Lexus RX 400h and 450h

Kirstie_H

Please stick to the vehicle and steer away from politics. Further posts along that line will be deleted. Thanks.

stevedebi

Where were the politics? Isn't delivery schedule part of the vehicle? Just trying to get some clarification here...

mfullmer

I think the host was referring to pure political commentary. My view is, leave your political views on your rear bumper and not in an automotive chat room.

markrogo

... of this delay anywhere. No evidence at all the product is canceled -- in fact, direct evidence to the contrary.

I have one on order and would really like it in January -- when my lease ends on another vehicle.

Can anyone tell me what's really going on here?

usbseawolf2000

"Can anyone tell me what's really going on here? "

Lexus will not take any short cuts. Lexus announced that 400h 4WD-i is going to power the rear wheels with 50kW electric motor. Unlike Ford Escape, 400h will not have heavy, space intrusive, energy wasteful rear drive shaft. Instead, 400h will use electricity from the battery pack(also in the back) to achieve four wheel drive.

There will be no compromise. That also means no compromise in towing as well! 400h will have ability to tow 3,000 lbs.

There are other speculation such as unexpected demand for Prius caused the delay since the battery modules used are the same prismatic type.

Dennis

hongcho

With the current shortage of Prius, I am wondering if there is any shortage of other hybrid components (e.g., batteries and motor components), in combination of possible issues with achieving the performance goal.

Since Toyota/Lexus is not saying anything (officially, the dealers don't count), we can't know that for sure, though.

Hong.

gagrice

Maybe they will give you an RX330 if they can't deliver by Jan 2005. I would definetly have a backup plan if your lease is up in January. None of these hybrids are coming out on schedule. It looks as though they will be in very limited numbers for some time to come. If you are first on your dealers list I would say you have a shot at one, unless they slip your place to a buddy.

mcats

In response to the person who said that hybrids have little mpg benefit (for SUVS and more specifically the Escape)...

The 4wd system of the Ford Escape Hybrid requires the use of the gas engine... when you are offroading, there cannot be a "stealth" mode due to the nature of Ford's current hybrid system. Hence the fuel economy figures drop rather dramatically when offroading. As for driving a hybrid aggressively, in my '04 Prius I drive faster than the traffic (70+ mph on the highway) and still average above 53 mpg. Driving a little slower, yet still faster than the flow of traffic, I can get about 56-57 mpg. If I drove the speed limit in my daily commute my Prius is capable of 60 mpg... and if I really wanted to push it I could get it higher than that. One guy got 85.7 mpg over a whole tank in his Prius by driving about 30-40 mph (took longer routes) on his way to a vacation spot.

stevedebi

Well, since I posted the original, I thought I'd respond.

BTW, congratulations on your MPG, which many people have reported. Other people have been unable to get over 45MPG, some even lower. The "aggressive" driving is not speed, it is acceleration. Try running your Prius with jack-rabbit starts and see what your MPG does... yet this is the standard mode of operation for most American drivers (at least here in California).

Of course, your mileage figures for the Prius do not apply to the Escape Hybrid - my point is that physics cannot be beaten, and the Escape, unlike the Prius, is not custom designed for lower wind resistance & etc. Also, the larger engine in the Escape will use more gas at any speed (when the ICE is engaged). To get truly impressive MPG, you need a lighter and smaller vehicle.

Also, the Ford implementation does have electric only at low speed, but I suspect the battery doesn't last long. So it doesn't help on off road. For people who off road a lot, the hybrid is a poor choice. But then most people only off-road every now and then...

toycash

I think the delay in the 400h and the Highlander is because they want to be able to produce plenty of them when they start production. They probably want to avoid the long waiting lists that the Prius has.

gagrice

I personally think they are having supplier problems, with the hybrid only parts. Also I think they are worried the big hybrids won't deliver a significant increase in MPG. It needs to be at least 25% better to seduce the public to pay the huge premium. If the larger hybrids deliver the same percentage increase of the Prius, you will have a 5 year wait to get one.

robertsmx

It is easier to justify added cost in larger and more expensive vehicles than it is in lower priced cars. Most of the time, $2-3K or whatever it might cost to add electric power, would be comparable to an options package or two in the very same car. OTOH, $2-3K in a $15-18K car sounds like a bigger deal.

