What type of hybrid should I buy?

midnightcowboy

So how much more would it have cost to add an 8-way adjustable seat instead of VSC, NAV, Smart Entry, an a multifunction display?

If price point is the only criteria then it seems an economical ; decontented Prius would have been offered. When you get to the 20K range as a starting point and have 7K worth of options you have lots and lots of competiton price-wise and non of it is other economy ( high miles per gallon) cars.

Toyota lost money on the classic Prius and makes very little on the current Prius.

It more like one of those loss leaders in a store to bring you into the store thinking that if this one items is such a good deal( In this case environmentally conscience , high mileage and high technology, yet economy- cloth seats, no sunroof, minimally adjustable seat) then the whole Toyota line must follow the same ideals and standards. The you walk away with a Sequoia (14 city/17 highway) becauae you thought you needed the size and space. And best of all the dealership made enouugh profit to sell another loss-leader Prius.

Cheers and good-day YMMV

MidCow

nippononly

what you perhaps don't realize:

"If price point is the only criteria then it seems an economical ; decontented Prius would have been offered."

is that the $20K Prius IS the economical decontented version, which is why package 9 costs almost $6000 and puts back in stuff that is already standard on the $20K Camry (plus adding other stuff). Those hybrid guts cost enough to have to make deep cuts to bring the car to $20K for base price. The NAV and Smart Entry you mention are not standard.

But the 2004 is definitely a better value than the "classic" Prius if only for its much larger passenger and cargo capacity.

backy

Toyota lost money on the classic Prius and makes very little on the current Prius.

This is not true. The fact that the classic Prius was a money-maker during the latter stages of its life has been well documented in the press. And how much is "very little"? This was said of the Prius by some posters even before Toyota raised the base price by $300. So take what the profit was before and add $300. Is that still "very little"? Any profit on a car in its first year of a redesign is pretty good IMO--there's the development and tooling costs to recoup.

Also, it is common in the auto industry for automakers to offer smaller, fuel-efficient cars to draw buyers into dealerships and to keep up their CAFE scores. Today's Prius buyer could be tomorrow's RX400h or Sienna hybrid buyer.

mirth

I just don't believe Toyota when they say they make money on the Prius.

nippononly

criminal for them to lie about it? I mean, they have a board of stockholders to account to just like any other corporation...

mirth

...it's only criminal if they lie about the profits of the corporation in general (or it's individual companies), not about an individual product line. Also, it's pretty easy to play games with numbers in order to make a statement that, while not exactly a lie, isn't in the same ballpark as the truth either.

boaz47

using accounting as a strategic tool. There are at least two sets of books Toyota has to report on. One is reported profit and the other is actual expenses. If you write off future gains from current expenses and discount government subsidies it can make the profit look much better to the public and the press. Sometimes the government might allow you to claim all the R&D as a tax write off. It is hard to say how a hybrid could be produced with much more expensive parts and still make a profit if on the same line you are making conventional cars, using the same assembly methods and those cars are only making a small profit because of volume. That isn't lying, as pointed out, because you only have to show net profit to the corporations board, not even the stock holders get all the information.

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usbseawolf2000

Japanese government helped Toyota out, the same way Clinton administration used our tax dollars for the 70 MPG Super Car project. The result was concept Ford Prodigy, GM Precept, and I forgot the other one.

Dennis

backy

It is hard to say how a hybrid could be produced with much more expensive parts and still make a profit if on the same line you are making conventional cars, using the same assembly methods and those cars are only making a small profit because of volume.

I've never seen numbers on the cost of a conventional ICE drivetrain, like Toyota's VVT-i 4-cylinder from the Camry, with a 4- or 5-speed automatic tranny, compared to the costs of making the HSD powertrain in the Prius--including battery. Anyone know what the difference is? After all, the HSD powertrain are the only significant mechanical difference in the cars. And with the low prices of CRTs and computer chips, it's possible the Prius' controls and "by wire" technology is actually less costly than standard mechanical or electro-mechanical controls.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___Although the following is loaded with extrapolations and goes beyond any amount of detail I have ever read on the economics of a Hybrid vs. std. ICE anywhere else, you may want to take a look at pages 111 – 117. I think the 04 Prius blew some of their conclusions out of the water (the HSD has to be much less costly then a std. automatic transmission) but if the prices of the Inverter, Power electronics, and the pack itself holds true to form, the Hybrid may never be cost effective.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/244.pdf

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

I think the 04 Prius blew some of their conclusions out of the water...

