I'd like to do the bank thing or go through USAA and buy out and just pay the loan back.
But the problem is that I don't think the dealer will give us that break on their mark up.
However.. I'm thinking I'll just go to another dealer either out of state or up north in CA. My Mom is onboard with the idea of going to a MSRP dealer with no wait and ordering our own which will be cheaper or basically of the same price and exactly how I want it.
Seriously.. With the prices the dealer is quoting us now, is it possible to have them any worse? I don't think so. So we are thinking of just ordering our own from a MSRP dealer and making the trip out there. I'm going to call the Pleasanton, CA and OK City and a few Texas dealerships to see which are MSRP and if their ordering list is open.
As much as I like the dealer we have at Bob Smith.. She just isn't cutting us any slack when it comes to the payments. The mark up is there causing the car to be 26k... I can go get another car for 30k and get lower payments. So we are really considering an out of area dealership.
Oh um.. If you understand how leasing works and how buying it out in the end works, could you explain, please? I thought you put money down and pay monthly and then can buy it out at the end of the least for whatever amount is left to pay but from what I learned at Toyota it doesn't work that way... How does it work?
At an MSRP of around $25K, you could just buy the car.. With only the sales tax upfront, your payments would be a little less than $500 over 60 months... Since you want to own the car, anyway... Just go ahead and buy it..
2) The interest rate on the lease is unsupported by the manufacturer
3) Your dealer is marking up the money factor on the lease to add even more profit on the deal.
My take... Leasing is just an alternative method of financing... If you can't afford the 60 month payments, you probably should be getting a less expensive car..
Not that I recommend this, but if you want to own the car at a lease-like payment, look into 84 month financing. BMWFS won't likely do this, but your dealer should have other banks that will.
Sorry, but I don't see any way you're going to get an MCS at around $300 a month, whether buying or leasing. I'm placing my order to buy a decently optioned MCS manual this coming weekend and I'll probably end up at $340/month, and that's with over 1/3 down payment of the out-the-door price (I've been saving for a while). I am financing through my credit union and the rates are excellent compared to rates you'd get through a dealer. Definitely check banks for their rates. If you're looking to buy it out, some banks offer 72 month loans at 5.5 to 7.5%. It may be better to buy it from the get-go. A $25,100 (order it to avoid markup, don't buy it off the lot) MCS auto with 3K down and an assumed 5% tax, at a rate of 7.5% interest for 72 months gives you $404/month. So for $20 more per month than the lease number you've been quoted, you could be buying it outright. Sounds like the better deal to me. If you MUST keep the payments closer to $300/month, look at the Cooper instead. Or learn to drive stick and give up some amenities.
The overall cost of the Mini here is 26,600 with the mark up. The last quote we got for 10k miles, 3k down, 4 years... 412 with tax.
I just got finished talking with OK City Mini and for the same price they quoted me 390 a month with tax, 12k miles though instead of 10.
Now the pros and cons to buying the Mini here are:
Pros: Get the car now, no hassle of bringing the car into state and will be able to return the car to the dealer if it needs to be in shop for a few days and get a loaner.
Cons: $22 more, I didn't get to create it myself online, 1.5k goes towards mark up instead of additional features such as DSC and Xenon headlights or seat warmers.
But the 1.5k extra.. Wouldn't it cost just about the same brining the car into state and having to register it here and all? I know when my mom brought her Jetta here from NM she almost had to pay about 1k. And that extra $500... Flying to OKC and driving home.
I'm just wondering... Does anyone buy a Mini offlot? It feels sort of impersonal getting a Mini that someone else designed other than myself and not seeing him be developed. I missed out on all those years of my Mini.
It sounds to me like you're intent on leasing your MCS, gopguy. If you have the patience to wait, I suggest you order one for purchase, not for lease, from out of state. Take the time online to personalize it. There are a few dealerships that advertise the fact that they ship to your door for only $500. And the wait outside of CA is only 2 to 3 months. And, you know, you are not required to go to the same dealer you bought your MINI from to have it serviced. If that were the case, too many people would be raising cain about it and that policy would have been dropped already.
Leasing for over $400 a month? A MINI? You might as well buy it. Save yourself 10's of thousands over buying it at the end of a lease (these cars have virtually no depreciation, you will pay A LOT to buy it out).
I hate to sow seeds of doubt over your decision to lease, but at the numbers you're quoting, it really is in your best interest to buy it at the beginning. Better to pay a little more each month for 5 to 6 years, owning it after it's said and done, than paying 22K through 4 years, then owing another 17 to 20K (counting for depreciation) to buy it out after a lease period (which means taking out a loan for 5 more years, do you really want to pay for your car for 9 to 10 years?).
Look, I'm just trying to save you money, but all of the above is just my opinion. Heed it or ignore it completely.
That is how I at first thought buying out in the end works after hearing about it from Toyota and you confirm it... It is a rip off.
I think we might go ahead and try to buy out from the start through USAA. We have a check they sent us in the mail for a car loan with 4.84% APR and the payments aren't really that bad if we put 6k down and finance the rest for 60 months. I really wish we could use the Mini Select financing program!
As for ordering... Do you think that is nessecary? Sure the Mini will be exactly how I want it but I'm just as happy with the one I'll be getting from Bob Smith, the only difference is that instead of that 15 hundred mark up I could get DSC and nicer headlights or save the money but at the cost of waiting though with waiting I could watch it be made and it'll be more personal. Am I going to be the only Mini lover to not have had ordered their Mini? =/
But with the service thing... I know any Mini service department will work on my Mini but they won't give me a loaner. If my Mini is going to be in service for a week they won't give me a loaner unless I bought the car from them, which is the advantage of getting the Mini at Bob Smith.
In this pamphlet I got from USAA it says they will go and negotiate the asking price for the car I want... Is that something I should ask of them? The dealer already took off half of their mark up for us, would they be able to do anything more?
Also, that half off mark up is with them thinking we are going to lease. Would they maybe give us the full mark up if we said we are going to buy the car out?
