Lexus GS 300/GS 430

autophile

I agree, the RL makes more sense, particularly given Audi's poor reliability record.

sorter

Audi has always been and will always be in the shadow of Benz and BMW, Why take the step back from the world class? (Hope it is not a demotion or a divorce...LOL)

I agree with par, RL is not different than an audi in term of class.

lexusguy

"reliability isn't everything and the RL isn't any more of a logical step than the audi is... "

If you buy a Lexus GS over a German car in the first place, chances are reliability is something you're going to be at least moderately concerned with, as that's the Lexus' strongest selling point. Acura has a very strong reputation for quality and reliability just like Lexus. Audi does not.

autophile

lexusguy, you are right on all counts.

lexusguy

Hard to tell at this point, but you may be right. I'm starting to think Acura and Infiniti's new cars (the Infiniti especially) are more attractive and more interesting. The Acura and Infiniti also have very cool interiors, where as the pictures I've seen of the new GS so far just show a rather bland evolution of the outgoing car's somewhat lackluster interior. Also, provided Nissan can get the gearing right this time, the M45 will have at least a 45hp advantage over GS430.

boomsama

The new 3.0L V6 will have DI, so it could just be the Crown Athlete's V6.

boomsama

Just looked a release on the Lexus Australia website, the car will be here in March, but it says the brochures will be available in April

boomsama

Anyone know if the GS is getting rear LED lights like the RX400?

maxhonda99

I'm pretty sure from looking at pictures that the '06 GS does have LEDs. I think all cars, starting at luxury cars, are getting LEDs as they are redesigned.

lexusguy

Yeah LED seems to be the "it" thing now. A lot of concept cars have LED headlights.

boomsama

Really? The new A6 doesn't appear to have them.

Anyway, I did some "calculations" and it appears that the new V6 engine will be quite economical, with an average of 8.47L/100km, or 28MPG (US).

dogface5

I don't think that the GS will have LED headlights when it first goes on sale next spring. Although Lexus LF-C has LED headlights, the GS shown at NAIAS does not. It probably will have LED taillights and turn signals since just about everyone else does.

boomsama

Am I right when I say Lexus doesn't know how to make a supportive front seat?

lexusguy

I dont think its necessarily that they dont know how, its just that uber-sport seats with massive side bolsters would look a little strange in your average Lexus. If they want the next GS and IS to be taken more seriously though, perhaps some more agressive seats are in order.

boomsama

Just a bit off topic, what are bucket seats?

geoffmalter

Just put a deposit on a 2003 GS300 with 20k, certified. I'm in So. Caif. but do travel to areas with inclement weather (i.e. Seattle). Is rear wheel that bad? We have an RX300 and an Infiniti with front wheel drive. Should we go with the 2005 ES330 for the same money? Thanks.

lexusguy

If you like the GS I dont think you're going to like the ES. Its about as fun to drive as toaster. I think you'll be fine, the GS has traction and skid control. Ultra high performance "summer" tires would be a bad idea for that kind of thing, but something a little tamer should do just fine.

boomsama

Just a more personal question if I may ask. If the GS turns out to be a great car, with driving dynamics nearly reaching the 5 series' level, and also a great ride, would you buy it? Thanks.

lexusguy

Anything is possible, though I'm not really in the market for a new sedan at the moment. I'm also waiting to see what Lexus does with the next LS, as thats what I'm driving now.

r1_97

The new ES w/ front wheel drive is more stable in wet (Seattle) weather and probably will cost less in gas, and repair. Also it's a new model. The GS will age substantially after the '06 model comes out in mid '05. If the rather limp handling of the ES doesn't bother you, I'd got for it, especially if you intend to keep the car for >5 years. Test drive them both. You'll not go wrong with either.

gantra

I've evaluated the new Acura RL and like it. I'm now looking at the Infiniti M45 and the Lexus GS 430 '06 models. Are there any updates regarding when the GS will be released and the exact specs for the car including options? Seems like everything i've found so far is really vague - No details about the options or features in the car. For example, will the back seats recline and be heated? Will there be an option for a rear seat DVD entertainment system like in the Infinity M45?

lexusguy

It is true that the 3.3L V6 is more fuel efficient than the 3.0L inline, despite a few more ponies. I'm not sure why repairs would be cheaper though. Its not actually a new model. The ES is just slightly freshened for '05, with revised head and tail lights, and some tiny changes in the interior, the biggest of which is a new steering wheel. The all new ES will come with the next Camry in '07.

