What type of hybrid should I buy?

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  • wlblackwellpewlblackwellpe Member Posts: 6
    Just got back from a trip to Shelby, NC, 1453 mile with an average MPG of 48.5661. This included going over the mountains on I-81 & I-77 between Va and NC, and trip to Charlotte. I drove the car like any other car, no super mileage tricks like constant load, or tailgating( correction drafting). Speed was with traffic 65 to 75 mph.
    I had no problem getting on the highway, the Prius got up to speed without any problems. I got home and was not as tired as when I made the same trip in a Maxima. Went to lunch with 5 adults in the car, no one felt that the car was small or that they did not have enough room.
    Felt the side winds today is the only complaint that I had.
  • sunbyrnesunbyrne Member Posts: 210
    I also hit the Houston show tonight. No hybrid Highlander--the woman who was working the Prius stand told me they had one in Dallas, but not here. However, she added, there was a Highlander Limited on the floor, and she said there were exactly two differences--under the hood (duh), and on the dash, where the Highlander would have the same display as the Prius. She didn't know the MPG numbers, but said they were similar to the 400h, so I'm really hoping for 31/36 or even 28/33...

    I was quite impressed with the Prius; it's much bigger than I thought it would be. Fairly comfortable and functional. Seemed kind of in between the true midsize sedans (Accord, Camry, etc.) and the larger compacts (Mazda 3, Corolla).

    As midnightcowboy mentioned, the Lexus 400h was roped off, and Honda was clueless about hybrids. "Uhh, I think we make a Civic with one of those battery things in it." Gee, thanks.

    Ford had a mention of the Escape hybrid, but all the attention at Ford was on the Mustang GT and the GT40 and nobody around there had anything to say about the Escape.

    Oh, and a side comment to djasonw: Yes, the Mazda 3 and the Volvo S40 are based on the same platform. Other than the bigger 5-cyl Volvo engine, I can't figure out why the Volvo is a full $10K more than the Mazda. Volvo and Mazda were right next to each other at this show and I went back and forth a couple times and I really, really don't get it. Oh, well, the Volvo probably has VSC, it being a Volvo and all. Not sure one extra cylinder and VSC together adds up to 10K. Also, the interior ergonomics on the control console (radio/climate) in the Volvo is AWFUL. Totally senseless.

    Pricing on the Mazda 3 is really a function of the amount of stuff you get on it. You can get a base 3i sedan with A/C & ABS for $16.5K sticker, and I have found Mazda dealers more willing to go below sticker than Toyota or Honda dealers. That's not so bad.

    Now, that would be a great car to get a hybrid in it! My wife has her heart set on an '06 hybrid Highlander, though...
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    someone said the Mazda3 is PZEV - I wasn't aware of this - is it really? And speaking of Mazda, when they will have their first hybrid? Will they shirt-tail off Ford and have a hybrid Tribute by Christmas? I wouldn't mind seeing that.

    Futura (currently being renamed) is Ford's next planned hybrid, if memory serves. And they might hybridize the 500 too, although that is much more speculation than anything else. All of Ford's hybrid plans have been on hold for so long while they finished the Escape, who knows what they really are today.

    I will bet the HL hybrid and RX400H will have the same EPA figures - HL is a little taller, yes, but they will have identical powertrains! Maybe a point or two lower to account for the extra wind resistance in the HL.

    Eight months into the launch, there is still a six month waiting list for Prius (there was a little consumer piece on it on the news tonight, and that was mentioned)...there must be something about these durn hybrids that appeals to the consumer! :-)

    HCH, on the other hand, is in plentiful supply. When CR gets about the same mileage in the hybrid as in the regular version, I can understand why. I do wonder what the mileage figures will be for the Accord hybrid in the fall.

    Too bad Honda quit making Insight. I wonder what the next production gas car (not diesel) will be that gets high-60s mpg.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    Interesting that you mention 30 years of EV development. Just last weekend I stumbled on an article that I had clipped in 1972 from the IEEE Spectrum (the journal of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). The Article was promoting EV development and assumed that by 1980 there would be breakthroughs in battery technology, by 1985 EVs would be widely available and even allowed the possibility that ALL cars would be EV by 2000. Of course, the miracle battery did not materialize and 30 years of development has resulted in EVs little more practical than in 1972, owing more to solid state control technology than to magical batteries.