The only extra cost to buying out of state is your transportation there and the gas back... Whatever you have to pay (taxes, inspection, etc.) when you get back, is what you would have to pay anyway.. unless CA has something extra...
I'd much rather have $1500 or even $800 in options, rather than put $1500 extra in the dealer's pocket.
Buying after leasing isn't a "rip-off", but if that is your intention from the beginning, it will be cheaper to buy it from the start.
The "rip-off" comes from the dealers playing with the lease numbers.. Get your own 60 or 72 month financing lined up beforehand, and the dealer may even get you a better deal on the financing, when he learns what he is competing against.
The dealer that is marking the car up $1500 over MSRP? They won't drop the price because you bring in a 3rd party or finance instead of lease.. Neither of those things helps them in any way... It is all about the money..
Get your financing in-line.. pre-approved.. Go back in and tell them you will buy today at MSRP... You might be surprised.. If not, go out of town..
kyddx... Your giving sound advice and hopefully gopguy will heed it, but it is his decision. I would not want to pay twice for a car because of a raw lease deal lining the salesmans pocket. I dare use that word some on this board hate to hear GREED !
Gopguyca, IMO order what you want and buy it, since your not impatient a 6-8 week wait for it is not as long as you think, you won't regret the decision nor be putting all that extra money into a salesmans pocket. I bought my Cooper outright and handled the financing thru a home equity loan since the interest is deductable on my taxes unlike a car loan/dealer financing. and being from upstate N.Y I'll trade you one George Pataki for Arnold anyday LOL
The dealer markup is 3k but she was able to get us 1.5k thinking we are leasing.. If we were to say we are going to buy the car out instead of lease, wouldn't they maybe give us the full mark up? Doesn't the dealer make more money through leasing rather than selling flat out?
We could afford to finance through USAA putting 6k or so down and making the term for 60 months or so but I'm scared they might give us the full mark up with us not leasing from them. Unless the dealer prefers a buy out, I don't know.
But with 6k down we could get better lease payments but I think it's crazy to put that much down on a leased car as that money is just being thrown out the window really. Or am I wrong? Because that down payment doesn't go to buying the car out in the end, does it?
Going out of town is still an option and the wait doesn't really bother me but I really just want to get my car now, ya know? This is going to be my first car and I'm happy with the one they are expecting. I just regret missing out on seeing the car be made and the fact that 1.5k is going to a dealer instead of my car, but really... It's like cutting in line or beating the rush that MSRP dealers in CA or avoiding the hassle of going out of state to pick it up. And for me, driving the car home from OK or TX will probably be as much as their mark up by the time I stop for gas, food and lodging.. I like to eat during road trips! Also my Mom would have to come because she is a co-signer, so for the two of us to fly out and all it'll be about the same price.
Also, we plan on doing some driving around this summer, don't want to get burnt out already, lol.
I just hate that mark up really. I can do without making my own in exchange for the getting it now seeing how the car they are expecting I like and would probably make anyway, but I hate that mark up.
Gopguy, All your posts make it sound like you're conflicted, which is even more of an indicator that you shouldn't make any quick decisions. Here on the east coast, the wait is 2 months. Is the whole west coast subject to the 6 to 9-month wait? If not, try Nevada, Oregon, Arizona, etc. Besides, when it comes time to pick it up, Greyhound bus really isn't that expensive . Also, if you buy out-of-state, and are worried about not having a free loaner car from the local dealer, think about the following... The average loaner car is about $25 per day from your average rental agency. Let's say your MCS is at the local dealer three times a year for whatever reason (let's hope not, considering the oil change is every 10K miles), and you have the loaner car overnight until you get your MCS back the next day. It's cheaper for you to pay $150 a year in loaner car fees than it would be to pay an extra $1500 markup to get the car now. It would take ten years of three overnight visits per year to equal the CA dealer markup. Also, chances are better a loaner would be available from a third party, considering the small number of MINI dealers and, consequently, the high number of vehicles being serviced per dealer. Is this making fiscal sense to you? Another, more patience-testing option is to order within California, save yourself the mark-up, wait 6-7 months, and in that time, have accumulated enough savings for a 8 or 9K down payment. That'll get you closer to your $300/month target. Honestly, if you can afford a 6K down payment right now (most people can't), AND you recognize the fact that all that money is considered gone if you lease, then I can't see how you would justify leasing. Just BUY the d@mn car. Well, I can't think of much more to say that would convince you to buy up-front. It sounds like you want your Cooper S NOW, and you're willing to go the exorbitantly more expensive "lease-to-buy" route. I'm rooting for you whichever path you take (because it's a MINI), but if a line is drawn in the sand, I step over to the BUY side. Good luck.
...what everyone is saying. But I do not have a car, period. Going out of state isn't bad especially looking at it from this new perspective you offered regarding the costs of getting a loaner car on my own from Enterprise.. From that perspective, you're right, the loaner car at the dealer at times of service isn't much of a reason to justify the mark up. Especially considering the fact that I surely hope my Mini only needs service for oil changes, lol.
But I do need a car now, and not just me but my family. It's going to be my first car and it really isnt' mine exactly but more like the families. We have a huge SUV which just guzzles down gas and we are having to go over the hill every day it seems, the SUV is costing us too much in gas. Also we need another car. My brother is about to start driving and we don't have enough cars for us to get around as I have a job and my brother is about to have a job as well. We need the other car.
If it was just me getting a new car or wanting a secondary car... Sure, we can wait. But the fact is we need another car and I need a car period. Fortunatly for me my Mom is going to help out some because we do need another car in the family and something more cost effiecient compared to our SUV.
Personally.. I would much rather take that 1.5k and get additional options such as DSC and the better headlights with the chance of an adventure -- Going to pick up my Mini and driving it home. But my Mom isn't overly crazy about that as she sees it more as a hassle rather than an adventure, though she doesn't mind it at all if we got it in OKC, which is possible as their wait is onyl 3 months, but the fact still remains that we do need another car.