Regarding improvements, while and improvement from 16 mpg to 22 mpg may not sound huge, in terms of percentage, it is still about 40% better! If Accord Hybrid gets its expected 32 mpg in city, it appears like "only 11 mpg improvement" but 50% improvement over Accord V6 if that car gets its expected 21 mpg in city.

gagrice

It should be easy to get the improvements in an Accord. It is only slightly larger than the Prius. That is proven to be effective. I am thinking about the larger SUV type vehicles. If they improve as much as the Prius, is an improvement over the same size ICE only vehicle. I would say a 5 grand hit will not slow sales at all. If it is only 4-5 mpg mixed better than the current SUV's it will be a much harder sell.

rfruth

SUV hybrids should sell real well partially because it will be easier to mask the extra cost and for some reason people are thoroughly convinced they need a SUV. Yet they really want to do their part, offer them a hybrid for only a few extra grand and in their eyes they can have their cake and eat it to.

wwest

The RX330 is already priced at the top of the bracket and you might notice that if you want to add more than one of the "desireable" option packages that makes it well beyond reasonable bracket pricing.

How many of Prius sales are of the "botique" type? Bought because the owner wants to be seen, or see themselves, as "green". If the RX400h doesn't come to market with a substandual MPG advantage to overcome the existing SUV "stigma" for these purchasers, then NO SALE!

robertsmx

My point was that saying 5-6 mpg improvement isn't a big deal isn't enough, and doesn't provide a good picture. A 5 mpg improvement on regular Civic in city is just 15% improvement, but in a truck that gets 15 mpg in city, that would be a 33% improvement.

scheuk

A Toyota luxury hybrid van is already on sale in Asia. I hope they will ship this to North America.
http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_alphard_hybrid.htm
Minor modifications need to be made. The steering column is on the right side.

gagrice

It looks good from the picture. If it get 35-40 mpg mixed it would be a winner. Here is another picture of it. If I could read Spanish I could tell if it is being sold in Mexico.

http://www.terra.com.mx/general/historico/formatos/formato2.asp?a- rticuloid=119055&paginaid=1

stevedebi

Here is a better description:
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2003/August-2003/August-2003-- - - - 1/August-06-03-p1.htm

The article indicates it is almost 4000lbs, gets 40.5 MPG in the Japan 10-15 cycle (whatever that is), and generates 15000 watts of power (even has an outlet for appliances).

It also lists for U.S. $40,000 in Japan.

However, note that this is a minivan, not an SUV. The point being that it doesn't have that SUV penalty of high frontal area. However it would appear to demonstrate that the possibility exists to get heavier hybrids to work - "heavier" being the size of the Ford Explorer, but probably not larger (heavier).

The thing is loaded with options. I'm sure they could sell it here, if it could pass US regulations, though the price is still high.

Hmmm, makes me wonder if someone can't make a more aerodynamic SUV. However, did anyone ever notice that if you smoothed out the front lines of an SUV it would look like ... a minivan!

wohlf

Some points:

1. It is not how many extra MPGs a hybrid delivers, it is the percentage increase. The percentage increase directly correlates to the percentage decrease in money spent at the pump. If one hybrid (Prius) increases from 30 MPG to 45 and another (400h) increases from 20 MPG to 30; both car owners will spend 33% less on gasoline. Interestingly, if both owners drove the same amount, it would obviously be the 400h owner that saved the most money.

2. The people suggesting that hybrid technology is more appropriate for small cars are wrong. A heavier vehicle will necessarily make better use of regenerative braking provided power. Also, $3000-$4000 is less significant to a more expensive vehicle.

3. The additional cost of a Hybrid is not just offset by savings at the pump. There is better performance, better resale value, less dependence on foreign oil, and a cleaner planet for our kids.

