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What type of hybrid should I buy?
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Hybrid racing has two objectives. They are to cross the finishing line first and to achieve highest MPG. Therefore, tuning the car needs a lot more balancing factors involve.
___They may have two objectives but completely missed the target on both counts with the racing Prius. Maybe 30 mpg tops with the hopped up Echo engine vis-à-vis detuned Echo engine in the $20,500 - $26,000 stock 04 Prius and most comparable PZEV’s available would kick the 04 Racing Prius into next week without a single mod and at cost of just 1/3 to ½ the amount spent on any other number of Hybrid’s.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___In the case of the 04 Prius, the rear view is atrocious and the seating position and arrangement to the steering wheel may not be the most comfortable. You can see some of this discussion in one of the Priusonline forums for more details on seating position in particular.
___The gas tank capacity issue just means you won’t get the range and you will be filling up at the station more then that was promised by Toyota so many months ago.
___The Insight hatchback also has a poor rear view w/ its hatchback form factor. The HCH sedans seem to be fairly reliable with a std. looking automobile from every aspect except for performance that I have read about.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
> cycle. The EPA has no way to account for a fully charged pack
> at the beginning of the cycle and the pack not being fully charged
> at the end.
When people are informed that going from "drained" to "full" only takes a few minutes and has very little impact on overall MPG, that claim is meaningless.
There's a 3 mile stretch that I drive routinely. It is a 35 MPH road that connects one highway to another, providing an appealing shortcut for many. I can drive pretty much the entire length using only electricity. When I merge onto the second highway, the battery-pack charge-level is at the point where it desire recharging. So engine RPM is increased. That provides so much electricity, the battery-pack isn't drawn from at all. Instead, it is charged. After just 3 minutes of cruising at 60 MPH, the battery-pack is already topped-off. And I know this for a fact, since I leave the highway at that point... where I resume electric-only driving.
The fact that charge-level is recovered so rapidly is very handy. The fact that recovery has very little impact on MPG is fantastic.
JOHN
With Toyota Motor Corp. being the current leader in hybrid technology, I do hope they come out with a hybrid Scion tC - yes, a tC. That's just my opinion, though. Power, sportiness, even better MPG. :-D
Photos and some details at:
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/100643/page009.htm- l
http://www.autoworld.com.my/EMZine/Review/viewarticle.asp?awRevie- wID=1536&awCatID=RT.ATC.CAR.FT
Dennis
Remember, ECVT is very efficient and it is also a contributor for the extra MPG compared to an automatic or a manual tranny.
The battery run-down issues and other issues that TRD reported can be addressed by reprogramming the central computer that manages six other processors. This just means the next Toyota Hybrid Sports car will not face the same conditions.
In short, I can safely say Prius track is the beta version of the up coming Toyota/Lexus performance hybrid! I am glad that TRD begun working on the performance tuned hybrid.
Dennis
Dennis
If one wants a small hybrid, the two types have similar performance. One is a classic design, the other a new design. I suppose a person will have a favorite implementation, but for most people it is a wash.
Once more hybrids come out (Highlander, Lexus, Accord), there may be more discussion, but such discussion might as well be "larger car or small car".
Perhaps a "Toyota vs. Honda" hybrid topic title would be appropriate for a Prius forum?
Not to be critical or anything, I know you are seeking a good forum topic.
___Whoever is using my name in post #76 on page 5 is not me and most certainly shouldn’t. Mod, can you do something about it? I bet it’s that Prisumacho or whatever his nick was again?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Anything within a year makes sense.
That is how most budgets & taxes are managed. That is certainly how vacation time is managed. Heck, it is even how the models of vehicles themselves are managed.
JOHN
Insight: Good choice for long highway commutes, if you don't mind its shortcomings. Makes financial sense only if purchased used, compared to other subcompacts.
Civic: Good choice if you want a hybrid that looks and operates like a non-hybrid, and has all the other values of a Civic. Compared to other compacts, including other Civics, makes financial sense only if purchased used.