We also went over the possibility of financing if we put down 6k for a 60 month term through USAA... I forget how much the payments are but they are around the same price if we lease with a 3k down payment. But we came to the conclusion that we really can't afford to put down that much. So we are just going to lease with a 3k down payment.
I know it's a rip off whether we buy out in the end or not but it's really the most easiest option for us at the moment. I thank you for your input though and adding that new perspective, I never looked at it from that angle.
I reviewed your post about a 4.84% check for a car loan. Is that limited to a 60 month term? If not, you could put down 3K, finance for 72 months, and end up paying almost exactly the same per month as you would pay for a 60 month term w/ 6K down payment. Run the calculations. Try any online loan calculator. Definitely an incentive to buy in my book.
Maybe you should consider another car other than the MINI, to meet your family's immediate needs. You'll have plenty of time and opportunities later on to get the car of your choice. Nice cars are like buses. If you pass up on one model, there'll be another one just around the corner.
I beg to differ that there is no depreciation on this car. (or, at least there will be, perhaps severely, in the future.) Have you checked gas prices lately? The MINI certainly is not in the same league with a hybrid car in terms of gas mileage. If the silly carmakers would get off their duffs and start designing and putting into place the technology we have to do over 60 mpg, the MINI will be worth about $50 in the future. Sorry, but we are soon to hit Peak Oil, if we haven't already, and gas prices will continue to rise, oil futures notwithstanding. That will put most gasoline-powered cars in the same league as a Hummer.
If the automakers don't crank out more hybrids soon, the best we will see is more small cars, gasoline-powered, along the same lines as the Mini - euro-inspired, compact, better gas mileage. That in itself will give the Mini competition. So I don't see this car as having any lasting value in the future. But I didn't buy mine to resell at some later date. I'll probably keep mine until gas is too expensive. I already ride a bicycle almost everywhere anyway. I have considered selling my car and getting a hybrid but have ruled that out for the immediate future.
The Mini has great value now but look at some of our dealers here in CA... Mark ups and huge waits. Around the rest of the country there aren't many dealers. Of course they are worth money now.
But at the same time, there is speculation of Mini changing the Cooper too much with the 07 models. Sure, I can always get a Mini at a later time, but if the speculations are true -- Such as the Mini getting bigger -- I won't be able to. From some of the photos of how the new Mini's interior may look, also something to be worried about. Very ugly and unappealing. Doesn't look as friendly as the Mini does now. And with the size.. One of the main attractions to the Mini is it's small size.
In that regard, the current Minis could very well turn out to be classics. Also the dealer at my Mini place said that BMW isn't going to make any more factories to manufacture them, meaning the overall number of them world-wide will remain limited -- Not sure on how true that is coming from a dealer but eh!
The Mini's value can go either way as there are several factors to look into but I really think it's going to lose the value. Right now they are extremely trendy.. Give them a few more years to let that wear off. Also, there is no competition. There is no other small car in the N American market to compete against the Mini. Those who want a small car have no other place to look other than the Mini. But if they do change alot in the 07 models then our Minis now will more than likely hold some value.
As for future cars.. In 2010 they are supposed to be releasing hydro-powered cars. And hybrid cars now.. Either car manufacturers aren't trying on their appeal -- Such low HP on them and ugly designs -- or they are incapable of upping the HP and other functions. I don't know. Either way, I'm sure hybrid/electrical cars will eventually gain some appeal.
OK, we're pretty far off the topic of pricing and sharing actual purchasing experiences, so let's take this conversation over to our regular MINI Cooper ( S & Base Styles) topic and continue there.
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Greyscale, your outlook on the MINI's resale is awfully bleak. Historically, fuel economy doesn't dictate resale value. Look at the '94 to '96 Chevy Impala SS. They're horrible on gas mileage, but you can't get one with less than 50K miles for less than 16 - 20K (25 to 27K new). The day is a looooong way off before MINI depreciation will be as bad as a Hummer's. True the MCS is no leader of fuel economy, but its economy is much better than the average car in America today. And it will maintain its value based on looks, performance, amenities, coolness factor, then maybe fuel economy. Yes, eventually ALL gasoline powered cars will be worth next to nothing (if there's no fuel to run it on). Also, hybrids aren't the savior we need for internal combustion. I think diesel will soon be just as much a player in the US as it already is in the rest of the world. And the fact that corn can be turned into biodiesel (but not gasoline) means that the ic engine is not as doomed as you or some may think. Imagine the boon to the global farming industry when a diesel engine can run on pure biodiesel. It will happen. Every ic engine in the world will run on it and the ic engine will live on in diesel form. Oh yeah, I plan to keep my MCS until one of us dies. If gas gets too expensive, I'll convert it to a diesel and keep on trucking.
A reporter with a national magazine is on a series of articles with real people and their car buying experiences. The reporter is looking for people who have recently purchased a car and had an interesting car buying experience using non-traditional methods. Specfically, the reporter would like to speak with people who have purchased a Mustang, Chrysler 300, Dodge Magnum, a Mini Cooper hardtop or convertible or a hybrid vehicle of any make. If you fit what the reporter is looking for, please email the details of your car buying experience with your contact information to kholguin@edmunds.com by Friday, April 22, 2005.
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Hi everyone - I'm rolling off a 3 yr lease with Honda, and after months of car shopping and test driving, I'm settling on the MINI Cooper S - right now, I'm just trying to decide between the hardtop or the convertible. I'm going to lease the car, and taking it straight out of inventory from the MINI dealer in Pittsburgh. I'm just looking for some feedback on what I've negotiated - is it a good deal, or do you think I'm getting my head beat? Here are the quotes:
My notes are a little fuzzy, but I know the residual value is .6 on the quotes, and i'm almost certain the money factor is .0030. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Also, in rolling off my old lease, I'm going to owe Honda approx. $1400 (excess wear & tear, mileage, etc.) - has anyone had any luck negotiating a dealer to help pay down these charges (so they can make a sale)?