4. Even avid 4 wheelers spend a tiny portion of their time in 4 wheel low. the fact that the hybrid system in the Escape is not very useful off road is meaningless.

5. The delay in the 400h is not a design/engineering problem, it is a supply problem. The Prius is doing incredibly well. The battery supplier simply needed extra time to meet the demand of a new platform.

wwest

The Prius does not use engine compression braking unless the driver intentionally selects that mode.

What it does do, if the batteries are in need of recharging, is simulate engine compression braking by using the regeneration system to recharge the batteries. Obviously that would reduce the distance, or speed, one might otherwise "coast". Also obvious, if the batteries become SERIOUSLY in need of recharging during a long cruise then extra petro is fed to the ICE to provide that capability.

If one could somehow "tell" the system to operate in "cruise", Hwy, mode and thereby eliminate use of the battery super-charging effect altogether the hwy mileage would likely increase dramatically

"heavier vehicles will make better use of regenerative braking provided power..."

Is this an odd way of saying that a heavier vehicle will be able to generate more regenerative power via the braking effect?

Or are you saying that 1 watt of regenerated power on the Prius is equivalent 1.2 watts for a 20% heavier vehicle?

john1701a

> Obviously that would reduce the distance, or speed, one might otherwise "coast".

Not true. Regeneration like that only happens if you completely remove your foot from the accelerator-pedal.

If you leave it on, you can coast... exactly what you claim isn't possible.

> if the batteries become SERIOUSLY in need of recharging during a long cruise then extra petro is fed to the ICE to provide that capability

That statement is incorrect and quite misleading.

Electricity generation takes place 100% (yes, 100 PERCENT) of the time the engine is providing thrust to the wheel. It is an inherent part of the HSD design.

> thereby eliminate use of the battery

Clearly, the implementation HSD is not understood here. A/C, lights, the fan, and a few other components are powered by that on-the-fly generated power. Eliminating that would cause an efficiency loss, not a gain, since you'd have to switch back to the traditional method of power instead.

JOHN

wohlf

Is this an odd way of saying that a heavier vehicle will be able to generate more regenerative power via the braking effect?

Or are you saying that 1 watt of regenerated power on the Prius is equivalent 1.2 watts for a 20% heavier vehicle?

=====

The former plus a little extra. Because the vehicle is heavier, it is able to both create and use electricity more quickly. This translate to more opportunity for the system to help the ICE. A real life situation where one might see a difference is stop and go freeway rush hour driving.

lenscap

Move from December to February confirmed by Lexus:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-08-02-hybrid_x.htm

andyux2

Just got back from Lexus's very nice presentation, "Taste of Luxury." It is a movable showcase of Lexus models with comparative vehicles,e.g., BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar. Nice set-up with accompanying luxury "lifestyle" displays of gourmet cooking demonstrations, great buffet (breakfast or lunch), golf tips, hotel/resort info. Very cool. They had a separate "building" for the RX 400h with the prototype we've all seen at auto shows and in periodicals. They said the 400h will be available spring 2005, no official MPG yet although 30 is the target number (they weren't clear about whether this was city or highway). The expected price is $3 - 4K over the RX 330 MSRP. The rep said that since the listed base MSRP for the 330 was $36,000 she expected the 400h to be $40 - 41,000 (Ha Ha!) No colors, options available at this time but will "probably" be similar to the 330. Regarding the interior trim, Lexus has been getting feedback about the techno look and will probably have the wood trim available down the line but for now they're trying to reconcile the "green" message of low emissions with cutting down trees for the trim. Go to this Lexus demonstration if you can. No sales people, you can drive any car you want, it's free and just one class act.

cbest1465

I am waiting for this event to arrive in my area. Were you able to actually sit in the 400h or did they have the velvet ropes around it?

