Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Lexus RX 400h and 450h

145791041

Comments

  • wohlfwohlf Member Posts: 14
    Lexuswannabe, you create a bizarre situation in which you claim to need to own the car for 8 years inspite of certainty in your mind that their is a $7k battery charge coming in year 7 or 8. Maybe it is not a good car for you, given those parameters. Most buyers of brand new Lexus vehicles own the car for 2 to 5 years. And Lexus owners seldom plan on $7000 repairs as certainties. Your other numbers are just wrong also. Clearly you are creating a worst case scenario.

    For most people, the $3000 premium even coupled with a $2000 worse negotiating deal due to demand, leaves an actual cost over 4 years of around $2500.

    At a very conservative $300 per year fuel savings over 4 years, the average person has to find $1300 worth of value in increased power, greener planet, less time spent at a gas station, and less dependence on middle eastern oil.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Most buyers of brand new Lexus vehicles own the car for 2 to 5 years.

    I don't know about most Lexus owners. My wife bought her LS400 in 1990. It has under 80k miles and still runs great. It gets consistent 19/27 MPG. She has not found a car she likes as well. Changing cars every 2 to 5 years is more polluting than driving an old car with slightly worse emission ratings. In the case of the Lexus, the new LS430 is no better on emissions or mileage.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    A 1990 430 might have the same EPA rating as a new one but surly your not suggesting that a 14 year old vehicle runs as clean as a new one & changing cars every few years is more polluting only if the old one goes to the crusher but gagrice aren't you anti-Toyota yet you own one and say that it still runs great.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm saying if I put you in this LS400 blindfolded you would not be able to tell it from new, other than the new car smell. My wife bought this car before we got married this time. It is not trouble free by any stretch. It just runs and handles great. The fuel gauge(we use the trip odo), rearview mirror and airbag does not work. Lexus wants more than the low blue book to repair those items. Yes Toyota is still a bunch of gangsters in my book. My experience with Toyota is much less delightful. My final straw with Toyota came in 1994 with that piece of crap PU truck. Of course by then I was spoiled by driving Chevy Pickups. I can tell you the 3 Chevy trucks I have owned since 1988 had less trouble all together than that one 1994 Toyota PU.
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    I received this email from Lexus:

    "We'd like to thank all of our Lexus Hybrid Newsletter readers for the insightful
    questions that have been submitted about the Lexus RX 400h and the
    technology behind it. We're in the process of answering these questions and
    we'll be sharing that information with you in upcoming editions of the Lexus
    Hybrid Newsletter. However, we'd like to take this opportunity to answer the
    most frequently asked question of all: "When will the RX 400h be available?"

    We think the best way to answer that is to share the very latest information
    regarding the timing of the Lexus RX 400h launch, as well as some
    enlightening new product information:

    This is an exciting time for hybrid vehicles, with demand and acceptance
    continuing to grow as new products enter the market. We couldn't be more
    thrilled with the reception that the RX 400h has received from the media
    and from informed consumers like you.

    For the last two years, our target launch date for the all-new Lexus RX 400h
    luxury utility vehicle has been late 2004. With the final development stage
    completed and the pre-production phase now beginning, our launch date
    has been more finely focused. We are now looking at early 2005 for the
    official launch.

    The RX 400h's eye-catching exterior is similar to the acclaimed RX 330's,
    while adding style elements such as unique 18-inch wheels, dark chrome
    grille, sporty air intake, round foglamps and jeweled taillamps. The computer-
    controlled powertrain seamlessly blends power from the V6 gasoline engine,
    the electric-drive motors and the generator. In place of the traditional
    tachometer, the RX 400h has an illuminated power meter that displays the
    level of power generated by the gas-electric hybrid powertrain. The driver
    will also be able to monitor the gas-electric power distribution on the
    standard seven-inch touch-panel display screen that comes with the
    navigation system.

    The RX 400h all-wheel-drive hybrid powertrain combines two powerful
    electric-drive motors with the highly efficient 3.3-liter V6 engine found in
    the RX 330 to significantly improve low- to mid-speed acceleration and
    overall fuel efficiency. The system is a full hybrid, meaning that the RX 400h
    is capable of operating in separate gas or electric modes, as well as a mode
    that combines power from both.

    The RX 400h will develop a combined system output of approximately
    270 horsepower (versus 230 horsepower in the RX 330) and deliver
    combined fuel economy equivalent to the current average of a compact
    sedan. Zero-to-sixty acceleration will also improve over the current
    RX 330's sub-eight-second time. The RX 400h will also be rated as a
    Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV), one of the most stringent
    emissions ratings in the industry.