Lease payments seem a little high, just off the top of my head..
Is your Honda lease with AHFC? If so, they forgive $1500 of wear and tear.. but, you'll be on the hook for the mileage charges.. .they won't negotiate that away.
Hi there, I just found this board today; I really want to order a 2005 MCS hatchback. I have already spoken with a few dealers and they all have MARK-UPS!!! I DO NOT want to get one with a mark-up; I spoke with Las Vegas and they sell theirs at MSRP.
I live in Orange County, California, and it will only take a few hours to drive to Vegas, (not to mention the fun weekend I would have if I drive there!) However, it would definitely be more convenient to purchase it from Irvine or Crevier. I know Long Beach has no mark-up but I don't want to wait 10 months for the car; 3 months is good for me.
I spoke at length with Crevier and they will NOT sell me the car at MSRP.
Any ideas on how to get Irvine to sell to me at MSRP? I believe their mark-up is $1500 (something I definitely cannot afford.) Already with the options I want, my Mini would cost about $25,000.
With those lease payment quotes, you're better off buying an MCS.
I ran the numbers for the MCS hardtop with 2500 down payment and, assuming your quotes in clude tax, it would cost you about $15 more per month (60 month loan) to buy the MCS than it would cost you to lease the MCS convertible. It would be about $10 LESS than leasing the MCS hardtop with a 72 month loan. If you buy it, wear-and-tear and extra-mileage concerns would disappear and you don't have to worry about giving it back after three years. Plus, if or when you want something new, the resale value is excellent and would cover a decent down payment for your next car whether you sell it to a private party or trade it in.
Just so you know where I stand, I'm not a fan of leasing at all. I say, better to buy it in order to make some money back when you sell it.
There are a few dealers that will ship for around $500 and their wait times are no more than 2 to 3 months. I say, spec out your car on the web site and talk to an out of state dealer. They can order it and ship it for you for much less than a CA dealer markup if you buy off the lot. Is $500 worth not having to wait 10 months to you?
BTW, I just ordered my Dark Silver/White MCS this past Saturday and I have MINI on the brain. Being on the east coast, my wait is approximately 6 weeks. Aren't I lucky?
Yes!!! Lucky you! I have had Mini on the brain for the past 2 weeks; can't get it out of my head!!
However, the three month wait is perfect for me, because that means I will have my car in July--right around my birthday! I just need to hurry and order ASAP!
Congrats on your order, are you going to lease or buy?
Can you explain a little more what you mean about AHFC and forgiveness? I had the car inspected for end-of-lease, and they appraised me about $400 in excess wear and tear, and didn't mention any forgiveness at all. Is this only true if lease another car through AHFC?
Thanks for the feedback about the lease payments - I wasn't sure if it was high or not, and figured if it was high, it's just because the car was selling at MSRP... I'm going to get the breakdown of the numbers tomorrow, so hopefully I can find some inflated or superficial fee and have it negotiated out of the agreement. Thanks again!
thanks for the feedback - out of curiosity, what type of APR rate are you using to estimate the monthly payment on the 60-month loan? I did some quick calculations on the MINI site, and thank you for the suggestion - it does seem to be about the same price. I just don't have any interest in owning a car - this would be the third car i've leased - so now I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate the lease lower, rather than purchasing the car...
Well.. the guy doing the inspection will list everything... Otherwise, they don't know how much is there and if you fall under that $1500 amount.. If you are unsure, call AHFC and ask.. and no, you shouldn't have to lease another Honda to get that..
I haven't seen the lease numbers for MINIs this month, but you are correct about payments being high, because you are paying MSRP.. But, it looks like they could be marking up your money factor, as well..
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I am buying my Cooper S. I've been saving up for the last 8 months to put a nice down payment on it and not have to trade in my current car (My GF will sell her old Civic and drive my Intrigue). My monthly payments will be about $320.
D'oh! I forgot to tell you the APR I was using. I used 7.5%, an average APR for new cars for people with average to good credit. I used that number for both the 60 and 72 month loan. I would really suggest buying your car, especially since it's a MINI. When you're ready to get something new in three to four years and decide to lease again, you can sell the car to a private party and get a LOAD of money or trade it in for massively lower monthly payments.
I don't understand the aversion to owning that some people have. Is it the "hassle" of having to sell it? I mean, either way, you're still responsible for any body repairs that need to be made, any service the car needs, still have to pay for registration, tags, etc. But if you buy a car, there is value in it when you decide to get rid of it. And that's whether you trade it in or sell to a private party. Most cars sold OR leased are covered for 3 to 4 years free service from the dealer, so that advantage of leasing is gone. And in the end, you have to give back the leased vehicle AND dish out another down payment without getting anything in return. And buying a car does not mean you have to keep it for the entire length of the loan either. Well, I'm just venting. Good luck in whatever you do.
When you buy a car, the depreciation is your cost, which is essentially what your lease payments go towards. Yes, it is true when you buy there is value when it is time to sell. But don't forget you're just getting back something that you had paid for upfront, whereas when you lease you're just paying for what you're using up, so to speak. I used to be dead set against leasing too. But if you can find a good lease deal with high residual, and low lease rate, it's not a bad alternative.
Also, I think leasing is less stressful. You're shielded from issues such as diminished value if the car is banged up, vandalized, or stolen. If it is totalled, well, the lease simply comes to an end, and you go out and lease yourself another new car. If the car turns out to be problematic, it is much simply to just return it at the end of the lease vs. trying to sell it. Or if the particular model turns out to be a dud in the market place due to changing consumer tastes, or design flaw, or whatever, you're protected against unexpected drop in resale value.
But of course, if you're the type to keep a car for 8, 10 years or longer, then leasing is probably not for you.
