Lexus RX 400h and 450h

lok888

Are we still in the beginning of the hybrid cars era? It looks like we will have the hybrid version of the Lexus RX400h and Ford Escape later this year, then Toyota Highlander and Honda Accord in next year, and possible Toyota Camry and Sienna to follow. I like to see more hybrid cars are being built. So the price for hybrid cars will be affordable. Are auto markers intend to build more clear fuel (hybrid) vehicles? People are just getting tired to choice whether to buy gas or milk these days.

stevedebi

"SUV burn more gas than mid-size family cars to start with. 400h will reduce more gas usage(in gallons) than Prius. HSD in any form will reduce gas usage, lower emission, and increase performance at the same time."

Dennis, I never said they wouldn't be better. I said they wouldn't help as much as a fully efficient (i.e., smaller and more aerodynamic) hybrid. In environmental terms, there is a big difference between 30 MPG and 60 MPG.

usbseawolf2000

I agree that 55mpg is better than 33.5mpg. All I am saying is, SUV fuel consumption reduction will be greater than mid-size car reduction because SUV consume larger amount of fuel. Imagine cutting a small piece of a very large pie vs. a large piece of a very small pie.

Dennis

Kirstie_H

A reporter is looking to interview folks anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Ford Escape Hybrid, Lexus RX 400, etc. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info and some thoughts on the vehicle no later than 2pm Pacific on Monday, May 24, 2004.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

lexrexblue

Although there are few details, apparently these cars are in high demand. Forget test driving until they arrive. My dealer had little info and only the brochure that was given at the NY Auto Show. I gave a deposit and we'll see. Because the waiting list is already high and they think the cars will start arriving in Jan. or Feb. I don't expect to get a car until late spring--a year from now. I'd prefer not to get the first batch so they can work out the glitches first. Does anyone know how many will be made in the first batch? Details?

lok888

I spoke a local Lexus dealer probably two to three months ago. There were about 50 people on the list with $500 refundable deposit. I recently talked to them again. The release date is December. They expected it will cost $5000 or more than current model. With the high demand, you won't able to get one of those until this time next year in this area. As you know, it is the same situation with Toyota Prius. They are selling at MSRP with up to one year of wait depends on the options and color. There are about 50,000 Prius being built a year. I have no idea how many RX400h will be built.

crimsono2

Does anyone know where the RX400h will be built? If it will be built in their plant in Canada, I would think the wait for delivery would be much shorter than having to wait trans-pacific deliveries of a car (ie the Prius).

oldboy

According to an article at GreenHybrid.com Toyota will be building the RX400h and the Highlander hybrid at their plant in Kyushu, Japan. I expect that it will be some time before we will see them building their hybrids in North America.

lexrexblue

I read that it was being built in Japan.

hongcho

Since someone said +10 mpg... The gas station nearest to my home (in San Jose, California) has its gas prices as $2.31, $2.43 and $2.53. I don't know what the national average was.

On average of 15,000 miles per year, that would be $3,465 to $3,795 per year for where I live.

And that "+10 mpg" also includes some performance increase (almost certainly not quite V8).

Hong.

avery1

Hong, unless you are using "new math" that I don't understand I think you must have made a mathematical error in your calculations. 15,000 miles/year at 20mpg=750 gallons for a total cost of $1875 at $2.50/gallon

lok888

Using the same method, 15,000 miles/year at 30 mpg = 500 gallons for a total cost of $1250 at $2.50/gallon. You spend $625 less on gas on RX400h than RX330. But you need to keep your car at least 8 years just cover to the $5000 premium cost or just a little over 5 years if it can achieve 40 mpg. And you will get the gas saving benefit after 8 years. By then, the warranty on battery pack will be expired. Unfortunately, we can't predict what the gas price will be in 8 years. Arms and legs or my retirement plan?

Firebird_EOU

If it's $5k more and no discount, vs 330 which at least $2k below MSRP that means $7k difference.

usbseawolf2000

"And you will get the gas saving benefit after 8 years. By then, the warranty on battery pack will be expired."

I heard that RX400h will have lifetime battery warrenty. Your price comparison did not put a price tag on HSD power delivery, smoothness, reliability, low emission, and other benefits.