    The RX 400h uses a regenerative braking system to further boost system
    efficiency. When the vehicle is coasting or the brakes are applied, the electric
    motor functions as a generator, capturing kinetic energy in the form of heat
    collected through the braking system. It then converts that energy into usable
    electricity to recharge the hybrid battery.

    In short, the new RX 400h will become the premium model in the RX series,
    offering increased performance, smooth operation, better fuel efficiency and
    a host of high-technology, safety, luxury amenities and comfort features."
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Don't forget the energy and resulting pollution from building a totally new car when computing the net pollution equation. Yes, undoubtedly a new LS430 would be less polluting than a 1990 LS400, but if everyone were to keep their old LSes the total pollution, net, would undoubtedly decrease.

    I was recently told that it takes 5 years for a solar cell located in southern CA to generate enough electricity to equal that used to manufacture it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is exactly correct. And there is a chart that has been posted several times showing the additional pollution that results from building a hybrid car. The batteries and electric motors add considerably to the manufacturing pollution. It takes several years for a net gain in the pollution benefits of a hybrid vs a regular ICE vehicle. That may be why the shortage of batteries. These countries we have polluted for years are rising up and saying enough.
  • wohlfwohlf Member Posts: 14
    It takes several years for a net gain in the pollution benefits of a hybrid vs a regular ICE vehicle. That may be why the shortage of batteries. These countries we have polluted for years are rising up and saying enough.
    ========================
    The first part is wrong and the second is just silly.

    My brother in law is a solar researcher and a brilliant physics engineer. He is very green. He drives a Prius and believes Hybrids are a critical piece of the conservation picture. I trust his opinion.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    does it occur to you that both can be correct, your brother and gagrice? The two statements have NO conflict, if you doubt me then ask the brother-in-law.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The first part is wrong and the second is just silly.

    I think it is time to post this chart again. It clearly shows that the Prius is more of a polluter in the manufacturing than a conventional ICE vehicle. Maybe you would like to explain the NiMH battery shortage that Toyota is experiencing.

    image
  • lexuswannabelexuswannabe Member Posts: 4
    I could be way off the mark with the anticipated cost of replacing battery. It could be anywhere between $2K and $8K, and it could last anywhere between 5 years and 20 years. Nevertheless, the cost of replacing the battery should be taken into account if one decides to purchase the 400h against the 330.
    I don't believe the price difference of $8K is the worst case scenario. My Lexus dealer told me the 400h would cost extra $3K to $5K. I just take the average of $4K.
    From the 330 board, people have been reporting deals with the 04 330 anywhere between $3K and $5K off MSRP. I did receive an offer of ~$4400 off MSRP for a new 04 330, but decide to wait. With the 400h, I bet I would not be able to negotiate a penny off the MSRP coming Spring 05. I bet would have to pay sticker price for it. There goes the other $4K difference.
    Also I do not change car every 2 to 5 years, even if I could if I wanted to. To me, the best way to get the most money out of your car if you can afford it and if you can stand it is to pay cash for your car and drive it to the ground. I cannot stand driving a car to the ground, but for each car I own, I do plan to own it for a period of 10 to 12 years; unless I have so much problems it's driving me crazy. During the (planned) ownership period, you need to calculate your antipated repairs (these are only estimated amount, not with any certainty).
    wohlf, you had mentioned that my other numbers are wrong. I would appreciate if you can be specific about which numbers and how wrong they are.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It seems like getting a price for battery replacement is not that forthcoming. I saw one post of a person with a very high mileage 2001 Prius. He was quoted $6k for a battery replacement. I would be real hesitant to buy non OEM batteries. They are seldom equal to original. With the 150k mile warranty I would feel pretty safe.
  • wohlfwohlf Member Posts: 14
    It takes several years for a net gain in the pollution benefits of a hybrid vs a regular ICE vehicle. That may be why the shortage of batteries.
    ============================
    All goods and services take resources to produce. New technologies are generally produced in a less developed and less refined infrastructure at lower volumes and therefore take proportionally more resources. Also, more complex items take more resources. OK, I get that. But are you saying that that the pollution that is a by-product of production is a primary factor limiting production? If so, I disagree.

    These countries we have polluted for years are rising up and saying enough.
    =============================
    This part about countries rising up and limiting production as revenge... sorry, it still seems silly.