Few questions for you Mini lovers. First, I'm in Phoenix where there's only one dealer who orders the car. Have an appt for Monday to discuss prices, etc. Test drove the S convertible and fell in love with it. Question 1... If I need to compare with out of state dealer, what's the best way to do such outside of actually traveling to them? And 2... Maybe a dumb question, but... Let's say I do purchase one in New Mexico, Nevada or Calif... Is it OK to drive the new one home brand new like that? I'm just thinking back to the days of when you had to, 'break in the motor' before you did any long trips on the highway, etc. Thanks for any input. Can't wait to order one wherever that may be!
- Blue - Sport Package - White Bonnet Stripes - Luggage Rack - Foot Rest (hehe) - Cruise Control Steering Wheel
MSRP was 20,040.......and thet is what the Mini dealer in Portland, OR sold it to me for. Of course there is a dealership fee of 175 (which includes floor mats, detailing, and a full tank o'petrol) and title and lisence fees of about 390 (which covers 4 years)
I am pleased :P , I should take delivery in late July - early August.
Personally I would avoid it, but I know many people don't think twice about doing it. If you have to do it, I would try to vary the speed as much as possible, with more rest stops. ie. don't cruise for hours at a constant speed.
I too am in Portland, OR and am seriously considering making an appointment with the MINI dealer here. Glad to hear about getting yours MSRP - overall, would you say your experience was a good one? Any suggestions/tips? Also, did the dealer indicate that delivery time was pretty standard? Seems so long when one falls in love with the car!
I have not purchased one yet, but I was just at the dealership in Palm Harbor and I they have a bunch of new convertibles (non S models and there was a green one) that I believe they sell at MSRP.
Has anyone heard of major changes to the 2006 MCS?
I'm ready to order one but can muster the patience for a 2006 model when they begin taking orders. Has anyone had any luck pricing an ordered MCS around to multiple dealers? I can fly most anywhere lower 48 to pick one up if the savings are significant. The Dallas dealers are sticking to MSRP with no negotiations on anything.
They say that MINI plans to introduce the new "Peugeot turbo" engine in fall 2005. This would qualify as a major change. New wrinkles to iron out, eh?
"BMW has, however, released details of the new generation of MINI engines. On the way initially are two petrol units: a normally-aspirated 1.6-litre with variable valve timing (115bhp) and a turbo-charged direct-injection 1.6-litre :confuse: (143bhp) .
The new engines are expected to make their debut for the 2006 model-year (cars built from autumn 2005), though the all-new body Mk2 MINI range is not due until 2007. This is said to include roadster and station wagon variants as well as hatchbacks and cabriolets, and will have revised suspension and slightly-tweaked front-end styling. :confuse:
Rjoy, where did you get your quote from? If it's true, I had a feeling that BMW would do this kind of thing, introducing the new engine before the new body style. They tend to do that kind of thing with their own marque. It makes me glad that I ordered my MCS a week ago, to be sure I got the Tritec engine.
Mini is not introducing the Peugeot engine until 2007. It is considering two turbo charger versions for both Cooper and "S". The Cooper will also be available in base 115 h.p as is now. See link below.
rjoy if you have seen another article to the contrary copy and paste the link for all to read. I have seen nothing more than the Autoweek article on the new generation Mini.
I ordered a MINI Cooper (not s) last week from Lauderdale MINI (south Florida). I paid MSRP and the $389 dealer fee (scam). However, they included the floor mats. Braman MINI (West Palm Beach, Fl) offered MSRP and $489.00 dealer fee without the floor mats. When I walked-out, they added the mats. But it was too late, I had already taken my check back. I was able to find a MINI for $200.00 under MSRP at Braman, but it was sitting on their lot for quite a while and it did not have any options I wanted. It was a bare bones MINI.
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But the problem is that I don't think the dealer will give us that break on their mark up.
However.. I'm thinking I'll just go to another dealer either out of state or up north in CA. My Mom is onboard with the idea of going to a MSRP dealer with no wait and ordering our own which will be cheaper or basically of the same price and exactly how I want it.
Seriously.. With the prices the dealer is quoting us now, is it possible to have them any worse? I don't think so. So we are thinking of just ordering our own from a MSRP dealer and making the trip out there. I'm going to call the Pleasanton, CA and OK City and a few Texas dealerships to see which are MSRP and if their ordering list is open.
As much as I like the dealer we have at Bob Smith.. She just isn't cutting us any slack when it comes to the payments. The mark up is there causing the car to be 26k... I can go get another car for 30k and get lower payments. So we are really considering an out of area dealership.
Oh um.. If you understand how leasing works and how buying it out in the end works, could you explain, please? I thought you put money down and pay monthly and then can buy it out at the end of the least for whatever amount is left to pay but from what I learned at Toyota it doesn't work that way... How does it work?
At an MSRP of around $25K, you could just buy the car.. With only the sales tax upfront, your payments would be a little less than $500 over 60 months... Since you want to own the car, anyway... Just go ahead and buy it..
regards,
kyfdx
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I don't understand how leasing a 25k dollar car costs more than a 40k suv. =/
2) The interest rate on the lease is unsupported by the manufacturer
3) Your dealer is marking up the money factor on the lease to add even more profit on the deal.
My take... Leasing is just an alternative method of financing... If you can't afford the 60 month payments, you probably should be getting a less expensive car..
Not that I recommend this, but if you want to own the car at a lease-like payment, look into 84 month financing. BMWFS won't likely do this, but your dealer should have other banks that will.
regards,
kyfdx
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I am financing through my credit union and the rates are excellent compared to rates you'd get through a dealer. Definitely check banks for their rates.
If you're looking to buy it out, some banks offer 72 month loans at 5.5 to 7.5%. It may be better to buy it from the get-go.
A $25,100 (order it to avoid markup, don't buy it off the lot) MCS auto with 3K down and an assumed 5% tax, at a rate of 7.5% interest for 72 months gives you $404/month. So for $20 more per month than the lease number you've been quoted, you could be buying it outright. Sounds like the better deal to me.
If you MUST keep the payments closer to $300/month, look at the Cooper instead. Or learn to drive stick and give up some amenities.