I think you are correct. According to the estimates in the study (published 10/2001), a '04 Prius should start at over $30,000 in today's dollars. But then, Toyota is a master at wringing costs out of their vehicles. Interesting that their estimate of the first battery cost is "only" $2020, dropping to $1640 in 2010.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___In regards to the battery costs, I think they might be speaking about costs to the OEM or possibly the cost in 2005 maybe?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

usbseawolf2000

"if the prices of the Inverter, Power electronics, and the pack itself holds true to form, the Hybrid may never be cost effective."

Toyota develops Inverter and APU in one unit in house. They call it Power Control Unit. According to that 2001 study, APU and Inverter should cost $3,980+$1,730=$5,710. Toyota can easily save 2k to 3k there.

Toyota Power Control Unit


HSD does not have a transmission so, subtract $1,100. Motor and generators are also manufactured in house. Toyota is saving $3,500 to $4,500 by doing almost everything in house.

Dennis

djasonw

Regardless of how Toyota amortizes their R & D it is of no concern to me. All new technology is expensive when it is first developed. When hybrids start to become more prevalent, you will see manufacturing costs decrease as well, which will allow for more profit (NOT lower prices). Once other platforms have the hybrid engine, those R & D costs will be allocated on a greater scale. Perhaps Toyota was saying they DO make money when NOT subtracting allocable R & D. Either way, it is going to be interesting to see what the next few years will bring with respect to this new technology.

usbseawolf2000

Maybe anti-hybrid would care since their argument is that hybrids will not be able to price competitively with ICE only cars. HSD R&D might have been covered by the Japanese government the same way our tax dollars went into 70MPG Super Car project in US during Clinton administration.

Since Toyota has great control of HSD, improvements and tweaking can come sooner than other car companies.

Dennis

rfruth

I saw this article and wanted to post it here, wonder what the numbers this time next year will look like. - snip - Honda Leads in Hybrids…For Now - With Toyota getting so much attention over the past few months for its remarkable second generation Prius, Honda, its chief rival for the affections of hybrid buyers, must be feeling a little left out. But today it can claim a victory, albeit a potentially fleeting one. According to R.L. Polk registration data the Civic Hybrid edged out the Prius…21,750 to 20,387 to become the best-selling hybrid in the U.S. in 2003. Hybrid sales overall were up over 25% in 2003 with total registrations of 43,435. http://www.autofieldguide.com/dp/auto/newsmonger.cfm?id=777

backy

Hope Honda basks in the glory while it lasts. With annual Prius production at 47,000 units for the U.S. and nearly every one pre-sold, and with the RX400h coming on line later this year, the Highlander hybrid in early 2005, and the Camry hybrid in (estimated) late 2005, it will be hard for Honda to keep up numbers-wise with just the Civic and Accord hybrids unless they plan on making (and selling) lots of Accord hybrids.

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tommc

Don't think the Prius was destined to be a volume seller and moneymaker. More of an opening salvo in the hybrid market. I'd say in five years, or less, there will be several offerings from Toyota in their large SUVs and we'll see a Cambry Hybrid, then the profit margins will be acceptable. The Prius, I think, is just to get people comfortable with the whole concept and to prove the reliability of the equipment, and the unusual looks gets it free advertising.

xcel

Hi All:

___And I still contend that Hybrid’s are a waste of $’s for what you receive …

___I have brought this up in the past but here is even more info on what I would buy if I had the ability to import one. The real answer lye’s with the Honda Accord using Honda’s all new iCDTi Diesel.

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/honda/2501.asp

The exact capacity is 2204cc, the peak power output is 138bhp at 4000rpm, and Honda - whose petrol engines are maximised more for ultimate power than for torque - is rather pleased at the 250lb/ft its turbo diesel produces at 2000rpm.

The saloon, by contrast, is one of the quietest, smoothest and most refined diesel-powered cars on the market. It manages the 0-62mph sprint in 9.4 seconds and goes on to a maximum of 130mph. If it hadn't been able to beat 60mpg in the extra urban economy test, it wouldn't really have been in the running, but the official figures are 61.4mpg extra urban and 52.3mpg combined. Similarly, 150g/km would have been the target for CO2 emissions, and the actual result is well below that on 143.