I have been to these events before and highly recommend everyone to go - it's worth it - just for the comparsion of vehicles.

andyux2

No velvet ropes but no open doors. You can walk right up to the 400h, touch it and look inside though. The hood is up so you can peer into the engine compartment. It's a nice opportunity to get up close because they limit the number of people who can go through, and you can spend as much or as little time as you want, go away and then come back. Go to: http://usalexus.programhq.com/ACTIVITY/ASPX/LEXTOL/Lexus.ASPX for more information.

msu79gt82

Assuming one drives 15K miles per year and the gas version averages 20mpg then one burns 750 gallons of gas per year. IF the hybrid increases mileage 50% to 30mpg then one burns 500 gallons per year. At an average cost of $2 per gallon (Premuim for the RX) one saves ~ $500 per year with the hybrid.

IF that hybrid cost $2000 to $3000 more than the gas version then it takes 4-6 years to reach payout; NOT counting the time value of money. Unless the RX400h is LESS than $2000 more than the RX330 and/or the mpg increases MORE than 50% then the hybrid does NOT make financial sense.

Frankly I expect an ~$3000 difference and only about 25% average mpg improvement, thus one will never reach payout under these conditions.

maxhonda99

I don't think for most hybrid buyers it's simply about recouping costs financially in 3, 4, 6 or 10 years. I think most people actually buy them because they want to be *green* so to so and help the environment.

It's ridiculous to even look at the financial aspect of hybrids today because the initial outlay of additional cash will more than likely not be recouped in decreased gas expenditures if you count in the potential for hybrid system upkeep.

john1701a

> It's ridiculous to even look at the financial aspect of hybrids today

In several respects...

Saving a few dollars on a Lexus is totally a non-issue. People don't buy luxury vehicles with low operating costs in mind.

HSD is currently only available in a specialized vehicle, Prius which offers lots of high-tech goodies. Until it becomes available in "normal" vehicles, like Camry & Sienna with features no different from traditional vehicles, direct comparisons don't make sense.

And of course, high-volume production of HSD has yet to begin. So prices are still at a premium. They will go down as the quantities increase.

JOHN

stevedebi

"Until it becomes available in "normal" vehicles, like Camry & Sienna with features no different from traditional vehicles, direct comparisons don't make sense."

The question is, whill Toyota make it an engine option, or only offer it on higher trim lines?

robertsmx

One could raise pretty much the same argument against diesel engines. Passat 1.8T costs $3K less than Passat 2.0 TDI. In fact, I mentioned a potential comparison of Passat TDI and Accord Hybrid as they would be very close in terms of initial cost and potentially could deliver very similar mileage as well (Passat Diesel is rated 27/38 mpg, the Accord Hybrid is expected to be rated at 32/38 mpg). Passat gets you 134 HP/247 lb.-ft, the Accord Hybrid should get about 255 HP/250-260 lb.-ft.

Going back to RX400h. If Lexus were to offer a V8 in the RX, how much would that add to the cost? $4-5K? And what do you get in return? More power, at the expense of emissions and gas mileage. With hybrid, RX could get more power while improving upon emissions and improving upon the gas mileage! Financial advantage isn’t the end of hybrid technology. At least with hybrid you could hope to recuperate the added cost back. What with a V8?

boomsama

just wondering did they have the '06 GS there at the taste of luxury?

oman9

Here's another angle regarding going hybrid. Your analysis may be correct, I've thought the same thing re: how much more (the premium) you pay for a hybrid vs. gas savings. If it about equals out, heck even if it's a bit more within reason, it still sounds better to me to pay the premium to Toyota Motor Co. in Japan versus buying extra gas over the life of the vehicle and sending that $ over to the Middle East and potentially putting that $ into hands which wish to do us harm. Just something to think about....

motownusa

Excellent point. Unfortunately, too many Americans are addicted to gas guzzling PU and SUVs. Hence, more and more of our money is going to the Middle East and sometimes to people who want to cause us harm. The fact is, the US still imports 60% of its oil which puts us at the mercy of foreign countries, many of whom don't have our best interest in their mind.

lenscap

"Saving a few dollars on a Lexus is totally a non-issue. People don't buy luxury vehicles with low operating costs in mind."

