Lexus GS 300/GS 430

lenscap

While the specs have yet to be finalized, the production GS has already been shown. It has been making the rounds at various auto shows this year, and first appeared in Detroit in January 2004. This is the final production car in terms of exterior, interior, etc. Pretty much everything except for the fact engines have not been finalized. Check out lexus.com and read the press release dated 1/6/04 that is titled "Lexus Introduces Third-Generation GS Luxury Sports Sedan." At the bottom of the release they list the engines as a 3.0V6 and 4.3V8, but it also says specs are preliminary.

maxhonda99

lenscap,

You may see minor changes such as the grille changed and wheels besides features, amenities, and engine specs.

The last GS they debuted was basically production ready when it was on the auto show circuit, but when it came to final production specs, the grille and wheels changed, so you may see slight, very slight, tweaking this time too on the exterior and interior styling.

lexusguy

The the car at the Detroit '04 show was like 95% production ready, similar to the M45 concept. Much like Honda, Toyota generally keeps their cards very close to their chest until the last minute.

lenscap

maxhonda99 - I remember when the last GS was introduced at the auto shows because my family bought one soon after it came out. I still have the photos I took, and it looks like the only thing that changed from concept to production was the grille (the larger optional production wheels on the GS 400 were the same as the concept). However, that car was labeled as a concept car. You'll note the upcoming GS is not being called a concept car but the 2006 GS.

That being said, you may be right and perhaps there may be a change or two, we'll have to wait and see. I can't wait for this car to hit the road, it looks great to me.

hydroman1

lenscap, I agree; the 2006 GS looks great, even though it has somewhat of a Maxima look to it. My wife needs a new car, so we recently test drove the 2004 GS300 and loved it (she now drives a '90 Maxima). We also drove the G35 (fun to drive - but not quite the refinement of the Lexus) and the M45, which was quite impressive but also didn't seem to match the attention to detail we found in the GS300. Her Maxima is long in the tooth, but we've gotta drive the 2006 GS before we commit...

lexusguy

If you like the '04 GS300, I would strongly suggest you pick up a CPO car. The car has had absolutely no changes since the '01 freshening, and you could pick up a CPO V8 with Nav and mark levinson for less than a base GS300.

If you liked the G, I would also suggest trying the Acura TL, as well as the new RL.

cove148

Lexus guy,

What I have been reading is Avalon will come out in Feb with a 275hp in the redesign. Surly this engine is available to Lexus. Why not use it?

How would you rate the new Acura RL against the GS? Acura.com has all the details. Plus dealers have already drove the car. Due out in Mid Oct in the $47K range. Think it also has a 275hp engine.
Looks like a sweet car.

autophile

I'm also looking at both the new Lexus GS and the Acura RL, as both will have 4WD. The RL is the larger car:Length=193.6 for RL,189.8 for GS; Width=72.7 for RL,71.7 for GS; Height=57.1 for RL,56.1 for GS. The RL has a 300hp engine, as will the GS430 (GS300 is 245hp). Both R&T and C&D have very favorable "First Drive" reviews of the RL in their October issues. It sounds like a winner, but the GS looks better, and it's a Lexus... But there will probably be close to a $10k advantage for the Acura when comparably equipped with the GS430. Tough call.

cove148

If indeed if the GS300 comes out with a 245hp, then I think I would choose the Acura, want the extra kick in my old age and have been driving the under powered E320.

lexusguy

From what I know, that engine in the Avalon will be Toyota's new 3.5L V6, which Lexus will use for the IS350\GS350GT cars. Chances are it will end up in an ES350 and RX350 as well. (Maybe even an SC350). At the moment, Toyota has two V6s that it uses for its cars and car based SUVs, the 3.3L derivative of the old 3.0L V6 that is used for front drive apps, and the 3.0L in-line that is used for rear drive apps. The in-line is getting the axe, and I'm guessing that the 3.3L engine will as well, with Toyota's new 3.0L and 3.5L 6s taking their places, in both front and rear drive apps.

Acura has the advantage of getting the jump on Lexus and Infiniti, both of which wont have their new mid size contenders ready until Q1 of next year. Its engine is a highly tweaked version of Acura's 3.5L engine that makes 300hp and 260ft\lb of torque. The big news about this car though is Acura's SH-AWD system, which can shift torque levels side to side and even change rear wheel speeds to aid in cornering. It is shaping up to be the biggest advance in AWD since Audi's Quattro. Acura is pricing it against the V6 versions of Lexus, Infiniti, and Audi's new cars, and it should come in well below a comparably equiped 530i or E320\350. What remains to be seen though is whether people are going to be willing to spend $50K on an Acura.