___Now imagine a 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi in an Insight or HCH that weighs almost half as much with its aerodynamics improved or intact. You are talking about 100 mpg using the US’ EPA estimates (not the even more generous Euro spec fuel economy estimates listed above) without a stitch of Hybrid electrics. I bet it would out accelerate the current 5-speed Insight and/or the 04 Prius given the usable torque below 2,000 RPM as well.

___Why in America do we keep having to screw around when this simple and much less expensive technology is available right now for the Accord and should be available soon for the Civic and a high mileage version of the Civic CRX-HF/VX/Insight Echo/Corolla/Camry whatever :-( LSD (LSD=low sulfur diesel) is almost here but Bush and his oil cronies will probably get in the way of that Clean Air initiative milestone as well?
 
___Here Toyota and Ford, stick this in your Prius, Highlander, RX400h, and Escape and smoke it ;-)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

stevedebi

Those engines require cleaner diesel fuel than we have here in the US...

xcel

Hi Stevedebi:

___Notice the LSD reference above. 2006/2007, even Diesel here will be the LS variety. Unless Bush and his Oil company cronies get involved of course ;-)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

stevedebi

Wayne,
Yes, I almost mentioned that the diesel is due to get cleaner, but still it isn't good enough now...

usbseawolf2000

"Now imagine a 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi in an Insight or HCH that weighs almost half as much with its aerodynamics improved or intact. You are talking about 100 mpg using the US’ EPA estimates (not the even more generous Euro spec fuel economy estimates listed above) without a stitch of Hybrid electrics. I bet it would out accelerate the current 5-speed Insight and/or the 04 Prius given the usable torque below 2,000 RPM as well."

I don't know how much better Honda iCDTi diesel engine is compared to VW diesel engine. I do know that 1.0L VW Lupo can do 0-60 mph in just 35 seconds. Yup, 35 seconds.

Dennis

xcel

Hi Usbseawolf2000:

___The iCDTi in the Accord Diesel accelerates the Accord from 0 - 62 mph in 9.4 seconds. Yes, 9.4 seconds to 62 mph, not 9.8, not 10.6, not 11.4, not 35. Expect 9.0 - 9.2 to 60 mph. The Accord is a few hundred pounds heavier then the 04 Prius yet has all the lux of a std. true and larger mid-size automobile and real world performance to boot … It is only available as a stick and is for European consumption only at this point in time :-(

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

usbseawolf2000

I thought that Accord has 2.2L engine. How does it relate to your comment of 1.0L-1.5L i-CDTi engine being able to achieve over 100mpg and out accelerate Prius and Insight? BTW, gearing could be optimized for 0-60 time. It'll be interesting to see 1/4 mile time.

Dennis

xcel

Hi Usbseawolf2000:

___After reading it again, you might understand …

Now imagine a 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi in an Insight or HCH that weighs almost half as much with its aerodynamics improved or intact …

___This is the Honda magicians at work on the diesel side of the fence. It exceeds the Euro IV emissions using LSD and it has much better power, much better economy, and will cost a heck of a lot less then a Hybrid. That is why I imagine an Insight type automobile here in the states w/ a 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi installed. 80 &#150; 100 mpg and 0 - 60 in < 10 seconds … Preferably a Formula Red Civic Si w/ leather, heated seats and mirrors, sunroof, power everything, side and side curtains, 16&#148; 5 Spoke Alloys, a loss of at least 800#&#146;s vs. the current Si … and that can be had for less then $21K after some negotiation ;-)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

usbseawolf2000

"That is why I imagine an Insight type automobile here in the states w/ a 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi installed. 80 &#150; 100 mpg and 0 - 60 in < 10 seconds "

Well, even VW Lupo 1.0 weights 2,000lbs(910kg). It is about the same as the Insight. It does 0-60 in 35 seconds. Your imagination might be a bit far out in the future probably by at least two decades. =D

Dennis

xcel

Hi Usbseawolf2000:

___Actually, the ~ 3,000 # Accord Saloon&#146;s 2.2 L iCDTi is available today and has a > 60 mpg extra-urban Euro spec fuel economy estimate already. It does have a Cd of just .26 in its sedan form which most certainly helps … This is probably equivalent to 50 mpg by the EPA&#146;s hwy estimate extrapolated. 2 Decades? No, probably more like 2 years. Honda is purchasing their 1.7 L Civic diesel from Isuzu currently (IIRC?) but it will only be a matter of time before it too gets the Honda diesel technology. I am speaking about the newly designed, high power, low NVH Honda diesel motor, not a VW Lupo&#146;s that you keep referring too.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

djasonw

Hard to imagine how popular the Prius really is. I was down in South Florida for the weekend and didn't see one on the road! My friend who LOVES my '04 Prius and wants one badly called a few dealers. If you want package 8 or 9, you'll be waiting until mid 2005!! Way to go Prius!!!!

