniti brands. Is there something special about this engine? Why have less hp than Avalon?

                                Bill
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Well the engine has dual VVT-i, and also Direct Injection. Perhaps Lexus has a secret they're not willing to reveal yet, such as the 0-62 time.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yep, it seems like just 3.0 litres and 245hp is the real deal. Thats reasonably competitive with A6 3.2, 530i, and STS V-6, but well below Mercedes E350, M35, and RL, which are Lexus' more logical competition anyway. Frankly Im surprised the engine doesnt have at least 20 more ponies.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Power doesnt tell the whole story. For all its 300 hp, according to Car and Driver, the Acura RL can manage a 0-60 of only 6.7 seconds with a very unimpressive 7.8 seconds in the "Street Start", a measure of the performance that everyday people are likely to extract by just slamming the go pedal, as opposed to brake torqueing.

    Heck, 6.7 is only 3 tenths quicker than a $24,000 Accord LX V6, and indeed, power/torque for the price was a gripe of the C/D editors.

    My point- I care less about the hp/torque numbers than I do about the actual performance portfolio, and I'd imagine many might feel similarly. So before putting the GS300 at a disadvantage, lets see what kind of performance the vehicle posts.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    6.7s for the RL is disappointing to many people because they expected it to be lower since the car has 300hp.

    In reality however, the 6.7s is class leading among V6 automatic sedans in its class. The 530i, E320, A6 3.2, GS300, and STS V6 are all low 7 sec cars. In fact, I guess the RL is the first car in its class (V6 auto luxury performance sedans) to break 7 seconds, especially impressive since it is AWD. AWD usually adds about .2 to .3 seconds.

    In any case, Lexus's decision to go with a 245 hp GS300 doesn't surprise me. Toyota has never been into the horsepower wars. Most of their cars are near the bottom in terms of power... yet they sell like hotcakes.

    With the GS300, they're going the 530i route: a light, gas-efficient 6-cylinder that should be good for handling and weight distribution.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    for the RL, IMO, is that despite its class leading performance for a V6, it produces V8-like horsepower, but not V8 acceleration. There is no up-engine option for the RL.

    OTOH, its reasonable to expect that the next GS430, with the same 300 hp engine that is available now (and the same hp rating as the RL), but with a more agressive 6 sp transmission... will need sub 6 to hit 60.

    ~alpha
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    I suspect Lexus might just up the power after GS300 sales go down.

    Lexus might be able to make their cars go fast without all the horses.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Theres a major difference between RL and GS430. Horsepower is the same, yes. But torque is not. The 4.3L V8 makes 325lb.ft of torque. RL only makes 260lb.ft, at a lofty RPM, like all Honda engines. Thats less torque than the '05 Infiniti G35 sedan. You just cant compete with a V8 with only 260lb.ft of torque. The only way for Honda to make up that down low grunt would be a IMA Hybrid RL, which Im sure they will come out with soon.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Should we expect the GS430 to have a lower fuel consumption than the LS430?
  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    "AWD usually adds about .2 to .3 seconds."

    In a 5-60 street start the extra weight of the AWD system usually makes the car slower. However, in a 0-60 mid-high rpm launch the AWD usually improves (or at least matches) 2wd times due to the increased traction of having four tires putting power to the road. (Assuming stock tires on both cars :) This is why AWD vehicles tend to have large differences between 0-60 and 5-60 times.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The GS430 engine is a carry over, so I wouldnt expect much if any difference from the current car. GS300 economy should be up significantly, though.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I saw GS and its competitors at the Boston Auto Show. M45 was the only one missing. GS was in a roped off turntable. I thought it was the most impressive exterior design there, absolutely stunning. Pictures don't give it enough credit. Now I believe when Toyota promises GS to be the beginning of Lexus' new Japanese styling. It's hard to single out the things that make it so stunning, so it'll be very hard for competitors to duplicate, if they want to do so. Maybe I won't be so excited on second looks?

    RL has impressive interior, but its exterior has nothing to set it apart from Hondas. I thought I'd get more excited about A6 than I was. I was least impressed by STS. It's full of cheap hard plastic. They make sure it's not in places where your hands normally would touch, but your knees certainly would. And boy, did I ever notice!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    I saw the new GS at the Tampa auto show. It was also roped off. The best I could do was to get an employee to open the front driver's door so I could see the interior. Hard to view from 15-20 feet away. I was also quite impressed with the exterior. Beautiful in silver.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Wow! you're one of the last people I would expect to say you actually liked a Lexus design!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats basically my feeling on the cars as well. The TL looks radically different from its predecessors, but the RL does not. Its like a super sleek version of the '96 RL, when the Legend stopped being fun and went Buick. The new RL will obviously sell better than the outgoing car, but I think it will still be the also ran when compared to GS, M, STS, 5, E, and A6.