I should note that both the GS300 and M35 will offer AWD, but their V8s are rear drive only.

mitchnik

As of earlier this week, the sales manager at Lexus of Annapolis said early March but he would hearing word very soon. Well, the word is later. Lexus of Annapolis as of today says the earliest they will have a 06 GS is late April and Len Stoler in Baltimore says early May. In fact, a friend went to Lexus/Annapolis and picked up a 05' GS Brochure and they are taking special orders on the 05'. I suspect it will be pushed back further if they're selling 05's.

lexusguy

Interesting. It looks like they are going to be the last ones to the party, as the BMW and Merc are already mid-cycle, and Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti and Acura will all have theirs out before then.

sorter

Any guess on What would be the price for AWD V6?

lexusguy

My guess is somewhere around $46K.

wco81

CPO?

When is the new GS due?

What would be a good price for the current GS300? Is the NAV in the Lexus worth it?

Is it probable that the current model will be discounted more when the new model comes out?

lexusguy

CPO means certified pre-owned. The dealer does a full inspection of the car, and it is backed by Lexus to 7 years or 100,000 total vehicle miles. You could get an '01 GS430, fully optioned with the 17" wheels, mark levinson and NAV, like $5K just in options, with around 40K miles, for as low as $28K. Its EXACTLY the same as an '04 model, and would have 4yr\60K of CPO warranty. If you like the GS300, you've got to try the V8. Its a completely different animal. You wont be able to go back to only 225hp. The 300 doesnt get better mileage either.

As for the Navigation, its the best in the industry, so I would say yes, its worth it. It makes systems from BMW, Audi, and M-B look like a joke in comparison, like they were designed by monkeys. (Ok German engineers with no regard for user-friendlyness). Only Acura's system comes within a country mile.

The new GS is scheduled for Q1 '05.

sorter

IS will be redesigned fall of 05, and ES will be out one year after GS. Basically most of the Lexus car line up will be redesigned. With more performance orient design and hybrid engine, how can Lexus lose?

wco81

But it's my mother who wants a GS300 now.

Told her the new models are coming out within the year and current models are going to look dated by comparison.

Only silver lining may be that they may have to discount to clear inventory before the release of the new models.

lexusguy

Lexus says their entire line of cars will be new by 2007, which may or may not include SC, but I would expect to see a complete redeisgn of SC by 2008. I seriously doubt Lexus will allow it to stay on as long as the previous car did. Its certainly not as if Toyota cant afford to do it. You can definitely expect discounts on GS. The car hasnt been selling well for years.

wco81

They quoted no better than sticker for a GS300 here (Silicon Valley).

The TMV price at Edmunds also show a price pretty close to sticker as well for my area.

hydroman1

Ditto from the Gulf coast...

mrdlexus

In Massachusetts you can get a 2004 GS300 for 5k off of sticker. I purchased a GS300 that had sticker of $41,794 for $36,794. Around here there isn't much supply so you would have to take what the dealer had on the lot. My dealer had only one at the time.

wco81

They quoted no better than sticker for a GS300 here (Silicon Valley).

The TMV price at Edmunds also show a price pretty close to sticker as well for my area.

lexusguy

Which again raises the question as to why you would buy new in the first place. '02 or '03 CPO cars will be at the very least 5K under new MSRP, and the engine performs much better when it passes the 10K mile mark anyway. You have to baby it for the first 1500 miles or so.

boomsama

Just asking, why does the engine perform much better after the 10K mile mark?

I'm also assuming that your lexus is CPO as well?

Thanks.

lexusguy

Up to around the 10-15K mark the engine is still "green" and not yet performing at its peak. After this point, you may find that 0-60 times can improve by as much as .5 seconds versus a new engine.

boomsama

I've just found out that the new MB 3.5L has 200kw and 350Nm, even though it's probably old news. How's Lexus, and even BMW and Audi going to fight back?

wco81

Is it the same as they would give on a new one?

You're saying a CPO 2002 or 2003 model with about 10k miles would be $5k below the 2004/2005 sticker?

My guess is that my mother would still want the new one.

lexusguy

Yes, MB has finally given up on their trademark 3-valve, SOHC design for a 4-valve DOHC like the rest of the industry. It powers the new SLK350 making 268hp with a seven speed auto tranny. I'm not entirely sure when the C\E320s will be given the new engine. BMW has a new 3.0L 250hp inline 6, and Audi has a new 3.1L FSI V6 that also makes 250hp. Lexus will counter with their new 3.0L 245+hp V6, and the mystery 3.5L engine, which should make 280hp+.

wco81, at least $5K under the sticker of a new car, otherwise there would be no incentive to buy used. Also, a lightly used CPO GS would actually have a longer warranty than a new one, as Lexus CPO cars are warrantied to 7 years\100K miles.

mitchnik

"Up to around the 10-15K mark the engine is still "green" and not yet performing at its peak. After this point, you may find that 0-60 times can improve by as much as .5 seconds versus a new engine."
 