Bought a G-tech and will be testing it out in a few cars. Will post the results next week.

Anyone out there know how expensive it is to maintain diesel vehicles? Damn those things smoke so much I always have to press recirculate while following one of those suckers! Prius... way to go man!!

txg60

I owned a 2002 TDI Golf 4 door for over 1.5 years and never had any of the smoke you referred to. The low end torque on the car is simply amazing while still averaging over 46mpg even with a full passenger load and A/C on. I would love to see that in a Prius or Insight. With the addition of an aftermarket chip you will be able to lay rubber in any gear. With the Passat 2.0TDI coming out this fall, you get comfort, power and efficieny. The technology exists now; hopefully automakers will realize that soon.

misterme

"hopefully automakers will realize that soon."

First you must make the buyers realize that.
What djasonw has described is the perception.
Decades of dirty, smokey, noisy. Nasty diesel cars that promise cleaner air.

It may be hard to sell a revamped diesel car off the new car lot, like it would be a newly revamped Vega.
(Well ok maybe that's too extreme :-)
BTW
I'm seeing Prius sometimes +2 a day here in N. Atlanta area.
Only last Jan. was lucky to see one every 2 weeks.
Thanks
Steve

djasonw

Unfortunately you can't get a TDI in New York and Califormia. Nearly one quarter of the country's population lives in those states. I believe that will change next year or 2006 (from what I've read). I'd definitely consider a TDI even with the rough idle, noise and higher maintenance. Just wondering if a chip would void the warranty. I also hope the reliability would be good as a Toyota.

txg60

Actually you can get diesels in CA...I have seen them here on the lots in SO. Cal...however I don't you believe you can get the newest generation diesels from MB or VW until 2007 when our diesel is supposed to "upgrade" to the newer kind...that means we can't get the new Tourag, 2.0 Liter Passat or E320CDI

stevedebi

Sure, you can get diesels here in California - if the gross vehicle weight is over 6000 lbs; they are not covered by the CAFE rules and are exempt from the prohibition on diesels. So go ahead and order that Excursion or F250 heavy duty...

But don't try and order diesel on a small car where the diesel would be fuel efficient.

djasonw

How foolish of our lawmakers to allow this to happen. It's so ridiculous it borders on...... well... I won't say it here. I am lucky enough to have a country house in PA that doesn't have those stupid laws. I am really thinking about getting a diesel as a second vehicle. Just hoping I can find one that has skid control, bluetooth and NAV for 30k or so. Any ideas??

ncskibum

Noise? Smoke? Rough idle?

I have a 2000 Beetle TDI. Yes, standing still it is a little noisier than a gas engine, and it does puff a little smoke. At idle, it is not that different. However, at cruising speed, it is quieter than the gas counter part, and how do you spend most of your time in a car? The majority of mine is spent moving on the road, not sitting in the driveway. I average 45 mpg around town and have hit 56 on the highway. Around town, I have a cruising distance of over 500 miles per tank and right now diesel is about 30 cents cheaper than gas. I am planning on looking at a second TDI beetle today, so that I can let my Avalanche sit until gas comes down again.

But if you really want to talk about smooth, check out the 04 Passat TDI. From inside, you can't tell the difference. From outside, it is a little noisier at the light but not cruising.

misterme

"and it does puff a little smoke"
___Like Mercades, Volvo, VW... ever have to actually drive behind one or trapped behind one at a drivethrough? Those puffs of smoke will sting your eyes shut!

"However, at cruising speed, it is quieter than the gas counter part"
___What are you comparing this to?

"I average 45 mpg around town and have hit 56 on the highway."
"I have a cruising distance of over 500 miles per tank"
___I average 58-59MPG with almost every tank in my HCH, sometimes up to +65MPG and get more than +700 miles on 13 gallons of gas.
45-56MPG is nothinng compared to some of the hybrids at greenhybrid dot com real world driver data

"I am planning on looking at a second TDI beetle today"
___Looking at the thread topic, what kind of Hybrid are you looking at: are you here just to trash or are you trying to sell them?

