Lexus GS 300/GS 430

lexusguy

As you guys probably know my wife has an RX, we like it for the space and AWD. She likes the high seat (probably because she's a 5'5" shorty) but she is careful, and she definitely is not a left lane hogger. And it gets decent enough gas mileage that we can sleep at night.

boomsama

how about just getting a station wagon?, e.g. 530i Touring.

saugatak

That 5 series station wagon costs more and has less space than most SUVs.

Unfortunately, station wagons now are dead. They've been replaced by the SUV. Only way wagons are coming back is if they change around the gas guzzler taxes.

lexusguy

Last time I checked, Lexus doesnt make one. (I dont count the IS 5-door) Neither does Acura, or Infiniti. Only the Germans do, because people still buy wagons in Europe. The name "station wagon" is complete taboo here, which is why companies have come up with BS names like "sports tourer".

saugatak

My first car was a 9 year old total POS 1979 Buick Century station wagon. Think it had like 125,000 miles or so on it and back in those days, it was a lot. Handled like a pregnant cow elephant, but I was able to load up all my car-less friends so they didn't care.

Wasn't much help with the ladies. I'd say, "C'mon, do you prefer my car or your two legs?" but that line didn't get me too far.

I think my experience was fairly common and the negative stereotype associated with station wagons is going to prevent them from making a comeback in the U.S. anytime soon.

lexusguy

That depends on if a company tries to copy the Pacifica.

saugatak

I actually like the looks of the Pacifica, but everyone I know who has it hates it. They all think it's WAY underpowered.

I like the looks of the FX too and was tempted to get it. However, the extra size and 3rd row seat in the MDX offered too much utility.

Frankly, IMO best bang for the buck/utility is probably a minivan, especially those new ones where they show the (reminds me of me) struggling to fold up one of those baby strollers while the mom takes advantage of all those compartments. My only complaint with those minivans is that, except for the Honda Odyssey, the engines in all of 'em kinda suck.

lexusguy

Not anymore. All the domestic minivans engine's stink, because they're trying to compete with 20 year old pushrods. Toyota's 3.3L and Nissans 3.5L offer just as much power as Honda though. The new Sienna is the best minivan on the market, but Im sure Honda plans an upset with the Odyssey redesign. Chrysler spent millions and millions on their new T&C, and it doesnt even come close.

I like the styling of the FX a lot as well. It definitely has some French Renault influence, but in a good way. It looks different from every other Japanese SUV.

saugatak

Oh yeah, I should have figured the 3.5L VQ would end up in the minivan as well. So yes, the Quest has a nice engine.

Toyota's 3.3L v6 is probably OK, but I always felt that Toyota was more into NVH than extracting more power and efficiency out of its engines. I haven't driven a Sienna, but minivans are big and heavy and I'd guess the Sienna engine, while it may be adequate, would be underpowered compared to the VQ or Honda's 3.5L.

lexusguy

Wrong Toyota's 3.3L matches them on torque, and gives up only 10hp to Nissan and Honda. According to Edmunds, the Sienna out runs the Quest, and loses to Honda by .3 seconds. Close enough to be considered equal.

saugatak

If those #s are correct (and since I know how well you know Toyota cars, I'm assuming they probably are), then you are right and the Sienna is as good, powerwise, as Ody and Quest.

I guess I need to brush up on Minivans LOL.

lexusguy

All three are impressive (at least powerwise, Nissan massively dropped the ball on the inside of the Quest). A few years ago it would be comical to think of a full size people hauler running 8 second 0-60s. The Sienna is doubly impressive when it comes to interior materials. The AWD fully optioned XLE can approach 40 large, but as more than one magazine has said "If Lexus made a minivan, this would be it".

saugatak

Yeah the Toyota premium. I'm sure it's a beautiful minivan, but no way I'll ever pay $40k for a minivan (at least until inflation pushes prices to that level).

BTW, I checked your numbers and they were right. I was wondering how Toyota was able to outdo the specific output of Honda and Nisssan, which is something that generally Toyota doesn't do.

The only thing I can think of is this: "Is the Sienna engine high compression using premium fuel?"

Because I can't see any other way to explain how the 3.3L engine used in the Camry and the RX330 is getting more HP and torque.

If that's the case, it's a bit of an unfair comparo to the Ody and Quest since I believe both engines run on regular.

alpha01

Can you clarify what you mean?

"BTW, I checked your numbers and they were right. I was wondering how Toyota was able to outdo the specific output of Honda and Nisssan, which is something that generally Toyota doesn't do.

The only thing I can think of is this: "Is the Sienna engine high compression using premium fuel?"

Because I can't see any other way to explain how the 3.3L engine used in the Camry and the RX330 is getting more HP and torque."