I totally disagree. One of the reasons several people I know, including myself (I'm on my second Lexus), bought a Lexus was because it is cheaper to operate than a comparable BMW or Mercedes (not to mention cheaper to buy in many cases). Obviously that was not the only reason to buy, but it did play a part.

Everybody may not use this as a reason to buy a Lexus, but check on the high end board and you'll see many Lexus owners do.

msu79gt82

john1701a wrote: "Saving a few dollars on a Lexus is totally a non-issue. People don't buy luxury vehicles with low operating costs in mind."

I hope I never become that arrogant. I am ALWAYS interested in the best financial decision for my family. Reminds me of the old Midas Muffler commercial where a rich old gezer drives up in his 50+ year old Rolls Royce wanting to capitalize on the lifetime warranty. The young sales guy (just like john1701a here) could not understand why the rich guy would bother. The wise old man answered, "How do you think a rich man like me got to be rich!"

Sylvia

Just a reminder to agree to disagree without personal attacks. Thanks.

stevedebi

I'm pretty sure he was saying that the idea of wasting money because one was rich was arrogant, not referring to John himself... or so I choose to interpret it, on a second reading.

Sylvia

ah - maybe I'm just jaded. ;-)

msu79gt82

... no offense was intended. However I did intend to point out that to many people (particularly yours truly) the financial aspect of a transaction is always a consideration. I do not buy into the old adage that if you have to ask how much it costs you cannot afford it.

Also is was my intention to point out that one should not buy any hybrid vehicle (at least not yet) solely under the expectation of saving money via the gas pump.

wohlf

The resale value of the Prius is exceptionally high... certainly this is tied to high demand and low supply. The resale value of the RX330 is also very high... over 50% for 4 years. The residual on a 4year lease on a 400h is about 50%. Therefore we do not need to recoup the $3000 hybrid premium in savings and benefits, we need to save $1500. Even for those who discount to $0 the benefits of lower emissions and reduced dependence on middle eastern oil, the hybrid upgrade probably makes sense.

Premium brands often have a premium engine upgrade, usually from a V6 to a V8. This usually costs at least $3000. The 400h offers torque and HP advantages in line with a V8 upgrade. The fact that it does this with a fuel efficiency advantage is a unique bonus. So for some people, the performance alone is worth the price.

If the cost of the hybrid over 4 years is $1500, will most people find that the performance value and the fuel savings over 4 years exceeds $1500? I would think so. Throw in the altruistic global benefits and it is easily worth a $3000 sticker price increase.

lexuswannabe

I suspect that the real price increase is more than $3K-$4K. My guess is that we will not be to negotiate $3K-4K off the MSRP like we can with the 330. More than likely we will have to pay the sticker price for the 400h, at least for the first few years.
Also I'm guessing that after seven or eight years we will need to replace the battery at a cost of ~$7K.
If we keep the car for eight years or more (which I intend to), the actual price increase over the 330 could be as much as $15K.
This doesn't mean that the 400h is not worth it. It may actually be worth every penny (like any other Lexus, at least that what I think up to now). I love dearly everything I heard about the 400h, but the real price increase is still a very big factor in guiding my decision between the 330 and the 400h. The increase in resale value does not mean a whole lot to me since I may plan keep the car for a very long time, probably passing it on to my kid.
Regarding better performance, faster and more power is a nice thing to have; but to me the performance increase over the 330 does not weigh that much, since the 330 already has ample power for a car that size.
Gas saving is not that important to my decision also. I did a rough calculation as follow:
Potential saving on gas for RX400h vs. RX330:
Assumption:
RX330: 20 city, 26 Hwy
RX400: 36 City, 30 Hwy
Cost of a gallon of gas: $2.00

I drive 20,000 miles per year, 80% hwy, 20% city.

1. On RX330:
16,000 / 26 = 616 gallons
4000 / 20 = 200 gallons
Total: 816 gallon * 2 = $1,632/year

2. On RX400h:
16,000 / 30 = 533 gallons
4,000 / 36 = 111 gallons
Total: 644 gallons * 2 = $1,288/year

Total saving: $344 per year.

