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Lexus GS 300/GS 430

13468960

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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ideally, you want loads of both. A high torque, low hp engine will be good off the line, but will run out of steam once the revs build on the highway (think Ford's 4.2L or Chryslers 3.8L in their minivans) a high hp, low torque engine will be bad off the line, and require hard launches, but will be quick at high revs (Honda S2000). Engines like the Nissan 3.5L VQ that have a good balance of both make the best "work horse" engines, you can floor an automatic G35 coupe, and it will pull hard all the way through the range. It is true that the Nissan lacks the refinement of Honda and Toyota's engines. The 3.5L has a raspy growl, and is rather noisy when the going gets hot. That kind of character is perfect for the 350Z, but may be a bit of a disadvantage in a "premium" car like the M35, at least for those that care more about luxury than performance. Then again, Infiniti will most likely position the M as the "drivers" Japanese midsize luxury car, so its potential buyers may not care.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    I was able to find the following extract in a past Lexus press release:

    "Performance Optimized
    Joining the potent and refined 4.3-liter V8 will be an all-new 245-horsepower V6 engine replacing the current inline six. Both the powerful V6 and V8 engines benefit from an all-new close-ratio 6-speed automatic transmission with a sequential manual-shifting mode. The combination provides faster and substantially smoother acceleration for even better performance and, surprisingly, improved fuel economy. A new Adaptive Variable Suspension allows the driver to fine-tune suspension damping with four settings ranging from normal-mode for everyday driving to a sport-mode for a tighter, more precise feel."

    It is avaliable here:
    http://www.lexus.com/about/press_releases/popups/2004/pr_01_06_b.- html
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    saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Is there anything special about this v6? Is it especially smooth or provide extra juicy torque at low rpms?

    Because spending money to develop a new engine which right off the bat fails to match Nissan's VQ (DOHC 3.5L v6 260 to 280HP) or Honda's 3.2L SOHC v6 270HP seems questionable to me.

    What am I missing here?
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Yes, it does seem questionable to everyone. People are thinking that Lexus may release "true" engine specs one or two months before the first GS300 is delivered. This will make the opposition underestimate the new GS300 engine.

    Currently, the engine has 245HP and 228lb/ft, where i think that it would be a waste of time to develop an all new engine with such low figures. Perhaps they may tweak it a little when we are closer to the release date. Let's hope so anyawy.
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    saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Well it's torquier than the Honda 3.0L v6 in the Accord which gets 212 ft/lb at 5,000 rpm which is quite high.

    Toyota didn't make $10 billion a year by making dumb mistakes so I gotta believe they must have a good reason for this.

    The only thing I can think of is that they're trying to consolidate their 6 cylinder engines and want to make one v6 that will fit transversely in their FWD cars and longitudinally in their RWD cars, sort of what Nissan does with their VQ. Then they can detune it a little for Toyotas and bore it out for more HP for Lexus.

    That is the only thing I can think of.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont really understand the reasoning behind this new 6 either. When Lexus released the last new GS300 with the 220hp straight six, its only real competition was the 528i, E320, and A6 2.8, and the Lexus, spec wise, beat all of them. Thats not the case this year. Theres Infiniti and Acura to worry about, plus the M-B 320 engine is just about to be replaced, and Audi is sporting a new engine as well. I'm sure a replacement for BMW's 3.0L cant be far off either. I dont think Lexus wants to be at the bottom of the pack.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    exactly what im thinking.

    Do you guys think that Lexus has given us fake specs, and in reality has a higher powered V6 and V8 in work to be released to the public closer to the GS release date?
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    several sources have confirmed the existence of an all-new Toyota 3.5L engine, producing about 270 hp....

    ~alpha
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I wouldnt be surprised if Lexus comes out and says "gotcha". If this GS350GT is real.. well 3.5L V6 would kind of make sense wouldnt it.
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    maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I'm with you on this one. They may have learned something from the Nissan Titan's towing capacity bluff.
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Wasnt it actually FORD's towing capacity bluff that came in under the Titan's figure, then when Ford released the F150, it had a superior rating?

    ~alpha
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    So where can i get my hands on some info of the all new 3.5L engine? Perhaps this is the engine.
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    saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    There's got to be an element of believability for a bluff to work. Ford was bluffing in the sense that they were saying, we'll raise the bar 2 inches when they were actually going to raise it 5 inches. Lexus's bluff is like saying, we plan to conquer this segment by lowering the bar by a foot!

    We'll just have to wait and see about this v6. I'd like to believe it's a bluff, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a dumb mistake on Lexus's part either.

    They have a history of making underwhelming engines and seeing if the public goes for it.