    Hybrid technology has far more promise since it does not depend on future science miracles to produce a practical vehicle that approaches economic reason. Its energy storage requirements are much less and shorter term and can be accommodated by the modest storage technologies presently available, albeit with some cost premium vis a vis conventional vehicles. It remains to be seen whether fuel cell vehicles will fare better than battery EVs, since they are also dependent on future science, not just in fuel cells but more daunting, a practical means to produce hydrogen in large quantities.

    For now, If I were a betting man, I'd bet on hybrids.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Shows true milage of Hybrids. Callsic Prius, New Prius, 5-speed Insight, CVT Civic Hybrid

    Also show how performance declines between full-charge and minimal charge.

    Very interesting how much the Prius drops ; don't have magazine with me but it seems like it went from 0-60 in 10.2 to 14.8

    Just be awre that when you accelrate in the Prius the electric motor (MG2) derives most of its power from the batteries and they will discharge even though the MG1 is still acting a a genrator anfd providing some power to MG2 and some power to the battery.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    Practical or impractical the goal was to develop some form of alternative vehicle. They simply decided to try EVs. Hybrids are a fine compromise if you have no intention of reaching the goal in the first place. But if I am going to use petroleum anyway is it the best method? Can lighter more fuel efficient ICE cars be manufactured that are less complicated than a two motor vehicle? I don't know but I have a suspicion that it is very possible. It would be different if this were something new but as you well know Diesel trains have used a ICE engine to provide power to an electric motor for more years than many posters in this room have been alive.

    As for now? I would have to wait and see if the new hybrids deliver the performance numbers they are promising on the drawing boards. The current ones are both too close to make a difference to me. If I wanted a Hybrid simply to have a hybrid I could toss a coin. Honda is heads Toyota is tails. Both get better fuel mileage than what I now have. Not several thousand dollars worth to justify the mileage difference but better anyway. Neither perform as well as any car I now own nor do they climb the mountain road to my house at a pace I am used to. So to me the only hope is the future and I have to see it before I'll buy it.

    The disappointing thing is the giving up on EVs in my opinion for what everyone knows is an interim motivation source. They want fuel cells in the worst way and if indeed they are successful hybrids will be simply a foot note in automotive history. But when fuel cells arrive will we be offered another slow moving vehicle that corners like a UPS truck? I think the reasoning will be that the consumers fell for it once so it is worth another try.

    As for me I would pull for synthetic fuel and a simplified light weight vehicle. We could be free from foreign oil and we wouldn't all have to learn to drive like old people. Even when we are old people. *S*
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    that has no promise of realization is quixotic and a waste of resources. An electric vehicle will not be a viable alternative to the ICE until a power source or storage medium of adequate energy & power density is developed. The most exotic of batteries have failed miserably and the future looks no better. Whether fuel cells can be developed with the requisite densities while providing reliability at reasonable cost remains to be seen, but I'll not hold my breath.

    You know that I favor smaller, lighter, more efficient cars and wish that the market would embrace that concept. But a smaller, ligther hybrid still has the potential to be more efficient than a similar ICE-only vehicle, whatever thermal cycle is used for the ICE. The only unanswered question is whether the hybrid will achieve economic viability (performance issues are a matter of design objectives). I don't share your disappointment in the "giving up" on EV's, I think that it is way overdue as reflection on the article that I mentioned and the dismal lack of EV progress suggests.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I thought I'd drop in to found out what had happened in my absence.

    Turns out it's the same old nonsense. The topic is disregarded entirely, instead just repeating posts of what had already been stated several times already along with some incorrect info and some personal slander.

    In short, there is no benefit... though non-constructive messages do prove there is a geniune fear of change.