3. Cost different:
$4000 not discount from MSRP for RX400h and $4,000 premium for RX400h.
Total $8,000 difference.
Number of year to recoupe the investment: 8000 / 344 = 23 year!!!

Eventhough I plan to keep this car for a very long time, I'll be lucky if I keep it half this long. This mean that I will NEVER recoup the initial investment as far as gas saving is concerned.

This does not even take into account the battery cost (about $7,000) of the RX400h
that needs to be replaced after seven year (manufactory warranty for battery last 7 years).

I might end up buying a 400h (I'm number 7 on the waiting list at my local Lexus dealer, have my name added since late March 04) not because of gas saving or performance, but probably because it's a high tech car, a cool car, a green car, and more importantly, less dependent on foreign oil supply. I'm still debating whether or not all of this worth the extra ~$15K out of my pocket.

robertsmx

A greater initial cost difference (MSRP or greater for 400h versus under MSRP for 330) will be true if 400h gets the attention of the buyers more than 330 based on its virtues, if people are willing to pay for it. If they do, it is a winning situation for the hybrid. And if they don’t, then this initial cost difference argument fades away.

Batteries are supposed to last for more than eight years (I assume they are covered under warranty for that period). I doubt anybody knows the true replacement costs for batteries yet, but I see bloated numbers being tossed around more often than not. How can a battery pack cost $7K while hybridizing the vehicle costs only $3K? Battery pack isn’t an option when you buy it. Automakers will have to ensure that replacement costs aren’t outrageous enough to alienate its customers, i.e. if they plan on continuing business with them.

Now, you bring up a point about added power/torque not being useful to you, and that since most of your driving doesn’t involve city, you may really not have much to gain from a hybrid vehicle like 400h. Perhaps Lexus should consider using a four-cylinder engine w/HSD as a lower end option for better fuel economy and performance comparable to that of 330 instead of targeting V8 power with a four cylinder midsize sedan economy on highway (and better than economy car fuel economy in city).

The same would apply to Accord Hybrid.

pearl

I visited my local Lexus dealer last weekend to look at the 330. I asked the salesman when they expected to receive the 400h and an estimate on the MSRP. His answer was "spring 05" with MSRP in the "low fifties". Currently, well equipped 04 330's have MSRP's in the low 40's, so if he is correct, this sounds more like a 10K increase than a 3-4K increase. Whatever....

robertsmx

The last place I would find out price of anything would be a sales person. Wait for official announcement, and go from there.

gagrice

How can a battery pack cost $7K while hybridizing the vehicle costs only $3K?

I doubt seriously that Toyota is making the hybrid RX400 for only $3k more than the RX330. The first Prius cost Toyota $35,000 and they were sold at $20k. It all has to do with PR and getting their mileage numbers higher. I have not seen any evidence that the Prius is in the black yet, only speculation. One Prius owner posted that his dealer shows the battery pack price in the parts list at $6700. I don't know, but would not doubt that figure.

kenworthy

Lets say the battery lasts only 7 years. Can the car run without it and you just miss out on the higher gas mileage?

Also, I am currently 16th in line for a Highlander Hybrid. Has anyone heard if they will release them at the same time since they are pushing back the release date for the 400h?

robertsmx

I would. And nobody does PR for the sake of doing it, and lose money. At the moment, I can see Honda selling FCX solely for PR purpose, and even if they lose money on it, they are planning to move only about 30 units over six years in Japan and the USA. Is Toyota making money on Prius? Is Honda making money on Civic Hybrid? I would bet on both. Wouldn’t you?

When an automaker launches a vehicle, positive returns don’t show up immediately. It can take a few months, even for a redesign. Honda mentioned S2000 as profitable after six months. Why do you think that happened? The answer would be… initial costs.

Civic Hybrid has an MSRP that is $2400 more than Civic EX. How much do you think comes from the battery pack?

robertsmx

I don't know about how a battery/electric motor failure could affect in Toyota's design, but in case of Honda, the gasoline engine will propel the car.