    Why do I think there is a shortage of vehicles? I take Toyota at their word. Demand is outstripping production capability especially at the battery plant.
  • wohlfwohlf Member Posts: 14
    you had mentioned that my other numbers are wrong. I would appreciate if you can be specific about which numbers and how wrong they are.
    ======================
    Wrong was a poor choice of words. Farfetched may be better. Look, if the parameters you set forth are really true and you must own the vehicle for 10 years, and you are positive that you will have a major repair in year 7 or 8, don't buy it.

    Over half of new car buyers lease. I assume that of those that buy, at least half keep the car 5 years or less. Therefore it is probably safe to say that 70% to 80% of new Lexus buyers keep their car for less than 5 years. I expect the average is 3 to 4 years... just a guess.

    My only point is that 400h owners will still have 50% of what they paid for the car in residual value four years later. In other words if they pay $40k they can get $20k four years later when they sell it. If they lease it, they only pay $20k. So the real cost to the average person is half of the price difference between the 330 and the 400h.

    I believe the real price difference will be $4000 to $6000 during the first year. Back out your residual and you are looking at $2000 to $3000. If your recoup $1500 in fuel savings in 4 years, you are paying $500 to $1500 for the other advantages the 400h has. The extra power alone usually costs more. I hope the ecological and patriotic advantages are worth this relatively small cost to most people.

    You say that your real cost difference over the life of the vehicle is $15k. I say for most people it is less than $3k, and they get a lot of value for their money.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    A reporter is interested in speaking with consumers who intend to purchase the Lexus RX 400h, Ford Escape or Honda Accord. If you would like to speak with this reporter about why you’re interested in purchasing one of these vehicles, please contact Jeannine Fallon, Edmunds.com PR Director, at jfallon@edmunds.com. The reporter needs any responses by end-of-day Monday, August 30. Thank you.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Your numbers do not take into account the resale value, which may be reduced if it turns out that hybrids require an expensive battery replacement at 150K. If that expense is known to be required for a used vehicle, people will pay less for the vehicle, knowing they will have an unusual maintenance task coming up...

    Cost and timing of battery replacement is an unknown factor at this point.
  • ptm123ptm123 Member Posts: 15
    At 150K miles on any vehicle you have a lot more to worry than expensive batteries. There is the expensive engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, body, etc. The typical car is not worth much at over 100K miles (just try to trade one in). I would be less worried about battery with no moving parts sitting sealed metal case protected from the environment and which has Toyota states they have to have one fail post warranty (which is much longer than the power train warranty) versus engines, trans., etc. which many moving parts subject wear, vibration, water, salt, dirt, oil, gas, combustion byproducts, potentail lose of lubrication and the other abuses of normal driving.

    I am not saying that a vehicle over 150K cannot be usable, am presently driving a 94 Saab 9000 Aero with 193K. It looks nice, interior still in good shape, ride is good (a few shakes), averages about 27MPG and will still go well over 130MPH, but I am under no illusions it is worth a lot of money.
  • wohlfwohlf Member Posts: 14
    Your numbers do not take into account the resale value, which may be reduced if it turns out that hybrids require an expensive battery replacement at 150K.
    ====================

    Lexus vehicles have an icredibly high reale. The Prius has the highest resale in its size range. A year old vehicle fetches almost sticker! Saying the 400h won't have solid resale is ludicrous. It already does. You can lock in over 50% after 4 years with a Lexus lease.

    The 400h simply will return its price premium in performance and fuel savings and resale value.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    My 1992 LS400 is worth about $60,000.00.

    If I had to replace it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Actually, a 2004 Hyundai Sonata has about the same creature comforts of the 1992 LS400 and only runs about $30,000......(tongue in cheek)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Lexus vehicles have an icredibly high reale. The Prius has the highest resale in its size range. A year old vehicle fetches almost sticker! Saying the 400h won't have solid resale is ludicrous. It already does. You can lock in over 50% after 4 years with a Lexus lease.

    The 400h simply will return its price premium in performance and fuel savings and resale value."

    Whatever the resale value is, if it turns out an expensive battery replacement is required, the resale value will go down.

    Also, a year old Prius doesn't have to factor in battery replacement. It probably still has 130K plus on it's battery warranty.

    The question marks arise when the vehcile gets towards the end of it's battery warranty.
  • rparisrparis Member Posts: 368
    I am told the hybrid RX will be available around March according to Lexus customer service.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I think wwest means that if he had to replace it today with another car, it would have to be a new LS430 or similar car which would run about $60K, therefore his LS400 is worth $60K to him.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My mistake!

    Did not read the bottom sentence!
    "If I had to replace it"
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's what I meant in the post about the Hyundai Sonata - A comparable car TODAY to the *1992* LS400 is a 2004 Hyundai Sonata. As far as creature comforts, technology, etc.