Dennis

andy71

That's a very good point. Buying the 400h over the 330 makes good sense from an environmental point of view ( lower emission, less greenhouse gas). You also get added power 270 Hp vs 230. But to recoup the extra money, you have to own the 400h for almost 8 years ( could be sooner if gas prices keep going up like this). If there really is a lifetime warranty on the battery that definitely would be a big plus for me since I keep my cars for at least 10 years, hence my preference for Toyotas.

stevedebi

No way Toyota would grant a lifetime warranty. Those batteries are going to wear out eventually, and Toyota knows it.

I will believe it when I see the websites and news releases.

hongcho

Oops... I must have typed something very wrong. Thanks for the correction.

Hong.

lexrexblue

Let's hope that the batteries that they use in the 400h will be more dependable than the batteries they've been putting in the RXs. My dealer discovered that my battery wasn't functioning properly and replaced it during a normal service. Then, at the next service it was discovered that the new battery was defective! So, I'm on my third battery! I will give Lexus credit for discovering the poor battery. There was no noticeable change in performance that I noticed. It's better for them to find the problem before I get stuck.
By the way, I had a similar problem with my Acura years ago. Maybe the Japanese don't make wonderful batteries.

rfruth

I've had pretty good luck with 12 volt lead acid batteries - now a question, will the 400h traction battery be a Ni-MH like the Prius. Who makes them ?

stevedebi

The hybrid will use Ni-MH batteries, I think from Samsung (but don't quote me). This is completely different from the normal 12 volt battery (which the hybrid also has, as a backup starter battery).

usbseawolf2000

Prius uses Panasonic NiMH battery. Logic tells me that Lexus will also use Panasonic.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"now a question, will the 400h traction battery be a Ni-MH like the Prius. Who makes them ?"

400h batteries will be Nimh because it will weight 70kg. You can convert it to lbs. Panasonic makes them.

Dennis

lok888

I doubt Toyota will give lifetime warranty on the battery pack on RX400h. It should be 8 years like Prius. But my point was regardless the warranty issue, the owners must save $1000 per year on gas for over 5 years in order to cover the premium cost. With average 15,000 miles per year for many drivers and with $2.50/gallon at the pump, you still can't reach the $1000 savings. By the way, my math was based on 40 mpg gas mileage. Does anyone know the RX400h will run on premium gas?

maxhonda99

Maybe for some consumers of hybrid vehicles it's not about recouping the initial additional cash outlay from gas savings. To some people it may just be about getting better gas mileage for the sake of the planet and they really don't care if they recoup the $3K additional they may spend to buy a hybrid over 5 yrs. or 10 yrs.

lok888

I hear you. But I figured $5,000 can buy you 2,000 gallons of gasoline at today's price of $2.50... still love the price of $0.79 or less per gallon when I got my first car like a little more than a decade ago. And you can probably drive 50,000 miles on a regular RX330 with 2000 gallons of gas at approx. 25 mpg.

michael2003

Everyone should also consider that the additional cost will not necessarily be 100% depreciated over the period of time they own the vehicle. I would expect that even though the vehicle will probably cost more up front, we should also expect it to have a higher resale.

buckeye1

I just bought new 12v battery for my '96 Avalon. Original battery manufactured in Sept '95...lasted until May 2004...going well into its 9th year, and still measured "fair" in all cells.

I replaced it last month when faced with a 1200 mile vacation trip to the wilds of Arizona...didn't want to chance sudden battery failure. So, at the other end of the spectrum, Toyota OE batteries last well over 8 years!

andyux2

That's where I am. As it is, I drive a 1983 Toyota Supra (original owner) with 250k+ miles. It's still in beautiful condition but after 21 years I think I've earned my way into the Lexus name and the 400h will definitely get better mileage than my Supra. I like the low emissions aspect of hybrids too.I don't care about recouping the cost. I buy my car for the long run and ten years from now we'll probably all be laughing at how cheap cars were in 2005.

lok888

I see this differently. I bought my '93 Honda Accord 10th Edition back in '93 for $15K ($19K MSRP). The car looked better than average 10 year old car when I sold it last year. On the other hand, the MSRP is around $20K for an '04 Accord LX these days. There is only $1000+ different (with more horsepower and better transmission) in 10 years. So don't laugh yet until the mass production of these clean fuel (hybrid) vehicle take place.

stevedebi

The resale value will be affected by how the battery pack holds up. It is only warranted to 150K, so the potential buyer has to factor in replacement costs. Who knows what that cost will be when you attempt to sell, but it's been quoted at about $3500 to replace the whole pack at today's prices.