The specific output for the Sienna (and RX330) version of the Toyota 3.3L is 230, which is 10 less than the Ody version of the Honda 3.5L, and the Quest version of the Nissan VQ. All 3 vehicles produce 242 foot pounds, though the Sienna's peak is slight more usable than the others, occuring at 3600 RPM.

Now, Id agree with you that the Sienna's ratings are using Premium fuel, and you'll see a slight (perhaps not even noticeable) drop in performance on regular, which the engine will run perfectly fine on, from my understanding. OTOH, the Ody's figures are on regular, and you'll achieve a few added hp and twist on premium. Basically, its two different approaches to rating engines that both perform best on higher octane fuel. Im not certain about the Quest.

However, compared to other iterations of the 3.3L (read: Camry, Solara, ES330), the RX330 and Sienna, from my understanding, breathe a bit more openly, which would account for the slight hp difference (5).

Anyway, getting back to the GS- any new info?

~alpha

saugatak

By specific output, I mean HP/L of displacement and torque/L of displacement. Given that the Sienna's engine displaces 3.3L (vs 3.5L of the Odyssey and Quest), the fact that the Sienna gets equal torque and near the same HP means it has better specific output.

My understanding of regular gas engines in general is that even if you put in premium fuel, it won't lead to a performance boost b/c of the way the engine's computers are calibrated.

OTOH, a premium fuel engine will suffer a performance degradation when put on regular fuel.

As for the new GS, I am interested in what it's going to offer, especially the new v6. 245HP out of a 3.0L engine is pretty good, and if it runs on regular fuel, that's even better.

boomsama

I think it would run on regular fuel. If they could just tweak it a bit more, maybe to 190kw (255hp)it would be nice, just for numbers sake. Also, Lexus maybe be able to increase efficiency so that the car may be able to accelerate faster, to times that are acceptable for cars of its class, without the need of anymore power.

Just on another note, is there any different between horsepower (hp) and brakehorsepower(bhp)?

lexusguy

I seriously doubt that the new GS will run on 87 regular. As far as I know, not a single Lexus currently recommends regular (though my dealer says the 3.0L V6 does fine on 89). They recommend at least 91 for the old Inline though. Most luxury cars and performance cars rate their power assuming you are using premium.

Alpha, according to most experts, engines spec.ed for 87 get zero benefit from expensive gas.

HP and BHP mean the same thing. There IS however a difference between the amount of horsepower "at the flywheel" and the amount that is actually hitting the pavement.

boomsama

Regular here in Australia is 91 sorry.

alpha01

"Alpha, according to most experts, engines spec.ed for 87 get zero benefit from expensive gas."

Yes, I know this. I believe there was a Car and Driver article on the issue around the Fall 2001 timeframe. My point was that Honda makes the assertion that its 3.0L in the Accord, and 3.5L in the Ody... will achieve better performance and economy on higher octane.

saugatak- Thanks for the clarification. I understand exactly what youre saying.

~alpha

boomsama

Does anyone know how the GS' AWD system works?

lexusguy

Lexus has said nothing about it, so my guess is that its the same electronic system that the RX330 has.

boomsama

so how does the RX system work?

lexusguy

Its a fully automatic system that works with Lexus' VSC, and moves torque to the front or rear wheels based on available traction. More than that, dont know. Theres not a lot of information published on it.

boomsama

If that would be put into the GS, it would work with the VDM yeah?

boomsama

have there been any press releases lately about the GS?

lexusguy

You can read all of Lexus' latest press at their website. The last few were just some race wins.

boomsama

Do we know if the Lexus is going to have a foot parking brake, or one of those electro mechanical hand brakes like the A6? Is it standard for all cars of its class to have foot parking brakes these days?

hjcanter

As for octane ratings for the lexus engines, both the GX and LX take regular gas (87). These are the only engines that do not take regular fuel. It really helps at the gas pump!

boomsama

I had some spare time, so I thought I might compare the A6 and the GS together. Couldn't find any good enough RL photo sorry. Anyway, just to look at....

.

I think the GS looks better out of the two. It looks more sporty.

merc1

Those are not the best pics for either of those, but I see nothing good looking about either. It pains me to have to say that about an Audi product. I keep seeing the Saturn LS when looking at the new A6. The GS well it looks worse than the previous car, imo. If you want swoopy and good looking in a four-door, this might be the ticket:



I think the CLS looks better than either.

M

boomsama

you're right that theyre not the best photos, but they were the only side profile images i could find.

lexusguy

The CLS doesnt do it for me, and at the moment theres no indication that its goint to permanently be in M-B's line up. Also, wont it cost at least $20K more than the Audi and Lexus. The GS430 also looks much better in person than it does in pictures. The Audi A6 looks like this:

merc1

Oh I wasn't comparing it on the whole with the Audi and Lexus, just in styling. It will however be a regular member of the lineup.