    I'll be hanging where the productive crowd is, those that work toward the future where there will be a hybrids offering a variety of sizes & configurations.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    It's easy to lob shots from the sidelines, more difficult to engage directly. Posting messages re "there is no benefit" is of no benefit. Just today there have been several posts about different hybrid choices. There is hope. I think Yoda said something about failure, and trying, that seems appropriate but I can't think of the exact quote.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Nippononly:

    ___I have never heard that the Mazda 3 2.3 L was PZEV either? I looked on Mazda’s site and it isn’t spec’ed that way from what I read … With an 8/10 on the EPA’s Green Vehicle Guide, the 2.3 L in one is meeting ULEV-II specs but it is not an SULEV so it cannot be a PZEV. Some versions of the 2.0 might be in California but I doubt it w/ an 8/10 outside of that area using higher sulfur fuels? The 2.3 in particular is one very powerful SVT’ized 2.3 and it supposedly handles like a sled on rails ;-)

    http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-MAZDA-Mazda3-04.htm

    ___I still love the Mazda interiors the best of all however :-( The 2.0 is going into the Ford in 05 as its PZEV so you can expect a drop in performance (144 to 136 HP) but with an increase in fuel economy …

    ___Hi John1701a and welcome back. I noticed something peculiar the other day. Maybe you can give us some more detail since you mentioned you were not going to come around again? While you are looking it over, you may want to take notice of the various ranges driven as well …

    http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data09.htm = 45.8 mpg over 9,887 miles from 10/23/03 - 03/31/04.

    http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=164 = 42.4 mpg over 11,363 miles from 09/15/03 - 03/29/04.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Maybe you can give us some more detail..

    I already did (see: non-broken-in, cold-weather-only, winter-formula-gas).

    No need to repeat the same post again.

    Goodbye.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___Sounds like both automobiles are ~ in the same boat to me as well :-(

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    There is no hope.
  • kpoeppel2kpoeppel2 Member Posts: 4
    45 mpg when it was claimed to get at least 52 mpg? That's terrible. You could get a honda civic coupe hx for $6000 less that gets around 40 mpg. Yes you'd give up some space, but you'd get a car that is almost as fuel efficient for far less money.

    If the 04 prius actually got between 52 and 60 mpg like the EPA claimed, i'd be impressed. When the 04 prius was first announced, I was impressed. I even tried to defend it as being economical in comparison to certain vehicles. But when real world mpg isn't much better than some conventional vehicles, i'm quite dissapointed. Getting an extra 5 mpg for $6000 extra up front is a sham.

    If you're an environmentalist, save the $6000 and put it toward a more efficient furnace in your home, more insulation, or solar cells.

    kpoeppel
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    In the hybrid article in the May issue of Motor Trend, they quote: "expect low seven second times to 60 MPG" with the AWD versions, which have an additional electric motor for the rear wheels.

    And over 600 miles cruising range.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    "expect low seven second times to 60 MPG" :-)

    As for the Civic HX, if a compact coupe meets your needs, you can't do much better than a Civic HX. But the Prius is quite a bit roomier and has a lot more versatility than the Civic coupe. It would be more fair to compare the HX coupe to the HCH, in which case I agree it's hard to justify the extra expense of the HCH.

    FWIW, I've seen real-world fuel economy reports from Prius owners in the upper 40s to low 50s.
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    Could be real. Toyota keeps claiming "sub 8", but is hedging based on the info I can find. Low 7's is not unreasonable.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    If a Prius struggles to reach 60 MPG, I doubt a Lexus RX400h could reach it.
  • carguy1234carguy1234 Member Posts: 233
    That should have read MPH, as in low 7's 0-60. Sorry for the confusion.

    MPG should be low 30's.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Mercury Mariner SUV, also a midsized Ford hybrid sedan by 2007:
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&e=3&a- mp;a- mp;u=/nm/autos_hybrids_dc
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    hmmm the year 2007, the way Ford moves think it'll be out by 2010 ?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    the HEV supposed to debut??!! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    midnightcowboy wrote:

    "However the net horsepower is only 110 hp instead of 143 hp due to conversion losses and due to spinning the MG1 as a generator."