On another idea, you can't compare the life of a standard 12 volt battery with the Ni-MH batteries of the Hybrid, so reports of long lasting batteries are of no use. The Ni-Mh goes though countless recharge cycles in it's lifetime, continuously.

BTW, I'll repeat my prediction of less than 34 MPG in most "real world" driving conditions, possibly less than 30 combined MPG. The HLH is going to be a heavy vehicle. I suspect the performace will be up to par, though I'm interested in the towing numbers...

jfz

The discussions about the use of the V-6 versus the 4 cyl for the hybrid should be viewed from the perspective of the potential use of the vehicle. In a Prius, the gross weight of the car is low enough for the small gasoline engine. In cars/trucks with higher load or towing requirements, the engine must be capable of handling power demands without hybrid assistance. I believe that early testing of GM full-size pickup trucks showed the vulnerability of the hybrid when towing at capacity on long inclines. Those protracted periods of power-demand deplete the battery storage and leave the gasoline engine as the sole source of power.

 In the RX hybrid, a 4 cylinder engine would not have the power for payload or towing needs. However, the hybrid management should allow the V-6 to operate in optimum conditions and only when needed.

kevliu11

Hi, I have a 2003 camry right now, thinking to get something hybrid. I drive more than 60k miles a year, is 400h able to help me reduce my cost? Any opinion will be helpful.

xcel

Hi Kevliu11:

___I am going to make a few assumptions here? First I am assuming you are doing 60,000 a year with 90 + % highway type driving? If so, you own an 03 Camry 4 w/ Auto (assumption?) and its rated for 32 on the hwy. The preliminary guesstimates for the RXh are possibly 36 city/31 highway. If the assumptions and guesstimates above are correct, then no, you won’t save any money by purchasing an RXh.

___In another comparison already done in the thread somewhere I am sure, the RX vs. RXh hybrid premium being discussed is on the order of $5,000 - $6,000. Considering you can pick up an RX 330 for let’s say $2,500 under right now (RX400 should be at least $1K under MSRP after a few months??) vs. a definite MSRP for the RXh when it becomes available is something to think about. The RXh should have an ~ 1 second to 60 advantage which is worth a few thousand to many … Std. ICE 4 vs. 6 type comparisons I am thinking of in that regard. Anyway, the 4WD RX330 receives a combined 21(18/24) vs. the RXh’s possible 33. Over 150,000 miles, 4545 gallons would be used in the RXh and 7,142 gallons for the RX which is ~ $5,100 in favor of the hybrid. That is if it receives an actual 36/31 city/hwy and you drove almost to a tee, ~ 45% city/ ~ 55% hwy … This is not a new RX400 vs. RX400h comparison but an RX330 vs. RX400h comparison so who knows?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

Firebird_EOU

miles the battery is supposed to last. They say life of vehicle which might be 200k miles = 5 yrs of your driving time. We have to assume that you need the extra cargo space of Rx over Camry, and should compare based on Rx330 and 400h. Another good point is that you'll stop less for gas, thus waste less time filling up. Besides saving fuel cost you do get the added HP perf. gain.

lok888

Isn't it 60,000 miles per year? It takes few years for average drivers to do that.

If this is correct, let's assume the RX400h can do 35 mpg. You will need about 1700 gallons of gas per year. And it costs you about $4290 at $2.5 per gallon for one year.

The fuel consumption for RX330 (AWD) is 18/24 mpg (city/highway). I assume you are doing 90% or more highway mileage. You will need 2500 gallons, $6250 per year at $2.50 per gallon.

You will save $1960 per year on gas on RX400h over the RX330 ($4290 vs. $6250). You will recover the $5000 premium cost (most dealers' quote) in a little less than 3 years and waste less time in gas station. And your RX400h will have 180,000 miles on the odometer. According to Edmunds' True Cost to Own, the RX330 costs about $1500 per year on gas and over $7000 for 5 years.

rparis

Has anyone heard if the RX400h will be identical in appearance to the present 330? Also, many dealers, according to another town hall topic, are receiving over a $4000 discount. If the 400h will be, let's say, $4000 more, then there is an $8000 difference more or less (excluding government rebates) which, even under today's prices will buy a lot of gas.

60mpg

with it full to the brim with kids, wife and luggage, 90% FEWER exhaust pollution of OTHER 2004 Cars-SUVs(TANKS). GAS PRICES WILL NEVER BE GOING DOWN TANK OWNERS!