I just got finished talking with OK City Mini and for the same price they quoted me 390 a month with tax, 12k miles though instead of 10.
Now the pros and cons to buying the Mini here are:
Pros: Get the car now, no hassle of bringing the car into state and will be able to return the car to the dealer if it needs to be in shop for a few days and get a loaner.
Cons: $22 more, I didn't get to create it myself online, 1.5k goes towards mark up instead of additional features such as DSC and Xenon headlights or seat warmers.
But the 1.5k extra.. Wouldn't it cost just about the same brining the car into state and having to register it here and all? I know when my mom brought her Jetta here from NM she almost had to pay about 1k. And that extra $500... Flying to OKC and driving home.
I'm just wondering... Does anyone buy a Mini offlot? It feels sort of impersonal getting a Mini that someone else designed other than myself and not seeing him be developed. I missed out on all those years of my Mini.
If you have the patience to wait, I suggest you order one for purchase, not for lease, from out of state. Take the time online to personalize it. There are a few dealerships that advertise the fact that they ship to your door for only $500. And the wait outside of CA is only 2 to 3 months. And, you know, you are not required to go to the same dealer you bought your MINI from to have it serviced. If that were the case, too many people would be raising cain about it and that policy would have been dropped already.
Leasing for over $400 a month? A MINI? You might as well buy it. Save yourself 10's of thousands over buying it at the end of a lease (these cars have virtually no depreciation, you will pay A LOT to buy it out).
I hate to sow seeds of doubt over your decision to lease, but at the numbers you're quoting, it really is in your best interest to buy it at the beginning.
Better to pay a little more each month for 5 to 6 years, owning it after it's said and done, than paying 22K through 4 years, then owing another 17 to 20K (counting for depreciation) to buy it out after a lease period (which means taking out a loan for 5 more years, do you really want to pay for your car for 9 to 10 years?).
Look, I'm just trying to save you money, but all of the above is just my opinion. Heed it or ignore it completely.
I think we might go ahead and try to buy out from the start through USAA. We have a check they sent us in the mail for a car loan with 4.84% APR and the payments aren't really that bad if we put 6k down and finance the rest for 60 months. I really wish we could use the Mini Select financing program!
As for ordering... Do you think that is nessecary? Sure the Mini will be exactly how I want it but I'm just as happy with the one I'll be getting from Bob Smith, the only difference is that instead of that 15 hundred mark up I could get DSC and nicer headlights or save the money but at the cost of waiting though with waiting I could watch it be made and it'll be more personal. Am I going to be the only Mini lover to not have had ordered their Mini? =/
But with the service thing... I know any Mini service department will work on my Mini but they won't give me a loaner. If my Mini is going to be in service for a week they won't give me a loaner unless I bought the car from them, which is the advantage of getting the Mini at Bob Smith.
Also, that half off mark up is with them thinking we are going to lease. Would they maybe give us the full mark up if we said we are going to buy the car out?
I'd much rather have $1500 or even $800 in options, rather than put $1500 extra in the dealer's pocket.
Buying after leasing isn't a "rip-off", but if that is your intention from the beginning, it will be cheaper to buy it from the start.
The "rip-off" comes from the dealers playing with the lease numbers.. Get your own 60 or 72 month financing lined up beforehand, and the dealer may even get you a better deal on the financing, when he learns what he is competing against.
The dealer that is marking the car up $1500 over MSRP? They won't drop the price because you bring in a 3rd party or finance instead of lease.. Neither of those things helps them in any way... It is all about the money..
Get your financing in-line.. pre-approved.. Go back in and tell them you will buy today at MSRP... You might be surprised.. If not, go out of town..
regards,
kyfdx
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Gopguyca, IMO order what you want and buy it, since your not impatient a 6-8 week wait for it is not as long as you think, you won't regret the decision nor be putting all that extra money into a salesmans pocket. I bought my Cooper outright and handled the financing thru a home equity loan since the interest is deductable on my taxes unlike a car loan/dealer financing.
and being from upstate N.Y I'll trade you one George Pataki for Arnold anyday LOL
Ray T. :P
We could afford to finance through USAA putting 6k or so down and making the term for 60 months or so but I'm scared they might give us the full mark up with us not leasing from them. Unless the dealer prefers a buy out, I don't know.
But with 6k down we could get better lease payments but I think it's crazy to put that much down on a leased car as that money is just being thrown out the window really. Or am I wrong? Because that down payment doesn't go to buying the car out in the end, does it?
Going out of town is still an option and the wait doesn't really bother me but I really just want to get my car now, ya know? This is going to be my first car and I'm happy with the one they are expecting. I just regret missing out on seeing the car be made and the fact that 1.5k is going to a dealer instead of my car, but really... It's like cutting in line or beating the rush that MSRP dealers in CA or avoiding the hassle of going out of state to pick it up. And for me, driving the car home from OK or TX will probably be as much as their mark up by the time I stop for gas, food and lodging.. I like to eat during road trips! Also my Mom would have to come because she is a co-signer, so for the two of us to fly out and all it'll be about the same price.
Also, we plan on doing some driving around this summer, don't want to get burnt out already, lol.
I just hate that mark up really. I can do without making my own in exchange for the getting it now seeing how the car they are expecting I like and would probably make anyway, but I hate that mark up.
All your posts make it sound like you're conflicted, which is even more of an indicator that you shouldn't make any quick decisions. Here on the east coast, the wait is 2 months. Is the whole west coast subject to the 6 to 9-month wait? If not, try Nevada, Oregon, Arizona, etc. Besides, when it comes time to pick it up, Greyhound bus really isn't that expensive
Also, if you buy out-of-state, and are worried about not having a free loaner car from the local dealer, think about the following...