Prius: Good choice if you want a midsized hatchback that has the highest fuel economy and lowest emissions in its class, and you don't mind that it looks and operates a little differently from a normal car and does not have class-leading performance. Can make financial sense when compared to other midsized cars, but not when compared to compacts.
You appear to make my point well.
Then what is the purpose of this topic - since these two technologies are the only ones available to buy?
The topic is "What type of Hybrid should I buy?"
The future hybrids look promising, but since none of them are available yet even to the journalists that's still pretty far into the future. If I wrecked my car today, I wouldn't replace it with a hybrid...
Backy-
As far as your comment:
Subaru showed off the B9 Scrambler at the Tokyo Auto Show. It's supposed to be able to run up to 50 mph on its 134-hp electric motor, and it has a 135 hp 2.0L boxer gas engine for power assist, highway cruising, and charging. All-wheel drive of course. No word on performance, but a small car with 269 hp on tap has got to be pretty fast.
It would only have 269 hp if both the engine and the motor hit peak horsepower at the same time. I find that unlikely.
It is possible depending on the design. Horsepower is a function of torque and RPM. HP = torque x RPM / 5252.
If you have ICE and electric motor RPM 1:1 ratio, it won't be possible. Electric motor like the one in Prius max out it's HP at about 1,200 RPM. Otto cycle ICE top it's max HP at around 6,000 RPM. If ICE:Motor ratio is 5:1, both max horsepower can reach at the same time.
Dennis
The problem is that if you do this, you either lose the low down torque that the electric motor gives you or the gas engine redlines at a really low speeds. Or you add a second transmission between the motor and the transmission...
There is no need in HSD implementation. MG2:ICE ratio depends on the RPM of MG1.
Dennis
Back on topic...
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/29/a01-106310.htm
Scroll to the bottom and there are some interesting figures on 2003 registrations and the locations (cities) where hybrids are popular.
All of this "green" performance may be had for only $85,000 as a mostly assembled kit car (presumably to circumvent manufacturer vehicle certifications). What more could the well-heeled, ecologically conscientious urban driver ask? A high performance hybrid without the stigma of economic rationale that can park in about the space of a "full dressed" cruising bike. And it even comes equipped with a trailer hitch (eat your heart out Prius owners :-) ).
It isn't actually green unless the external energy source feeding it is too.
> it even comes equipped with a trailer hitch
> (eat your heart out Prius owners :-) ).
Installing the aftermarket hitch for Prius isn't hat big of a deal.
JOHN
“We got more like 37 miles per gallon, but we’re in cold weather and that tends to affect it,” said Willard West, a business owner in Seattle who owns a 2002 Prius. “And on a trip to Portland, we had to recharge the battery four times. I guess you could say we’re not pleased with it.”
What do you mean, you had to recharge the battery 4 times? You mean charged it with external equipment?
It is for carrying stuff, like bikes.
JOHN
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That particular car had a dead 12-volt battery, damaged from deep-discharge events. So naturally, it couldn't hold much of a charge afterward. (There was too much corrosion build-up on the lead plates inside.)
Anywho, that was a common problem in ages past caused by uninformed salepeople. They'd startup the accessories over and over again to provide a demo for people without ever firing up the engine. The repetitive practice without charging each time caused the damage.
A new 12-volt is all that was needed for a fix.
JOHN
Glad most of the crew made it over!
I assume the question is asked which should I buy today, and not in some foretold future.
My HCH replaced an aging '94 Dodge spirit with 160KM that got max 23MPG.
I bought my Honda Civic Hybrid in January and it out accelerates, out handles and out performs my old car and gets almost triple the mileage.
If you are looking to buy a Hybrid today then you can choose a:
Honda Insight
Limited to 2 passengers and cargo this car makes up in potential MPG.
The shape of the Insight rather non traditional and people can plainly see that it is something special.