    In other words, a "comparable" car to the 12 year old Lexus LS400 is the new Sonata.....

    The new Lexus LS430 is NOT a comparable car to the 1992 version - it's three or four generations removed and VASTLY superior.

    So to replace his 1992 LS400 with a comparable car would be more like $30,000, not 60K.....

    Laterz..........
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    uhhh...not quite. First the current LS430 is only 2 generations ahead of the 92 LS400.

    90-94 LS: 1st Generation
    95-00 LS: 2nd Generation
    01-current LS: 3rd Generation

    "So to replace his 1992 LS400 with a comparable car would be more like $30,000, not 60K....."

    This is kinda misleading also. A new Hyundai Sonata still isn't as quiet, luxurious, or cushy as a 1992 LS400. Nor does it have the same power or straight line acceleration as a 92 LS400. Also, a 92 LS400 still looks better than a '05 Sonata(IMO). Also, I would think a 92 LS400 is still safer today than a '05 Sonata.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The new Lexus LS430 is NOT a comparable car to the 1992 version - it's three or four generations removed and VASTLY superior

    It may be technologically better than an early 1990s LS400. It is butt ugly and my wife decided to keep her old LS400 for that very reason. She was ready to buy a 2004 LS430 until she got a close look at it....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm with you I will keep the LS400 over what is available today...
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    why the newer LS430 would/could be considered superior to my "full spec" 1992 LS400. The only possible things I can think of is the ML sound system and the GPS/nav for which I cannot justify in both cases.

    At hwy cruise speed with ~70db of white noise, the fidelity of even my Nak system is a waste and the nav system in my 01 RX has proven itself to be fully useless.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Every year you keep and drive that LS400 is money in the bank. I think our 1990 will go another 10 years at least.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    huh...let's see why the new LS430 is superior to your LS400..

    -bigger V8. 290bhp vs. 250bhp.
    -variable valve timing. Fuel economy is improved over yours even though power has increased.
    -cleaner engine.
    -6-speed automatic
    -safety gear(VSC, brakeassist, pre-collision, curtain airbags, knee airbags, HIDs)
    -larger interior/much larger trunk
    -more interior amenities.
    the list goes on.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    for me....

    Bigger V8....I would have settled for a V6.
    VVTi..... and I should care..?
    Cleaner engine....at 90k miles the oil still comes out clean at each oil change..
    6-speed transmision.... And this is an advantage... How?
    Safety gear....Haven't had an accident and don't plan on one...

    HID...you got me there. But there are aftermarket kits (search for hylow and HID) that in my estimation are likely better than OEM anyway.
    Larger interior/much larger trunk....Again, this is an advantage...How?
    More interior amenities....Sorry, don't miss something I've never experienced to begin with.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Bigger V8....I would have settled for a V6."

    You should have just bought a ES250 back then. Better yet, should have just stuck with Camry's or Corolla's if luxury features/amenities aren't something you need.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Fuel economy is improved

    Not according to the EPA for the LS430 18/25mpg. We get consistent 19 in town and 27 on trips. And none of the features you mention help the LS430 in the looks department. It is UGLY! Lexus should have stayed with their original designs instead of trying to compete with the cheap plastic crap that is dominating the auto market. The SC300/400 is still the best looking car Lexus ever built. People will hang on to them rather than trade to an uglier version just to have a new car.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "Luxury features/amenities aren't something you need..."

    I would say "want" rather than "need" but....

    Just what have I said that implies that??

    I traded my 2000 AWD RX300 in for an 01 AWD RX300 because I "wanted" HID and VSC. Actually at my age HID is probably more of a need and I figure VSC will be invaluable in an SUV.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I traded my 2000 AWD RX300 in for an 01 AWD RX300 because I "wanted" HID and VSC

    Would you have bought the new RX300 if they changed the style and you thought it was not as attractive?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    My wife will not let me buy an RX330 because she says it is ugly. Personally I would like to have an RX330 without the VC and with air suspension.

    On AFS I think it is actually detrimental.

    But....
  • jfzjfz Member Posts: 45
    WWest has a good point about air suspension. I would really like to see a suspension option that would lower the ride heighth by at least 2". I think the look,ingress/egress, and handling would be better.

    On WWest's preferrence for the first generation RX and LS, his view is the reason for the high re-sale values that all Lexus owners enjoy.