    Also, if they're really planning to put in a 3.5L v6, shouldn't it be called the GS 350 instead of GS 300?
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    True, but theres still just under a year until the GS will actually be on the roads. Theres a lot of time for Lexus to change things.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Im not sure if they really have a history of underwhelming engines. Lexus let the old 3.0L V6 get a little too old, but they fixed that with the ES\RX330. However, it would be REALLY odd for their "performance" 6 to be smaller than the standard 3.3L. If Honda can take their 3.2L from 225 > 260 > 270hp without increasing displacement at all, then Im sure that toyota would at least be capable of squeezing an extra 20 out of the 3.3L for a GS330 application to get by. The only other theory I have as that there will be THREE GS offerings this time, as with the 5 series, with the 245hp GS300 being entry level. Perhaps the 3.0 and 3.5L engines will exist simultaniously? You are correct that tricking the public with underwhelming specs is a little odd, but perhaps Lexus plans to drop a GS350 surprise.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    True, and that the 3.5L engine will be the same as the one to be used in the GS350GT

    I googled around and found this:

    http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=73881

    It shows that a Lexus dealer said that the engine was going to be a new 3.5L V6 tweaked from the current 3.3L V6

    The information, however, is from over a year ago.
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    6sn7s6sn7s Member Posts: 9
    This is just pure speculation of course but...

    Maybe the new GS300 will come with a Hybrid option. A 4wd version with an electric motor powering the front wheels on a rwd platform sound good??? I have serveral reasons for this speculation.

    1. Toyota made it clear they want Hybrids, as options, across thier entire line up... by extension this includes lexus. So why wait till the next redesign for a Hybrid integration..

    2. The GS300 is suppose to be the version with 4wd... so an electirc motor would make sense

    3. Perhaps the reason why the new 3.0 V6 with 245hp has relatively low HP figures is because it was/is designed to be the new corporate engine that can be used as a Hybrid Synergy system... a low emission engine that can start/stop with, 245hp is more than enough if supplemented with a Electic motor of say 40hp as with the RX400h... or more!!!

    Will the new GS have a CVT or 6speed??? That may be a clue!

    If history is anything to go by, Lexus does not drop the ball when comes to redesigns.... eh mechanically, especially at such a critical stage in it Lexus history. Didn't they say, they wanted become more sports driven,...
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    6sn7s6sn7s Member Posts: 9
    I forgot to add...

    In the Lexus press release, it stated that the 4wd version will be for the GS300...

    This bit of info is in keeping with the speculation that the new 3.0 V6 is for the Hybrid use, the GS4XX is non-Hybrid, hence no electric font motors, no 4wd...

    Because having a 4wd car power with only 245hp seems a bit low even for Lexus! Hope they don't disappoint!

    To me at least... this theory makes to most sense...
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Those are some pretty good theories, let's hope they are made true.

    The GS300 will come with a 6 speed auto, but the way you said that the electric powers front, petrol powers back does make good sense.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That is how the RX400h works. If the GS300 uses the same electronic AWD system as the RX (which it most likely does) then setting it up the same way would probably easy enough for them to do.
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    6sn7s6sn7s Member Posts: 9
    Hmm... the lack of CVT may indicate it does not use the Hybrid Synergy system since the CVT is the very heart of that powerplant... but who knows, maybe a 6speed is adaptable to the Hybrid Synergy.

    Lexus may realize that buyers of sports Sedan - especially, since they want to get more passionate - would not be happy with a CVT power splitter device. I mean, a CVT is okay for a Prius and RX400h, but a sports sedan is whole different story.

    In any case, Toyota claims they want Hybrid options for the entire line by 2010, and since the new GS platform should last 5yrs, the up coming platform should have a Hybrid option in its design.

    Perphaps the car may use an asssist type Hybrid system like the Civic and Insight.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What about Audi's CVTs? Those are sport sedans.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Has this ever happened? As in a sudden change of engine specifications during the final few months before a car is released?

    It seems very stupid to build an all new V6, with more power than the 3.3L V6, but with less torque. I mean, the GS is suppose to be a sports sedan, why would the ES have more torque?
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    6sn7s6sn7s Member Posts: 9
    >What about Audi's CVTs? Those are sport sedans

    True... but the CVT used in the Hybrid Synergy powerplant is nothing like the CVT used in Audis or any other brand for that matter.

    The only thing the CVT is the HSD engine has in common with other CVTs are the letters C, V, and T... oh yeah and they're probably made of metal too :P

    There is plenty of info on the HSD CVT out there... it really is a remarkable device.... too bad it removes quite a bit of control from the driver.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    The GS, being a sports sedan and all, will probably try to give the driver as much control as it can, which is what driving enthusiasts may want. So theres probably very little chance that they would put CVT in the GS.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've actually heard rumors of the GS getting a new SMG.
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    maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I'm talking about Nissan's bluff, originally before the Titan's launch Nissan said it would have a towing capacity of 7,500 or 8,000lbs. I believe, but as soon at official release time they said it will be 9,500lbs.
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    saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Intersting theories, but if it's a hybrid, wouldn't it be called the GS 300h as it seems Lexus is using the "h" at the end to designate a hybrid model.