"But if you really want to talk about smooth, check out the 04 Passat TDI. From inside, you can't tell the difference."
___Can't tell the difference from what? I guarantee a CVT is smoother and the car is more beautiful.

djasonw

I had to laugh. My friend has numerous cars and one of them is a mid 80's Mercedes Turbo Diesel 300D (something like that). If someone is tailgaiting him, he floors it and the bellows of smoke behind is UNREAL. You quickly see the tailgater back off.

I test drove a TDI back in 1999 and the rough idle and vibrations at idle really turned me off. I sit in a lot of traffic and couldn't deal with the NVH. If there was no such thing as a hybrid, I'd be driving a TDI for sure, but now that the Prius is here it's a moot point. I am sure they've improved over the last 5 yrs. I will definitely try one out again and report back. Bear in mind, I have NOTHING against the TDI, I just prefer the Prius.

bamacar

I guess when you have to plug in your Prius, it is kinda inconvenient. Whoops, comparing a newer Diesel to an old one shows ignorance just like above. I am surprised you didn't compare it to an 18 wheeler or a farm tractor. I have also driven a new Passat TDI and came away very impressed. It was about as smooth on the road as the Passat V6 model- just wish they would bring over one with a manual. Even better, I wish that Honda would bring over the new Accord Diesel sold in Europe.

john1701a

> new Passat TDI

Does it fall under the current EPA restrictions?

5 states don't allow sales of passenger diesel vehicles at all, because they are so much more dirty than the typical gasoline passenger vehicle.

45 states only allow a small amount to be sold, also due to emissions.

Haven't you ever wondered why we haven't seen more, despite the continued improvements in diesel technology?

JOHN

djasonw

What's reall foolish is in those states you can buy a diesel Excursion. Tell me, what idiots have we elected that allows this to happen. Gotta go... time to plug in my Prius!!!

rfruth

Q - how do I spend most of my time in a car ?
A - breathing
Yep comparing a old diesel to a new one isn't realistic but neither is saying diesel fuel is cheaper than gas, it is and there is good reason for that, diesel fuel is nasty stuff, if you own a diesel you know what I mean, its nasty just sitting there and it doesn't get much better once your up to speed. Now with LSD or biodiesel we may have a whole new ballgame. Hey all I'll be out of pocket till the middle of this month (piney woods of east Texas, no internet) so don't think i'm trying to dodge the issue.

midnightcowboy

Mercedes Turbo diesel was famous for that. I think that VW TDI has overcome that. The only problems with the VW have been electrical relability and they seem to be improving on that. The other issue is that the VW TDI used a cogged timing belt to reduce noise; however, it needs to be changed fairly often. The newer belts go 100 km or about 62.5 k miles. In this case Mercedes and VW are not equal; especially comparing the M deisel behetmoths of the past.

MidCow

P.s anything turbo scared me as fas as long term relability.

midnightcowboy

Wayne,

How does the iCDTi acceleration compare to the Toyota Prius ? It appears the Prius is significantly slower.

Thanks,

MidCow

usbseawolf2000

iCDTi is an engine technology. I can be any size with any type of transmission on any size/weight of any car. iCDTi is more refined than other diesel because the torque curve is flatter(no where as flat as Prius Atkinson). Accord iCDTi drives like a gas engine cars and does not have sling-shot effect near 2,000 rpm due to major torque peak.

Dennis

moparbad

The timing belt on TDI requires replacement at 100,000 miles. 100,000 miles is not exactly frequent.

As to what hybrid is the best, I'd have to say that a hybrid that is in stock would be the best as no one seems to have a hybrid in stock. I have yet to see a 04 Prius on the road although I've test driven one when I was trying to get my father in-law to purchase one. I see several Insight and older Prius as well as many Honda Civic Hybrids. The Honda Civic Hybrid appears to be the most popular based on sightings.

Kirstie_H

A reporter is looking for residents of states other than California who drive hybrids. Please contact jfallon@edmunds.com by Wednesday, June 16, 2004 with your daytime contact info and a few lines about your hybrid.

rfruth

Okay we know where Ford & Toyota stand, Honda has their IMA, GM is going the mild route and Nissan let me guess... Is this the beta-max VCR wars all over again ? - snip - As Ford Motor Co. prepares to launch its hybrid gasoline-electric Escape SUV later this summer, top company executives said yesterday Ford will produce only "full hybrids," distinguishing their effort from other automakers planning to build "mild hybrids" using only partial hybrid technology.
http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news22/