Gantra, unfortunately Lexus tends to keep their cards very close to their chest, so there really isnt much in the way of concrete data on the new GS. No one even knows for sure yet if its going to get the 245hp V6 or Avalon's new 270ish hp 3.5L V6. As for a release date, its going to be somewhere around late Q1 to early Q2 of '05.

boomsama

Lexus says that the GS will be released feb/mar 2005.

maxhonda99

I would think some repairs would be cheaper on a ES330 vs. a GS300 because of the ES330's Camry routes. This would really come into play in engine and driveline parts. Also with the ES having MacPherson strut design, suspension components are definately cheaper. Also, when he is saying the ES is cheaper to maintain he may also be meaning it's would be cheaper due to the ES having less complex features.

lexusguy

Possibly. But I think most run of the mill type stuff would be similar between the two cars. When it comes time for major engine work yeah, but that doesnt exactly happen often.

boomsama

Does anyone know what sort of suspension the GS will have?

lexusguy

Most likely independent double wishbone, front and back. The only Lexus sedan to use a strut type suspension is the ES.

maxhonda99

Double Wishbone independant is a good bet with some use of aluminum components.

boomsama

Double wishbone are the suspension that dramatically improves ride and handling doesn't it? Makes it more sport too?

lexusguy

Not exactly. The previous car has double wishbones as well, and its not exactly the sportiest car in the world. BMWs use MacPhearson struts like a Toyota Camry, but obviously there's a pretty significant handling difference there. How the suspension is tuned: for dynamic or more relaxed driving, is going to affect the handling of the car much more than the actual componentry used. The nice thing about air suspensions is it gives the driver some control over suspension tuning, rather than just the engineers.

maxhonda99

Actually, BMWs use MacPherson design front suspensions and multi-link rear suspensions.

Agreed though, that it's all in the tuning.

maxhonda99

Here are some pics of the '06 GS caught undergoing testing at Nürburgring:

http://www.carfreaks.net/albums/ringtesting04/IMG_0219.jpg

http://www.carfreaks.net/albums/ringtesting04/IMG_0302.jpg

http://www.carfreaks.net/albums/ringtesting04/IMG_0303.jpg

http://www.carfreaks.net/albums/ringtesting04/IMG_0304.jpg

lexusguy

I like that the badges we removed, like no one would know what car it is. Well, the fact that its being tested at the infamous Nurburgring track at all I think is a good sign that Lexus is goint to take the GS more seriously this time. I know Acura took their RL there and put it against a Skyline, so Lexus had better make sure its fast if they want to compete this time.

boomsama

Is Nürburgring in Holland where BMW and Porsche test their cars? Or is that somewhere else?

sorter

The lights look terrible. the raer looks like an accord. I will say the new Avalon looks better than this.

boomsama

The GS looks somewhat "not as good" as it did in other photos. Perhaps this is because the photo is looking downwards on the vehicle? Even though it's specs are lower than the RL, it looks a bit "top-heavy".

gantra

GS looks awesome. I love the paint color.

maxhonda, thanks for the links. I wasn't able to find the car at the carfreaks site using the navigation there. How did you find those photos?

lexusguy

The photos dont do it much justice. I've seen the car in person at the NYAS, it looks much better up close. It was grabbing a lot more attention than the RL, which only had a few lookers. The RL isnt bad looking, but its not exactly a head turner either.

boomsama

In the photos the car doesn't look like it has much body roll. Also looks like the driver is having fun.

lexusguy

Still has the sloped rear glass and ultra short rear deck of the previous design. The back looks a lot better than the RL's, imo.

sorter

When I saw the car in the Detroit autoshow, my feeling was that the car is not that much different than the current GS. but those photos shown (even they are the same as the one in autoshow) somehow looks much worse. The current Generation might be underpower and underperform, but I think it looks way better than the 5s and the Es. Personally I think the GS is a step back in terms of styling.
And forget about the RL, which is another Styling disappointment. Plus GS is targeting BMW and Benz, not really the RL.

maxhonda99

I found those pics/links on Clublexus.com.

Personally, I think it looks the same in those pics as on the pics from the Detroit Auto Show.

I like the overall design. THe only 2 things I would change for production and that are easily doable would be the styleless grille and the chrome trim around the headlights. Not a big fan of those 2 aspects of the styling. Still this new one looks alot better than the outgoing GS, which simply hasn't aged well. I never liked the bug eyed look of the front end of the droppy rear inset tailights.

lexusguy

The biggest complaints I had with the previous car were those little round "extra" tail lights, the fact that the rear deck looked weak without the spoiler, and that the 16" standard alloys looked way too small and did not flatter the car at all. 17"s should've been standard on both models.