    Also, don't know if this has been mentioned before, but is the Lexus v6 245HP going to be running on regular or premium gas? I hope it's regular because a high compression 245HP v6 is pretty weak.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    They might just release news of a hybrid instead of the 300 by itself later on in the year. I hope so anyway. The lack of power and torque just wont cut it these days.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It might not be called the 300h. Lexus may use a "GT" badge to signify hybrid performance cars.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Hopefully the GS300 will be atleast a GS300 + hybrid, or a GS350. The GS300 specs are more and more dissapointing everytime i look at them.

    By the way, Lexusguy, how does the current GS300 go? Or havent you driven one yet. Thanks.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    By current GS300 you mean the outgoing car yes? I've driven one. It gets the job done, but its not exactly quick. Of course there are tons of readily available go-fast parts for the current GS as its basically powered by a Supra engine, but you might as well get a GS430 if you want fast.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Well the GS430 is offered down here, so i have no choice :(

    The GS300 down here has no option list, everything is standard. If the GS430 appeared down here, do you think that the GS300 would become a bit cheaper inorder to keep a difference between the 300 and the 430?
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its possible, I dont know. Lexus doesnt really operate with that kind of Acura mindset here, the GS300 here comes with the basics, and then there are a bunch of option packages. If you cant get the 430 and want a demon fast GS300, you could get a new intake, exhaust and a turbo for the NA Supra\IS\GS\SC for about $5500 US. That would give you rougly 350hp.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Even if Lexus doesnt consider Acura as a direct competitor, the new A6 3.2L FSI engine has more power and torque, and BMW/MB are coming out with more powerful mainstream V6s in due time as well. I just don't know what Lexus is going at. Might they have so much engineering advancements that you don't need so much power/torque in the car to go fast?
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I really have no idea. Perhaps this 3.0L is just a short term stopgap until Lexus comes out with a more powerful V8. If you recall Audi's problem with the 2.7T\4.2 engine on the outgoing car, the V8 produced 50 more hp and cost $10,000 more, but performance was identical to the 2.7T because of the extra weight. Obviously Lexus doesnt want to have the GS430 be redundant, so they may be keeping the GS300s power down on purpose.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Perhaps. When the 430 gets a power upgrade, Lexus will be able to increase the power on that V6. It should be able to take more power without any large modifications/additions if so much was spent on it.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I really dont know. All of Lexus' V8 powered cars have shared the same engine, so if the LS gets a 5.0L, then the GS would be come GS500 as well, which would open the door for a stronger six.
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    dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    Toyota Crown in Japan can be had with a 3L that produces 252hp/232lbft. Could this be the engine in the 05 GS?
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its certainly possible. Nobody knows but Toyota at this point.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    The crown royal? or crown athlete?

    Do you mean the 3GR-FSE?
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    dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    I think it's the crown royal.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    i've looked around the toyota.jp site, and the royal and athlete have the same engines...so that just answers my own questions. Athlete is like a sports version and royal is like the cushy rider version i guess. Hopefully the GS300 will at least have this 188kw V6, then it can be on par with the Audi A6 3.2FSI V6 engine, which is good of course. I also noted that the current GS300 is sold in some places without the 430, but instead has the twin turbo on the sixer, pumping out about 206kW and its mated to a 4speed auto, and not a 5speed unlike the non-turbo one. Why would this be the case? (use 4 speed, and a turbo?)
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Good question. With the 92-00 SC\Toyota Soarer, the rest of the world's Soarer 3.0 had a turbo charger. The US market didnt, but we got the 4.0L V8 instead, so they've done that before. As to why..
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    For those interested, theres an interesting but brief article on future Lexus performance vehicles in the July issue of Car and Driver. Its in the "UpFront" section on page 33, and discusses the next gen LS500GT, the GS350GT, and the IS350.

    ~alpha
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    saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I saw that blurb but those are all hybrids using a second electric motor at takeoff to provide extra HP and torque.

    So it looks like Lexus is planning to keep the power under the hood low, and if you want the extra juice, you have to spring for the hybrid.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Perhaps the 430 is impractable in japan, and hence the twin turbo. Maybe for the US, V8's are made to compete with others.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    could be. VERY few JDM cars have more than a 6 under the hood.
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    what does JDM mean?
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    boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Just wondering...how does the current Audi A6 FWD 3.0L compare to the current Lexus GS300? In terms of driving, comfort, performance, quality, etc.

    Another question...do you think the next GS will be using the Toyota Crown Athlete platform? And when was the Toyota Crown Athlete released? Thanks.
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