The average loaner car is about $25 per day from your average rental agency. Let's say your MCS is at the local dealer three times a year for whatever reason (let's hope not, considering the oil change is every 10K miles), and you have the loaner car overnight until you get your MCS back the next day. It's cheaper for you to pay $150 a year in loaner car fees than it would be to pay an extra $1500 markup to get the car now. It would take ten years of three overnight visits per year to equal the CA dealer markup. Also, chances are better a loaner would be available from a third party, considering the small number of MINI dealers and, consequently, the high number of vehicles being serviced per dealer. Is this making fiscal sense to you?
Another, more patience-testing option is to order within California, save yourself the mark-up, wait 6-7 months, and in that time, have accumulated enough savings for a 8 or 9K down payment. That'll get you closer to your $300/month target. Honestly, if you can afford a 6K down payment right now (most people can't), AND you recognize the fact that all that money is considered gone if you lease, then I can't see how you would justify leasing. Just BUY the d@mn car.
Well, I can't think of much more to say that would convince you to buy up-front. It sounds like you want your Cooper S NOW, and you're willing to go the exorbitantly more expensive "lease-to-buy" route. I'm rooting for you whichever path you take (because it's a MINI), but if a line is drawn in the sand, I step over to the BUY side. Good luck.
But I do need a car now, and not just me but my family. It's going to be my first car and it really isnt' mine exactly but more like the families. We have a huge SUV which just guzzles down gas and we are having to go over the hill every day it seems, the SUV is costing us too much in gas. Also we need another car. My brother is about to start driving and we don't have enough cars for us to get around as I have a job and my brother is about to have a job as well. We need the other car.
If it was just me getting a new car or wanting a secondary car... Sure, we can wait. But the fact is we need another car and I need a car period. Fortunatly for me my Mom is going to help out some because we do need another car in the family and something more cost effiecient compared to our SUV.
Personally.. I would much rather take that 1.5k and get additional options such as DSC and the better headlights with the chance of an adventure -- Going to pick up my Mini and driving it home. But my Mom isn't overly crazy about that as she sees it more as a hassle rather than an adventure, though she doesn't mind it at all if we got it in OKC, which is possible as their wait is onyl 3 months, but the fact still remains that we do need another car.
We also went over the possibility of financing if we put down 6k for a 60 month term through USAA... I forget how much the payments are but they are around the same price if we lease with a 3k down payment. But we came to the conclusion that we really can't afford to put down that much. So we are just going to lease with a 3k down payment.
I know it's a rip off whether we buy out in the end or not but it's really the most easiest option for us at the moment. I thank you for your input though and adding that new perspective, I never looked at it from that angle.
I reviewed your post about a 4.84% check for a car loan. Is that limited to a 60 month term? If not, you could put down 3K, finance for 72 months, and end up paying almost exactly the same per month as you would pay for a 60 month term w/ 6K down payment. Run the calculations. Try any online loan calculator. Definitely an incentive to buy in my book.
If the automakers don't crank out more hybrids soon, the best we will see is more small cars, gasoline-powered, along the same lines as the Mini - euro-inspired, compact, better gas mileage. That in itself will give the Mini competition. So I don't see this car as having any lasting value in the future. But I didn't buy mine to resell at some later date. I'll probably keep mine until gas is too expensive. I already ride a bicycle almost everywhere anyway. I have considered selling my car and getting a hybrid but have ruled that out for the immediate future.
But at the same time, there is speculation of Mini changing the Cooper too much with the 07 models. Sure, I can always get a Mini at a later time, but if the speculations are true -- Such as the Mini getting bigger -- I won't be able to. From some of the photos of how the new Mini's interior may look, also something to be worried about. Very ugly and unappealing. Doesn't look as friendly as the Mini does now. And with the size.. One of the main attractions to the Mini is it's small size.
In that regard, the current Minis could very well turn out to be classics. Also the dealer at my Mini place said that BMW isn't going to make any more factories to manufacture them, meaning the overall number of them world-wide will remain limited -- Not sure on how true that is coming from a dealer but eh!
The Mini's value can go either way as there are several factors to look into but I really think it's going to lose the value. Right now they are extremely trendy.. Give them a few more years to let that wear off. Also, there is no competition. There is no other small car in the N American market to compete against the Mini. Those who want a small car have no other place to look other than the Mini. But if they do change alot in the 07 models then our Minis now will more than likely hold some value.
As for future cars.. In 2010 they are supposed to be releasing hydro-powered cars. And hybrid cars now.. Either car manufacturers aren't trying on their appeal -- Such low HP on them and ugly designs -- or they are incapable of upping the HP and other functions. I don't know. Either way, I'm sure hybrid/electrical cars will eventually gain some appeal.
kirstie_h
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Also, hybrids aren't the savior we need for internal combustion. I think diesel will soon be just as much a player in the US as it already is in the rest of the world. And the fact that corn can be turned into biodiesel (but not gasoline) means that the ic engine is not as doomed as you or some may think. Imagine the boon to the global farming industry when a diesel engine can run on pure biodiesel. It will happen. Every ic engine in the world will run on it and the ic engine will live on in diesel form.
Oh yeah, I plan to keep my MCS until one of us dies. If gas gets too expensive, I'll convert it to a diesel and keep on trucking.
and I thought you were gonna say" I'll take it with me and convert it to a coffin !" Now that would be a statement to the end. LOL
Biodiesel is the way of future cars in US I think too and will help revive our farm industry to boot ! :shades:
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'05 MCS w/ premium, sport, cold weather packages & Harmon Kardon sound system, rain-sensing windshield wipers
MSRP: $25,270
Down: $2500 (includes down payment & inception fees)
Term: 48mo/15,000 yr
Payment: $402/month
'05 MCS Convertible w/ premium, cold weather packages, xenon headlights
MSRP: $27,570
Down: $2500 (includes down payment & inception fees)
Term: 48mo/15,000 yr
Payment: $442/month
My notes are a little fuzzy, but I know the residual value is .6 on the quotes, and i'm almost certain the money factor is .0030. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Also, in rolling off my old lease, I'm going to owe Honda approx. $1400 (excess wear & tear, mileage, etc.) - has anyone had any luck negotiating a dealer to help pay down these charges (so they can make a sale)?