    My own observation on the loaner 2004 RX330 is a disappointment in the engine and exhaust noise. Both are significantly higher than my T&C van, and my son's 2004 Honda Accord.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I adjusted the height sensors on my 92 LS400 to lower it about an inch.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right I would have bought the 500SL, 850i or SC400. I believe the SC400 is the best of the three. My wife is a firm 4 door person and it was her Money... The point is we went about 8 months ago to look for a new Lexus replacement. She walked past every vehicle in the showroom and the lot and said not a one was anything she would drive. Take into consideration the 1990 LS400 has less than 80k miles, always in the garage. It gets consistent 19/27 mpg. Even the paint looks new on it. We did test drive a MB E320 and she liked it. She felt it was a bit cramped compared to the LS400. No good reason to buy a new car. That is why I keep my 1999 Suburban. I have owned it longer than any vehicle in 30 years. I don't like the looks of the new ones. It only has 46k miles on it after 6 years, why waste the money.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The LS430 isn't so significantly "improved" as to justify dumping my 92 (with which I am still very pleased) and ~$65,000.00.

    And didn't I already acknowledge the HID?

    Having VSC on a FWD SUV is an absolute necessity.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Actually I should admit that I would have already purchased an LS430 if I could have gotten one in Burgandy and Ivory with air suspension. I would have even accepted the (useless) ML & (even more useless) Nav as options if necessary. At one point I was tempted to establish a "residence" in Canada so I could get the one I desired and with an electrically heated windshield to boot.

    IMMHO Ecru/white interiors are reserved for blue hair LOLITS driving across Florida hogging the left lane.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I would not, typcially, drive the LS during the winter months, whereas I would/do the RX300. Obviously VSC is more desireable during the winter and since the AWD RX300 is really front torque biased and FWD vehicles can become unstable so very quickly on a slippery roadbed....

    Yes, granted, there are improvements in the new LS430. But there are some very basic reasons why we buy luxury cars and not plain jane transportation. It comes down to need vs want and what I can afford.

    The bottom line, frankly, is that if Lexus isn't going to play my game (build the car I want) I'll simply take my baseball bat (money) and go home.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Having zero miles on the odometer and that new new car smell is enough improvement for many of us. Come to think about it if someone could sell be a brand new 92 at the 92 price I would probably buy that over the new LS430.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm curious, why would anyone buy a FWD RX300 or any SUV if they were going to use it where AWD or 4X4 is needed for snow or ice? I fell out of love with the front wheel drive vehicles in 1973 when I bought a new Subaru. Horrible on ice and worthless in snow over 4 inches. My VW Bug outperformed it. Then stupidly I bought a 1978 Honda Accord that was just as squirrely on ice and snow. If I can't afford 4X4 I'll take rear wheel drive any day of the week for ice & snow. The only front wheel drive car I ever liked was a Saab 9000. You remember the DEC PDP8 & Nova? I worked on a lot of them in the early 1970s
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Isn't 4x4 preferable for snow & ice ? FWD better than RWD ? Was born in Ohio and remember tring to get up a slippery driveway with a rear driver, FWD would have been better, PDP-8 11 Nova have read about, did you do hardware or software ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can tell you that I lived at the top of a bad hill in Anchorage for several years. The VW Bug, 1970 Datsun Pickup and the 1974 Dodge Van all climbed through the deep snow and glare ice better than the 1973 Subaru FWD car. It would start bouncing in 3 inches of snow and pop out of gear. I was into the dealer so many times with that car and never a fix for that problem. Then I moved to Minnesota and thought the Subaru was a poor adaptation of front wheel drive and bought a Honda Accord. It was better in snow but very squirrely on ice, not as predictable as rear wheel drive. Soon after I just started buying full size PU trucks with 4X4 and have not had a problem on ice or snow since.
    I was involved in PDP-8/11 hardware tied to Telco equipment. That was a long time ago.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Starts out with a definite advantage as the engine weight gives the front wheels/tires more traction. But then things oftentimes turn about fairly quickly when you discover that what you really need is the front wheels/tires DEDICATED to directional control and the rear DEDICATED to driving and/or engine braking.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    In 1969 I left Boeing and went to work for Data General. Mostly I was a hardware guru but the company my wife and I founded in 74("") has more software engineers than hardware. Currently "second" source for Nova, 16 bit eclipse, PDP-11 of all flavors, and HP-1000.

    Next?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    In the early seventies I sold, installed, and maintained a Nova basic timesharing system at the Naval Artic Research Lab. for the U of A Fairbanks. Flights on Wein Air to Barrow via Dead Horse /prudhole bay were THRILLING.....
Sign In or Register to comment.