    The STS's interior problem is partly materials, but its also the design. Its completely uninspired. There's more to a nice interior than just using some wood and some leather. It has to fit together in a sleek and cohesive package. The GS430 got that part right, and the M45 absolutely hit the bullseye in that department. Its the best Nissan interior I can ever remember. The STS just seems like they threw some parts together without any thought...just like pretty much ever other GM interior.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    I've just been thinking, it can't be right for Lexus to come up with a new 3.0L V6, and then a 3.5L V6 with Toyota a few months later. Do you guys think that the 3.5L V6 will just be a 3.0L V6 with a larger capacity? e.g. 3.0L (1MZ-FE) to 3.3L (3MZ-FE).
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Is Toyota selling the new GS in Japan yet?

    Still called Aristo over there? Or are they now marketing the Lexus brand in Japan?
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    I read an article today from SAE, it mentioned the GS share the rear suspension with the Japan Crown. Crown also has a 3.0L engine and it is the first Toyota on the new lexury platform. GS is the first Lexus on that platform, and I suspect the new IS will be also. 3.0L is for the GS, and 3.5L is for the avalon.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    jrock65: No, the GS will be sold as a Lexus in Japan for the first time. The GS will probably be released by Lexus as a Lexus GS next year in Japan as well.

    sorter: 3.0L in a performnace sedan and a 3.5L in a family car just doesn't sound right.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats the same question I've been asking for months. The GS' competition is all using 3.5L mills except for Audi and BMW. They all have more horses. If Toyota has a 3.5L 260+ hp engine... why not use it?
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    Not idea why use the 3.0. Reason might be BMW. Also you will have to consider GS will later add something in between. Then the 3.0 is actually against the 525, which has avantage.

    It doesn't make sense when you have a 270hp V6 and still try to sell a 300hp V8 either.

    Once again, the IS, GS is aiming at BMW mainly.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    max, I still think all the current Lexus designs are kind of dowdy.

    Caddy is making a big push in Europe and Asia with STS, so are Lexus and Infiniti. From what I can see it's not going to be very successful. The exterior is nothing special, the interior's kind of cheap. Toyota & Nissan have rep and track record overseas compared to GM.

    "Once again, the IS, GS is aiming at BMW mainly."

    In US, everyone's aiming at BMW. But do you know that in Germany, A8 is considered superior to S-class and 7er technologically? Things probably will change when new S comes along. And Audi outsells BMW in every European country except Britain?

    Personally, I think Lexus has had and will have more success going after MB. Chasing BMW, that's Infiniti thing!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Dont count on Cadillac selling any cars in Europe or Asia. Except maybe China, because GM is doing well there. The STS will work against Europe and Asia HERE in the US, (at least for the buy American crowd), but Europeans dont buy Cadillacs.

    I agree that Lexus' archrival has always been and will continue to be Mercedes-Benz, not BMW. LS vs. S, GS vs. E, RX vs. ML. Their sole BMW fighter was IS300, and we all know how well that turned out. My guess is the new IS is still going to retain most of the original's fun factor.. but become more C320 or A4 than 330i.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    I'm just thinking will the 3.5L V6 be a tweaked version of the 3.0L V6 in the new GS300.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Even if it is, like the current 3.3L engine is to the old 3.0L, those two engines didnt really exist at the same time, except for a few variations of the Camry for little while. The 3.3L engine replaced the 3.0L in every Lexus model, and most Toyota models.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I remember with the current GS when it first came out, the mags and Toyota itself made more comparisons against the 5 than against the E.

    On an unrelated note, what do you guys think of the bulge in the headlight? This is also conspicuous on the FX as well. Kinda gives the car a bug-eyed look... I don't think I like it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well regardless as to what Toyota ads or the magazines might say, I think more people were likely to comparison shop an E with the GS than a 5 series. The old car made a poor 5 series, even with the essentially unadvertised L-tuned suspension. That may change though, as now the 5 series makes a poor 5 series.
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    There are not too many new things the 06GS can bring in addition to what the 05 already offered. Maybe Laser Cruise or Run Flat, and the AWD. But those are hardly anything new when you consider the Sienna is equipped with all those option. Powertrain wise, it is less than a minor difference. some might argue they like the I6 better than V6, V8 of course stay the same. So if the Chassis of the new GS doesn't make it on top of the 5, then nothing will, and lexus will sell the GS for neglectable market share for the next 6 to 7 years.
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