Is your Honda lease with AHFC? If so, they forgive $1500 of wear and tear.. but, you'll be on the hook for the mileage charges.. .they won't negotiate that away.
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I live in Orange County, California, and it will only take a few hours to drive to Vegas, (not to mention the fun weekend I would have if I drive there!) However, it would definitely be more convenient to purchase it from Irvine or Crevier. I know Long Beach has no mark-up but I don't want to wait 10 months for the car; 3 months is good for me.
I spoke at length with Crevier and they will NOT sell me the car at MSRP.
Any ideas on how to get Irvine to sell to me at MSRP? I believe their mark-up is $1500 (something I definitely cannot afford.) Already with the options I want, my Mini would cost about $25,000.
Let me know what you think.
I ran the numbers for the MCS hardtop with 2500 down payment and, assuming your quotes in clude tax, it would cost you about $15 more per month (60 month loan) to buy the MCS than it would cost you to lease the MCS convertible. It would be about $10 LESS than leasing the MCS hardtop with a 72 month loan. If you buy it, wear-and-tear and extra-mileage concerns would disappear and you don't have to worry about giving it back after three years. Plus, if or when you want something new, the resale value is excellent and would cover a decent down payment for your next car whether you sell it to a private party or trade it in.
Just so you know where I stand, I'm not a fan of leasing at all. I say, better to buy it in order to make some money back when you sell it.
There are a few dealers that will ship for around $500 and their wait times are no more than 2 to 3 months. I say, spec out your car on the web site and talk to an out of state dealer. They can order it and ship it for you for much less than a CA dealer markup if you buy off the lot. Is $500 worth not having to wait 10 months to you?
BTW, I just ordered my Dark Silver/White MCS this past Saturday and I have MINI on the brain. Being on the east coast, my wait is approximately 6 weeks. Aren't I lucky?
However, the three month wait is perfect for me, because that means I will have my car in July--right around my birthday! I just need to hurry and order ASAP!
Congrats on your order, are you going to lease or buy?
:confuse:
Thanks for the feedback about the lease payments - I wasn't sure if it was high or not, and figured if it was high, it's just because the car was selling at MSRP... I'm going to get the breakdown of the numbers tomorrow, so hopefully I can find some inflated or superficial fee and have it negotiated out of the agreement. Thanks again!
thanks for the feedback - out of curiosity, what type of APR rate are you using to estimate the monthly payment on the 60-month loan? I did some quick calculations on the MINI site, and thank you for the suggestion - it does seem to be about the same price. I just don't have any interest in owning a car - this would be the third car i've leased - so now I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate the lease lower, rather than purchasing the car...
I haven't seen the lease numbers for MINIs this month, but you are correct about payments being high, because you are paying MSRP.. But, it looks like they could be marking up your money factor, as well..
regards,
kyfdx
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kirstie_h
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I don't understand the aversion to owning that some people have. Is it the "hassle" of having to sell it? I mean, either way, you're still responsible for any body repairs that need to be made, any service the car needs, still have to pay for registration, tags, etc. But if you buy a car, there is value in it when you decide to get rid of it. And that's whether you trade it in or sell to a private party. Most cars sold OR leased are covered for 3 to 4 years free service from the dealer, so that advantage of leasing is gone. And in the end, you have to give back the leased vehicle AND dish out another down payment without getting anything in return. And buying a car does not mean you have to keep it for the entire length of the loan either.
Well, I'm just venting. Good luck in whatever you do.
Also, I think leasing is less stressful. You're shielded from issues such as diminished value if the car is banged up, vandalized, or stolen. If it is totalled, well, the lease simply comes to an end, and you go out and lease yourself another new car. If the car turns out to be problematic, it is much simply to just return it at the end of the lease vs. trying to sell it. Or if the particular model turns out to be a dud in the market place due to changing consumer tastes, or design flaw, or whatever, you're protected against unexpected drop in resale value.
But of course, if you're the type to keep a car for 8, 10 years or longer, then leasing is probably not for you.
Scheduled delivery is September for the 'S' or July for the regular Mini.
Good luck getting yours.
Roger
- Blue
- Sport Package
- White Bonnet Stripes
- Luggage Rack
- Foot Rest (hehe)
- Cruise Control Steering Wheel
MSRP was 20,040.......and thet is what the Mini dealer in Portland, OR sold it to me for. Of course there is a dealership fee of 175 (which includes floor mats, detailing, and a full tank o'petrol) and title and lisence fees of about 390 (which covers 4 years)
I am pleased :P , I should take delivery in late July - early August.
Murff
I am concerened I won't get it at MSRP. Is it possible they sell the coupes at MSRP and not the convertibles?
Anyways here is what I want.
Mini Cooper Convertible -non S
Automatic
Front/Rear Fogs
Premium Package
Green
MSRP from my calculations is $24,900
which includes Destination.
When do the 2006 models arrive?
-Glavin :shades:
I'm ready to order one but can muster the patience for a 2006 model when they begin taking orders. Has anyone had any luck pricing an ordered MCS around to multiple dealers? I can fly most anywhere lower 48 to pick one up if the savings are significant. The Dallas dealers are sticking to MSRP with no negotiations on anything.
"BMW has, however, released details of the new generation of MINI engines. On the way initially are two petrol units: a normally-aspirated 1.6-litre with variable valve timing (115bhp) and a turbo-charged direct-injection 1.6-litre :confuse: (143bhp) .
The new engines are expected to make their debut for the 2006 model-year (cars built from autumn 2005), though the all-new body Mk2 MINI range is not due until 2007. This is said to include roadster and station wagon variants as well as hatchbacks and cabriolets, and will have revised suspension and slightly-tweaked front-end styling. :confuse:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102232
rjoy if you have seen another article to the contrary copy and paste the link for all to read. I have seen nothing more than the Autoweek article on the new generation Mini.
Ray T. :P