Readily available at your Honda dealer. (At least what I've seen)
Power drivers like xcel have learned how to get the best out of this car, about 100MPG.
(100MPG is no typo)
Honda Civic Hybrid
The HCH is Honda's 2nd hybrid, put into the traditional Civic frame. This is a normal looking, 5 passenger car. I've achieved +62 MPG (Avg 56.8 MPG per tank) it also offers substantially more features than it's twin the Civic EX.
Compared to its rival ICE cars of Focus, Echo, etc Honda really loaded this beautiful car to show off its newest Hybrid. Quality is excellent.
The Assist system used in the HCH is similar but more advanced than Insight, so your driving habits directly reflect your MPG.
Honda Civic Hybrid is available now.
Toyota Prius
If ecology is your concern then Prius may be your ticket. Prius also is a proven dependable design and a good choice for a family car.
Cornering on the specially designed chassis is
said to be less than the Civic, but drives just fine.
The appearance of Prius is slightly different than other cars, but not so pronounced as Insight.
I understand the Prius actual mileage is low 50's.
There is a long waiting list for new Prius's.
So today you have the 3 choices.
1. Insight: "Big daddy" of efficiency, 2 seater.
2. Civic HCH: Normal 5 passenger car, outstanding MPG.
3. Prius: Ultimate green machine, 5 passengers, somewhat less MPG but still superior to ICE cars.
Don't just blindly walk into your dealership and pay what they want. Get your best deal.
Most skeptics of Hybrids don't own one.
Ask 95% of Hybrid owners and you'll only hear praises.
That's my two cents worth.
See for yourself the REAL MILEAGE DATABASE at http://www.greenhybrid.com
Steve & family
You can certainly assume that if you wish, but there's nothing in the title that limits discussion to buying a hybrid today.
No surprises, just a very well round solid car.
A green one passed me the other week on the way to work going about 65-70.
"Nice car" I told myself.
I would have caught up and waved but with me in my Civic they probably wouldn't understand!
Backy, I stand corrected.
I didn't consider:
"What type of hybrid should I buy in 2007?"
(As such)
Thanks
S&F
Which prompts the question, when a hybrid RAV or CRV? Toyota seems to want to do the Sienna and Camry next, and I am not even sure what Honda has planned except I bet it will include MDX/Pilot.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Concerning the battery discharge of the Prius and having to be recharged 4 times. There is a little bit of Misinformation being presented here. The "deep discharge" does not apply to lead plate sulphuric acid batteries as it does to the Ni-cad batteries.
The real story as I understand it they ran the car so hard that the Prius MG1 and MG2 batteries were completely discharged and the 12 volt battery had to be used to start the car. The 12 volt battery was apparently bad, not due to deep discharge.
Now to dismiss the perpetual motion theory that keeps getting posted. A Prius has an ICE MG1 and MG2. If MG1 is charging the battery while the battery is supplying power to MG2 it has to come from somewhere. It is supplied by the ICE thus subtracting horsepower from the ICE to recharge the battery. The resulting horsepower is the net of the energy inputs minus the energy outputs less friction, heat, chemical and other conversion losses. While regerneartive battery charging is realtively free; the energy to get to speed has already been expended and converted to kinectic energy; braking converts the kinetic energy back to battery potetnial energy. However, charging the battery on the highway is not effcient becuase you have to produce the horsepower through the ICE and then there is a mechanical loss and a conversion loss (mechanical back to electrical back to chemical) to charge the batteries. The Honda IMA is actually more effiecient becuase it does not expend additional energy to charge the battery, only regenerative braking.
Towing to carry only bikes isn't really towing. That's like assuming a person with a manual shift car won't downshift to pass. Sounds like lawyer or politician talk!
So a plugged in electric car isn't green because the power to charge it isn't green. H'mm ever ever think about how much polution and non-greeness occurs in refining petroleum crude into gas and other distillates? According to that definition and way of thinking nothing is green.