Sorry, but I have to disagree about the Lexus GS. I've seen it in person (Detroit) and it looks worse than the previous GS, imo. The Audi doesn't quite look that bad as that pic does...lol!

M

boomsama

hehe, nice image lexusguy

gteach26

It sure does liven things up. To my untrained eye, in those profile pics above, the A6 and GS look nearly identical. Also, this may not make sense to most of you, but that new Mercedes doesn't do it for me. To me, the car looks like a large right triangle laying on its side... big on the back and swooping real low on the front.

I'm finding that no car seems to hit a "home run" for my personal tastes in the looks department. There is either too much "bubble", or too much "swoop", or too big of a front grill, etc. The car that closest resembles my "ideal" looking car is the '04 LS430. I guess I'm looking for a paradox... conservative yet sporty looking, low key yet exciting.

From the pics I've seen the 06 GS has a nice front, great interior, but the butt looks like it needs to go to the gym to firm up a bit.

lexusguy

Well I thought the GS looked better at the NYAS than it does in the shots, but to be quite honest, I'm finding myself more attracted to the M45 at this point. I think it is overall more streamlined in its appearance, and I also think that I like the front end of the M45 better than the GS. I think an M45 in jet black would look GREAT. I know there are several that wont agree, but I like what Infiniti has done with the inside as well. Its daring but functional, and I think with the wood instead of the aluminum trim, it could look very classy as well. The GS doesnt look bad, but its still very understated and conservative in its design. I was hoping for a bit more flash like the '02 ES redesign, but apparently that isnt the case. Here's a side profile of the M for comparison.

merc1

I too think the M35/45 is the best looking out of the three new Japanese newcomers. The interior needs to be toned down a little, imo.

M

lexusguy

I like how it looks with the wood trim, unfortunately the only place you can actually SEE it like that atm is on their "build your M" bit with a tiny picture that doesnt show much.

boomsama

Well the M isnt available down here, so my best bet will probably be with the GS.

lexusguy

Yeah the GS would be my other pick of the segment. I really need to drive both cars.

lenscap

I really love the new GS. In person the GS is very sleek and low to the ground, unlike the M which to me looks too tall. Also, I can't get past the M's rear quarter window - it reminds me of a Chevy Impala. I'm simply not a big Infiniti fan.

I believe I have talked my mother into trading in her 1999 GS on the new one when it comes out.

lexusguy

Make sure you post impressions as soon as she makes the purchase

cove148

One thing I hate is door dings. This car appears to afford no protection at all. Tell me I am missing something?

lenscap

The style over the past several years, especially with Lexus, has been cleaner flanks and sometimes no body side moldings.

However, if you are careful where you park it should not be a problem. Besides, many cars that have side moldings get hit by SUVs that have higher doors, so the molding becomes useless.

merc1

Yeah I notice a lot of cars are going that route in the name of style. Even Mercedes, which swore they'd never produce a car without some type of door guard has done that samething with the CLS, exposed flanks.

M

lexusguy

Sometimes dings are just unavoidable. Moldings dont usually help much anyway.

saugatak

Sometimes dings are just unavoidable. Moldings dont usually help much anyway.

That's what I say when someone else's doors get dinged.

"*!@#@!*^&" is what I say when MY doors get dinged.

lexusguy

Personally, I have a lot more trouble with scratches than dings. I like black cars, and a string of explatives is what I say when I see a big white line on my door.

boomsama

There's just one thing I don't really understand. What makes Audi's Quattro so "good"? Isn't it just like any other AWD system? Wouldn't the GS AWD possess the same AWD capabilities as an A6 Quattro?

markcincinnati

Although the following argument is weakening -- like soil erosion -- there, today, is still some truth to the argument that Audi (and others to be certain) makes.

Audi has been committed to AWD across virtually all of its cars for a long time. There is a [somewhat self-serving] book called 20 years of quattro (or something close to that).

The point is, and it is ephemeral, "experience" -- broad and deep experience. Racing experience, passenger car experience and an AWD "core value" that, until -- wait a moment -- NOW, has been one of Audi's differentiators. When, as is predicted, all high-performance and luxury performance cars offer AWD or are AWD, Audi will lose some of its differentiation. Dr. Piech, around the time when a VW product called "The Thing" was introduced, predicted that "to be considered a high performance autombile, AWD will become the defacto standard" [sic].

He was, for years, thought to be a little bit peculiar, shall we say, now -- if he is remembered for his vision -- he will (or should be) remembered as a visionary automotive engineer.

So, while the GS AWD may indeed be "AWD" and probably will be a fine representation of the technology -- Audi, for probably another 15 minutes [of fame] still has some experience that Lexus/Toyota lacks.

For fans of the Audi brand, like me, I do recognize that Audi's "dominance" and differentiation due to quattro are nearing the part of the book (or song) called epilog.

Audi will have to "up the ante" once "all restaurants are Taco Bell" (Demolition Man).