   While my 04' GS300 seems to have gotten' a bit "pepier" at 6800 miles, I would be real surprised if it makes that kind of improvement. Actually, I'd be happier if the gas mileage would increase. With premium unleaded, it has alot to be desired. My 01' Avalon routinely gets 29+ on the highway (w/regular unleaded) while the GS can't even seem to come close. In fact, the Avalon does better at speeds 65-70 while the GS does worse. I would expect the new model GS to do better.

lexusguy

Yeah thats one of the unfortunate aspects of Toyota's old inline, fuel economy was never one of its strengths. Their new Vs should improve on that somewhat, but remember they will still be performance oriented engines, rather than the more mainstream 3.0L V6 thats in the Avalon and Camry. The GS300's economy certainly isnt great, but its comparable to Nissan's 3.5L.

boomsama

then how are BMW's engines able to combine performance with such good economy?

lexusguy

BMW's double vanos inline is a much more advanced engine than Toyota's. Also, the 3 series has a lot less weight to lug around.

boomsama

Will the new engines be able to meet the economy of vanos? Or is this why toyota is deciding to go with hybrid methods instead.

lexusguy

I would expect fuel economy on these new V6s to go up considerably.

boomsama

One thing confuses me greatly...
This site claims that the GS300 revealed at the Paris motor show 2004 will only have 176kw (236hp) Is this just an error? Or has Lexus detuned the engine even more.

http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/portal/alias__carpointau/tabID__64- 91/ArticleID__6589/DesktopDefault.aspx

autophile

The '05 Acura RL with 4WD has a retail price including destination of $49,470. A comparably equipped GS will likely be well over $50k, but you won't be able to get your hands on one until mid to late summer in all likelihood. So, I've given up one the idea of having a GS to take on our summer trip and am trying to decide whether to buy an RL or keep our BMW for another year.

saugatak

BMW's old inline 6 has double variable valve timing on intake on each of its 2 overhead cams. The new inline 6 also has variable valve timing on exhaust, so the exhaust gas is put to work instead of just being released. Also, the new inline 6 is designed to be higher revving.

One disadvantage to the inline 6 design is that because the cylinders are all in a line, the crankshaft is very long and is subjected to greater torsional pressure than the shorter crankshaft used in say a v6.

BMW claims that by using magnesium in the crankshaft, its new inline 6s will rev higher (i.e., turn the crankshaft faster and thus generate more power) and still be able to withstand the greater torsional pressure.

I don't think Toyota's inline 6 was as advanced as BMW's inline 6 in a number of ways. It certainly didn't have VVT on exhaust, not many cars do, as most of the benefit of VVT is gained on intake.

lexusguy

I would wait for Lexus to release official specs for the production car. Oh, and according to Motorweek's test of the RL, it does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds. Not bad, but not competitive with the other's V8s.

mariner7

Is it true GS430 is RWD only? What's the reason? Infiniti says M45 is RWD only because the AWD hardware doesn't fit in the engine bay. That might be the same for Lexus.

lexusguy

Yes, GS430 will be RWD only. As for the reason, not sure. If its a space issue, the GS350GT could be AWD then.

autophile

In the Nov. issue of Motor Trend the 0-60 time for the new Acura RL is 6.0 (compared to Motorweek's 6.5). If the 6.0 time is right, the RL would be competetive with most of the V8's, but I don't think the Acura has the same cache as Lexus, and certainly isn't as nicely styled as the new GS.

lexusguy

Yeah the RL isnt bad, but I was hoping for more of the agressive lines like on the TL and TSX. The RL is more asian-generic.

jrock65

The 6.0s for MT is an MT estimate, not a real test.

ceric

No one has done former test on RLs. Those numbers flying around are all estimates so far.

boomsama

Just wondering, is Toyota's diret injection on their new 3.0L V6 the same as Audi's FSI?

mariner7

RL reminds me of the last generation of Chrysler cab-forward sedans. But technologically it's awesome, kind of embarassing E/5/A6 on a wet track. I've never heard of quattro being outclassed in the wet before.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7620&sid=18- 3&n=157

Lexus and Infiniti have got to hope it doesn't do same to them!

lexusguy

Looks like there's a new AWD king eh? Audi's Haldex\Torsen systems have some modernizing to do.

eds1

I've been a big GS fan for over 9 years and I am 5 months past my lease expiration on my GS430. The bottom line is that I am not going through another winter with a rear-wheel drive car and I am tired of waiting for the new GS to come out. When I heard that the 8 cyl. will be rear wheel only, that pushed me over the edge (not to mention that Lexus refuses to reduce my monthly payment on the lease extension). Audi, here I come.

lexusguy

Wouldnt the RL be a more logical choice to go to from a GS?