    Wrong. You assumed that ICE maximum 76hp and electric motor maximum 67hp meets at the same time to get 143hp. MG1 RPM behaves as a CVT between ICE:MG2 RPM ratio to merge the two max hp closer together. I do not believe they actually meet though.

    There will be a loss during conversion but the torque gained from the conversion during low speed will offset that. By looking at the results, the conversion is beneficial because Prius weights 2,900 lbs and it gets extremely high mpg in the city.

    "Anyway, the 67 hp of MG2 (50kw) can not possibly be supplied by the MG1 ( 10kw or 13.4 hp)primarily. The bulk of the MG2 power input has to come from the Prius battery."

    You are right but only in high demand situations. During regular driving, as John stated, the battery gets discharged rarely. I estimate that 04 Prius can do 0-60 acceleration 10 times in a row in order for the battery to run low. Realistically, how often do you need to drive like that?

    Regarding about Prius track running out of battery.... Who knows, maybe performance HSD needs to have more powerful MG1. The work that TRD put in will definitely go into the next HSD Sports car.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___From the C&D article, they were speaking of 10.2 seconds on a full SOC and a tad under 15 seconds with 0 SOC. I don’t know exactly how they measured the Prius’ battery pack assistance or SOC but I know the 01-03 Prius BCM attempted to take the Ni-MH to ~ 56% actual capacity. If the same is true of the 04 for batter longevity, the 04 Prius’ 9.8 - 11.2 seconds to 60 is at the best end of the scale. If the pack is heading towards a similar charge of ~ 56%, 12 + seconds to 60 is more then likely the result over time. We will need to see the lab results in a few months to make sure but 0 - 60 times are already pretty low on the scale at 100% SOC and it can only go from bad to worse.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I know 0 to 60 times and state of charge are of interest (do you hybrid owners spend much time worrying about SOC ?) but quiter roads sound good to me - snip - A vision for a more placid London with sound proof buildings, quieter roads surfaces free from potholes and ramps, no planes in the night sky and peaceful fuel cell vehicles rather than the chugging engines of diesel driven ones, was set out this week in London's ambient noise strategy.
    http://tinyurl.com/3gdy8 - Rob I like the sound of a well tuned exhaust sometimes Fruth
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    will you find the hydrogen production industry that will consume more energy than is borne by the hydrogen that it produces? Moreover, where will be the noisy, fossil fueled power plants that produce that energy? Or perhaps you forsee an expansion of nuclear generation, hardly a quiet enterprise either and not likely to win favor with the "greens". We seem to have gone full circle - there is NO free lunch!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    interview this morning with Bill Ford, he not only renewed his commitment to hybrids, but said that there will be two more hybrd Fords in the next year or two, including another SUV.

    The journalist on the NPR piece also went on to say that "by this time next year" there will be hybrid Accords AND Camrys. As well as GM models?