Have a great day!
Auto show this weekend
And please no more table posts on the Prius driving range based on 9 gallons for the Prius. I think everyone is capable of create basic elemetary level multipication tables. It wastes a lot of white space. Printing them once was overkill; but come on the same information has been printed at least 3 or 4 times by the same individual.
The Prius classic lead the way to the Prius HSD which is leading the way to the Toyota Hybrid Highlander and the Lexus 400H. It will be interesting to see if Toyota choose to artifically limit the production like they have with the Prius. Let's see make less of the more profitable Corolla and Camry and make more Prius. Or limit the Prius and continue to make Matrix and other Corollas and Camrys at a higher profit.
Honda is also coming on strong with the VCM plus Hybrid Accord.
Hopefully the Hybrid Escape will also meet with some success.
It is optional for HSD. If the battery is low and the engine is at full throttle(37% efficiency) on the highway, why not charge the battery? It is more efficient than charging during a cold start. In Honda case, suffer from performance penalty. Best of all, HSD computer was programmed to take advantage of all beneficial situations so, you don't have to worry about it.
Dennis
There ain't no free lunch !
That little extra fuel used to charge at 37% efficiency can be used to provide 150lbs-ft torque. It would take much more fuel, even impossible for ICE to provide that kind of torque at low speed. This is where electric shines.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article- - - - - - _id=7894&page_number=1
That article explains very well using washing machine analogy. You don't wash just for a pair of sock. You would save up for a full load.
There ain't free lunch but if you don't waste your food, you will have more to eat when you are hungry.
Dennis
Mentioning "perpetual motion" has nothing to do with the hybrid discussion. So don't.
The well informed are well aware of the fact that the purpose of hybrids is to seek out efficiency opportunities.
They obviously can't make energy from nothing. But they can, and do, consume gas for the sake of a saving it in the end. So what seems like a wasteful conversion really isn't. The rapid adjustments (as often as once per second) are beneficial, even if you can't easily detect them.
JOHN
Sorry for my error:
I'm going on what I know is here in my area.
Where I bought my HCH has 3 left (Mall of Georgia), Another mall has 2 left (Gwinnett Mall) and another dealer had 3 left. (At least as of last January)
Yes, they're not making anymore but if you look in my area there are plenty.
If they're rare in your area, come-on'or and get ya one, Thar R plenty to choose!
Please let me brag, today I beat my old record for
my 45 mile commute, I did 63.4 MPG average in my HCH CVT.
My hat goes off to xcel: with his driving tips at
http://www.greenhybrid.com
I'm planning on posting some FCD pics there as well.
No kidding Wayne, you really know your stuff.
Thanks
Steve & family
C'mon, folks, get to work--there's only about six months to come up with reasons why the Accord hybrid and RX400h are no good too.
___Unless the Accord Hybrid is also $3 - $4,000 more then the regular Accord, I would wait for it? Aren’t you?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The only known "disadvantage" isn't with function, it is really only a personal preference. It's the ability to shift gears. HSD doesn't have any (yet it always performs at optimal anyway).
That is barely one.
What is the other?
Also note that the word "fundamental" means that it cannot be changed, implying something different from engine/motor/battery configurations. Right now, you are only seeing a single configuration of HSD on the road now. There will be others coming in the next few years.
JOHN
For luxury cars, like the Lexus, I think the price premium will be less of an issue. When you're buying a $45K car, an extra $2K or so isn't as much of a hit for you, and likely you have the budget to absorb it. But for the Accord or Camry it'll be critical - $2K is a huge amount for people buying in this price range. Now, if they limited the increase to, say, $500, I could see the hybrids flying off the shelf because people could envision making up the difference or more within the car's lifetime.
HSD isn't all about saving gas and offer clean emission. There are some luxury refinements that even surpass the current Lexus offering; ultra smooth ECVT, total silence electric mode, the car that can recognize you, etc.
Dennis