The interior wasnt that great either. It was much too drab looking, especially in the pre '01 car. I think the interior of the '93-97 GS actually looked much better, despite being much more dated. It was at least warm, something the outgoing GS never was.

maxhonda99

I agree with you on the interior. The 93-97 interior was definately nicer in overall execution than the 98-current. The center stack on the current GS and the plasticky 3 pod gauge layout hurts the interior. From the beginning, a 3-pod instrument cluster like the current RX's would have been nice-less plastic and chrome rings around the gauges would have been nice.

THe original 16" wheels were kinda blah also. I don't think it really needed 17's as standard considering the 5-series came with 15's as standard, but the 16" design on the 98-00 GS was hideous. The redesigned wheels for 2001 improved the look of the car.

I think the new GS is ultimately, more cohesive in it's styling. It flows well from front to back and a few styling tweaks would make it outstanding.

lexusguy

I'm not sure what was going on with Lexus' interior designers in 1998. That first 3-spoke steering wheel was ghastly. The gauge cluster in the '98-00 GS just plain stunk, as you said, and the only wood was tiny bits of trim flanking the center stack like the old Acura TL, and some strips on the doors. Lexus added some metallic looking rings to the gauge cluster for '01, which was a definite improvement, but it still isnt good enough.

The RX for '98-03 wasnt great either. The controls were very poorly designed, and didnt have the typical Lexus look and quality feel that is in all of the rest of their cars save the IS300. The RX330 is a huge improvement in that area.

legendman

Lexusguy:

As you may recall I have spent a fair amount of time on the future Acura RL board (2005), as have you. I recall your solid support for the total Lexus quality experience.

Having seen the new RL I now have some real world reservations about it. Accordingly I am considering the new 2006 GS, and the M35.

If it's not too much to ask, what do you think the main selling points of the new GS will be as compared to the new RL and the new M from Infiniti?

Any input from you or others will be sincerely appreciated.

boomsama

are you still considering the RL?

ceric

Hi, legendman:
I am in a similar situation now. After test driving the RL, I have given up my pre-order. Now that I have researched more and more into Infiniti M, I found it grow on me quite a bit (especially the black one). You could find a lot of info and photos on Japanese websites of the new M. The only issue I have against the M is their packaging of options.

As for the GS, I find the exterior to be bland and it seems like a reasonable extension of the current GS (for instance, maintaining the profile of the current GS). The 3.0 V6 will be equipped with direct injection much like the new A6 3.1L. Direct injection gives higher torque because it allows higher compression ratio (12.5 in the case of Audi A6). However, I don't think a V6 would ever make me smile. I will be comparing M45 and GS430 eventually.

lexusguy

Unfortunately I really wish I could tell you more than I can. A lot about what the GS is really going to drive like is unknown. You can bet the car will be more driver oriented than the outgoing car, but how much more.. dunno yet. Fortunately, a lot more about the equipment has been released. Here are a few items about the car:

Like the '04 RX, the GS will have adaptive headlights. It retains the 3-pod gauge cluster, but fortunately goes back to standard Lexus electro-luminescent gauges like RX and SC. The car also gets a keyless SmartAccess system like the LS430. Climate controlled front seats and a back up camera like the RX are optional.

New safety equipment comes from the LS, notably knee airbags, and Lexus' "Pre-Collision System" that is similar to Mercedes PreSafe. PCS uses radar and a computer to determine if an accident is unavoidable. If so, it tightens the seatbelts, and preps the brake calipers and BrakeAssist system to get ready.

Current engine specs are that the GS300 will get a new 3.0L V6 with 245hp and 228ft.lbs of torque. The GS430 will carry over the previous V8 and have 300hp and 325ft.lbs of torque. The GS300 will offer an electronic AWD system from RX as an option. A hybrid GS350 GT with 450hp+ are just rumors at this point. The transmition is a new close-ratio six speed automatic, with a rumored SMG to be available later.

The last new items are Lexus' new "VDM" or Vehicle Dynamic Management system, which replaces their previous VSC system. The new one is supposed to be more sport oriented, and while allow for more slip and wheelspin, and an Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) with four settings from comfort to sport.

Of course the car will have the usual Lexus strengths, industry leading build and materials quality, the worlds best navigation system, and the stellar Mark Levinson audio. The interior is also much better than the outgoing car. Im not sure if there are any production pics, but heres some of the GS concept.

jrock65

A similarly optioned (to the RL) 2006 GS300 AWD will probably cost about $50k, about the same as the RL. That seems to be the sweet spot for loaded V6 vehicles in this class (STS, A6, RL, M35, GS300).

A 530i has a $6000 premium and an E320 has a $10,000 premium.

However, the 5 and the E have never faced so much stiff competition before, so it remains to be seen how much longer and to what extent BMW and MB can continue to charge those premiums.