    And I read a separate piece last night saying Ford HEV is well and truly set to be available this summer.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Other sources put the Camry hybrid as a 2006 model, so it's possible that it could appear early in 2005 (e.g. early debut of 2003 Corolla) but the Accord is more certain.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    daysaylor it sounds like we pretty much agree on this one, how weird is that !?
    In my mind it does little good to shift the pollution to a different spot, much better to solve the problem rather than put a band-aid on it although the proposed noise barriers that also act to generate solar electricity sounds like a good compromise.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    In my view, real solutions to transportation energy consumption and pollution will have more to do with changes in transportation systems and use patterns than in the efficiency of individual vehicles.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    I read the interview. Bill Ford also said he wishes the government would tax us another 50 cents a gallon on gas to make hybrids more viable. Then use that tax to give hybrid owners a rebate of up to $3000.00 to help offset that additional entry fee. If I remember my history we tossed some tea into the harbor for taxation that only helped some of the people. I,like Jefferson,would be willing to shed some blood to revolt against that kind of taxation. Because taxing people to "force" them to think correctly is as much despotism and anything we as a people have ever faced. Bill may have qualified his remarks by saying he knows such a tax has no legs in an election year but just the thought smacks of Communism to me.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I actually think an additional gas tax of 1.50 is a great idea. I don't agree with Ford with respect to giving Hybrid buyers a rebate. I do think that we need 3.50/gallon gas to knock some sense into idiots that buy 6000 pounds of iron to commute to work in. What a waste!!!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Well, there would need to be some kind of significant new revenue to fund the kind of improvements to transportation systems that daysailer is talking about. It would also take many years to build such systems (it just took five years to build a single, short LRT line in the Twin Cities, and it still isn't in operation). Cars that average 45+ mpg are available today.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    Sure that will work. Then people will have to charge more for the food we eat. The clothes we wear and many of the other freedoms that separate us from the lesser nations. "lesser in that we are the only superpower now". We as a nation were built on individuality and the freedom to not have to be in a class structure. Rich and poor people have access to as much of the same things as possible. Charge another $1.50 a gallon and the poor can be forced into tiny little box cars like the Japanese are. But the wealthy can drive Hummers all they want. Such a class structure is not acceptable. And who in here believes they will not simply use the extra tax money for a pork barrel projects? This reasoning is always the same, some people can afford or prefer to drive a vehicle that is bigger, smaller, sleeker, or considered more practical than what others prefer and someone almost always wants the government to come up with a way to convince everyone to drive the same kind of car. Well friends that is how we got SUVs in the first place. They got the government to pass CAFE with the intent that everyone would buy econo boxes. Didn't happen so now we need the government to tax us into econo boxes? For anyone wishing to stay in office for more than one term that seems like a bad idea.

    This however was way off topic. If you are looking for a hybrid, the answer right now is wait or get a Honda or Toyota, period.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    to pass a new gas tax in California to be strictly for funding road works - the roads are a sorry mess - and it failed. Now they are talking about a bill to make hybrids legal in the HOV lane - another incentive. I think CO2 savings are important, which is half the point of the HOV lane, but I also think ol' Billy Ford just wants the federal government to foot the bill and make it easier for his company to profit on this new technology. Although I do think that somewhere under there is a person who is at least a little bit genuinely concerned about the environment.

    boaz: "Rich and poor people have access to as much of the same things as possible."

    You and I are going to have to disagree on ths one, bud. The rich and the poor have an immense chasm between them in terms of the access they have to goods and services in this country, and that abyss is widening rapidly. Are you aware just how rich the rich are in this country? Certainly a $0.50 gas tax isn't going to affect the balance very much.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I have friends who live in the UK that pay around $5.50 per gallon. Their lifestyle has not suffered as they just drive more fuel efficient cars. Bottom line, we're too wasteful and there should be no reason in this country that gas is cheaper than water, plain and simple. Granted we won't be seeing $3.50 a gallon gas, but it would be nice. If everyone drove cars that got 40 MPG, we would not have to be dependent on middle east oil. Perhaps states should assist and tack on a gas guzzler tax when people register fuel inefficient cars. Now..back on topic.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    It's not surprising that Bill Ford & Co. want hybrid credits, our government subsidizes all kind of things now but what I can't figure out is Schwarzenegger endorsing carpool lanes for HEVs that get 45 MPG or better (i.e. not the big 2.5, only Japan for now) whats going on here ? Is the Ford Futura (whatever its name will be) hybrid supposed to get the required MPG or is there something else cooking or is this a real step toward the vision of a "hydrogen highway" ?
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    Europe is doing fine? Strange last time I looked we had a higher standard of living than Europe. But they do have quite a few more diesels than we do and even have a smart car diesel that gets 80 mpg without being a hybrid. In fact I think California has a bigger economy than many European states. I hope no one here aspires to fall back to a European quality of life? That is depressing.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Two guys were talking at a gas station, one with a full-size truck and the other with a large SUV. The price of gas on the pump was $9.65 And one driver was saying to the other, " I am going to quit driving if the price ever gets to $10 a gallon".