Recoup cost is one thing, less air pollution is much more the issue.

All 2004 Prius's sold in a few months, all Ford Hybrid Excapes spoken for before going on sale! Detroit better get on board or Toyota will eat their Lunch, and coming from the Detroit MI area this does not please me!

Sylvia

A reporter would like to talk with anyone who has ordered or considered ordering an RX400h. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime phone number by June 9, 2004.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

silvereagle2

Just using this remark to inform the board that the launch of the 400h will be delayed from December 2005. I had my wife's GS 300 to our dealer for service today and the Service Director told me that Lexus is having a problem with the batteries. They are trying to get as much power out of the batteries as they can and are having problems doing so. He said it will be this time next year(June or July) before any arrive at the dealers. We want to trade our 2001 RX 300 for a 400h and he said he is sorry for the disappoinment.

silvereagle2

The launch will be delayed from December 2004, not as I incorrectly typed as 2005

lexrexblue

I had heard from my salesman that the original delay was due to the battery shortage. I am not thrilled to hear that they are that far behind. I'm going to call my dealer Monday and confirm this.

silvereagle2

It isn't a matter of supply, it is a problem about squeezing as much power out of the battery. Lexus hasn't quite gotten to the bottom line on that and until they do, it may not be until mid summer for the launch. I've owned 4 Lexus over 10 years and will not buy any other car. I'm also reconsidering whether it is worth the additional money and possibility that the cost of batteries will be high. Add it all up and it just doesn't make sense buying the hybrid.

john1701a

> the Service Director told me that Lexus is having a problem with the batteries.

There has been a ton of anti-hybrid press lately, stuff that is just blantantly incorrect. So the odds of this being just a rumor is extremely high. It could also be a misunderstanding, where outdated information has resurfaced or been matched to the wrong vehicle.

Prove your claim.

JOHN

silvereagle2

John, I've been dealing with my Lexus dealer for 10 years now and have a long relationship with this service director. He was aware that my wife is ordering a 400h. He said many of their loyal customers were disappointed when the dealership passed the word on about the delay. This happens to be the largest Lexus dealer in the country and I doubt that they are blowing smoke up anyone's tail pipe.
Prove the claim!!!!! Call your Lexus dealer-I can't give out any names or phone numbers here as it is against the rules. As a post script, I never thought the forum was for proving claims, just for passing on what we hear from our respective dealers and to ask questions..

jabnva

I just spoke with my dealer here in VA. They looked into the potential postponned release date. The Lexus regional mangager told my dealer that the car will not be out until APRIL 2005 due to some issues that they are having with the transmission.

usbseawolf2000

"It isn't a matter of supply, it is a problem about squeezing as much power out of the battery."

Interesting. Lexus announced that RX400h battery pack will be twice bigger than Prius'. I compiled a picture of RX400h battery pack and counted 56 modules which were consistent with the announcement(Prius has 28). Maybe, Lexus decided to use the next generation higher power density Panasonic Prismatic NiMH Hybrid Vehicle battery. This is just a speculation trying to make sense of "squeezing as much power", if it is really true.



Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"The Lexus regional mangager told my dealer that the car will not be out until APRIL 2005 due to some issues that they are having with the transmission."

Sorry, it doesn't make any sense. HSD does not have a transmission like traditional cars. Power Split Device(PSD) and two electric motors as shown above contribute their roles along with Internal Combustion Engine to "create" equivalent CVT behavior. It looks very similar to Prius and I don't think Lexus is making many modification. The design is proven to be very reliable for 7 years already.

Dennis

djasonw

So much for a prediction of $3/gal gas by mid summer. Here's my prediction. The national average for gas at 8.31.04 will be $1.87.
Anyone care to wager???

usbseawolf2000

I don't know if all of you are aware of "The Great Battery Debate" board but I posted more info about Panasonic Hybrid Vehicle(HV) battery there.

usbseawolf2000 "The Great Battery Debate" Jun 10, 2004 9:24pm

Enjoy,

Dennis

oldboy

I suspect that you are right. Prince Bandar has promised Bush to get gas prices down before the election. But after November, look out! Back on topic: If the Lexus hybrid is delayed until next April, won't the Highlander hybrid be delayed as well? I believe that Toyota wants the more expensive Lexus to be available well before the Highlander appears.