    I don't think gas price is going to be the motivating factor for most people to go to the Prius or other high mileage alternatives.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    It isn't that we that have trucks wouldn't like better fuel mileage. My F-250 Power Stroke gets better fuel mileage than a Tundra or Titan and can haul twice as much. It is just that we love our trucks so much for all that we can do with them. Yes, my truck weighs a bunch and yes if a small car and I happen to cross bumpers I win, every time. And it isn't about accidents either because I doubt if there is any proof that trucks are in more accidents than small cars. It is about what they can do now and not losing any of that. If they come out with a Hybrid truck like the Dodge with the generator I can see truck owners going for that. But they won't if that have to give up as large a percentage of performance in Pulling and towing as hybrid car owners have to give up today. The problem is that until hybrids will do what ICE vehicles already do and as well as ICE cars do it why get a hybrid? But if the new hybrids do haul, tow and perform as well as the ICE vehicle they replace plus get better fuel mileage who will complain? Still till they get to that place you only have two choices, Honda and Toyota. Other wise look for something else.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    I thought it was GM's trucks that have the mild hybrid design with the built-in generator. And they are in production today for fleet use, later this year to the public, according to a report I read in MT. Do Dodge trucks have that design too?
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,751
    Dodge has been testing their hybrids with the Military for a year or two now. The concept truck comes with a Generator that can be used for workmen that need the electric power once on the Job site. But for now no one can get them except the government so still your choices are Honda and Toyota. But many of the people I have been off road with add generators and air compressors to their trucks for off road repairs. If we can do it it seems strange they have taken so long to offer one as an option on a dealer truck.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    The Prius is just the beginning. The technology is being tested and now it will be introduced in a crossover SUV. I definitely see a truck version within five years or less.

    RE: European lifestyle... Boaz.. when was the last time you were in Europe? Granted we do have a wonderful lifestyle here in America, but when I visited Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Holland, France, Monaco, the people seemed to have a very nice lifestyle driving their little cars around. So nice not to see those obnoxious trucks and SUVs. But those two stroke mopeds are REALLY annoying.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    going to be a hybrid Dodge Durango? What with Pilot, Highlander, etc coming on-line in the next 18 months, that might not be a bad place to start.

    I realized later today that Bill Ford was referring to the hybrid Mariner when he said there would be two hybrid SUVs next year from the Ford company. Big whoop - two IDENTICAL SMALL SUVs, the Escape and Mariner. I wonder how many they would sell if they came up with a hybrid Explorer.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Nice job on the article, Edmunds! Very comprehensive without getting into micro-detail.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    A great article. It covers everything that was discussed here and "up to the chore" board. =P A few comments though.

    "Additionally, this is the first application of Honda's VTEC Controlled Cylinder Idling System, which can close the intake and exhaust valves of up to three of the gas engine's four cylinders during deceleration. This reduces engine drag..."

    How can closing of intake and exhaust valves reduce engine drag? There will be even more pumping loss due to power loss needed to create vacuum in the cylinders. Shouldn't they be open?

    "A study done by NASA's research center in Langley, Va., indicates that one way that hybrid vehicles could be refined is to use a modified Miller-cycle engine (similar to what is used in diesel-powered vehicles) that would run on ethanol."

    04 Prius is already using Miller cycle with gasoline. Miller implemented Atkinson concept with a timing modification to an Otto cycle engine.

    Dennis
  • kornklankornklan Member Posts: 29
    I just got back from Iceland and while I was there I dropped in at a Toyota dealer. They had a 2004 Prius on display but weren't selling any till May. The car comes with a lot more equipment that Toyota offers in the US, such as a height adjustable drivers seat, rear fog lights, a backup sensor that tells you when you get to close to the car behind you when you are backing into a parking space, an EV switch which allows you to drive in electric mode up to 45 KPH and the side curtain bags all as standard. They expect to sell a lot of them. Gas in Iceland is about $4.00 plus a gallon and they do drive fuel efficient cars. They think the Prius will fit into the mix very well. The price is a lot more than in the US so if you are thinking of buying a Prius it could be a good deal and possibly a good investment. Maybe Toyota will offer some of the extras in the 2005.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    in the U.S. standard Prius content is dictated solely by three things: price point, price point, price point. It was vitally important for them in a PR sort of way to make the car exactly $20 grand again, same as the last model. And so it is, at least before the $6000 option packages...I wonder if they will ever offer moonroofs on hybrid-equipped models...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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